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  1. #1
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    Canyon Bikes, Dell of MTB revolutionizing Europe's market

    The german firm, using Dell's strategy of selling on-line and removing the distributor is quickly becoming one of the biggest brands here in Europe. I find curious that no US vendors tried something similar.

    Check out their bikes, in the price/quality relation there's probably nothing better in the whole world.

    http://www.canyon.com/_en/mountainbikes/

  2. #2
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    Ibex does the same thing, and they're a U.S. vendor.

    The big difference between buying a bike and a computer site unseen is that you need to test the fit of a bike to be sure it is suitable. You also have to decide if the suspension design is what you want- there are no firm specs as on a computer.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by @dam
    Ibex does the same thing, and they're a U.S. vendor.

    The big difference between buying a bike and a computer site unseen is that you need to test the fit of a bike to be sure it is suitable. You also have to decide if the suspension design is what you want- there are no firm specs as on a computer.
    price gaps are so huge people doesn't really care, but they ask you for your body measures to adjust stems and cranksets, and the suspension design they use is the tried and true 4bar linkage and FSR for the Torque, mags here rave about their frames. Anyway, they started like a small german vendor and now they sell to all Europe. Which other brand can offer you a 160mm enduro bike, full X.0 and XTR, DT Swiss and, Talas 36 for 3000€?

  4. #4
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    Airborne as well here...have not heard much from them lately though. I am a computer guy as well and have NO problem about buying computer stuff online (ncix.com), I even bought my last bike from the guys at Transition without even riding one....but overall people like to kick the tires as it where...

  5. #5
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    What's with all the freaking spam here latey?
    .
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmojo
    What's with all the freaking spam here latey?
    first I'm from Spain, that company is from Germany... second, 90% of people here is from the US, if you wanted to buy those bikes you would be forced to pay a 30% more plus the shipping so I don't really think Canyon has a bright future in the US. I just thought some people would be interested to know how the market is in Europe.

    If you think it carefully you'll see it's not spam at all.

  7. #7
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    Pricey?

    Quote Originally Posted by acelp11
    Check out their bikes, in the price/quality relation there's probably nothing better in the whole world.
    I don't know how much bikes sell for over the pond but 3,000 pounds (= $5,671.2) for a 4" travel FSR based bike seems pretty pricey to me, you can get most high end bikes (titus, ellsworth, intense) in the US from a full service shop for that amount. VAT is included in the pricing so that screws things up a bit though.

  8. #8
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    It was 3k Euros- not pounds. That is still almost $4000! Doesn't seem like such a deal to me. Santa Cruz and Specialized have prices not far off from that, let alone Ibex!

  9. #9
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    Actually, that is the symbol for a Euro dollar.

    Last time I looked (2002) a Euro dollar & a US dollar were close in value.

  10. #10
    No. Just No.
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    Canyon is totally going after Scott. The division of models in the line and the component specs are eerily similar. Scott is the 800lb gorilla in Europe, so it makes perfect sense for Canyon to try to offer similar product, but on a lower-cost direct model, as their differentiator to gain market traction.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigH
    Actually, that is the symbol for a Euro dollar.

    Last time I looked (2002) a Euro dollar & a US dollar were close in value.
    From Wikipedia:
    Eurodollars are deposits denominated in United States dollar at banks outside the United States, and thus are not under the jurisdiction of the Federal Reserve. Consequently, such deposits are subject to much less regulation than similar deposits within the United States, allowing for higher margins.

    Historically, such deposits were held mostly by European banks and financial institutions, and thus became known as "eurodollars". As of April 2006, China holds the largest foreign exchange reserves, much of which are denominated in US currency. Such deposits are now available in many countries worldwide, but they continue to be referred to as "eurodollars" regardless of the location.

    The term eurodollar is commonly confused in the USA with the joint European currency, the Euro.

    As for Canyon prices, they probably include VAT, which runs around 15% of the total price.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by @dam
    It was 3k Euros- not pounds. That is still almost $4000! Doesn't seem like such a deal to me. Santa Cruz and Specialized have prices not far off from that, let alone Ibex!
    yeah but that's considering the exchange rate, in the US the Canyon Torque Limited would be priced arround 3000$ and take a look at the components,


    Rear Shock Fox DHX Air 5.0
    Fork FOX 36 Talas RC2
    Rear Derailleur SRAM X.0
    Front Derailleur Deore XT E BB Assembly
    Shifters SRAM X.0 Trigger
    Brakes Avid Juicy 7 203/185
    Hubs DT Swiss 340/240
    Cassette Shimano Deore XT 11-34
    Rims DT Swiss 5.1d
    Tires Schwalbe Fat Albert 2.35
    cranks Shimano XTR Hollowtech II
    Chainrings 44/32/22
    Bottom Bracket Shimano XTR
    Stem Syntace Superforce
    Handle bar Syntace Vector Lowrider 2014
    Saddle Selle Italia SLR T1
    Seat post Syntace P6 Carbon

    I tell you that there's nothing with this price/quality relation, at least in Europe.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circlip
    Canyon is totally going after Scott. The division of models in the line and the component specs are eerily similar. Scott is the 800lb gorilla in Europe, so it makes perfect sense for Canyon to try to offer similar product, but on a lower-cost direct model, as their differentiator to gain market traction.
    I don't think so, Canyon is miles ahead of Scott in terms components and prices, and the frames are very different, Scott has no 4 bars linkages or FSR's.

    I don't understand what 800lb gorilla means but if you're suggesting that they are best sellers or something it's not true, Specialized or Trek sell a lot more here.

