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Newer Headshoks with adjustable damping?

5K views 29 replies 6 participants last post by  Walipala 
#1 ·
Hi folks. I searched through this forum but could not find a discussion on the newer Headshoks with the adjustable damping. How well does this work? And how well does it work compared to the Magura CCS? (From what I have read here on this site and on Magura's own forum, their product leaves something to be desired.)

The reason I'm asking is that I own a '02 Scalpel 800 with the now outdated 70mm-travel Headshok. Overall I love this bike. However, if there is one thing I'd really like to fix on it, it would be the lack of adaquate damping in the front suspension. I have already tried swapping to the "thickest" conventional shock oil but it's still to springy for my taste.
 
#2 ·
Walipala said:
Hi folks. I searched through this forum but could not find a discussion on the newer Headshoks with the adjustable damping. How well does this work? And how well does it work compared to the Magura CCS? (From what I have read here on this site and on Magura's own forum, their product leaves something to be desired.)

The reason I'm asking is that I own a '02 Scalpel 800 with the now outdated 70mm-travel Headshok. Overall I love this bike. However, if there is one thing I'd really like to fix on it, it would be the lack of adaquate damping in the front suspension. I have already tried swapping to the "thickest" conventional shock oil but it's still to springy for my taste.
A few thoughts. How much do you weigh? I'm surprised you need more that that thick shim. Did they thicken the oil viscosity up from stock 2.5? Go to 15 wieght oil, and you'll have snail like rebound unless you weigh like 300 lbs=:) You can do a fork trade in, and get a newer one for what amounts to 20 to 30% off retail, not too bad a deal, really. I would not expect that yours would be retrofittable, if that's what you were gunning for! Good luck!
 
#3 ·
I weigh about 170#. I believe I've tried 5w at one point, and now it's got 7w. As it is currently though, there's seems to be very little resistence to rebound... even with the air pressure set to less than 100psi, which I've done solely for testing this. I can hear oil go "squish" when I compress and release the suspension, but it still snaps back much more quickly than when similar tests are run on my friends' Lefty Jake, RS Duke forks, Fox, etc. This seat-o-the-pants experiment tells me that my Headshok's damping is still relatively weak.

I know I cannot retrofit the newer parts into my head tube, which is unfortunate. I guess my alternatives are:

1. Live with it.
2. Try even thinker oil.
3. Open it up and make sure there isn't a problem with the valving.
4 Upgrade to a newer Headshok (and deal with funky mismatching paint/graphics*).
5. Swap over completely to a conventional fork, like Fox.

* Regarding #4, I don't suppose Cannondale would color and graphics match a newer fork to the original scheme? That seems very doubtful... unless the customer was willing to pay a lot more $$ and wait lord knows how long for it to be done.
 
#4 ·
Walipala said:
I weigh about 170#. I believe I've tried 5w at one point, and now it's got 7w. As it is currently though, there's seems to be very little resistence to rebound... even with the air pressure set to less than 100psi, which I've done solely for testing this. I can hear oil go "squish" when I compress and release the suspension, but it still snaps back much more quickly than when similar tests are run on my friends' Lefty Jake, RS Duke forks, Fox, etc. This seat-o-the-pants experiment tells me that my Headshok's damping is still relatively weak.
Well, it sounds as though you have a damping valve issue. Where you are with it, especially at 100 psi, it should be crawling back up. Sounds like you can open thisd yourself, I would highly recommend looking deeper, or have a good mechanic figure out what's up. Matching graphics, mmm, no, not gonna happen=:)
 
#7 ·
Walipala said:
Anyone here happen to know what the general damping characteristics of the Ultra Fatty 70mm fork is, valving wise? Meaning, is it designed to be 50/50 rebound and compression, or is it more one than the other?
So with an Ultra, it should have the 5 position damping dial, and if so, it is independantly tuneable, rebound and compression. The DLR types were only tuneable via the shimstack for rebound. Factory set should be 50/50 in the Ultra, there are at least 3 thicknesses to work with, and as I said, with oil, they can go really slowly. Your's is damaged in some way. The lack of adequate rebound indicates that. There are a ton of these out there, and this is not a commonly heard compliant, at least until something is broken=:)

Kona, You cannot trade it in FOR a new one, you can trade it in TOWARDS a new one. Generally about 20 to 30% off retail. Cheers!
 
