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  1. #1
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    What remains of Bedford plant

    Anyone aware of what bikes, if any, are coming out of the Bedford PA manufacturing facility?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorvati
    Anyone aware of what bikes, if any, are coming out of the Bedford PA manufacturing facility?
    For 2010, some of the CAAD 9 road bikes, and some of the Aluminum Flash hardtails, that is it. I am pretty sure that manufacturing has ended there because the 2011's are all made in Taiwan and we should see 2011's popping up in a month or so.

    Bedford will be used primarily for Warranty service.

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    Thanks for the update. I purchased my Rize at the end of last year anticipating it to be my last Cannondale knowing the end of US manufacturing was near for them. Thankfully the offerings from other domestic companies has improved at a very rapid rate. When the times comes in a few years to replace the Rize, it will be Cannondale's competition that I will be looking at.

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    The domestic manufacturers that are left are technically not Cannondale's competition. They are so small scale that any business they get from guys like you will not affect their bottom line. There are Cannondale customers that value innovation and Cannondale customers that valued the Handmade in USA aspect. The latter group is relatively small compared to the former (think Americans vs the rest of the world).

    As for bedford they are currently doing the following:

    Finishing 2010 production for alloy frames.
    Finishing assembly of 2010 bikes.
    Starting assembly of 2011 bikes.
    Building all Lefty's.
    Performing testing and qualifying all frames and components for CSG.
    Customer Service, inside sales, and tech support.
    There are other things that I am sure I am missing.

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    I'm a customer that values innovation that is built in the USA. I don't buy products to feel like I belong to some larger demographic. If I once bought a product from company A and then bought a similar product from company B, the two companies are competitors. Doesn't matter if they realize it or not.

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    I understand your logic, but to give a counter analogy...If I tried to run a 100m against Usain Bolt I would certainly be a competitor. He undoubtedly would kick my ass so bad that I would be no competition for him. Do you see what I mean by saying they are NOT Cannondale competition? Sure they make bikes (and probably good ones), but they are not in the same category of volume, technology, and innovation.

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    rhorvati: I think along the same lines as you. There are other options...I was going to buy a Rize, but went with a Titus instead. Will it affect Cannondale? not likely...Does it make me feel better?...absolutely!

    We can only hope for poetic justice that mr ronald's is the next position offshored.
    whatever...

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    Ohh yeah...I hope so. I'd love to work in Taiwan.

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    [QUOTE=bad ronald]The domestic manufacturers that are left are technically not Cannondale's competition. They are so small scale that any business they get from guys like you will not affect their bottom line. There are Cannondale customers that value innovation and Cannondale customers that valued the Handmade in USA aspect. The latter group is relatively small compared to the former (think Americans vs the rest of the world).

    BR,

    To be a devil's advoate, what about Trek? According to a source at Trek:

    For our 2010 line-up, all of our OCLV carbon bikes are produced at our factory in Waterloo, WI. These bikes include the following models:

    Top Fuel 9.8 and 9.9
    Fuel EX 9.8 and 9.9
    Remedy 9.8 and 9.9
    Elite 9.9 SSL

    However, I don't know about 2011.

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    Trek's volume allows them to keep making high end stuff (and only high end). I am sure there is a good amount of Asian made widgets in those American made frames though.

    There is a large amount of duties tied to importing of high end good into America. This is why assembly in the USA will still happen from Trek, Specialized and Cannondale. The cost of their product is too high to justify importing the whole bike. Trek's pricing is such that they can take a lower margin on high end stuff and save on import duties to make up the difference. I would still bet that they subsidize that business with low end imported product though. I don't work for Trek so don't quote me on that

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad ronald
    Ohh yeah...I hope so. I'd love to work in Taiwan.
    ...and earning the local professional wage: $8/hour

    Good luck buying one of your $5000 bikes on that salary!
    whatever...

  12. #12
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    Don't need to worry about that! I'd be working in the bike industry You can hate on Asia manufacturing all you like however it is an honest truth that 90% of everything you touch was probably made there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bad ronald
    They are so small scale that any business they get from guys like you will not affect their bottom line.
    "Guys like us?" Then why did you resurrect the Jekyll name? Why? I'll tell you why; to try to lure back some of "guys like us", that's why.

    Quote Originally Posted by bad ronald
    There are Cannondale customers that value innovation and Cannondale customers that valued the Handmade in USA aspect.
    And there are former Cannondale customers that can get BOTH innovation AND Handmade in USA elsewhere.

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    I am sure the new Cannondale bikes will be good bikes but so are pretty much all the other options.... for me not being made in the US just leveled the playing field, and without that perk I bought my fist none Cannondale.



    Quote Originally Posted by rhorvati
    I'm a customer that values innovation that is built in the USA. I don't buy products to feel like I belong to some larger demographic. If I once bought a product from company A and then bought a similar product from company B, the two companies are competitors. Doesn't matter if they realize it or not.

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    It is sad that we are giving our jobs to other countries. The wage imbalance is a temporary (10 year or less) cost advantage. Japan used to be cheap. Then Korea was the cheap place with a skilled work force. Now it's China. But China is under intense internal pressure to increase wages and build their middle class. There have been strikes and factories have been shut down. When wage increases and other costs take affect that China does not incur now (think pollution control and hazardous waste disposal), the prices will be higher, but we will be out of work because we are not putting shovels into the ground. We are not welding frames or manufacturing components. We are reducing ourselves to middlemen.

    This country used to be the manufacturing power house of the world. We are still "in the game", but we need to expand our manufacturing, especially today. Mixing labor with resources creates real wealth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglecat

    To be a devil's advoate, what about Trek? According to a source at Trek:

    For our 2010 line-up, all of our OCLV carbon bikes are produced at our factory in Waterloo, WI. These bikes include the following models:

    Top Fuel 9.8 and 9.9
    Fuel EX 9.8 and 9.9
    Remedy 9.8 and 9.9
    Elite 9.9 SSL

    However, I don't know about 2011.
    Do you have any idea how few of those bikes that they sell? That is a niche market for Trek.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Lee
    I am sure the new Cannondale bikes will be good bikes but so are pretty much all the other options.... for me not being made in the US just leveled the playing field, and without that perk I bought my fist none Cannondale.
    A few years ago when you were buying a Cannondale you used to get the feeling that you were getting something else, something special. Not anymore.

    Now I feel like I'm looking at a Specialized. The magic is gone.