  14. #14
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    here in Europe this bike: http://www.canyon.com/_en/mountainbi...b=29#equipment is cheaper than a custom full XT Heckler with a Pike. It's normal they are taking over the market.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by acelp11
    here in Europe this bike: http://www.canyon.com/_en/mountainbi...b=29#equipment is cheaper than a custom full XT Heckler with a Pike. It's normal they are taking over the market.
    the canyon bikes that i have seen up close and personal looked awful. a turd with a bunch of nice parts hung on it is still a turd.

    i'd take a chaka or a CMP (other inexpensive german brands) any day over a canyon. blech.

    oh and by the way, "taking over the market"? puhleaze! I knew a lot of riders when i was living and riding europe. no decent rider with any self-respect would be caught dead on a canyon.
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  16. #16
    Now with 3 more inches!
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuffer
    a turd with a bunch of nice parts hung on it is still a turd.
    Yup, that sounds like a Dell.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuffer
    no decent rider with any self-respect would be caught dead on a canyon.


    do american mags have frame stressing devices? Canyon frames analized were among the strongest, both in the crankset zone and direction, you know how obssesive germans are when it comes to testing?

    I don't want to start a fight here but their bikes are amazing, of course everyone is entitled to an opinion, but lbs/ft of pressure don't lie.

    and they look great to me


  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by acelp11
    I don't think so, Canyon is miles ahead of Scott in terms components and prices, and the frames are very different, Scott has no 4 bars linkages or FSR's.
    Incorrect. Scott's entire Genius RC and Genuis MC lines are Horst Link designs, which is the defining feature of FSR.

  19. #19
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    No. Instead of relying on magazines, our manufacturers pay firms who specialize in FEA to do it with them. The accuracy and relevancy of the specific biketest.de tests have been rightly exposed as being suspect.
    In the old days, "testing" meant putting some people on the product and sending them off down the trail. It hasn't been that way for a long time. What happened? Everyone broke all that ultralight crap. CNC'd crapsticks, like Tune & Extralight are making now, machined out of 7075 billet, usually taking parts from the soft core. Since then, Product Liability Insurance is the biggest driving force behind every aspect of any American Bike Companies product. Are products "tested"? Yes. And not by bike companies. By testing companies, who specialize in simulating conditions properly. Frames, components, accessories, you name it. It's not unusual for the Liability insurance per part to hit 30% of the wholesale cost of the part. In those cases, the insurance company stands to make the largest amount of profit that product generates. What does this mean? To keep that percentage down, we have to prove that the products are safe. We do this by not touching the stuff ourselves. We're a bike company, not a product testing labratory. You get a specialist to do that if you want it done right. And the insurance companies want it done right. Everyone tests their products. Often, test results are garbage, due to an astronomical number of variables. The German biketest tests are typically performed on a single unit, often rushed, and often entirely inappropriate. Each of these flaws produces garbage data. This has been covered over and over. If it's not obvious how each of these flaws arise & what effect they have on the results, it can be found talking to any manufacturer, & writeups can be found all over the net. Don at Anvil has a quick synopsis on his site, off the top of my head.
    It's late, and I'm tired as hell.

    But first, Horst Lietner was a smart guy. His famed pivot is a nice, inexpensive, effective way of getting the job done. There are many ways to accomplish the job though. The manner in which the licenses to its use were yanked nearly bankrupted a host of smaller, high-end builders. I never thought I'd be glad to see Horst's lovely pivot made obsolete, but the VPP pioneered by Outland and others offers a greater range of performance options, and most importantly, freedom, for both framebuilders & riders. Sadly, we'll continue to watch as the real estate of the bike frame (to put a pivot in) is once again claimed and purchased in small chunks, until it's gone, and everyone will again find themselves pointing lawyers at each other, attempting to drive each other out of their territory. In the end they'll piss away each others paltry earnings on attourneys. Again. What a sad, strange little industry sometimes.
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  20. #20
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    Good job! my Canyon

    I have to say that Canyon makes great bikes. I have a Canyon for 4 months now and it is a perfect bike. It is a hardtail so there is les to do wrong than on a fs.
    And the price is amazing. There are few brands that can compete with this price here in europe. Maybe a Decathlon. But also Canyon has a great service, and fast delivery.

    Here is a pic of my bike. A full race ht. In this setup it cost me 2000 euro.That includes a 1000 euro F80X!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingsuperpetis
    No. Instead of relying on magazines, our manufacturers pay firms who specialize in FEA to do it with them. The accuracy and relevancy of the specific biketest.de tests have been rightly exposed as being suspect.
    In the old days, "testing" meant putting some people on the product and sending them off down the trail. It hasn't been that way for a long time. What happened? Everyone broke all that ultralight crap. CNC'd crapsticks, like Tune & Extralight are making now, machined out of 7075 billet, usually taking parts from the soft core. Since then, Product Liability Insurance is the biggest driving force behind every aspect of any American Bike Companies product. Are products "tested"? Yes. And not by bike companies. By testing companies, who specialize in simulating conditions properly. Frames, components, accessories, you name it. It's not unusual for the Liability insurance per part to hit 30% of the wholesale cost of the part. In those cases, the insurance company stands to make the largest amount of profit that product generates. What does this mean? To keep that percentage down, we have to prove that the products are safe. We do this by not touching the stuff ourselves. We're a bike company, not a product testing labratory. You get a specialist to do that if you want it done right. And the insurance companies want it done right. Everyone tests their products. Often, test results are garbage, due to an astronomical number of variables. The German biketest tests are typically performed on a single unit, often rushed, and often entirely inappropriate. Each of these flaws produces garbage data. This has been covered over and over. If it's not obvious how each of these flaws arise & what effect they have on the results, it can be found talking to any manufacturer, & writeups can be found all over the net. Don at Anvil has a quick synopsis on his site, off the top of my head.
    Well, seems to me that you want to make me believe that only americans can make good bikes and after all, most american frames are made in the same factories than the german ones. I don't really know about quality standards in the USA, but I do know germans are one of the toughest ones in the world.

