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  1. #1
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    why no full suspension 29er?

    i was a cannondale fanboy since 1998 when i first started mountian biking, rode strictly cannondales all those years, until last year when i was just about to purchase a rize but i was curious and test rode a niner jet 9 and i was completely blown away with that bike! im now riding a niner wfo 9, and loving it...im wondering why cannondale has not jumped in with a nice 29er rush, rize, prophet or something?!? there is market, look at niner they have the carbon air, rip 9, jet 9 wfo 9, all those bikes cover every catagory...there are forks, tires and a bunch of 29er specific parts available so there is no excuse, its not a fad!i dont understand cannondale they used to always come out with some really interesting, new designs. cannondale coined the word freeride didnt they? whats wrong? why arent they innovating? i hate to say it but they seem to be stuck in rut! all they added is more travel, lighter weight, in the line.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by david8613
    there is market, look at niner they have the carbon air, rip 9, jet 9 wfo 9, all those bikes cover every catagory...there are forks, tires and a bunch of 29er specific parts available so there is no excuse, its not a fad!
    Look at Specialized. They can't build enough FS 29ers and are indicating maybe a Sept/Oct '10 delivery date if ordered this Spring. Doesn't sound like a fad to me. Sounds like a solid market to me.
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  3. #3
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    Insert flogging dead horse rant here.






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  4. #4
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    hey mendon long time, what are you riding now?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by david8613
    hey mendon long time, what are you riding now?
    The Astrix Monk was a great riding SP 29er, justgot tired of no changes, even in color, for several years. Not knocking the company or the bike, I'm just easily bored and distracted

    So now I've become a Lenz homer. Got a LunchBox last year, and finished up a Milk Money late this Fall. Gotta say, going back to a Cannondale will be tough, Devin Lenz really has it figured out, especially for a westerner. All the stuff we like from back east? High BB, check. Nice tight wheelbase for steep techy climbing? Check. Single pivot for plushness in the rock gardens and blow downs that seem to be around every corner? Check.

    Need a single pivot 29er? GO LENZ SPORT!!!!!
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith
    Insert flogging dead horse rant here.

    I can barely get my mouth around it.

  7. #7
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    exactly why should Cannondale shoot all their bullets at once? they came out with the flash this year and the new super six road bike what is to say that next year it's the scalpel 29er rather than jumping on the me too bandwagon they might wait to develop the absolute industry standard then come out with it. Sorry but some Taiwan made aluminum frame slick marketing bike Aka “Niner” is NOT really what I’d call innovative especially when I can get a Taiwan made aluminum frame 29er without the slick marketing from pricepoint.com for $200.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    exactly why should Cannondale shoot all their bullets at once? they came out with the flash this year and the new super six road bike what is to say that next year it's the scalpel 29er rather than jumping on the me too bandwagon they might wait to develop the absolute industry standard then come out with it. Sorry but some Taiwan made aluminum frame slick marketing bike Aka ďNinerĒ is NOT really what Iíd call innovative especially when I can get a Taiwan made aluminum frame 29er without the slick marketing from pricepoint.com for $200.

    i dont think you can compare a niner bike to a price point bike, c'mon totally different...how is niner slick marketing? they are doing what cannondale used to do back in the day, first to the market with the newest tech and designs, what is so slick about that? im not saying they invented the following but they helped bring to the 29er market cva suspesion linkage, tapered headtube, iscg tabs for hammerschmidt, hydro formed tubing, cable tabs for gravity dropper seatpost. did you see the aircarbon and the new 2010 jet 9 those bikes are badass. not for nothing but i believe companies like lenz and niner who have been designing 29ers for a few years now are forcing the other companies to make innovative 29er bike parts like forks, tires, handlebars...so there is no excuse for cannondale the parts are available. i dont know but i remember back in the day, when i had my first super v and there was nothing else like it, even later i had the super v freeride no one heard of freeride at the time they coined the word they even tried to patent it! jekyll had the adjustable geometry, raven it was made of carbon, prophet was a super light long travel bike which i think was the best bike they ever made imo, lefty fork need i say more. i hope cannondale has something else up there sleeve besides that computerized lefty. im just saying cannondale is so capable of much more i believe, i dont understand why they are so idle?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by david8613
    i dont think you can compare a niner bike to a price point bike, c'mon totally different...how is niner slick marketing?
    Sorry some of us just ainít buying the Niner hype. The guys that came up with exclusively designing and marketing 29Ē bikes was a stroke of genius especially since they shipped all the production overseas ran a slick marketing campaign and bikes in cool colors and the easily led sheeple ate it up, but donít tell me that they can even compare to some of the innovations that other companies have invested valuable research and design into to develop their products.