#8 ·
MendonCycleSmith said:
So with an Ultra, it should have the 5 position damping dial, and if so, it is independantly tuneable, rebound and compression. The DLR types were only tuneable via the shimstack for rebound. Factory set should be 50/50 in the Ultra, there are at least 3 thicknesses to work with, and as I said, with oil, they can go really slowly. Your's is damaged in some way. The lack of adequate rebound indicates that. There are a ton of these out there, and this is not a commonly heard compliant, at least until something is broken=:)
First of all, thanks again for your input.

I'm not sure what you mean by 5-position dial. Is that an internal piece? Obviously there is no external control over the damping with my fork. FWIW, I bought my bike new and its damping characteristics have always been this way. I've lived with it but I have always wanted to improve it.

Right now I have dropped the air pressure down to about 80 psi so that it compresses really easily. Upon un-weighting it, even this 'weakened' spring expands pretty darn quickly. I would not say it's un-damped, but it is definely under-damped. So you think a competent Cannondale mechanic will know all about these shims and how to modify the compression and rebound characteristics? That would be nice and well worth the money if it can be done correctly.

Just for the heck of it I attached a picture of my bike. It's an unusual color, "Kale", which was only offered for a couple of years. I really like it -- and the matching fork-and-frame look. I would hate to deviate from it with this bike so I want to do whatever I can to improve the existing system.
 

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#9 ·
Walipala said:
I'm not sure what you mean by 5-position dial. So you think a competent Cannondale mechanic will know all about these shims and how to modify the compression and rebound characteristics?
Okay, you have an 80mm fork, unless I am out of my mind. It is a lockout, not a 5 pos damper. Does the lockout work? Sounds like you have no oil in there. A competent Cannondale mechanic can fix it, but it sounds as though (if you have been dealing with a shop thus far) that they do not employ such a mechanic. They can send it in to Cannondale, but I chafe at that, since shops are simply afraid of them, and in being such, it ties up alot of high end bikes that need not be. So, I don't support that approach, but it is, what it is. I also offer service on these, but I am not advocating for your business. Good luck!
 
#10 · (Edited)
Mine's just a 2002 model---no dampng adjustment. It is spec'd as having the HeadShok Fatty Ultra DL. I would be very happy to find that I do have an 80mm fork though. I thought just the "Super Ultra Fatties" were 80mm. Mine just says "Ultra" on the legs. Is there a definitive way to tell which is which (without measuring compressed length, which is difficult to do accurately.) I vaguely recall reading that the longer travel version has a shallower recess underneath, where the air valve is located? Or is it the other way around?

Mine is definitely full of oil though. The lockout works great, with no clunkiness or 'play' once engaged, which means it's full of oil and properly bled of air, correct?

If mine is an 80mm, would it be possible to just swap in the guts of the newer adjustable-damping Headshok?

BTW, I would have no reservations about taking it to you, but you are 3000 miles away from me. I would rather find a shop here in San Diego. I know a couple of mechanics with Headshok experience. I just haven't talked to them in a while. Hopefully they are still around.
 
#11 ·
Walipala said:
I would be very happy to find that I do have an 80mm fork though. I thought just the "Super Ultra Fatties" were 80mm. Mine just says "Ultra" on the legs. Mine is definitely full of oil though. The lockout works great, with no clunkiness or 'play' once engaged, which means it's full of oil and properly bled of air, correct?If mine is an 80mm, would it be possible to just swap in the guts of the newer adjustable-damping Headshok?
It's an 80. In 02, that was all they did. The Super designation was to call out the fact that it was 80, when there was still 70's. At that point, there were no 70's, yippee for you, it's an 80=:) As to mechanics, by all means, if you know one, hit them up, there is an issue in there, as I said before, just going to a heavy oil (no re shimming) should have a dramatic impact, if it hasn't, well, there it is!. You are correct, if the lockout is complete, the oil level is fine. Go git 'em!
 