    And it sucks cause I know the bikes are better than ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 69erSycip
    Do you have any idea how few of those bikes that they sell? That is a niche market for Trek.
    I can't say I know how many of these bikes they sell. I'm sure its a small part of their business when you consider how large they are, but I think they make a lot of carbon bikes for the US and export than you think. The only reason that I brought it up is that Bad Ronald said "the domestic manufacturers that are left are technically not Cannondale's competition. They are so small scale that any business they get from guys like you will not affect their bottom line." I just know that Trek is a large company and they still make high end bikes here. One of these days I will to take a tour of their factory (if they remain here) and will try to get more info.

    I have 2 Treks and 2 Cannondales in the house. I like the Treks, love the Cannondales.

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    After giving away all of our manufacturing, at some point the people in the US are going to lose the real world knowledge of how to manufacture things. We are going to lose the ability to work and create things with our own hands and will become a nation of button pushers, iPhone twiddlers, code writers, and entertainment consumers. All of our greatest innovations started with just a couple folks dickin' around with an idea in a garage or workshop. You would be amazed at how many people I know that can't even change the spark plugs in their car and don't even know or understand basic mechanical principals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bad ronald
    Don't need to worry about that! I'd be working in the bike industry You can hate on Asia manufacturing all you like however it is an honest truth that 90% of everything you touch was probably made there.
    Just because masses of cheap goods come from China doesn't make it the right choice nor even a good choice. There are hidden costs to cheap goods, and its clearly American jobs that are lost. Keep in mind it's more than the job, it's the taxes and all the consumer spending that is supported by that job which feeds into the local and national economy. American's have been sold a bill of goods stating goods from China are cheaper so that is good for the consumer. It's a race to the bottom. Wage inflation will force jobs out of China and into India, Africa or any other country where masses of unskilled cheap labor remains untapped.

    Don't even get me started on the very crafty business practices of Chinese companies. For such reasons I vote with my dollars and suggest other do so as well. One person clearly has no impact. But many people of the same mindset can, and have been sources for change.

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    Cannondale is actually just another company playing me-too, in the game of off shoring labor.

    Short news blip on the massive destruction of the US middle class. Keep in mind industrialization built the middle class. Outsourcing those jobs will also destroy it.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/the-u.s.-middle-class-is-being-wiped-out-here%27s-the-stats-to-prove-it-520657.html?tickers=^DJI,^GSPC,SPY,MCD,WMT,XRT,DIA

  22. #22
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    So you guys are willing to pay a significantly higher price for a bike that is possibly not any better than a Taiwan bike? That would be the reality in a competitive market where prices play a significant role in sales volume.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gradstdnt_99
    Cannondale is actually just another company playing me-too, in the game of off shoring labor.

    Short news blip on the massive destruction of the US middle class. Keep in mind industrialization built the middle class. Outsourcing those jobs will also destroy it.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/the-u.s.-middle-class-is-being-wiped-out-here%27s-the-stats-to-prove-it-520657.html?tickers=^DJI,^GSPC,SPY,MCD,WMT,XRT,DIA

    isnīt capitalism nice ...

    "Show your bike some love and it will show the love back."
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by hssp
    So you guys are willing to pay a significantly higher price for a bike that is possibly not any better than a Taiwan bike? That would be the reality in a competitive market where prices play a significant role in sales volume.
    thatīs the point ...
    do you really think a bike manufacturer is not able to produce a cheap frame
    in USA or euope ?
    it is possible (!) but the $ or Ä have to ...

    "Show your bike some love and it will show the love back."
    Eric, niner bikes

    the most important vehicle is a 29er bicycle

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmk
    thatīs the point ...
    do you really think a bike manufacturer is not able to produce a cheap frame
    in USA or euope ?
    it is possible (!) but the $ or Ä have to ...
    ....have to .... find qualified labor who would weld aluminium frames for 5$ an hour in the USA.


    It's mostly us who started this economical pattern with the over-consuming habits.
    The pendulum is coming back and is slapping us really hard in the face.
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by fokof
    ....have to .... find qualified labor who would weld aluminium frames for 5$ an hour in the USA.


    It's mostly us who started this economical pattern with the over-consuming habits.
    The pendulum is coming back and is slapping us really hard in the face.
    yes 100% agree
    but
    sorry if i ...
    i was in june in NYC, im formerly from europe and what i saw there, please donīt get me wrong, is crazy
    i love the city
    but no economical or energy-efficiency concerns ...
    and in europe nowadays too

    "Show your bike some love and it will show the love back."
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    the most important vehicle is a 29er bicycle

  27. #27
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    I for one, can't wait for the day when gas is so expensive, that buying stuff from overseas, represents a loss over domestic production.

    That, and listening to all the whining idiots who bought F 350's just because, after gas finally dropped under $4 last year

    Labor may be cheap over there, but it's cheap fuel that keeps the Walmart mentality afloat.

    Bring on $6 a gallon gas, I'm ready, and Walmart needs to die.....

    Poor fellas http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...s_walmart.html
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith
    Labor may be cheap over there, but it's cheap fuel that keeps the Walmart mentality afloat.

    Bring on $6 a gallon gas, I'm ready, and Walmart needs to die.....
    +1
    "There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over" -FZ

  29. #29
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    $6 a gallon is still damn cheap!

    I actually think low gas prices has contributed to the death of GM. Fuel drinkers around the US (like the F350s) do not actually represent a drive to more develop fuel efficient, smaller cars for the US car manufacturers. It is like people say - their dinosaur technology only serves to pump up the gas sales.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by hssp
    It is like people say - their dinosaur technology only serves to pump up the gas sales.
    My pet cause is the Toyota HiLux.

    A Tacoma by any other name, and available in diesel.

    Imagine, a midsized, reliable 4X4 sold in the US that got 35 MPG. Nah, it'd never fly here.

    Toyota says that the market won't support it here, yet they sell like hotcakes in every country but our own.

    Anyone who can tell me with a straight face that this vehicle wouldn't be a hot commodity amongst the tens of thousands of drivers who love their Tacomas, is smoking something really good.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith
    My pet cause is the Toyota HiLux.

    A Tacoma by any other name, and available in diesel.

    Imagine, a midsized, reliable 4X4 sold in the US that got 35 MPG. Nah, it'd never fly here.

    Toyota says that the market won't support it here, yet they sell like hotcakes in every country but our own.