    You have to realize that the 29er thing is still mainly a north American phenomenon and still the vast majority of off road bikes are still rolling around on 26Ē wheels therefore most of the focus is still on that market. Yeah Iím one of the folks scratching my head on why Scott USA didnít beat Cannondale or Giant to the punch and kick Gary Fisher superflyís butt with a Scott Scale 29er bike.

    Same goes for why Cannondale has not offered a scalpel 29er yet? There are many questions on how and why and if I was a smart as I think I am sometimes Iíd be running my own bicycle company but Iím not so I have to eat what Iím being fed some is sugar coated over hyped crap some is sweet wholesome singletrack goodness.

    If you dig Niner then great have fun enjoy they are nice bikes hopefully one day cannondale will do something worthy to earn your business back in the meantime quit whining.

  10. #10
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    I've said it before and I'll say it again. 29ers are starting to sell well in the US and are now beyond a 'niche' market... but out of the US, they're still outsold and outdemanded by unicycles. Sure small companies like Lenz and Niner can offer a variety of big wheelers but to a big company that has a global market, 29ers are still just a drop in the ocean... and of that drop, most of the market wants hardtails, even rigids... So while some companies offer 29er FS bikes, you can't blame the ones that dont to wait for the market to expend, if it ever does. A company like Cannondale spends a bigger percentage of their ressources on research, developpement and testing than most big companies so they wont halfass a 29er FS, but the market is way too small to put all the ressources they would require to come up with a bike up to their standards IMO. This might change eventually but so far, the big wheel bug hasn't bitten a ot of people outside of the US.

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  11. #11
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    Just cause I can't resist a good horse flogging on one of my fave topics, I agree, Niner is a bunch of marketing, wrapped in a great deal of west coast style hype.

    If it weren't, they'd make their own suspension design, instead of buying one.

    However, though I agree it's a mostly North American phenomenon, to say that you can't sell them well enough to be worth while, is to ignore all the "big" companies that have jumped on said bandwagon, and can't keep up with demand. Keep thinking it's just a *local* fad, and you'd better invest in some heavy duty body armor, cause the steam roller's right on your tail.......

    That said, should Cannondale ever bring such a beast to market, and buy into the CVA/DW/blah blah blah suspension design to do it, I'm shuttering my hopes on ever owning a modern 'Dale.
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  12. #12
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    only an american fad huh? thats why fox, marzocchi, rock shox, white brothers make front shocks, and what about wtb, maxxis, schwalbe making tires for 29ers! i guess there only for the american market right? you hear everyday about 29ers entering markets that 4 years ago no one thought they could penetrate, even over seas racers are adopting 29ers... this was never meant to compare cannondale vs niner, so lets get that straight ok. not whining so no need for low blows! like i said i was a big cannondale fan boy, i remember when cannondale started the free ride thing and people thought it was a fad, not!

  13. #13
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    They Don't

    Because they are stupid!

  14. #14
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    I think part of the FS 29er problem, in general, is that most are forcing 26"-based FS designs to work in a format that has inherent issues, with mixed results.