#13 ·
Well I found a mechanic at a shop in town that's familiar with Headshoks, has the tools, and would be happy to inspect it and replace the oil with whatever might be better. He said 10w is the highest he ever goes with these. I want to have him inspect the innards to see if anything is amiss too.

I asked him about the shim aspect of damping you mentioned, but he indicated that "the shim thing" would be more of a problem to deal with. Is there typically a delay in obtaining the necessary pieces? That is the impression I got from our conversation.
 
#14 ·
Walipala said:
I asked him about the shim aspect of damping you mentioned, but he indicated that "the shim thing" would be more of a problem to deal with. Is there typically a delay in obtaining the necessary pieces? That is the impression I got from our conversation.
Excellent! The shims are something that most shops don't carry, as 99% of folks are happy with the stock damping, and a bit of oil viscosity takes care of those who need a bit more or less. The shims are available through Cannondale should you need them though. I'm curious, did he feel your fork, and have any thoughts, as to your impression of it? Good luck!
 
#15 ·
MendonCycleSmith said:
I'm curious, did he feel your fork, and have any thoughts, as to your impression of it? Good luck!
Actually, I'd only spoken to him over the phone when I wrote the previous post. However, I just got back from his shop (and left my bike there for him to service). He did give it the old push-push-push test on the bars---I'd kept the pressure low, like at 80psi.

Although he was pretty adamant about not drawing conclusions based solely on just 'feeling' the shock, he didn't like the top-out "clunk"; he thinks there might be air in the cartridge. He seemed pretty busy at the moment so I didn't want to bug him too much, but when I asked his opinion of the overall performance he finally said that it appears to have "no damping control at all". He won't actually get to working on it until tomorrow. We'll see.
 
#16 ·
70mm

This actually will be 70mm fork. However, the workings are very similar to the 80mm. The piston and shimming is the same.

As mentioned, have the shims checked out. More than likely, they are cracked fro use and the damper just needs rebuilt. The shop should also reset the bearings while the damper is out.
 
#18 ·
MendonCycleSmith said:
70mm...in 2002? You sure?
Actually, I'd done more searching of these forums since starting this thread. According to a few people, The Ultra didn't go to 80mm until 2003. (I actually bought my bike as a year-old in 2003, saving a pile of money, but I knew nothing of Headshoks at the time.)

I'm okay with 70mm I guess. It dashes my dreams of someday swapping the internals with a Magura CCS or C'dale's own newer parts but that's the way it goes. I'd really just be happy to have my modest 70mm fork working at its full potential.
 
#20 ·
I got my bike back from the shop yesterday. The mechanic said the oil was just bad... brown in color. Guess that stuff breaks down even in a bicycle shock? He said all the internal pieces looked fine though. He filled it with 15w oil.

I have to say, the damping seems a little better than before, but not hugely differerent... not when running my primitive tests anyway. I would have thought going from broken down 7w oil to fresh 15w would be more noticable. The mechanic assured me though that the damping is "completely different" in nature from before. I'll have to actually take it out on a ride before passing judgement.
 
#21 ·
Walipala said:
I got my bike back from the shop yesterday. The mechanic said the oil was just bad... brown in color. Guess that stuff breaks down even in a bicycle shock? He said all the internal pieces looked fine though. He filled it with 15w oil.

I have to say, the damping seems a little better than before, but not hugely differerent... not when running my primitive tests anyway. I would have thought going from broken down 7w oil to fresh 15w would be more noticable. The mechanic assured me though that the damping is "completely different" in nature from before. I'll have to actually take it out on a ride before passing judgement.
Cool, did he reset the bearing migration too? If so, the top out clunk will be gone too. With 15 wt it should be fine, slow even. How slow are you expecting? It should not take time to come back up, just slow it down so it does not snap up like a super ball.
 
#22 ·
Ithink you have air in the cartridge.

when filling it there must be no airspace at the top of the cartridge. Also move the shaft up and down a few times to get any trapped air out.

15W oil should provide for a very slow rebound. I ran 7.5 wt in my Headshok Fatty Ultra 70 and this was incredibly slow for the first 10 hrs then perfect for about 20, after which the rebound degraded signalling an oil change is needed.

The DL70 cartridge is know for working the oil very very hard.
 