    If you all want to believe Canyon makes crappy bikes I won't change that opinion, but you really have no proof, and I don't buy that "no respectable biker would be caught in a Canyon"... I know lots of people who are very happy with their products, and as I said they are quickly becoming a best seller here and that just goes to show how much a distributor or a prestigious frame brand inflate prices.

  22. #22
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    Easy trigger, easy...

    Quote Originally Posted by acelp11
    Well, seems to me that you want to make me believe that only americans can make good bikes and after all, most american frames are made in the same factories than the german ones. I don't really know about quality standards in the USA, but I do know germans are one of the toughest ones in the world.

    If you all want to believe Canyon makes crappy bikes I won't change that opinion, but you really have no proof, and I don't buy that "no respectable biker would be caught in a Canyon"... I know lots of people who are very happy with their products, and as I said they are quickly becoming a best seller here and that just goes to show how much a distributor or a prestigious frame brand inflate prices.
    First off Mr Flyingpetis was primarily talking about the sad state of American liability issues. Considering that everyone sues for anything and is typically awarded big $$$ for frivolous suits everything in the USA is overbuilt and designed for the lowest common denominator. All he said was that American items were well tested.

    Before coming in totally on the side of the Americans I am going to make a comment based on what I have learned living in Europe the last few years. For the rest of you in the States imagine always having to pay full retail, even through mail order and then tack on an additional 10% in taxes. Thats what everybody does over here - so a bike company like Canyon that can offer a 2000 Euro bike with a F80 fork that would normally cost them 1000 Euro alone and its gonna have a lot of takers. It is great spec for the money which is unusual. You have to realize that practically everything is cheaper to buy in the States.

    I have never seen a Canyon so I wont comment. I currently live in the Czech Republic and have seen lots of small brands over here that could stand shoulder to shoulder with many American ones. The fact is that there are good bikes made all over the world. And just like everywhere there are some good bikes and there are some stinkers out there as well.

    Just trying to throw a little bit of reason in this thread before it turns into an all out flame war...try to see things from both sides once in a while.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by acelp11
    I don't want to start a fight here but their bikes are amazing, of course everyone is entitled to an opinion, but lbs/ft of pressure don't lie.
    I have read the tests in the German magazines. As a person who makes a living in the field of materials testing I can tell you this: Those tests are incomplete at best, which means that the lbs/ft of pressure (sic) may not be lying, but they aren't telling the whole story either.

    Ride a Canyon if you like. It is a free planet....mostly.

    btw, as far as where the frame is made i couldnt give a rat's ass. Every bike I own was made in a factory in either Taiwan, China or Japan.
    To air is human, to dig is divine.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDtofer
    You have to realize that practically everything is cheaper to buy in the States.
    Just a quick comment here. That isn't 100% true. Shimano components are bucket-loads cheaper in Germany than the USA -even after taxes and exchange rate. I almost shat myself when i saw the price of XT hollowtech IIs here in USA. SRAM stuff is also very competitively priced in Germany. (check www.bikemailorder.de for prices) Most importantly and most obviously cool stuff like Rohloff hubs are also a lot cheaper in D.

    For whatever reason, Italian Marzocchi products are more expensive in Europe than in the states. Riddle me that one, Batman.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by acelp11
    Well, seems to me that you want to make me believe that only americans can make good bikes and after all, most american frames are made in the same factories than the german ones. I don't really know about quality standards in the USA, but I do know germans are one of the toughest ones in the world.

    If you all want to believe Canyon makes crappy bikes I won't change that opinion, but you really have no proof, and I don't buy that "no respectable biker would be caught in a Canyon"... I know lots of people who are very happy with their products, and as I said they are quickly becoming a best seller here and that just goes to show how much a distributor or a prestigious frame brand inflate prices.
    Well, then it seems wrong. I don't want to make you believe in anything. I want you to think more critically, and resist beleiving in things.

    On the subject of countries making quality bikes. That wasnt the point, and that's why I didn't talk about it. But now I will.

    Making good bikes happens all around the world. Less and less of it is it happening in the states. Once upon a time, the US had access to better materials and processes than just about anyone, and if you wanted a nice frame, it was a given that you were going to buy American. As everyone knows, this is no longer the case. So that point is out. We'll refer to that as Stupid Modern Myth #1. Now, back in reality, what we have is the opposite trend. American bike mfgs are on a rapid decline. There's a small trend to say that since Asia has now caught up quality-wise, and figured out how to build nice frames cheaply for anyone who asks, American frames were garbage all along. This is Stupid Modern Myth #2. Trend indicates people want, above all, cheap product that's "good enough". Well, our society is not set up to produce that. Our society is an expensive one, and within it, if you produce a product, it's going to reflect that in its price. When framebuilders try to be cheap, the quality suffers massively, and the product is crap compared to similar price points comeing from overseas. When they insist upon making a good product, they're priced right straight out of the market. The few manufacturers who do brave these rough waters and insist that they can remain valid as tradesmen in spite of thier fellow countrymens priorities face the reality I mentioned in the above post, which borders on existing solely to keep the insurance companies pockets lined. None of this will change unless our society changes, and one thing Americans are currently not into is change.

    As far as testing standards go, you may suprised to learn this, but countries outside of Germany have access to these standards too. Every manufacturer here seeks out every possible safety & mfg standard they can to comply with, not only to make a better product, but also to lessen the blow of the insurance premiums, so that they can hope to make more than $10 on a $3000 bike. Ansi, Snell, Din, Iso, etc... every standards organization possible is subscribed to. It is required.