    Cannondale could probably take the Scalpel Gen 1 and make that in a 29, easier than force-fitting the setup of the Gen 2. For an XC race-oriented bike, that would probably be sufficient travel, efficient, simple, and it's a pretty well proven design. Bonus: two water bottle cages! No Camelbak necessary!

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    The time will come when Cannondale makes a FS 29er. I can't wait for that day. I initially didn't like the Flash 29er carbon until I saw one this week at the shop. If I didn't have three 29ers, I would have one in a heartbeat. Even the alloy versions are amazing and lite. Give Cannondale one more season. My money is on a 29er version of the Rize or Scalpel. Molds for carbon cost like $650,000 a piece. Factor in four different sizes for a frame and you have a lot of money wrapped up in a single model.
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  16. #16
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    what ever happened to that bike that had a prophet front end and a jekyll rear triangle someone built up, that was very cool, if someone did that on there own, imagine what cannondale can do if they put just a little effort into such a design. did you guys follow the santa cruz tall boy bike? they had a prototype, and then a full production bike out to the public in a flash...i would be suprised if the big c has anything in the works because if cannondale was working on a full squish 29er, i think we would have some leaked pics by now, remember the prototype prophet and moto pics, they were leaked quite sometime before they were in production...and as of this moment we dont have anything to believe they are designing one...

  17. #17
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    http://www.seaotterclassic.com/

    just wait a month normally we get a sneak peak of the 2011 stuff at sea otter.

  18. #18
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    cant wait to see what cannondale has in store...

  19. #19
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    You have to admit that Cannondale's marketing hasn't been that top notch compared to some of the other manufacturers. Open up a MB Action mag, first page is a trek, turn two pages and its Specialized then Scott, Gary Fisher, Giant, Pivot etc. Sure they input the Rize or Scalpel in there somewhere, but most companies already their ad in prior. I am pretty sure C'dale will have a 29er FS in the next couple years, but I am sure there is a lot of R&D and testing that they are putting in to get it right. You have to keep in mind that the corporation just received new ownership aswell, thaty may impact funding. I think taking their time and getting it right is the way to go. You will still have the loyal, and probably many converts since they will most likely offer a FS Carbon BB30 with Left Speed Carbon which will be pretty dominate once raced! Though Santa Cruz has a jump with the Tallboy which has already been coined "Game Over" and they are doing everything right with that frame as of now. I have rode one and it is a phenominal machine, and dusted the Superfly 100 and every other 29er I threw my legs over, but thats just my opinion. I will be honest and say, I ride Santa Cruz, but I know that it will be a good thing when C'dale comes out with something like a Carbon Rize/Scalpel 29er with BB30 and Carbon Lefty..it will most likely dominate. They just have to ensure they dont skimp on their fragile suspension link mounts and downtubes.

    The other companies just have an advantage called "now" instant gratification. People want to be on them now, and they can. Companies like Pivot and Niner who are taking people want and putting it on the bikes; ie. tapered headtubes, hydroformed, thru-axels. C'dale has the same Hollowgram SL BB30 and Lefty 1.5 steer tubes. That will be a huge selling point!

  20. #20
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    Nothing wrong with 29, 27.5 or 26, but I am thinking that what really will improve a riders speed is a great set of lungs, strong legs and superior bike handling skills. Wheel size may improve (or make worse) certain aspects of certain trails but I do not see one size as the best size for all persons, conditions, etc.

    As a tall rider of a Carbon Rush I am not thinking it is wheel size that has me perform well (or not) it is the engine of the bike that determines my perfomance.

    Cannondale knows this as well and thus if 29s are (at the moment) a North American market and they are a global business, their actions are a response to that market.

    When (and if) that changes (and money can be made) I expect Cannondale will respond with a quality product.