#23 ·
MendonCycleSmith said:
Cool, did he reset the bearing migration too? If so, the top out clunk will be gone too. With 15 wt it should be fine, slow even. How slow are you expecting? It should not take time to come back up, just slow it down so it does not snap up like a super ball.
I asked the guy if he did anything with the bearings. He said he didn't see a need to mess with them.

Reading Brad's post makes me want to ask: Just how difficult is it to change the oil (and do a perfect job of it) in a Headshok? Is this something I could do at home, or does it take special skill and hard-to-obtain tools?
 
#24 ·
Walipala said:
I asked the guy if he did anything with the bearings. He said he didn't see a need to mess with them.

Reading Brad's post makes me want to ask: Just how difficult is it to change the oil (and do a perfect job of it) in a Headshok? Is this something I could do at home, or does it take special skill and hard-to-obtain tools?
Sorry, but the guy sounds like he doesn't do much with them, or he's really lazy. If any Cannondale fork came into my shop, it was clunking upon topout, and I had to pull the cartridge, or otherwise get into the fork, I would do a reset, automatically. It involves a tool, screwed into place, about 15 seconds of agressively up-slamming the fork, unscewing of the tool, done. It's stupid not to do it, since the cartridge was out, was clunking, and takes no time at all, no "didn't see an need" about it. The oil change will require a Castle tool from Cannondale (I, or your local dealer can get you one), and a green Park pin spanner. If you have no mechanical ability, this will suck. If you like tools, and have a bit of patience, it's pretty easy.
 
#25 ·
MendonCycleSmith said:
Sorry, but the guy sounds like he doesn't do much with them, or he's really lazy. If any Cannondale fork came into my shop, it was clunking upon topout, and I had to pull the cartridge, or otherwise get into the fork, I would do a reset, automatically. It involves a tool, screwed into place, about 15 seconds of agressively up-slamming the fork, unscewing of the tool, done. It's stupid not to do it, since the cartridge was out, was clunking, and takes no time at all, no "didn't see an need" about it. The oil change will require a Castle tool from Cannondale (I, or your local dealer can get you one), and a green Park pin spanner. If you have no mechanical ability, this will suck. If you like tools, and have a bit of patience, it's pretty easy.
Yeah, I must say, he wasn't the friendliest mechanic I've ever dealt with and I am sure you are right regarding what could/should have been done. Live and learn. I do know of a couple other places that can service it. I only went to that shop because I knew a great mechanic who had worked there but recently moved away. I thought I'd try them anyway.

Do I like tools? Who doesn't? Plus, I just like doing things myself if I can. Allow me to give you an example. This year I decided it was time to finally fix the bodywork and put a coat of paint on my old truck (IHC Scout II). I ruled out taking to a regular bodyshop because they'd no doubt charge me thousands of dollars... or I'd get a sloppy paint job that I would learn to hate over a short period of time. Long story short, after doing a great amount of research I decide I'd procure the tools and materials and do the job myself.

I fixed the bodywork (mainly just a rippled q-panel), sanded and prepped the Scout's entire surface, and painted the thing in my driveway. I don't know if you've ever tackled this kind of job, but there's a LOT more to it than just buying a spray gun and a compressor. It's taken me about six months, but I am pretty pleased with how it turned out. Like I said, I just like doing things myself when I can. (I also rebuilt my first car's engine for similar reasons.)

Anyway, buying another bike tool or two seems laughably do-able if the job itself easy to learn. Learning's how correctly would the the key. It sure would be nice to watch someone do it. As part of my paint-job research I bought a couple of how-to-paint-your-own-car DVDs that were extremely helpful. I don't suppose anyone's done anything like this for servicing Cannondales?

Just for the heck of it, how much do those castle tools cost? (The spanner would be easy to get locally.)
 
#26 ·
?

Does the fork have ANY rebound damping at all?

I'm leaning towards a bearing reset and more than likely a damper rebuild. I'm thinking that the shims are cracked. The bike is nearly 5 years old and it is common for these to wear out.

As for the air in the damper, a small amount is actually OK. This allows the oil to expand when it heats up. A small amount of air will not cause the damper to top out harshly.
 
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