    When I said "a nice bike" in my earlier post, I didn't mean everyone elses bikes are garbage. What I meant was instead of deciding you want a nice FS bike, realizing that the horst link is the finest rear end, and then finding that it's owned by a company that didn't invent it, but by way of having an awful lot of money, now owns it and has maneuvered themselves into a position that ultimately leaves you with three bikes to choose from, all in stock sizes, stock colors, all mass produced by the lowest bidder overseas. The quality is just fine. The design is just fine. But if you want something with custom geometry that's going to fit you better, or you want something with a stronger/lighter/stiffer/pinker front triangle/swingarm/strut, or you want something fillet brazed, or you want something made by a guy you'd like to support, you're out of luck. So VPP is, for the moment, the choice that restores freedom to riders and the few builders we have left duking it out.
    Nothing left to lose, & half mad.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingsuperpetis
    Well, then it seems wrong. I don't want to make you believe in anything. I want you to think more critically, and resist beleiving in things.

    On the subject of countries making quality bikes. That wasnt the point, and that's why I didn't talk about it. But now I will.

    Making good bikes happens all around the world. Less and less of it is it happening in the states. Once upon a time, the US had access to better materials and processes than just about anyone, and if you wanted a nice frame, it was a given that you were going to buy American. As everyone knows, this is no longer the case. So that point is out. We'll refer to that as Stupid Modern Myth #1. Now, back in reality, what we have is the opposite trend. American bike mfgs are on a rapid decline. There's a small trend to say that since Asia has now caught up quality-wise, and figured out how to build nice frames cheaply for anyone who asks, American frames were garbage all along. This is Stupid Modern Myth #2. Trend indicates people want, above all, cheap product that's "good enough". Well, our society is not set up to produce that. Our society is an expensive one, and within it, if you produce a product, it's going to reflect that in its price. When framebuilders try to be cheap, the quality suffers massively, and the product is crap compared to similar price points comeing from overseas. When they insist upon making a good product, they're priced right straight out of the market. The few manufacturers who do brave these rough waters and insist that they can remain valid as tradesmen in spite of thier fellow countrymens priorities face the reality I mentioned in the above post, which borders on existing solely to keep the insurance companies pockets lined. None of this will change unless our society changes, and one thing Americans are currently not into is change.

    As far as testing standards go, you may suprised to learn this, but countries outside of Germany have access to these standards too. Every manufacturer here seeks out every possible safety & mfg standard they can to comply with, not only to make a better product, but also to lessen the blow of the insurance premiums, so that they can hope to make more than $10 on a $3000 bike. Ansi, Snell, Din, Iso, etc... every standards organization possible is subscribed to. It is required.

    When I said "a nice bike" in my earlier post, I didn't mean everyone elses bikes are garbage. What I meant was instead of deciding you want a nice FS bike, realizing that the horst link is the finest rear end, and then finding that it's owned by a company that didn't invent it, but by way of having an awful lot of money, now owns it and has maneuvered themselves into a position that ultimately leaves you with three bikes to choose from, all in stock sizes, stock colors, all mass produced by the lowest bidder overseas. The quality is just fine. The design is just fine. But if you want something with custom geometry that's going to fit you better, or you want something with a stronger/lighter/stiffer/pinker front triangle/swingarm/strut, or you want something fillet brazed, or you want something made by a guy you'd like to support, you're out of luck. So VPP is, for the moment, the choice that restores freedom to riders and the few builders we have left duking it out.
    so let me get this straight. you are saying:

    1. Everyone who wants a nice frame buys American, but

    2. At the same time American frames are garbage and

    3. that the Horst link should be avoided at all costs due to its lack of technical merit?

    I shouldnt have to this, but I will:
    To air is human, to dig is divine.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuffer
    Just a quick comment here. That isn't 100% true. Shimano components are bucket-loads cheaper in Germany than the USA -even after taxes and exchange rate. I almost shat myself when i saw the price of XT hollowtech IIs here in USA. SRAM stuff is also very competitively priced in Germany. (check www.bikemailorder.de for prices) Most importantly and most obviously cool stuff like Rohloff hubs are also a lot cheaper in D.
    and bikemailorder is so expensive compared to http://www.bike-discount.de here you can find XT rear derrailleurs for 32 euros or XT crancksets for 110.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuffer
    so let me get this straight. you are saying:

    1. Everyone who wants a nice frame buys American, but

    2. At the same time American frames are garbage and

    3. that the Horst link should be avoided at all costs due to its lack of technical merit?

    I shouldnt have to this, but I will:

    Yes, that's exactly what I meant.
    Nothing left to lose, & half mad.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingsuperpetis
    Making good bikes happens all around the world. Less and less of it is it happening in the states. Once upon a time, the US had access to better materials and processes than just about anyone, and if you wanted a nice frame, it was a given that you were going to buy American. As everyone knows, this is no longer the case. So that point is out. We'll refer to that as Stupid Modern Myth #1. Now, back in reality, what we have is the opposite trend. American bike mfgs are on a rapid decline. There's a small trend to say that since Asia has now caught up quality-wise, and figured out how to build nice frames cheaply for anyone who asks, American frames were garbage all along. This is Stupid Modern Myth #2. Trend indicates people want, above all, cheap product that's "good enough". Well, our society is not set up to produce that. Our society is an expensive one, and within it, if you produce a product, it's going to reflect that in its price. When framebuilders try to be cheap, the quality suffers massively, and the product is crap compared to similar price points comeing from overseas. When they insist upon making a good product, they're priced right straight out of the market. The few manufacturers who do brave these rough waters and insist that they can remain valid as tradesmen in spite of thier fellow countrymens priorities face the reality I mentioned in the above post, which borders on existing solely to keep the insurance companies pockets lined. None of this will change unless our society changes, and one thing Americans are currently not into is change.
    In my opinion people needs to pay big bucks to feel they have a good product, the SC Heckler is produced in Taiwan, it's one of the most succesful frames ever and surely it's so cheap to produce, would people love SC so much if their frames costed the same than a Weyless? Turner would sell all those bikes if he priced them like Jamis? if Turner made his frames in Taiwan a sold them for 500$ they would be just as good, but people wouldn't pay attention to them, they would assume it's just another cheap frame from Taiwan. People (and I include myself into this category) is snob. We need a good product that looks and that's priced like a good product. A great cheap product doesn't fulfill our egos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuffer
    I have read the tests in the German magazines. As a person who makes a living in the field of materials testing I can tell you this: Those tests are incomplete at best, which means that the lbs/ft of pressure (sic) may not be lying, but they aren't telling the whole story either.