    Anyone who can tell me with a straight face that this vehicle wouldn't be a hot commodity amongst the tens of thousands of drivers who love their Tacomas, is smoking something really good.
    My pet cause is the Honda Element, a cheap ,reliable mid-size 4x4 that gets 30 mpg and is eminently adaptable to anything. I have had small motorcycles, lawnmowers , snowblowers and assorted flat packs in it, it regularly carries two bikes strapped in to the sides - a Rize and a Six - with no need to remove wheels and still leaves cargo capacity available. I've had it for six years now and I have never found anything that could replace its flexibility

    My wife loves it and her daily driver is a 2008 Porsche Targa 4

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    I can get 40 mpg out of my Saturn sedan. It seems like Saturn should still be around. They are simple and inexpensive to maintain and good on gas. They may not get you laid, but hey....

  33. #33
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    I just wanted to point out something, China and Taiwan are NOT the same, well Taiwan thinks so at least

    Taiwan is a democracy, China, well they are the Chicoms

    The two are not interchangeable.

    As in any discussion there are two sides to each coin, why have so many manufacturing jobs left the US? Some blame, certainly not ALL blame, can be placed on some, SOME unions, look at the UAW, their wages, benefits, and pensions are way out of control, and I'm not going to give the companies a pass either, they agreed to these outrageous contracts.

    Next lets look at the dumbing down of the workforce, I remember reading last year an article about a company that was manufacturing aircraft parts or some such thing, and they were begging for employees, they needed people with at least grade nine level math, and where having a really tough time finding applicants to fill the jobs. Sure these kids knew how to put a condom on a banana and had lots of self esteem, but they could not do grade nine level math, and these kids were high school grads

    It is not a simple black and white issue, but it sure is a shame that Cannondales are no longer made in the USA.
    To Canadians Hockey is not just a game, it's OUR Game.....!

    Go CANADA!

  34. #34
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    I found the article I was talking about............

    >> LINK <<
    To Canadians Hockey is not just a game, it's OUR Game.....!

    Go CANADA!

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stu In Tokyo
    Next lets look at the dumbing down of the workforce
    All good points, well said Stu.

    Ever read "What's the matter with Kansas"?

    Political in it's direction, but the point about the dumbing down of our populace for the enrichment of the few, shines through, very good book......
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith
    All good points, well said Stu.

    Ever read "What's the matter with Kansas"?

    Political in it's direction, but the point about the dumbing down of our populace for the enrichment of the few, shines through, very good book......
    No I have not, I'll put it on my list of books to get and read, thanks!
    To Canadians Hockey is not just a game, it's OUR Game.....!

    Go CANADA!

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    Yes, I am willing to pay more for an item that is engineered and manufacture in the US of A. Cannondale's old tagline of "Handmade in the USA" used to be on every bike and was a reminder for the reason this brand commanded a premium. It was a good brand with a solid reputation. American flags on every bike. Now the American flags are gone and the logo quietly absent from their frames but somehow the bikes are still commanding the same premium. Offshoring labor to low cost countries is an easy way for management to extract more value out of a brand before consumers figure they are the same cheap pimped imported goods as the rest of the competition racing to the bottom of the heap.

    I honestly believe that import duties of some form should be in place. It's far too easy for companies to outsource work to other countries with no motivation to keep them here. Try having your goods imported into China and see if there is a level playing field. Free trade isn't free by any mean.

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    If I get a good run from my Rize, it will be upgraded with a later model when the time comes. It means SFA to me whether a bike is made in Taiwan or USA unless it's proven that the Taiwanese Cannondales are an inferior product, at which I will then swap brands.

    Oh, and I only drive diesel 4wd's here which is great, had Nissan Patrols, Toyota Surfs, and now an 80 Series Landcruiser

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by kavika
    Oh, and I only drive diesel 4wd's here which is great, had Nissan Patrols, Toyota Surfs, and now an 80 Series Landcruiser
    I hate you in the nicest of ways.....

    Pics please
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith
    I for one, can't wait for the day when gas is so expensive, that buying stuff from overseas, represents a loss over domestic production.

    That, and listening to all the whining idiots who bought F 350's just because, after gas finally dropped under $4 last year

    Labor may be cheap over there, but it's cheap fuel that keeps the Walmart mentality afloat.

    Bring on $6 a gallon gas, I'm ready, and Walmart needs to die.....
    Iím a Texan and I drive an F350 diesel dually my wife works in the oil and gas industry and I ride bikes this mentality of $6 a gallon gas will get folks on bikes is ridiculous it will hurt the poor more than anyone and itís the damn taxes that the feds put on gasoline/diesel thatís the crime not the oil companies.

    By the way these silly outdated UNIONS is what drove jobs outta the United States think about that next time your crying about jobs going overseas.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    Iím a Texan and I drive an F350 diesel dually my wife works in the oil and gas industry and I ride bikes this mentality of $6 a gallon gas will get folks on bikes is ridiculous it will hurt the poor more than anyone and itís the damn taxes that the feds put on gasoline/diesel thatís the crime not the oil companies.

    By the way these silly outdated UNIONS is what drove jobs outta the United States think about that next time your crying about jobs going overseas.
    I have to agree with you on most of that, I live in Tokyo Japan, we are currently paying about $6.75 US for a US gallon, and trust me, there has NOT been an increase of bicycle use
    To Canadians Hockey is not just a game, it's OUR Game.....!

    Go CANADA!

  42. #42
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    This is my current daily driver (on its road tyres) 1990 80 series


    My previous Nissan Safari (Patrol) which I sold to buy the LWB Cruiser


    And same Safari next to previous model I owned


    Sooooo many to choose from here, as they are Japanese Imports

  43. #43
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    Hal and Stu, I'm not so naive that I think expensive gas would make everyone flock to bikes. That's just silliness

    Folks who don't ride now, and won't be convinced to do so, likely would need to lose their license to finally discover the pleasure of fuel free two wheeled transport!

    It would however encourage folks who honestly have zero need to a 10 to 12 MPG street legal, armored personnel carrier with 3 gazzillion pounds of payload capacity to either consider more efficient conveyance, or, at a minimum, get them thinking about consolidating trips, car pooling, using public transit where practical, etc.

    Moreover, by gas getting expensive, the ability to source cheap goods from far off lands and have it be really profitable, would likely become a distant memory, at which point yes, local business would once again, be competitive and even desirable.

    As for hurting the poor, not feeling the pain. There are thousands of used, old, cheap Hondas, Toyotas, VW's etc, all getting mid 20's to low 30's without even trying hard. If some dirt poor redneck somewhere feels it's his god given right to drive a 1979 F350 and get 8 MPG, then he can just deal with it This is America after all, we have freedom of choice in our destiny, well, Stu's in Japan, I'm guessing the fleet MPG average standard's a bit higher over there, no?