  21. #21
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    check on the net, you will see many big name professional riders, even overseas they are switching, and winning on 29ers... if cannondale had a 29er fs, tinker probably would have rode one...im begining to think the reason cannondale doesnt make one is because of the current suspension design, it doesnt give them enough room to make a full suspension 29er, it will probably be too long and not have proper geometry. if cannondale wanted to make one they might have to change there current suspension technology and that means they would have to redesign the whole line, and we all know how long cannondale took to change from single pivot to the current modified single pivot, and hatchet drive systems, no one ever saw that coming, for many years cannodale was strictly pro single pivot. i have a funny feeling the day we see a true dual suspension 5" travel or more from cannondale is when they adopt there own version of the mini link suspension designs. that old belief that 29ers are slow, heavy, combersome, hard to control, thats all in the past these newer generation of 29ers have the geometry spot on, suspensions are very effecient with great handling and they are now even coming in respectable weights...it would be nice to hear from cannondale on this subject, are they still active on the boards?
    Last edited by david8613; 03-23-2010 at 07:50 PM.

  22. #22
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    FWIW, the niner jet 9 has been ridiculously unreliable. A guy I ride w/ has been through 3 frames and is basically getting a free niner hardtail frame as a holdover until they can figure out how to fix the jet 9 design.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin
    FWIW, the niner jet 9 has been ridiculously unreliable. A guy I ride w/ has been through 3 frames and is basically getting a free niner hardtail frame as a holdover until they can figure out how to fix the jet 9 design.

    again this thread is not a cannondale versus niner thread so lets not turn it into that...all companies have had problems in the past, cannondale has them too... scapel, gemini, raven to name a few...i had a jet and mine was recalled, niner took care of me, like any reputable company should, so the old jet problems is old news, niner went very far to take care of there customers and keep them happy, i wont go into details or post links, check the forums for yourself if you dont believe me. the new and improve jet 9 looks to be a winner but we will see only time will tell...but that is besides the point of this thread, i still want to know when is cannondale gonna come out with a bad ass 29er over 4 inches of travel? i currently ride a niner wfo 9, but i rode cannondales since 1998 and im still a cannondale fan, i just would like to see what they can come out with?

  24. #24
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    I don't think they need a 5" 29er to be successful. Right now, due to restrictions from running a bigger wheel, 100mm is working well, and selling well, and offers similar traits as larger suspension 26ers. I am scratching my head over why the goal is to get 5" out of a 29er. Unless people were going to start running 29er DH/FR rigs. I am sure it will happen eventually, but as of now, I think they are doing good things with 90-100mm even 120mm.

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    Ok back to the original question? C'dale and why not a 29er FS. I am not an expert but I am sure since the Dorel Industries take over and closing down the farm, Jumping into another phase of bikes was bad timing. I would not be surprised if there is a FS XC 29er or an All Mountain 29er offering done in the next couple of years if the trend keeps growing like it has. About the overseas bit...good luck on finding many home grown bicycles affordable to purchase in the states anymore. Even our beloved C'dales are made outside of our boarders. I have stopped purchasing Cdale products until Dorel gets a handle on how they are going to move on with the Cdale product.

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    I do like the Niner brand and there is nothing wrong with there offerings. I am very satisfied on how they handled their Jet 9 recall. Overing a second bike or even an upgraded replacement. Kudo's to Niner.

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    Giant was a little late as well, but you will see a FS 29 Anthem
    coming out soon so you can bet Cannondale will make one as well..

  28. #28
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    Thx mrbmeisen for reiterating my original post on a lot of it most likely being true about C'dale having a new owner! I am sure there is a lot of politics involved, probably a bit that affects the funding to do the research to create the product they want to push out the doors. Frame creation is an expensive process, making the material carbon weave makes it even more costly. If owner ship controls the funding, it may not be available for the direction that the company wants to go. Also, there are companies that wait and let companies trial and error stuff, and it essentially cuts a lot of research. Granted 29er development is very far along in progress. A company may feel restraint until they get it absolutely right the first time. Its hard to say, if the company doesn't open future projects and development to the public. We will all have to wait and see.