    Ride a Canyon if you like. It is a free planet....mostly.

    btw, as far as where the frame is made i couldnt give a rat's ass. Every bike I own was made in a factory in either Taiwan, China or Japan.
    I don't understand then why you say Canyon frames are crap... most probably they are made in the same factories than yours.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by acelp11
    I don't understand then why you say Canyon frames are crap.
    because I have seen them and ridden them.

    not all factories in Taiwan are equal.

    btw, the reason I refuse to shop H&S bikes is the 50€ minimum order.
    To air is human, to dig is divine.

  32. #32
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    Hi,
    I too live in Germany.
    But I own an american bike.(do I have to type the "A" of american as a capital letter?)
    Its a Heckler. And I love it.
    Before I had the Heckler I had a Kinesis cheap-o 4bar taiwan frame/bike. Rode good enough, but had no soul.

    And thats the point with Canyon. Their bikes are top notch spec-wise. But they have no soul.
    Person A comes, orders a Canyon, spends a little money and has the finest and most expensive parts (not that the most expensive parts are always best )
    There´s no way he could tune his bike, except getting a nicer frame

    BUT the cheaper Canyon models are not as good in price/performance compared to the X0 and XTR ones.
    So if cheap-o consumer gets a Deore Hardtail, kills a part, gets no Service from Canyon, goes to the LBS, the LBS sees Canyon, he goes and then he´s going to let him pay good money for the repair. Or he even refuses to repair it!

    One reason which makes me understand (although I don´t like it) the success of Canyon and other mailorderbikecompanies, is the lack of Service in Germany.
    If your product fails, companies or dealers always try to let you pay first, the distributors of all bigger american companies (ROCK SHOX, MANITOU...) SUCK noodles.
    But writing a nice email to the customer service in the USA almost always helps.

    Seems that they are interested in happy customers over there!


    greetings Znarf

    btw: Message of my confuse and strange post is: I love my Heckler, like both Germany and the USA and whatever bike you have, riding it is more fun than debating wether it´s an OK bike or not.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudpuppy
    Airborne as well here...have not heard much from them lately though. I am a computer guy as well and have NO problem about buying computer stuff online (ncix.com), I even bought my last bike from the guys at Transition without even riding one....but overall people like to kick the tires as it where...
    Airborne got bought by someone. Not sure they're even using the brand name anymore. The guys who started Airborne have now started a new company, Flyte Bicycles (www.flyte1.com) [Disclaimer: I don't work for them. I do know someone who rides their bikes and says they're great quality rides.]

    Quote Originally Posted by CraigH
    Actually, that is the symbol for a Euro dollar.

    Last time I looked (2002) a Euro dollar & a US dollar were close in value.
    No, it's the symbol for the Euro, the common currency in most of Europe now. And believe it or not, currency rates do change in 4 years. Current exchange rate is 1.27531 dollars to the Euro. Or .784125 Euros to the dollar. (www.xe.com) So, 3000 Euros = 3825.92 USD.
    Last edited by skiahh; 05-20-2006 at 04:39 PM.

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    Hello, I´m Portuguese and since 03 Mars 2006 i ride a Canyon Nerve XC7
    You can view my blog (see the signature)


    All about Canyon in a Spanish forum: http://www.foromtb.com/showthread.ph...25#post1009925
    And in a German Forum: http://www.mtb-news.de/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=124
    And... in a French Forum: http://forum.velovert.com/index.php?showtopic=51113
    To finish, in a Portuguese Forum (you have to register): http://www.forumbtt.net/index.php?topic=2602.0
    Last edited by pjfa; 05-21-2006 at 03:49 PM.

  35. #35
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    I'm considering laying down the $ for a new Canyon road bike. This started because my old man offered to give me a Campag Record groupset and wheels, so all I needed was a new frame. Canyon had far better prices for a frame than anything else I could find, and were about half the price of the equivalent Specialized. I then realised for a few hundred $ more, I can get the whole bike...

    Shipments to Switzerland are VAT free, so prices are about 10% cheaper net. The main drawback is that Canyon are quoting an 8 week lead-time - which is nearly the end of the season! Seems they have some lessons to learn from Dell.

    I don't understand the posts about the bike having no soul. Surely a bike either works or it doesn't?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SwissBuster
    The main drawback is that Canyon are quoting an 8 week lead-time - which is nearly the end of the season! Seems they have some lessons to learn from Dell.
    Cantact them first. They said to me the lead time was also 8 weeks. But I contacted them and I could get an different color within 3 weeks. After the first mail I had the bike at home in 2 weeks! Great service.

    good luck.

    Frank

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDtofer
    For the rest of you in the States imagine always having to pay full retail, even through mail order and then tack on an additional 10% in taxes.
    Except that in Germany it's actually 16% and in Austria 20%, just for example. And lots of shops don't know what a sale is, that is true.