    It hurts to change, but folks needing to rework their thought process, is not a convincing enough argument to keep consuming oil like it's going out of style. I miss my 16MPG Tacoma like crazy, but getting mid 40's in my VW TDI and filling up like, every three weeks, makes it hurt a bit less.
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by kavika
    This is my current daily driver (on its road tyres) 1990 80 series. Sooooo many to choose from here, as they are Japanese Imports
    You suck.

    Sweet trucks.

    It drives me crazy that so many nations get these vehicles, and yet, here? They seem to think they won't sell.

    I have yet to meet a truck guy who would point blank say, no, I don't want a more efficient truck, I like getting crappy mileage, you can't make me change.....

    I'll bet even Hal would get excited if he could double his mileage and still drive the truck he likes.

    I've mentioned to a few I've struck up conversations with, that they could own a 4x4 diesel Tacoma, and get mid 30's easily, and they just get excited, then tell them they can't get them here, and watch them deflate.

    Where's here? What fortunate nation are you part of?
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  45. #45
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    Made in USA??

    I have a Cannondale F2 29er and I love the bike. It does proudly say "Handmade in the USA" on it! I bought it partially for the reputation of the Cannondale and partly becuase it was made in the USA.

    I know the entire drive train was built in TW/China, etc. as are ALL big name drivetrain parts (Shimano,SRAM, etc.). I promptly put a King hub on the rear (after blowing out 5 free hub bodies in 16 months!) and had a rear wheel professionally built by a local hand builder. The rear is a 36 hole tied and soldered,.. a real work of art and SOLID!

    I'm looking at my next bike possibly coming from Pivot (mach 429) and adapting my Lefty to it if I can get the Lefty to behave (a diff story) .

    We live in a different economy than our ancestors in that global trade lines force us to think about things locally and then globally. Taking bikes for example, the frames are built in the USA, the drivetrains in SE Asia and other parts from other places around the world. Sales of those parts keep people employed and buying other stuff from others and so on, until the entire economy of the world shrinks or grows based on shifts in consumer confidence, government interactions, global monetory policy,.. etc.

    You can try to keep the money in the hands of Americans as long as possible. Unless you're sure that company ONLY does business with other American companies, then your $$ will end up offshore at one time or another. That's the bottom line,..

    America needs to get on board and create less expensive labor to get back in the game,..or we're dead.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by 29erBob
    America needs to get on board and create less expensive labor to get back in the game,..or we're dead.
    Or put additional import duties/taxes on foreign made goods....Other countries do so to keep their economy afloat.....
    It's funny how oranges are constantly compared to apples or vice versa: "Your drive train is made in Asia, your TV is and so is your car"...
    I don't have a problem with companies/goods that originate in Taiwan, Japan etc.
    What I have an issue with is outsourcing, period.
    Most of the arguments I read so far are always suggesting that buying a TOYOTA truck is the same as a made in Taiwan or Japan cannondale....
    It's not as the TOYOTA truck is not an american product which originated in one country and then was made in Asia creating a loss of jobs for local workers and a bigger profit for the manufacturer!
    "Common sense isn't always that common!"
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  47. #47
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    i live in houston texas the most bike un-friendly city in the universe it just was not designed for two wheel commuting neither are a lot of american cities.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    i live in houston texas the most bike un-friendly city in the universe it just was not designed for two wheel commuting neither are a lot of american cities.
    This city is a prime example of the American attitude: you cannot go anywhere without your car. Some of my colleagues have been stopped by the police walking home from the bar, as in Norway, we actually do not drink and drive because it is dangerous. The police then drove them back to their car for them to drive home under the influence of alcohol. When I was in Houston, I barely saw any public transportation, no taxis or any other alternative way of travel but the big trucks and all. If gas prices make people think twice about driving their cars, a natural result will be a more bike and pedestrian friendly community - over time...

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by hssp
    If gas prices make people think twice about driving their cars, a natural result will be a more bike and pedestrian friendly community - over time...
    we have a thing in houston call humidity heck today it's only 88% feels like a cold front came through.

    http://www.wunderground.com/US/TX/Houston.html

    try riding to work in 90%+ humidity on a daily basis...

    sorry cycling is a hobby for most of us not a daily commute i'll keep my F350

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    sorry cycling is a hobby for most of us not a daily commute i'll keep my F350
    You're obviously a smart guy (meant sincerely, not snarkily), why are you trying so hard to evade my point? It's not about making cycling more predominant, it's about forcing the market to create vehicles that go farther, with less. For the life of me, I can't understand how or why we equate macho, coolness, strength, Americanness whatever, with spending more on fuel, than is really necessary, it just baffles me.

    Would the average fuel sucking driver turn on their AC in the home, then open all the windows? Doubt it. Would they turn on the heat inthe winter, and leave those windows open? Don't think so. Chances are, when we go to buy heating or cooling options, one of the biggest factors driving the decision is what costs the LEAST to run. So why do we view our cars so differently?

    Why would anyone willingly choose, (given the option) of getting 270 miles to the tank (my Tacoma), vs 525 miles to the tank, (my TDI)? Currently, because TDI's and the like are dorky little cars that some people either can't use for practical reasons, or feel emasculated while behind the wheel.

    If gas prices hit the roof, American consumers will be screaming for the car companies to get their fuel economy butts in gear. I just can't wait for it to happen.

    I want my 35MPG Tacoma dammit.......
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdalemaniac
    What I have an issue with is outsourcing, period.
    Well,.. examine that on a global scale. Take a simple example,.. say the Shimano line of drivetrain parts. IF and I do mean IF those parts were designed,developed and manufacured in the USA,.. AND there was a comparable part from SE Asia say SRAM and the SRAM parts were 30% cheaper so the US Govt. put a tarriff on SRAM parts to equalize the price. Do you think the Shimano line would retain it's quality? What incentive would the US based company have to continually improve?, drive innovation and overall performance of the product? If they had any at all it would be only enough to keep pace with SRAM or steal those designs and ideas to keep a competative product on the shelf. I promise you that the less expensive company would eventually eat up the American company and buy out the manufacturing facility, make SRAM in the USA and Shimano would be gone.

    We've seen this play out in the automotive market already! Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Honda all have factories in the USA and VW has factories in Mexico (NAFTA) to be able to make products in the US cheaper overall. Ford has been made in Canada for the last 30 yrs (Windsor motor and F-150 truck), the labor across the water is cheaper.

