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  1. #1
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    Rush Too Low & Prophet Too Long??

    My beloved 2003 Jekylls frame broke and C-dale says to pick a new '08 Rush or Prophet. Im very split between the 2 bikes, even after browsing mtbr. The drawbacks seem to be the lower bb of the Rush and the longer wheelbase of the Prophet. Everyone who compares either to a Jekyll says how much better the bikes are...I want a bike that's good in rough East Coast terrrain, climbs well, and wont be limiting in narrow switchbacks.
    The new bike will not have a lefty.

    Thanx
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  2. #2
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    It's almost cruel to post a picture of your dead bike isn't it?

    Will you use your Headshok? If so, I'd go with the Rush, a Headshok on a Prophet would have a weird geometry and feel, unless you use a shorter shock to also drop the rear end... but then you'd be almost back to a Rush... The Headshok has almost the same height as a 110mm Lefty so it wouldn't screw up the geometry. I vote Rush.

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  3. #3
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    I'll be ditching the Headshok for a Vanilla or maybe a Pike if I go Prophet. Im also open to fork ideas. Ive been only on 70-80mm headshoks so long!

    If I go Rush, I'll see how the Headshok works.

    I have an Optimo to ride as well, so either duallie wont have to "do it all".


  4. #4
    LJJ
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    I'd go Rush

    Quote Originally Posted by pedaler845
    My beloved 2003 Jekylls frame broke and C-dale says to pick a new '08 Rush or Prophet. Im very split between the 2 bikes, even after browsing mtbr. The drawbacks seem to be the lower bb of the Rush and the longer wheelbase of the Prophet. Everyone who compares either to a Jekyll says how much better the bikes are...I want a bike that's good in rough East Coast terrrain, climbs well, and wont be limiting in narrow switchbacks.
    The new bike will not have a lefty.

    Thanx
    Having had a Jekyll with both Headshok and Lefty, the natural successor would be the Rush. Sad and surprising that the frame failed - I always thought the Jekyll rather over-engineered.

    I own a carbon Rush with Lefty - it's an awesome bike. I am selling a Prophet at the moment on ebay - just too flexy at rear end. It never felt too long tho'.

    If I were buying my Rush again, I would by the Rush 4 - carbon front end and a Fox F120 fork, which raises the rather low BB height and makes the front taller and head angle slightly slacker by about a degree. It's had rave reviews in our UK mags- 'What MTB' & 'mbr' and 'M.B.A.' in the US loved it too.

    Good Luck
    LJJ

  5. #5
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    I agree, go with the rush. I demo'ed a Prophet and felt a flexy rear end when I started to hammer on it going up hills. The rush is a really stiff bike, especially the carbon.

    Definitely go lefty if you are going with the Rush, it completes the bike.

  6. #6
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    you can always sell the new frame, old parts and get something else?

  7. #7
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    I agree...go with a Rush!
    Hey Amillmtb, how can the Prophet feel flexy compared to the Prophet, sine the swing arm design is pretty much the same? I know your Prophet Geometry pic all to well I just think they swing arms are identical as far as the hot box area and everything else goes only that the Prophet has the additional holes for FR/CC.....
    Or is Rush really that much stiffer because of the brace on the swing arm?
    "Common sense isn't always that common!"
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  8. #8
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    I am NO expert nor am I a novice, But I can't feel any flex bad enough to put me off riding my Prophet 1000, I PERSONALLY feel that the Magazines do not explain what they are getting at in enough detail, when they they say there is flex in the swing arm, you would presume that the bike is unridable and uncontrollable due to this super flexy back end.

    Utter Rubbish is what I say, true it may not be as stiff as an Orange five swing arm or other bike with similar raised chain stay swing arm design, BUT are they as light as the Uncontrollable rear ended prophet?

    I guess what I'm getting at is that the Magazines have to write hyper critical stuff like this or they would have nothing to write about and be out of a job.

    Get the Prophet OR the rush they are both great bikes with or without the lefty, although if bottom bkt height is a concern (i.e if you normally ride rocky rooty terrain as in the picture above) get the rush 4 as mentioned above, if not and you normally ride smooth flowing terrain then is the bottom bkt height really a problem?

    hope this helps?