    Is it logical that C'dale still isn't in that market yet, it's up to them to determine that. Are they losing out on money because of it? My guess is yes. When they do finally introduce a product line of FS 29ers will it be good? My guess is yes. Only time will tell, the only thing that can really screw it up is the ownership. C'dale knows what they are doing when they build bikes, that is not the question, and they have been competitive or even dominate with it. So I think there are other elements involved.

  29. #29
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    cmon now cannondale! wake up! even giant has a 29er prototype now in the race! and they are winning sheeesh! what are you waiting for walmart to make a full suspension 29er! i dont think cannondale knows what they are doing anymore, nor do i think they are being competitve sorry but thats the truth! i have never seen cannondale fall so far back like this. i just wanna know why no 29er full suspension?

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    Last edited by david8613; 04-17-2010 at 01:37 AM.

  30. #30
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    At least when (if?) Cannondale releases a FS 29er, it will have a lifetime warranty for the original owner on the frame. Niner? Two years. That sealed the deal right there when I chose the Flash 29er over anything that Niner offered- if you can't stand behind your product more than two seasons, why would I want to support you?

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    cannondale is one of the last companies to offer lifetime warranty true, but i think that will change in the future imo, but for the last time! THIS IS NOT A NINER VS CANNONDALE THREAD! i just want to know why cannondale does not have a full suspension 29er, there is not even one rumor, spy shots, nothing... do you know how much money and future business they are losing? cannondale i believe had the pulse of the mountain biker, they were always first, and did it better than anyone, they always thought outside the box, made unique bikes that bikers always wanted, and people want 29ers at this moment... cannondale must give us what we want!
    Last edited by david8613; 04-17-2010 at 09:04 PM.

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    You are correct- thanks for the redirection. I feel that Cannondale has lost it's way also. They have been pursuing the SI concept with abandon- I love the Lefty, and the top of the line Fox that I have on my other bike feels like a toy compared to it, and the BB30 is great, but I can't really feel much difference than a regular BB, although I'm light, so maybe thats part of it. When I read all the hoopla about the electronic Lefty, I knew they were falling off the ship. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a carbon Scalpel 29er would be much more usable to the majority or 29er riders than an electronic Lefty. A carbon Scalpel with a carbon Lefty would probably be the "one" bike I have been searching for, great for most XC riding, commuting and even touring with a tire change. I think the change in Euro competition rules regarding 29er's will drive them towards a FS design.... hopefully.

  33. #33
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    LMAO Just wanted to subscribe to this very entertaining thread is all see what the sheep are doing AND just so everyone's clear, GIANT also offers a lifetime warranty on their frames and most other companies offer 3-5 years, 2 years is an absolute joke. Niner doesn't offer a warrant over 2 years because by then your model is obsolete/changed so much they don't have replacement parts for it. FYI David, you are the one that started comparing Niner to C'dale and stating how "innovative" they are, so stop trying to stop people from comparing them.


    Quote Originally Posted by deuxdiesel
    At least when (if?) Cannondale releases a FS 29er, it will have a lifetime warranty for the original owner on the frame. Niner? Two years. That sealed the deal right there when I chose the Flash 29er over anything that Niner offered- if you can't stand behind your product more than two seasons, why would I want to support you?
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    Come on, guys. Make this work in a 29 format and I'm on-board. It even already has bar ends for me!

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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuxdiesel
    Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a carbon Scalpel 29er would be much more usable to the majority or 29er riders than an electronic Lefty.
    You are right and worded the sentence properly, more usable to 29er riders... You are still a minority and even just a drop in the ocean outside of the USA. Euros don't use 29ers not because they are not allowed to race on them, but because in most of the XC race courses, a 26er is still the faster bike. True around here too where trails have a lot of sharp turns, almost stopping then accelerating again, stop, go, stop, go, stop go... and smaller wheels accelerate faster, are lighter... Euros will typically prefer a 200gr lighter wheelset than pretty much any advantage a 29er offers.