    On the other hand, some mail order sites in Germany and elsewhere offer killer prices on Shimano, SRAM and other products: Hone cranks for 80 euros, Saint for 165, Husselfelt cranks for 60, Pike for 300, Sun Double Track wheelsets with Marz 20mm/XT hubs for 110, Continental Diesels (kevlar) for 30/set etc. I've been pleasantly surprised at the deals to be had over here.
    Täglich drei Millionen Leser der Kronenzeitung abzulehnen, ist ein Zeichen tiefster moralischer Verkommenheit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fw190
    Except that in Germany it's actually 16% and in Austria 20%, just for example. And lots of shops don't know what a sale is, that is true.
    In Portugal is 21% but i don ´t pay the diference (5%). The price you see in the website is the price you pay + 47.80€ (shipping+bikeguard)



    You can see more pictures here: http://canyon-xc7.blogspot.com/2006/03/xc7-em-casa.html

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    bike-components.de

    Quote Originally Posted by acelp11
    and bikemailorder is so expensive compared to http://www.bike-discount.de here you can find XT rear derrailleurs for 32 euros or XT crancksets for 110.
    Try bike-components.de, even better prices!!

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingsuperpetis
    No. Instead of relying on magazines, our manufacturers pay firms who specialize in FEA to do it with them. The accuracy and relevancy of the specific biketest.de tests have been rightly exposed as being suspect.
    In the old days, "testing" meant putting some people on the product and sending them off down the trail. It hasn't been that way for a long time. What happened? Everyone broke all that ultralight crap. CNC'd crapsticks, like Tune & Extralight are making now, machined out of 7075 billet, usually taking parts from the soft core. Since then, Product Liability Insurance is the biggest driving force behind every aspect of any American Bike Companies product. Are products "tested"? Yes. And not by bike companies. By testing companies, who specialize in simulating conditions properly. Frames, components, accessories, you name it. It's not unusual for the Liability insurance per part to hit 30% of the wholesale cost of the part. In those cases, the insurance company stands to make the largest amount of profit that product generates. What does this mean? To keep that percentage down, we have to prove that the products are safe. We do this by not touching the stuff ourselves. We're a bike company, not a product testing labratory. You get a specialist to do that if you want it done right. And the insurance companies want it done right. Everyone tests their products. Often, test results are garbage, due to an astronomical number of variables. The German biketest tests are typically performed on a single unit, often rushed, and often entirely inappropriate. Each of these flaws produces garbage data. This has been covered over and over. If it's not obvious how each of these flaws arise & what effect they have on the results, it can be found talking to any manufacturer, & writeups can be found all over the net. Don at Anvil has a quick synopsis on his site, off the top of my head.
    It's late, and I'm tired as hell.

    But first, Horst Lietner was a smart guy. His famed pivot is a nice, inexpensive, effective way of getting the job done. There are many ways to accomplish the job though. The manner in which the licenses to its use were yanked nearly bankrupted a host of smaller, high-end builders. I never thought I'd be glad to see Horst's lovely pivot made obsolete, but the VPP pioneered by Outland and others offers a greater range of performance options, and most importantly, freedom, for both framebuilders & riders. Sadly, we'll continue to watch as the real estate of the bike frame (to put a pivot in) is once again claimed and purchased in small chunks, until it's gone, and everyone will again find themselves pointing lawyers at each other, attempting to drive each other out of their territory. In the end they'll piss away each others paltry earnings on attourneys. Again. What a sad, strange little industry sometimes.
    hoping this will swap over to Europe very soon!

    The lawyer that lives in the original home town of Horst Leitner and rides an american VPP bike.

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    Last edited by pjfa; 06-02-2006 at 02:08 AM.

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    Coming Soon - MC 3.3 @ work

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  45. #45
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    Comissão

    Boas pjfa. Apos o forumbtt, tambem encontro aqui os teus posts.Parabens pela máquina, e pelo teu orgulho deve ser boa.Tens é que pedir 1 comissão à Canyon, só pela publicidade que tens feito. .Boas pedaladas

  46. #46
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    nice stuff pjfb.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjfa
    Hello, I´m Portuguese and since 03 Mars 2006 i ride a Canyon Nerve XC7
    You can view my blog (see the signature)
    how does it feel riding a discount mail order bike and then wearing "premium" manufacturer jerseys? i was always curious about people who put ferrari badges on their toyotas...

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by drunkle
    how does it feel riding a discount mail order bike and then wearing "premium" manufacturer jerseys? i was always curious about people who put ferrari badges on their toyotas...
    Orange


    Orange/White


    Yellow


    Orange/Grey


    Blue



    Blue whith flower


    Grey


    It´s not what you ride, it´s your atitude

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    Upgrade!!!

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  52. #52
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    Ghostrider on Canyon XC7
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...25962789863581

    See the original Ghostrider (the first minute)
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...26875680751682
    Last edited by pjfa; 06-27-2006 at 02:18 PM.

  53. #53
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    Wuddi and Mirja married!!!
    Congratulations


    Let your comment at: http://blog.bytesinmotion.com/bike/

  54. #54
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    I gotta say, Canyon has some good-looking bikes....the winners in all this is mass marketing are Shimano, Avid, Syntace, SRAM, etc....

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    With 70psi

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    Last edited by pjfa; 08-02-2006 at 06:43 PM.

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    Somehow, I'm thinking three months of you posting pictures of your Dell is quite enough.

    I mean, I'm happy that you're happy, but......three months of random bumping? And we have to sit through this because....?
    No longer member of the bike industry nor society, so don't hassle me.

  66. #66
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    As you say... i´m happy

  67. #67
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    I live in Germany and I dont think that Canyon bikes are all that. They pay the German bike magazines big bucks to paint their bikes in a great light but
    really they are very ordinary and definitely not the cheapest. My girlfriend was recently looking for an MTB and was able to get one with an almost identical
    spec to a canyon model, but for 200€ less. She also has the shop nearby for support and warranty issues.

  68. #68
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    Anybody else?

    Quote Originally Posted by pjfa
    Blue whith flower

    When I saw this pic, all I could think about was that great late '60s theme song...

    "Hey, hey, we're the Monkees..."