  9. #9
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    All about it is here:

    <a href="http://www.singletrackworld.com/article.php?sid=1406" target="_blank">The first two hours was spent listening to the Designers, Testers and Engineers waxing lyrical about the hydroformed tubing, balance of the bike being perfect, the 10 months of testing with Cedric Garcia to get the swingarm flex right. It is clear that they have put a huge amount of effort, research and passion into this bike to produce the lightest longest travel bike in its class.</a>

    This doesn't come from Magazines but from Cannondale as something that should be mentioned.

    Let's see the new Cannondale...will it say "improved frame stiffness"? But likely no longer "the lightest longest travel bike in its class".
    Last edited by ozvena; 01-10-2008 at 04:16 PM.

  10. #10
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    "Flexy" seems to be the buzzword on this forum and I think it really gets overused. Can all these people that complain about "flexy" frames, "flexy" wheels and "flexy" thingamajigs really notice it? I've grown to loathe the non-word "flexy".
    Last edited by vitaccop; 01-08-2008 at 08:16 PM.

  11. #11
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    No need to get upset. It is reality that even the manufacturer talks about. I think it would be unfair to not to talk about it in threads like this one. I wish I knew about it when I was discussing my new bike. I hate surprises. Now I got Prophet and I think it was still the best choice.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by prophet_1000
    I am NO expert nor am I a novice, But I can't feel any flex bad enough to put me off riding my Prophet 1000, I PERSONALLY feel that the Magazines do not explain what they are getting at in enough detail, when they they say there is flex in the swing arm, you would presume that the bike is unridable and uncontrollable due to this super flexy back end.

    Utter Rubbish is what I say, true it may not be as stiff as an Orange five swing arm or other bike with similar raised chain stay swing arm design, BUT are they as light as the Uncontrollable rear ended prophet?

    I guess what I'm getting at is that the Magazines have to write hyper critical stuff like this or they would have nothing to write about and be out of a job.

    Get the Prophet OR the rush they are both great bikes with or without the lefty, although if bottom bkt height is a concern (i.e if you normally ride rocky rooty terrain as in the picture above) get the rush 4 as mentioned above, if not and you normally ride smooth flowing terrain then is the bottom bkt height really a problem?

    hope this helps?
    I agree. I've had my Prophet 1000 for almost 3 years now and it still amazes me. I typically can climb, bomb, and hammer though anything better than most of the people I ride with. My wife has a Rush and since we are the same size they are both medium. It feels much more like a ht but still soaks up the bumps really well. However, for aggressive riding on the rocky trails we have here in New England, the Prophet is perfect for me. That is no coincidence since Cannondale headquarters are in CT and they are often seen testing throughout New England..

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedaler845
    The drawbacks seem to be the......... the longer wheelbase of the Prophet.

    The new bike will not have a lefty.

    Thanx
    I think the longer wheelbase is a misconception because of the lack of stem choice with the Lefty.

    I have a Prophet which I built up from the frame. No Lefty ever mounted. The chainstay is actually pretty short at 16.5 " and the bike is very flickable.

    My friend has a Prophet which original had a Lefty. He use to endo all the time on technical steeps. He switch to a regular fork and a 50mm stem and stopped his bike from being an endomatic.

    Don't get me wrong. The Lefty is probably great for regular XC and all-mountain but will really test your skills on super steep technical stuff. We have no flat trails here.

    My Prophet is a small my friends is a medium. I remember trying his medium with the Lefty and the bike felt to long for me. The bike felt way shorter when he switch the Lefty out and put a 50mm stem on it.

  14. #14
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    The crack happened on the rear section, just behind the cross piece at the weld. Its the second swingarm they warranteed for me, the first was on a 2000 Raven.
    I looked into some of the ideas mentioned .
    I'm pretty sure the Rush bb will not fit my style, I like having a big ring.
    I also like plush and long travel.
    My Jekyll's suspension to many was an unbalanced freak, but it worked well and saved more than a pound. I am looking forward to balanced suspension, and now need to pick a fork. The Marz AM's, Pike, Vanilla...
    I'll be calling my shop tomorrow and ask for a Prophet in white:
    http://www.cannondale.com/bikes/08/cusa/model-8VE1.html
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  15. #15
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    I probably had that crack a while; when I would lock the brakes and hop I'd hear a creak that I thought was a brake pad moving. Once the wheel was removed and the bike was on its side it let go completely.