    If Cannondale comes out with a FS 29er, my guess would be a trail bike like the Rize before a race bike like the Scalpel.

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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuxdiesel
    You are correct- thanks for the redirection. I feel that Cannondale has lost it's way also. They have been pursuing the SI concept with abandon- I love the Lefty, and the top of the line Fox that I have on my other bike feels like a toy compared to it, and the BB30 is great, but I can't really feel much difference than a regular BB, although I'm light, so maybe thats part of it. When I read all the hoopla about the electronic Lefty, I knew they were falling off the ship. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a carbon Scalpel 29er would be much more usable to the majority or 29er riders than an electronic Lefty. A carbon Scalpel with a carbon Lefty would probably be the "one" bike I have been searching for, great for most XC riding, commuting and even touring with a tire change. I think the change in Euro competition rules regarding 29er's will drive them towards a FS design.... hopefully.

    i have to agree, the money that is being spent on research and devolopement for that electronic lefty which i bet is alot of money could be used towards developement of multiple 29ers in different formats that an average rider could buy. that electronic lefty looks to be some super high end tech that will only attract top end racers, too much money for the average mountain biker. plus if your using electronics on the front end, you should apply that tech to the rear too if you want it to work right, am i correct in thinking this? i really dont think electronics and mountian biking go together well, i can see all kinds of problems they will have with that device, thats why i dont even use cycle computers anymore, god knows how many i have broken over the years, why bother? besides what is wrong with the suspension action on a lefty, its one of the best, i have had several over the years and cannot see the need for an electronic lefty. picture this now in your head, our group is ready and all amped to go riding but we have to wait for the guy with the electronic lefty to go through all the menus playing with all the settings for his electronic lefty, wait, wait, hold on, come on man! . no one is gonna do that, i think most riders are set forget it, lets ride!
    Last edited by david8613; 04-18-2010 at 08:26 PM.

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    My fantasy bike would be a Prophet with a 160mm travel non carbon Lefty with a 29 inch front wheel, a 26 inch rear wheel with 160mm travel, a Hammerschmidt front crankset and all XT components. 2 bottle holders. An ultimate AM trail bike. I would love to see an aluminum frame on it too. The front wheel big for better steering and the back wheel small for better climbing, and yes- the same old adjustable geometry. Would this not make a great Escarpment Basher? Weight weenie? NO!

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation: david8613's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuxdiesel
    You are correct- thanks for the redirection. I feel that Cannondale has lost it's way also. They have been pursuing the SI concept with abandon- I love the Lefty, and the top of the line Fox that I have on my other bike feels like a toy compared to it, and the BB30 is great, but I can't really feel much difference than a regular BB, although I'm light, so maybe thats part of it. When I read all the hoopla about the electronic Lefty, I knew they were falling off the ship. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a carbon Scalpel 29er would be much more usable to the majority or 29er riders than an electronic Lefty. A carbon Scalpel with a carbon Lefty would probably be the "one" bike I have been searching for, great for most XC riding, commuting and even touring with a tire change. I think the change in Euro competition rules regarding 29er's will drive them towards a FS design.... hopefully.
    its already happening, focus a german bike company is making 29ers ...i see big changes on the horizon, a year or two from now 29ers will be all over the place even over seas...
    Focus 29 !!

  39. #39
    Waiting for Godot
    Reputation: OilcanRacer's Avatar
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    as 29er weights for frames and parts are dropping along with more tire options the 29er bandwagon is gaining even more speed.

    most of the racers are changing over in europe now that glue on tires for 29ers and carbon complete wheelsets in the 1100 to 1300 are appearing. the advantages that a 29er has over 26" bike is still there and the main disadvantages are going away. big wheels are faster(over all), have better traction and more comfortable.

    yes cannondale is slow to answer the call for a fs 29er, but even they will succumb to it soon.
    get to know me thru my blog
    http://oilcanracer.blogspot.com/

    spend $$ at my sponsors shop http://www.revolutionutah.com/

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