    The killer is the price of labor! at one time GM was paying $1200 / vehicle produced to cover legacy expences. LEGACY! meaning nobody that actually touched that vehicle in ANY way made money off that sale! I'm not sure if it's still that way, but you cannot pay 5% toward dead expences and expect to live (can you say Govt. bailout!? OUCH!)

    In the end consumers want low cost, high quality products. I know I do,..am I willing to pay more for a substantial boost in quality? You bet! But given the same quality for 30% less I know that I'd do, and what most Americans would do too. It only makes sense,..
    Moreover, those low cost products also drive innovation to the next level of quality and the next level of performance. Would we have an XTR line w/o the XT line? don't think so,...

    Offshoring jobs isn't a terrible thing from a global economic standpoint. What is bad is that Americans have grown lazy, stupid and feeling entitled to a cushy life. Our grandfathers didn't feel like that, I know I don't, but I see it in the kids. As one post above notes a plant required a 9th grade math level (that's like basic algebra! 2x+7=22 kinda stuff) and they couldn't get that from the local population. I hire Database developers for my shop and I ended up getting two Mexicans, one Lebanese, one Indian and only two Americans out of the bunch. I can't find qualified labor even in the low 6 figure salary mark to get this job done! Unemployment may be high right now, but skilled workers are still in demand,..

    Americans need to get off the couch and into the world. Read,.. Learn,. Grow! or we will die!
    Last edited by 29erBob; 07-29-2010 at 09:38 AM.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by 29erBob
    What is bad is that Americans have grown lazy, stupid and feeling entitled to a cushy life. one Lebonese, one Idian Americans need to get off the couch and into the world. Read,.. Learn,. Grow! or we will die!
    Good points, I agree on all you said, but let's not forget the importance of proper language skills....

    Lebanese, and Indian, I'm sure they'd agree!
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  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    we have a thing in houston call humidity heck today it's only 88% feels like a cold front came through.

    http://www.wunderground.com/US/TX/Houston.html

    try riding to work in 90%+ humidity on a daily basis...
    Humidity in Houston is nothing compared to Singapore where I have been for the last six months. Try close to 100%

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith
    Good points, I agree on all you said, but let's not forget the importance of proper language skills....

    Lebanese, and Indian, I'm sure they'd agree!
    Sorry,.. fingers going faster than brain,..

    BTW,.. thanks for the Super Castle tool Craig! I look forward to digging into the Lefty this weekend.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 29erBob
    Sorry,.. fingers going faster than brain,...
    No worries, I'm just a language geek

    Happy wrenching!
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  56. #56
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    We've seen this play out in the automotive market already! Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Honda all have factories in the USA

    Harley had similar complaint in the late 70's / early 80's- i'm not sure about the date , they lobbied the government for tariffs on over 750cc bikes form Japan. So all the factories in Japan did was build 700 cc bikes which were just as fast to beat the tariffs and then eventually they started building bikes in the US.

  57. #57
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    Guess why the USA is the most powerful military force on the face of the earth?
    Because of innovation, radical weapon designs etc. all developed and made here in the USA.
    I doubt that a Chinese made M1A2 Abrams tank would meet the strict quality guidelines.....or the Apache, or the F22 Raptor, or the......(list goes on!)
    I agree with Mendon 100%.....enforcing fuel efficiency regulation for new cars is the way to go.
    It's sad to see that all the "new" American fuel efficient cars are all originally from other countries!
    Yes, most of the Buick and Chevy Chassis/Drive trains are actually from either German Opel or former Daewoo cars....
    So is the "new" Ford Fiesta....developed in Europe, adopted for the US market....
    All the small "Geek" cars are being developed and built everywhere but the US.....
    Chevy thinks the future is to just put a Hybrid Drivetrain in a Tahoe and proudly advertise 21mpgs...ridiculous!
    "Common sense isn't always that common!"
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdalemaniac
    Guess why the USA is the most powerful military force on the face of the earth?
    Because of innovation, radical weapon designs etc. all developed and made here in the USA.
    I doubt that a Chinese made M1A2 Abrams tank would meet the strict quality guidelines.....or the Apache, or the F22 Raptor, or the......(list goes on!)
    I agree with Mendon 100%.....enforcing fuel efficiency regulation for new cars is the way to go.
    It's sad to see that all the "new" American fuel efficient cars are all originally from other countries!
    Yes, most of the Buick and Chevy Chassis/Drive trains are actually from either German Opel or former Daewoo cars....
    So is the "new" Ford Fiesta....developed in Europe, adopted for the US market....
    All the small "Geek" cars are being developed and built everywhere but the US.....
    Chevy thinks the future is to just put a Hybrid Drivetrain in a Tahoe and proudly advertise 21mpgs...ridiculous!
    Innovation is driven by a need in the target market - or a created need. The US and A has started several wars, hence creating a need.

    As it seems, low consumption cars are not in demand in US. Because the cheap gas. When the gas prices rose some years ago, I saw a picture of two girls demonstrating against high gas prices with the sign: "Please lower the gas prices! Our mom can't afford cable"...

    For me the most important things when buying a product are not where it is engineered and built, but how it is engineered and built. I buy a Lefty because I like the technology, but I would not mind if they built them in Asia, so I wouldn't be living of rice and noodles for a couple of months to pay the credit card bill.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdalemaniac
    Chevy thinks the future is to just put a Hybrid Drivetrain in a Tahoe and proudly advertise 21mpgs...ridiculous!
    I give them hesitant credit.

    If the Volt actually comes to market, and folks buy them like Accords, it will be a game changer...

    Someone's gotta do something bold, and it's there, as in, the next 15 to 20 years there
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  60. #60
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    just better bikes

    There is a sadness that comes with the end of production of c-dales in the USA. I remember in HS I wanted a c-dale so badly. I finally got a hyper-highlight blu/black 3.0 frame w/ a peperoni fork. I loved this bike... None of my friends had this kind of bike. It was really light and super stiff. The huge downtube inspired looks from everyone. I should have kept that bike..

    Anyway, I have seen the full 2011 line and it is simply a big step forward for the company. Look for better spec, cleaner lines and a more polished final product.

    My current bike is a USA built Seven Cycles Verve TI 29 w/ a lefty headtube tube. At the product launch in June I rode the Flash carbon 29er for about 100 miles in total. This bike might cost about 1/3 of what my 7 would sell for. My seven does not compare to the new Flash. I don't care where they made this bike. It is simply an amazing machine. It is easy to be patriotic, but the bikes that I have sampled from c-dale that have been produced offshore are simply amazing.