    I'm guessing only those around 40 years of age and American are going to get this.

    Interesting thread. Carry on.
    "Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall."
    -John Milton, Paradise Lost

  69. #69
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    Canyon -> it's a German issue

    hi,

    Canyon is a German phenomenon, they did the right thing at the right time - that's all. There's quite a number of other brands who tried the mailorder concept earlier but failed.
    And there's a lot of other brands running the same business model today.

    That kind of business works well as long as you deal directly with the enduser and stay out of the channel business and don't mess with shops, dealers and retailers.
    One of the success factors is an inexpensive logistics chain (low freight cost) and fast delivery.
    Canyon delivers inexpensively in Germany, but fails to do so in the rest of Europe, they probably haven't set up proper logistics in most other countries. As well their marketing isn't aggressive enough to compete with all their Dutch, French, Swiss etc competitors who do the same kind of business.

    Anyway, Canyon is neither a custom builder, nor a "real" manufacturer - simply an excellent marketing machine and a few designers who know the market very well.
    It's like Dell at the peak of its success: if I can't afford the real thing (e.g. an IBM), I'll go for Dell, it does the job...
    Mass market product meeting the taste and preferences of the average German rider.
    -> can't afford a Porsche 911, buy a VW Golf GTI.
    Simple as that.

    my 2cents
    oldman
    Last edited by oldman; 08-27-2006 at 12:12 AM.

  70. #70
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    my 2c

    I had a look through the canyon website, and, initally, those bikes look great. The overall design is good, HL, the geometry looks good on paper, and the weights are great. The components are almost nearly exactly what I'd dress up those kinds of bike with.

    It is when you look at the close up photos when things start to fall apart (eg. click on "technology"). The rockers, pivots, dropouts, gussets, shock mounts, anything machined/shaped, all looks really cheap. a mass producer like giant or specialized is streets in front of those canyons. anyone coming from a decent bike would have probs with it. i suppose it wouldn't bother most others. Yeah, I know, looks aren't everything, but I'm interested to see how long these things last, when they get the weights so low (unless the weights are lies), and the machining is average. or maybe they are flexy as anything. where's the cross member on the rocker? does that rocker pivot go through the seat-tube, or is there a pivot bolt each side of the seat tube?

    I'm not from North America, but I do own 2 ellsworths. i think i can feel them bending a little in the rear (unless it is just the wheels/sidewalls) if i really push the rear sideways in a corner, but the suspension still seems to work OK. how do these canyon bikes go with side/twisting forces on the rear suspension?

    oh, and the original poster really does sound like he works for canyon. the original thread seemed pretty legit, but the lengths he/she goes to defend canyon against (some unreasonable) cynics is a little suspect. so the "spam" comment might not have been all that off-track.....

    anyone tested a canyon against a turner, santa cruz etc? sorry if this has already been covered, i skipped over some of the posts.

  71. #71
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    Is black ano the only color they use?
    It seems all their bikes look the same - black ... like DELL

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  74. #74
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    I've got mine!!!!!!
    Attached Images Attached Images

  75. #75
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    i have a friend that have one , a nerve xc , and is a very good bike with fantastic components for a super competitive price . And i havent nothing with canyon. I think that his strategic of not distributors are a good point for customers . Less money for a good bike is always a good notice.

  76. #76
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    My new Canyon
    Nerve ES 9.0


    Features:
    FOX 100/120/140
    RS PEARL 3.3
    DT SWISS N´DURO
    AVID CARBON
    X.O
    THOMSON
    EASTON
    SYNTACE
    SELLE ITALIA SLR

    12.8kg

    Lots of fun

  77. #77
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    My new bike




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  80. #80
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    New Canyon Carbon Fully

    Less than 10kg
    Less than 4.000€

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  84. #84
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    @ Santiago Compostela - Galiza - Spain


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  88. #88
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    4 Canyon
    ES 6
    ES 6.0
    ES 9.0
    Torque 1


    For fun

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    Congratulations to Matthew Wilson, from Team Unibet for winning the overall classification at the Herald Sun Tour, two weeks ago.
    He must truly be an awesome and deserving winner, having being handicapped with a low-grade bike with no soul...


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    Congratulations to Matthew Wilson, from Team Unibet for winning the overall classification at the Herald Sun Tour, two weeks ago.
    He must truly be an awesome and deserving winner, having being handicapped with a low-grade bike with no soul...


  92. #92
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    Congratulations to Matthew Wilson, from Team Unibet for winning the overall classification at the Herald Sun Tour, two weeks ago.
    He must truly be an awesome and deserving winner, having being handicapped with a low-grade bike with no soul...


  93. #93
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    Congratulations to Matthew Wilson, from Team Unibet for winning the overall classification at the Herald Sun Tour, two weeks ago.
    He must truly be an awesome and deserving winner, having being handicapped with a low-grade bike with no soul...


  94. #94
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    I am new here to the forum and stumbled across this thread. I bought a Canyon back in 2001/2 when I was living in Switzerland. I rode it a lot over there, then brought it back to the States in 2003 when I moved back to San Diego. I still have it, still ride it and it's a fine bike. Mine is a hard-tail, Al frame that is pretty darn stiff. It came with a full XTR build and V-Brakes. I think I picked it up for the equivalent of $1,800 or thereabouts - been a while. Also, back then the USD was very strong vs the CHF.

    At any rate, it climbed well, took a lot of punishment and was a good XC rig. I am a liittle older now and in the process of purchasing a SoCal built FS 29er, so when that comes in the Canyon would be relegated to trips around town or maybe I'll sell it (although those prospects don't look good from the looks of this thread!). I know I pay more buying a locally built frame but I also purchase locally brewed beer (when I run out of my legendary home-brew) and locally grown food when I can. That's just how I roll, and I suspect there are others here that share that sentiment.