  16. #16
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    get the prophet, its maybe heavier than the rush but then it takes bigger drops in th AM category. the adjustable geometry will help and GET A LEFTY. bigger travel than the rush makes it more AM than XC

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitaccop
    "Flexy" seems to be the buzzword on this forum and I think it really gets overused. Can all these people that complain about "flexy" frames, "flexy" wheels and "flexy" thingamajigs really notice it? I've grown to loathe the non-word "flexy".
    Yes they can. The Prophet is flexier than a wet noodle. It must be the first bike with two wheel steering. It makes a straight tarmac road feel like twisty singletrack. It's just so bad, I'd rather ride a rubber band equipped with wheels! Oh, did I say it's flexy? It sure is flexy, damn flexy!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boozzz
    Oh, did I say it's flexy?
    Lol!!! Boozzz, I would be afraid of this guy coming after you.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boozzz
    Yes they can. The Prophet is flexier than a wet noodle. It must be the first bike with two wheel steering. It makes a straight tarmac road feel like twisty singletrack. It's just so bad, I'd rather ride a rubber band equipped with wheels! Oh, did I say it's flexy? It sure is flexy, damn flexy!

    I would define flexy as a Fox Vanilla front fork with a quick release, not a Prophet rear swing arm.

    I could feel the flex BAD on that fork. I personally have never noticed any rear flex on my Prophet, whether I'm leaning on a fast turn or cranking off the seat. Maybe I'm just used to it.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozvena
    Lol!!! Boozzz, I would be afraid of this guy coming after you.
    Yes.. I have dispatched a squadron of trained attack kittens to your house....

  21. #21
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    I hate kittens!

  22. #22
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    I think The Prophet Looks Awesome in white.

    I wished mine would break so I could get a new one on warranty, IN WHITE!

    In the mean time, where did I put my spray gun?

  23. #23
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    i have an 08 prophet 2. i feel no flex in it, well no lateral flex. if people are so worried about flex and stifness, then go buy a rigid bike . i think stifness is over rated. people need to stop being so b!tchy about it. i say get that prophet, then get a marzocchi 55. dont listen to anybody about "oh when the suspension compresses, i feel flex" they are stupid! why buy a FS bike if you want stiffness? and if you feel pedal bob, all you have to do is reach under your butt and flip the little blue lever. people annoy me. have fun with whatever bike you choose. ohh, and the prophet actually has a short wheelbase, at least thats how it feels to me, i think that its acctually the perfect length.

  24. #24
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    I thought about getting a Lefty for another bike, but then I got stickershock. I could get the best Fox fork and a round trip to Vegas!
    I am psyched to get long travel...Im hoping with my build it'll be 29lbs.
    The Jekyll's rear hooked up great before the Float was Pushed.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitaccop
    Yes.. I have dispatched a squadron of trained attack kittens to your house....
    Nooooo, not the kittens! But they better watch out, I've got some hard core ex-navy seal mice here.

  26. #26
    LJJ
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    Way too flexy

    Quote Originally Posted by Boozzz
    Yes they can. The Prophet is flexier than a wet noodle. It must be the first bike with two wheel steering. It makes a straight tarmac road feel like twisty singletrack. It's just so bad, I'd rather ride a rubber band equipped with wheels! Oh, did I say it's flexy? It sure is flexy, damn flexy!
    Absolutely Boozzz - I have a Carbon Rush and Prophet - both with Lefty. Hills I clean on the Rush I don't on the Prophet, due to the rear end skipping out; also ghost shifts all the time. Yes, the brace on the Rush appears to be the difference. My Prophet frame's on e-bay right now...........dreadful thing. Maybe the new ones with Pikes are somehow better ?