    On the road side, I have had each generation of the Super six. The USA made bikes are nowhere near as nice a ride as the china made Super 6's. They also do not break which is nice.


    The move to offshore build was inevitable. These guys want to make a profit and they deserve to. They simply will make more money in this type of manufacturing.


    Remember that the designers for c-dale have been in CT while the mfging has been in PA. Not much changes from a designer's perspective, only where they might email a cad design file.


    Don't give up on c-dale yet. Look closely at the 2011 lineup and make an educated decision. Just my .02
    ..I'd rather be a headlight on a northbound train..

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdog
    On the road side, I have had each generation of the Super six. The USA made bikes are nowhere near as nice a ride as the china made Super 6's. They also do not break which is nice.
    I completely agree with you. I have seen the evolution of the Super Six, the weight drop, stiffness go up and quality stay somewhat the same (slight decline). That all changed when we started getting 2010 Taiwanese frames. These Asian frames are even lighter and stiffer, but more importantly the quality is much higher.

    I think quality can only get better from here (Thank you Peter Denk).

    Quote Originally Posted by jdog
    Don't give up on c-dale yet. Look closely at the 2011 lineup and make an educated decision. Just my .02
    2011 is a killer line up, any one to give up because it isnt made in the US is missing out.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith
    You're obviously a smart guy (meant sincerely, not snarkily), why are you trying so hard to evade my point? It's not about making cycling more predominant, it's about forcing the market to create vehicles that go farther, with less. For the life of me, I can't understand how or why we equate macho, coolness, strength, Americanness whatever, with spending more on fuel, than is really necessary, it just baffles me.

    Bottom line car manufactures are in the business to make a profit and to sell what consumers want if in fact folks really really really wanted a super fuel efficient automobile then the market would support it right now nobody wants a dinky little euro car or some goofball hybrid. Obama motors just came out with some stupid electric car the ďvoltĒ it gets 40 miles to the charge then you have to run a gasoline one thing that the handwringing do-gooders forget is when they are charging their $41,000 electric car is what their home electricity bill is going to be and exactly how much MORE fossil fuel are they burning at the electrical plant just so they can feel good about themselves as they putter along?

    Hey Iím all for alternative energy and saving fuel I have a performance and fuel efficiency chip along with K&N air filters on my F350 dually to eke out as many miles as I can to the $100+ fill-ups. The issue that the vast majority of Americans have is not saving but being forced to modify our behavior if you want drive a 50 mpg car go for it just donít whine about me in my SUV or Muscle Car. We are not going to run out of oil in my lifetime or in the foreseeable few lifetimes. Politicians and enviro wackos have been spinning the we are running out of fossel fuels myth since the early 70ís and yet we keep on finding more and more oil under our own ground and coastlines year after year yet we still wonít drill and continue to rely on foreign sources.

    Until you find a cheaper better alternative to fossil fuels there isnít going to be a huge rush to let go of our current gas and diesel burning automobiles.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    Bottom line car manufactures are in the business to make a profit and to sell what consumers want if in fact folks really really really wanted a super fuel efficient automobile then the market would support it right now nobody wants a dinky little euro car or some goofball hybrid. Obama motors just came out with some stupid electric car the “volt” it gets 40 miles to the charge then you have to run a gasoline one thing that the handwringing do-gooders forget is when they are charging their $41,000 electric car is what their home electricity bill is going to be and exactly how much MORE fossil fuel are they burning at the electrical plant just so they can feel good about themselves as they putter along?

    Hey I’m all for alternative energy and saving fuel I have a performance and fuel efficiency chip along with K&N air filters on my F350 dually to eke out as many miles as I can to the $100+ fill-ups. The issue that the vast majority of Americans have is not saving but being forced to modify our behavior if you want drive a 50 mpg car go for it just don’t whine about me in my SUV or Muscle Car. We are not going to run out of oil in my lifetime or in the foreseeable few lifetimes. Politicians and enviro wackos have been spinning the we are running out of fossel fuels myth since the early 70’s and yet we keep on finding more and more oil under our own ground and coastlines year after year yet we still won’t drill and continue to rely on foreign sources.

    Until you find a cheaper better alternative to fossil fuels there isn’t going to be a huge rush to let go of our current gas and diesel burning automobiles.
    I have to somewhat agree there, HAL!
    The Volt is a totally stupid idea IMHO......I don't "hate" folks who drive muscle cars or big trucks that guzzle gas.....
    What gets me though is that a lot of folks buy cars without looking at mpg and then go and cry later....
    After that bad Hurrican (2years ago?) almost every gas station here in the south ran out of gas and my muscle car and truck buddies were whining like crazy 'cause all of the sudden they couldn't have the engine idle for 30-45min. for the a/c while they were shopping at wal-mart!
    I used to have a 96' Mustang GT when it came out....tricked it out and everything....didn't complain about high gas prices either because having a ride like that is nobody else's fault but mine.
    The problem here in the US is that everything is set up where you NEED to ride a car.....
    I can't even get to the Mall across the interstate where I live...instead I have to crank up the car and drive 2 miles or so....believe me I'd rather walk although my current car gets like 32 mpg.....
    People are getting lazy and fat......
    I never see a person with a cast on their leg or something ride one of those electric scooters at the mall......
    Every time I spot one, a 350lbs fat @$$ sits on it.....if they would walk more and watch their nutrition they wouldn't have those issues.
    Raising gas prices might help solve this problem....
    Oh and btw HAL...you can't call it "OBAMA MOTORS" anymore because not too long ago GMC paid back the bailout money + interest..... but you might not know since you seem to only watch Fox news....
    "Common sense isn't always that common!"
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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdalemaniac
    Oh and btw HAL...you can't call it "OBAMA MOTORS" anymore because not too long ago GMC paid back the bailout money + interest..... but you might not know since you seem to only watch Fox news....
    Hombre a discussion about politics is not one that you wish to engage with me unless you bring some FACTS, REASON and LOGIC to the table so I suggest unless you have done your research first you keep your baseless opinions to yourself.

    I guess you didn't read the fine print about the little TARP GM shell game on the daily kos or huffington post eh?