    My Canyon is a turn of the century XC setup, so a little endo-prone on really steep and rocky stuff. I usually end up with my rear getting buzzed by the back tire going down really hairy parts of Noble Canyon and other gnarly trails around here. But, in all fairness, it was a good build back when I bought it, or at least it was then the nicest MTB I had ever purchased at the time and it has held up well over the years.

    I don't know anything about the new Canyons, except one of my local LBS owners told me they are going to be showing up on the market here soon. It makes me suspicious about the motives of anyone posting a lot about these bikes as it could be designed to build up awareness or something pre-launch in the States.

    Quote Originally Posted by sclyde2
    I had a look through the canyon website, and, initally, those bikes look great. The overall design is good, HL, the geometry looks good on paper, and the weights are great. The components are almost nearly exactly what I'd dress up those kinds of bike with.

    It is when you look at the close up photos when things start to fall apart (eg. click on "technology"). The rockers, pivots, dropouts, gussets, shock mounts, anything machined/shaped, all looks really cheap. a mass producer like giant or specialized is streets in front of those canyons. anyone coming from a decent bike would have probs with it. i suppose it wouldn't bother most others. Yeah, I know, looks aren't everything, but I'm interested to see how long these things last, when they get the weights so low (unless the weights are lies), and the machining is average. or maybe they are flexy as anything. where's the cross member on the rocker? does that rocker pivot go through the seat-tube, or is there a pivot bolt each side of the seat tube?

    I'm not from North America, but I do own 2 ellsworths. i think i can feel them bending a little in the rear (unless it is just the wheels/sidewalls) if i really push the rear sideways in a corner, but the suspension still seems to work OK. how do these canyon bikes go with side/twisting forces on the rear suspension?

    oh, and the original poster really does sound like he works for canyon. the original thread seemed pretty legit, but the lengths he/she goes to defend canyon against (some unreasonable) cynics is a little suspect. so the "spam" comment might not have been all that off-track.....

    anyone tested a canyon against a turner, santa cruz etc? sorry if this has already been covered, i skipped over some of the posts.

  95. #95
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    A little update with some pics



























    Hope you like as much as l like to ride

    After almost 2 years with this bike, it´s time to do an upgrade.
    Now, I go for 160mm travel

  96. #96
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    I see lots of Canyons around these parts and the pricing is quite good. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned "that's what Ibex does". Not really. Ibex only sells bikes focusing on the pricepoint, nothing else. In doing so, one sacrifices a better frame for a seemingly good price point, along with better componentry when the latter is disposable, for the most part. Canyon, in contrast, has a line of high performance frames and suspensions, with high end outfitting. The latest German Bike mag had a huge catalog of theirs the size of a magazine in itself. They are moreso going after companies like Spec, Merida, Scott, and several others, while distributing direct.

    Now that I'm reminded of them, maybe I'll check into them a bit closer to see what frames or completes are available, since I'm looking to put together a rigid SS urban MTB and perhaps build a light marathon bike for my gf.

  97. #97
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    There are at least three makes with the brand name "Canyon", one is the U.S: high end, the other is swiss and the biggest is the german canyon.com (that has to label their bikes in Switzerland "Coast") - just in case nobody did mention it yet.

    They sell frames omly at a ridiculosly high price but complete bikes quite cheap online/mailorder.
    The frames are designed by Lutz Scheffer, who has been a famous frame designer here with his "Kraftwerk"/"Bergwerk" bikes. They use always the components that get the best test results in the mags. The frames dont use expensive hydroforming and thus look a little cheap compared to Trek, Lapierre e.a.
    As a mailorder company they cannot offer servicing like a bikeshop-based company, and the effectiveness of their hotline is poor.

    Edit: @ pjfa: you dont get paid for this, dont you ? ...

  98. #98
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    One thing to note- I went through the Canyon catalog that came with the German Bike magazine this issue. Much of their line is sadly using tapered steerers and headtubes. i was hoping few companies would be jumping on the bandwagon, and while Canyon is big, they are hardly going to be setting the groundwork for others to follow by doing such a thing, so for now, I'm not worried, until other companies start adopting it more and more.

    This means if I want to get a full 1.5, I can't fit it, but I can fit a 1.125 with an adapter headset on the bottom. Then if I want to get a tapered fork of a different type, tehy are non-existent aftermarket, essentially. Try bartering for a good price on one if you do!

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxfahrer
    There are at least three makes with the brand name "Canyon", one is the U.S: high end, the other is swiss and the biggest is the german canyon.com (that has to label their bikes in Switzerland "Coast") - just in case nobody did mention it yet.

    They sell frames omly at a ridiculosly high price but complete bikes quite cheap online/mailorder.
    The frames are designed by Lutz Scheffer, who has been a famous frame designer here with his "Kraftwerk"/"Bergwerk" bikes. They use always the components that get the best test results in the mags. The frames dont use expensive hydroforming and thus look a little cheap compared to Trek, Lapierre e.a.
    As a mailorder company they cannot offer servicing like a bikeshop-based company, and the effectiveness of their hotline is poor.

    Edit: @ pjfa: you dont get paid for this, dont you ? ...
    Paid for say my opinion and share the pics of my rides??? No

  100. #100
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    Being located in Switzerland, to me these bikes are a bargain. I see plenty out in the forests and Alps. Way more than I see Giants. People who have them say good things and they seem to be kitted out by following the good component reviews on MTBR ;-)

    So, actually I ordered one on Monday afternoon through the website. It's very delivery time dependant, which I put on the order form. You don't get charged till they contact you. As of now, nearly two working days later, I've heard nothing. Delivery window is slipping away, as is the chance of me completing the order. As the bike is to be a gift, and non-purchase wont ruin anything for me, I'm letting it run its course to see what happens.

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