    Nice cat b.t.w.

    LJJ

  27. #27
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    Flex certainly sounds like the boogey-man I wouldnt want to ride with. I'd ridden the Jekyll long and hard and never was aware of it. A comparison of flexing rears between Jekyyl and Prophet I'd be curious to hear about! If the Prophet is like an impoved Jekyll Im sold. If flex is something that huck-ers experience, I can live with that. I just want to ride up, on and over boulders and logs

    Ive only ridden Headshoks which are probably 2nd in firmness to a rigid, so to hear that a Vanilla flexes is a bit of a surprise I also want to avoid. I do have a wheel with a thru-axle option, but such a fork might send the weight into the 30's and Im going for 28+. Again, if Im not doing big drops but otherwise riding "all-mountain" I wonder if flex of an '07 or '08 Vanilla or Float is an issue??

    Thanks, posters.

  28. #28
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    Ignore those guys that claim the Prophet is flexy. I have ridden the snot out of mine for almost 3 years and have always felt like the bike was perfectly dialed in.

    Compared to a Lefty the Fox probably is a bit flexy. But of course the Lefty is the stiffest fork for its weight. But the Fox is a good fork that you would be happy with.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodsguy
    Ignore those guys that claim the Prophet is flexy. I have ridden the snot out of mine for almost 3 years and have always felt like the bike was perfectly dialed in.

    Compared to a Lefty the Fox probably is a bit flexy. But of course the Lefty is the stiffest fork for its weight. But the Fox is a good fork that you would be happy with.
    Well, here's what you get on a Cannondale forum. All I can say is, take the gospel of all these worshippers that deify their Prophet on this forum with a grain of salt. I can't deny what I feel, and that is that the rear wheel is all over the place. Oh, by the way, I've been riding it for over 2 years now as well. You don't need to be a hucker to feel it; just ride on any uneven surface ...

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boozzz
    Well, here's what you get on a Cannondale forum. All I can say is, take the gospel of all these worshippers that deify their Prophet on this forum with a grain of salt. I can't deny what I feel, and that is that the rear wheel is all over the place. Oh, by the way, I've been riding it for over 2 years now as well. You don't need to be a hucker to feel it; just ride on any uneven surface ...
    hmm...I do and I'm 185 lbs. I hit rock gardens and rough terrain all the time. I've never had ghost shifting or brake rubbing or flex. In fact, even when I put all my weight into pushing the rear tire from side to side, the swingarm does not move at all. Are you sure the bolt on your swing arm is torqued to spec? Is your quick release tight?

    I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, I'm just curious. I've never noticed it, and anybody that takes my bike for a spin loves it.

  31. #31
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    I'm with Bubba74 on this one. although the prophet is my first full suspension Ive never felt like the rear wheel was tracking weird or any ghost shifting. And once again with Bubba, my buddies who have rode my prophet thought is was the like a couch it was so plush and ive asked if they felt any flex in the rear end and they always say that they didnt.

  32. #32
    PCC
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedaler845
    I do have a wheel with a thru-axle option, but such a fork might send the weight into the 30's and Im going for 28+.
    The last time I weighed my '05 Pophet 600 it was in the high 26 pound range. Stock frame, Lefty, stem, front derailleur but I changed everything else on it because I was bored and had some spending money to throw at it.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boozzz
    Well, here's what you get on a Cannondale forum. All I can say is, take the gospel of all these worshippers that deify their Prophet on this forum with a grain of salt. I can't deny what I feel, and that is that the rear wheel is all over the place. Oh, by the way, I've been riding it for over 2 years now as well. You don't need to be a hucker to feel it; just ride on any uneven surface ...
    Sorry to sound like I'm talking to a newbie or trying to teach you to suck eggs, But

    Are your tyres too big for the rims or are you running to lower pressure in your tyres? you MAY be experiencing tyre roll! And it feels like flex!

    I'm not saying you can't feel something and I'm not saying that the rear swing arms don't flex at all, if I put a load on my pedal from the side and push, Yes the swing arm AND frame flex but then so does any full susser bike that weighs around 30 lbs, its their design as a light weight trail bike not a FreeRide rig capable of 10 foot gaps.