    So in case you missed it here is reality. GM was able to repay the money by drawing down on a line of credit that it had from TARP. In other words, GM took funds still available to it through TARP and used those funds to repay the loan it received from the government. Of course, it now owes $4.7 billion on its line of credit with TARP.

    http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/23/gen...ha-dalmia.html

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    Bottom line car manufactures are in the business to make a profit and to sell what consumers want if in fact folks really really really wanted a super fuel efficient automobile then the market would support it right now nobody wants a dinky little euro car or some goofball hybrid. Obama motors just came out with some stupid electric car the “volt” it gets 40 miles to the charge then you have to run a gasoline one thing that the handwringing do-gooders forget is when they are charging their $41,000 electric car is what their home electricity bill is going to be and exactly how much MORE fossil fuel are they burning at the electrical plant just so they can feel good about themselves as they putter along?

    Hey I’m all for alternative energy and saving fuel I have a performance and fuel efficiency chip along with K&N air filters on my F350 dually to eke out as many miles as I can to the $100+ fill-ups. The issue that the vast majority of Americans have is not saving but being forced to modify our behavior if you want drive a 50 mpg car go for it just don’t whine about me in my SUV or Muscle Car. We are not going to run out of oil in my lifetime or in the foreseeable few lifetimes. Politicians and enviro wackos have been spinning the we are running out of fossel fuels myth since the early 70’s and yet we keep on finding more and more oil under our own ground and coastlines year after year yet we still won’t drill and continue to rely on foreign sources.

    Until you find a cheaper better alternative to fossil fuels there isn’t going to be a huge rush to let go of our current gas and diesel burning automobiles.


    The gains received with those chips and air filters are marginal. Burning fuel is bad for the environment and so is tearing apart the earth in search of more. The mentality of "We are not going to run out of oil in my lifetime" is somewhat selfish towards the future inhabitants of this planet. I think the point in reducing fuel intake and finding alternatives is just that. It promotes cleaner and healthier practices for the earth.

    Don't get me wrong I like SUVs and muscle cars, but I'm not going to act like I don't understand the repercussions of burning fuel. I suppose some people just do not care.

    Now with electric cars its still a fairly new technology to introduce to the masses. Right now it is expensive, but it would seem to make sense for the car maker to enter something into the market to possibly gain some interest and net some return towards that project. Its called taking steps forward. Even if it flops there will still be momentum made.
    All electricity is not produced by coal plants, there is wind, water, and solar power. Cleaner energy. Your mockery resembles your Rush to the gas pedal.
    Last edited by drvn93; 07-30-2010 at 01:28 PM.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by drvn93
    The gains received with those chips and air filters are marginal. Burning fuel is bad for the environment and so is tearing apart the earth in search of more. The mentality of "We are not going to run out of oil in my lifetime" is somewhat selfish towards the future inhabitants of this planet. I think the point in reducing fuel intake and finding alternatives is just that. It promotes cleaner and healthier practices for the earth.
    seriously...do you actually belive the horsecrap you just wrote?


    Quote Originally Posted by drvn93
    Now with electric cars its still a fairly new technology to introduce to the masses. Right now it is expensive, but it would seem to make sense for the car maker to enter something into the market to possibly gain some interest and net some return towards that project. Its called taking steps forward. Even if it flops there will still be momentum made.
    All electricity is not produced by coal plants, there is wind, water, and solar power. Cleaner energy. Your mockery resembles your Rush to the pedal.
    electric automobiles have been around since the 1830's they had electric automobiles decades before the internal combustible engine was invented like i said if people really wanted electrical cars then the market would support it.

    your blind obedience to failed ideologies is not letting you see things for what they are but as you wish them to be. i suggest you get practical and realize that our fossil fuel economy is here to stay and all the hoping and wishing in the world for eveybody to think green is a fallacy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    I suggest unless you have done your research first you keep your baseless opinions to yourself.
    I guess you didn't read the fine print about the little TARP GM shell game on the daily kos or huffington post eh?
    ......Damn mainstream media didn't even cover that ....guess you got me on that one then......
    "Common sense isn't always that common!"
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  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    seriously...do you actually belive the horsecrap you just wrote?

    What do you not understand about what I wrote? You seem to take offense, do you feel threatened?


    electric automobiles have been around since the 1830's they had electric automobiles decades before the internal combustible engine was invented like i said if people really wanted electrical cars then the market would support it.

    your blind obedience to failed ideologies is not letting you see things for what they are but as you wish them to be. i suggest you get practical and realize that our fossil fuel economy is here to stay and all the hoping and wishing in the world for eveybody to think green is a fallacy.
    Get practical? What do you think that I am talking about?

    By the way you type I am not sure if you can understand the concepts that I presented earlier. Perhaps your ego is getting in the way. In case you haven't noticed, green energy, lifestyles, building ect.. are rapidly growing in the US. Obviously the fossil fuel industry is not going to stop, but there are smarter and cleaner ways about going about things.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    Hombre a discussion about politics is not one that you wish to engage with me unless you bring some FACTS, REASON and LOGIC to the table so I suggest unless you have done your research first you keep your baseless opinions to yourself.

    I guess you didn't read the fine print about the little TARP GM shell game on the daily kos or huffington post eh?

    So in case you missed it here is reality. GM was able to repay the money by drawing down on a line of credit that it had from TARP. In other words, GM took funds still available to it through TARP and used those funds to repay the loan it received from the government. Of course, it now owes $4.7 billion on its line of credit with TARP.

    http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/23/gen...ha-dalmia.html
    He look facts reason, not just feelings and opinions!

    Seriously, the former head of GM Rick Wagoner said (I'm paraphrasing, but this is really close to what he said) "when he finally got to the CEO position at General Motors, that he was going to be in charge of the largest car company in the world, and instead what he had to learn was how to administer the largest health care plan in the country"

    GM is a health care and pension plan that also makes cars.
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by drvn93
    in the way. In case you haven't noticed, green energy, lifestyles, building ect.. are rapidly growing in the US. Obviously the fossil fuel industry is not going to stop, but there are smarter and cleaner ways about going about things.
    Seriously get your head outta your rear!! "Green Energy/Jobs" are no more than a major scam!! "Green Energy/Jobs" makes no economic sense whatsoever, and where it has been tried most extensively, evidence shows that it's a job-destroying, econo*my-weakening fiasco!!

    When you subsidize poverty and failure, you get more of both.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...ic-uncertainty

    When talking about our bold green energy future, President Obama held up Spain as an example. Spain invested heavily in wind power and other renewable energy. Alas, after studying the Spanish experience, Prof. Gabriel Calzada Alvarez and colleagues at Spain's Universidad Rey Juan Carlos found that if America followed Spain's example, for every renewable energy job that the United States managed to create, it should expect a loss, on average, of at least 2.2 traditional jobs.

    Each job created in Spain's effort cost about $750,000, and only 1 in 10 was permanent. Thus, creating even 3 million new green jobs would cost $2.25 trillion. Even in a time where a trillion is the new billion, that's a lot of money.

    And the goods produced (wind and solar power plants in this case) jack up energy prices dramatically and cause more job losses throughout the econo*my. Electricity rates in Spain would have to rise 31 percent just to repay subsidies given to renewable developers.

    Finally, the Spanish team found that "the high cost of electricity due to the green job policy tends to drive the relatively most [sic] energy-intensive companies and industries away, seeking areas where costs are lower."

    As for the nonexportability of green jobs, New York Sen. Charles Schumer recently asked the administration to keep stimu*lus money from going to a proposed West Texas wind farm because it would have generated as many as 3,000 permanent jobs in Shenyang, China (proposed site of the wind turbine construction), but would have created only 300 temporary jobs in the United States and a laughably trivial 30 permanent jobs here. Anyone who thinks the United States is going to compete with China for windmill and solar cell manufacturing, given that nation's lower labor rates and greater access to vital rare-earth elements, is living in a fantasy world.

    The bottom line: Government job creation, green or otherwise, is private-sector job destruction. In the end, there are fewer net jobs and less net economic productivity than if the government had not interfered with the market.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    Seriously get your head outta your rear!! "Green Energy/Jobs" are no more than a major scam!! "Green Energy/Jobs" makes no economic sense whatsoever, and where it has been tried most extensively, evidence shows that it's a job-destroying, econo*my-weakening fiasco!!

    When you subsidize poverty and failure, you get more of both.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...ic-uncertainty
    I guess it depends on your area, where I live the community is greener. I did not say that there were tons of jobs or money involved, my point was that there is a more evolved consciousness with a greener lifestyle. I work partly in the construction field and most(if not all) new construction homes are incorporating green building styles such as using renewable resources and products, built to energy star specifics like heating, cooling, foundation, windows etc.. Not everything has a green stamp on it but is still considered cost effective and efficient. In my town there are 5 or more solar companies, there are recycle cans everywhere, there is a ride share program.. Lots of things that are proven to work, gain momentum, and influence a healthy community.


    I basically called you on your explanation of everything revolving around fossil fuel and then I started to contribute alternative concepts. I don't think that you are really interpreting what I am saying rather you are just having your own rant about certain topics.
    Maybe you could offer some solutions instead.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by drvn93
    Maybe you could offer some solutions instead.
    I DID ON MY FIRST POST WE ARE SITTING ON AN OCEAN OF OIL AND A MOUNTAIN OF COAL DRILL HERE DRILL NOW AND DIG HERE DIG NOW F*CK THE MIDDLE EAST!

    HOW CAN YOU BE SO DENSE?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bmMn...eature=related
    Last edited by HAL 9000; 08-02-2010 at 05:55 AM.

  73. #73
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    Honda Element is NOT a 4x4!

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    I DID ON MY FIRST POST WE ARE SITTING ON AN OCEAN OF OIL AND A MOUNTAIN OF COAL DRILL HERE DRILL NOW AND DIG HERE DIG NOW F*CK THE MIDDLE EAST!

    HOW CAN YOU BE SO DENSE?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bmMn...eature=related
    I still think you feel threatened in way or another by alternative concepts and the comprehension of.

    Props for the SOD though!

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    WE ARE SITTING ON AN OCEAN OF OIL
    The folks on the gulf coast would agree. And with more deep water drilling coming we may be more often.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000
    I DID ON MY FIRST POST WE ARE SITTING ON AN OCEAN OF OIL AND A MOUNTAIN OF COAL DRILL HERE DRILL NOW AND DIG HERE DIG NOW F*CK THE MIDDLE EAST!

    HOW CAN YOU BE SO DENSE?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bmMn...eature=related

    Sounds good...the only problem with that is oil doesn't belong to any country, it's considered a global commodity....
    Oil from the USA for instance goes into the "world wide pool" from there it is bought back.
    So is oil from any other country.
    Burning fossil fuels also has the issue of co2 emissions.....everytime something is burned, co2 is emitted.
    Clean coal burning is a myth as well.....even the most sophisticated furnaces only filter carbon among other cancer causing substances out of the smoke but co2 remains.....
    So focusing to go greener only has benefits:
    Less Co2 emissions means less smog alerts in big cities, overall better air quality and less "Ozone Alerts"
    Almost every country in the world is going green (or greener than us for example) so there is a big market that right now is occupied by everyone but the USA.....
    If we produce greener cars that people outside the US like also, then we can export them , boosting our economy.
    99% of batteries for Hybrid cars are made in China....
    And as I mentioned before almost every fuel efficient car out there was engineered outside of this country and is being sold world wide like hotcakes.
    Big SUV's like a Tahoe or Suburban etc. sell almost exclusively here in the US. and then people wonder why GMC went belly up....
    We have to start producing what people want, which right now if you like it or not is green.
    Last edited by cdalemaniac; 08-04-2010 at 02:43 PM.
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  77. #77
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    Sigh...I bought a Honda Fit after hydroplaning my Dodge Intrepid off the road. People make fun of me. A woman I'm dating tried to talk me out of buying it. It's a neat little car and it is CHEAP, relatively speaking. It was made in Japan. I have mixed feelings about this. I used to be a Teamster, but I watched as management and labor became complacent and tried to take care of their own. Both sides put them selves first, rather than the product. I think the American companies have improved tremendously, and if I was at a higher price point, I would may have chosen a GM vehicle. I thought about a Focus, but I couldn't handle the styling. I also have a tuned 07 Corvette which I love, however I'm constantly having a internal debate as to whether I should sell it or not. The Corvette just idles at freeway speeds and gets great gas milage when doing so. The mods have made it more fuel efficient. But lets get real. A economically friendly Corvette makes as much sense as the "green" Lambo I saw at a car show. It is what it is; a energy sucking monster. But I do like efficiency. Inexpensive mini vans and other space efficient vehicles are kind of a turn on to me. This fetish developed when I was forced to purchase a Ford Granada station wagon in undergrad. I came to love it. I never washed it and the dog, baby, mountain bike, etc, fit in the back. I would like to commute by bike, but it would be impracticable - full time single parent with inpatient and outpatient duties.

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