    Bottom line, its not an issue, to me the bike rides awesome, frame and fork! and any flex is not gonna stop a great days riding.

    I have a buddies with a Spesh Stumpy FSR, Orange 5 S, Scott Genius MC50, Spesh Epic, BMW Enduro, and my father inlaw rides a Jekyl, We all get around the trails in one piece and all at roughly the same time (Save for fitness levels) So I think all the hyper criticalness of, this bikes frame/ swing arm is flexy etc is neither here nor there.

  34. #34
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    The bottom line is that a Prophet frame is a Prophet frame. The characteristics of the frame are the same for everybody who owns one. So the individual perceptions of riders relating to flex is simply the rider's perceptions coupled with the other components on the bike. Most importantly the wheels/tires which might account for felt flex. As far as ghost shifting this might be a drivetrain component problem. I have a Prophet with Mavic 819's and XTR/XT drivetrain and NEVER experience flex or ghost shifting. But that's just MY perception of MY Prophet- your results may vary.

  35. #35
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    This has been discussed in details here:

    Prophet flex help needed.
    2007 Prophet 4 twisty rear end ?

    Those would be a better threads to discuss it and you get more attention from people who perceive this phenomenon.

    This discussion is no longer related to OP's question IMO.

    My 2c.

  36. #36
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    Thanks for the links on flex.

    It seems a Rush with a 120mm fork and no big ring is where this is leading.
    At least if I go the Rush route that way I can start with my headshok and big ring.

  37. #37
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    But that could change tomorrow, Im still split, but now better informed



  38. #38
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    I put 50 miles on a Prophet demo. It had a lefty max, Radium shock, lx dual control, C-dale fire hubs on Mavic 117's/ Trailbear's. Weighs over 30.
    The bike felt heavy with an inefficient feeling rear while climbing (I set the shock slightly under my weight @ 170, minimal sag).

    Was testing the Prophet with a Radium a fair test? The '08 comes with an rp23 and I wonder how much better the bike will pedal?

    Is the wheelbase with a Lefty slightly longer than a conventional fork?


    Im also wondering if 28 pounds is even realistic. Here's the build:
    Crossmax XL's (1800g), 2.1" Nevegals.
    New Fox Talas (about 4 pounds, same as Lefty)
    XT shifting and cranks.
    Thompson post/ Monkeylite carbon bars
    Im sticking with bb7 brakes with light levers/etc.

  39. #39
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    Are you referring to pedal bob?
    I think new shocks and forks stick slightly. This may result in inappropriate air pressure (too low) as the friction doesn't allow for the natural sag. After 50 miles I would recheck sags as the fork and shock should be moving much more freely.
    I am happy with my Radium shock...some say that this is a better shock: http://blur.santacruzbicycles.com/ca...rvmmr8nbspd2l2

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedaler845
    Was testing the Prophet with a Radium a fair test? The '08 comes with an rp23 and I wonder how much better the bike will pedal?

    Is the wheelbase with a Lefty slightly longer than a conventional fork?


    Im also wondering if 28 pounds is even realistic. Here's the build:
    Crossmax XL's (1800g), 2.1" Nevegals.
    New Fox Talas (about 4 pounds, same as Lefty)
    XT shifting and cranks.
    Thompson post/ Monkeylite carbon bars
    Im sticking with bb7 brakes with light levers/etc.
    My Radium rocks for a cheap shock and it is respectively light, but I put a S-Type SPV on it to race. The Prophet works best with very little sag. This is because of the rising rate(the mechanical advantage of the shock reduces throughout the travel hence the shock ratio increases).

    I think the Lefty has a bit (a few millimeters)more offset than a TALAS, but as far as wheelbase goes, this would not be detectable.

    I have an XL Prophet and I got it down to slightly over 27lbs. with a similar build.

    The Prophet takes getting used to. The suspension is more cush than the Jeckel, so you can sit in and climb the most narly technical accents. And on the way down, there is no comparison especially if you had the TPC damping. I think the TALAS would be a great front end as well because you have the option of a lockout which would make out of the saddle efforts very pleasant since the rear end does not move very much unless your are jumping around like a crazy maniac.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedaler845
    I put 50 miles on a Prophet demo. It had a lefty max, Radium shock, lx dual control, C-dale fire hubs on Mavic 117's/ Trailbear's. Weighs over 30.
    The bike felt heavy with an inefficient feeling rear while climbing (I set the shock slightly under my weight @ 170, minimal sag).

    Was testing the Prophet with a Radium a fair test? The '08 comes with an rp23 and I wonder how much better the bike will pedal?

    Is the wheelbase with a Lefty slightly longer than a conventional fork?


    Im also wondering if 28 pounds is even realistic. Here's the build:
    Crossmax XL's (1800g), 2.1" Nevegals.
    New Fox Talas (about 4 pounds, same as Lefty)
    XT shifting and cranks.

    Thompson post/ Monkeylite carbon bars
    Im sticking with bb7 brakes with light levers/etc.
    Under 28 lbs? I think so or a tad above. Mavic does list 1520 gr for the XL wheel set, but those could be "marketing" numbers. My M Prophet sits at 28.5 lbs now with the stock front wheel (not that much heavier than the Crossmax ST I just ordered) and crankset and BB. I have a CK rear with an 819 rim. I have SRAM X9 drive train, but the monkey light bar.
    Last edited by ziscwg; 01-22-2008 at 10:21 AM.
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

  42. #42
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    It was bob, it felt too cush over the rough as I pedaled. It soaked up the bumps, then gave some more with my pedal stroke. My cadence/output was smooth.
    I felt no stiction as the rear went from firm over smooth terrain to overly mushy when I pedaled over rough terrain. The shock and bike was an '06 slightly used demo.

    Do Radium users put more air in than body weight? My final set-up was 15 under my actual weight.

    Mavics' marketing hype of 1521g for the XL must be for the non-disc.

  43. #43
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    Hmm...check the manual again: http://www.cannondale.com/tech_cente...tain_bike.html

    My pressure is way below what the manual says and I do not feel bob. May be the shock is shot?

  44. #44
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    Since most Prophet riders say it pedals great, maybe the shock was shot...or Im the crazy one. I thought the Jekyll pedaled great, especially Pushed.
    I did think the lefty was too soft, which contributed too.

  45. #45
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    Can they put a shock from a different bike at least for some parking lot testing?

  46. #46
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    I'm trying to locate another as well as a Rush for some real world testing.

    The Prophet pedaled fine on smooth terrain, no bob. And felt great over parking lot curbs and such. It was when I put the power down climbing over uneven rocky terrain.

    Too much vertical flex

  47. #47
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    Rush should feel the same...it is pretty much the same bike but different travel.

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    oh jes, those flexy prophets! it was written in so many tests, it must be true.
    SO HERE IS THE FACTS:
    I measured the folowing frames for rear arm side flex as well as the following wheelsets and tires under a force of 400N from the side:
    Prophet: 3mm
    Rush Alu: 3mm
    Perp: 2mm
    Ironhorse 7: 2mm
    stock Rush 600 rear wheel (Mavic XM 117): 17mm
    Mavic EX 729 on Hope Pro 2, DT comp: 2mm
    Maxxis Larsen TT 2.0 on EX 729: 11mm
    Schwalbe Nobby Nic 2.25 on Mavic 112: 15mm
    Michelin C24.1 on EX 229: 6mm

    all tires were tested at 45psi.
    So who will tell me he gets the difference from 1mm flex between a hardcore Freerider
    and a Prophet or Rush when the rest of the back components are flexing between 8mm and 32mm? on stiff downhill rear components its about 10% more flex between Freeride and CC. on light cc rear components its about 3% difference (Perp to Prophet). so who of the flexers can feel these 3 %? so it seems that rear stiffness is more about wheels and tires than anything else.
    just my 2ct.
    CW

  49. #49
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    Is the noodle party here or the next door? LOL! No offense but your post is a copy/paste: 2007 Prophet 4 twisty rear end ?

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    All .02 from Prophet/Rush owners appreciated, send to:

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