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  1. #1
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    Look what I found! (Rize rear suspension creak elated).

    My 09 Rize Two Carbon was exhibiting some nasty rear suspension creak, so I broke it all down today and look what I discovered. The Upper Seat Stay bearings and pivot bolts and shield washers were toast! I looked up the replacement kit part numbers and emailed C-Dale Customer Support for pricing and availability. I sure hope my Seat Stay bores are not toast. I would hate to think what a new seat stay would cost direct from Cannondale. The manual supplement says they are slip fit bearings that use Loctite 638 to adhere to the bores in the seat stay. The problem is the bearings were so disintegrated that the pivot bolts wore down on the bottoms of the Inside edges of the bores on the seat stay. Anyone ever replace these bearings before and care to give me an opinion?


    http://s579.photobucket.com/albums/s...t=IMG_1677.jpg

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  2. #2
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    I had a similar problem on one side of the seatstay. You have to keep an eye on those blots after every ride check and make sure they stay tight. What happens is they come loose during a ride (long and rough like Downieville or similar) and allow dirt into the bearing and also mess up the bearing seal.

    If this happens to you check the bearing and make sure it is still moving smoothly and the seal isn't messed up. Just tightening or reapplying loctite to the bolt and reinstalling may not solve the problem if the bearing is really messed up. What happens if the bearing is not working smoothly it will sieze and instead of working properly it will break the bolt loose and that is not good. That is where you see the edges of the bolt all messed up.

    Replacement of the bearing is quite easy and Cannondale has a tech bulletin found here http://www.cannondale.com/usa/usaeng..._122175_en.pdf.

    My bearing and bolt were not as bad as yours when I replaced mine. I could not get the parts from Cannondale fast enough to replace it before Downieville so I only replaced the bad side. The shop had one bearing and I just reused the messed up bolt. Use liberal amounts on loctite 683 on the outside bearing surface and seatstay surface. I also recommend using loctite red on the bolts to ensure they will not work loose durning a ride again.

  3. #3
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    It's a high stress area and prone to wear, damage, fatique etc. This bike had maybe 10 hours from the time the bolt was inspected until the failure noticed. I'm not sure how many hours it was ridden with the damage but it was found after (by my best guess) 5 hours or less.
    Broken Pivot-Seatstay
    All out of S**** and down to my last F***
    I think I strained a pucker muscle

  4. #4
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    You always have to keep on eye on those bolts. I have a bunch spare parts for my Rize just in case anything like this happen. You need a new bolts link kit #KP072, bearings #KP073 and Loctite 638. If you need anything just let me know

  5. #5
    gmk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elzippo
    My 09 Rize Two Carbon was exhibiting some nasty rear suspension creak, so I broke it all down today and look what I discovered. The Upper Seat Stay bearings and pivot bolts and shield washers were toast! I looked up the replacement kit part numbers and emailed C-Dale Customer Support for pricing and availability. I sure hope my Seat Stay bores are not toast. I would hate to think what a new seat stay would cost direct from Cannondale. The manual supplement says they are slip fit bearings that use Loctite 638 to adhere to the bores in the seat stay. The problem is the bearings were so disintegrated that the pivot bolts wore down on the bottoms of the Inside edges of the bores on the seat stay. Anyone ever replace these bearings before and care to give me an opinion?


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    i would go for a guarantee issue from cannondale
    the alloy in the carbon seatstays look terrible - where the bearings "loctited" in (last pic i think <- push )!

    i hope my rize looks better there
    i only had problems with the main pivot
    disassembling - cleaning - some glue in it and
    its quite over ~2000km
    Last edited by gmk; 07-18-2010 at 03:19 AM.

    "Show your bike some love and it will show the love back."
    Eric, niner bikes

    the most important vehicle is a 29er bicycle

  6. #6
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    Thanks for the info.

    I called my local dealer yesterday and gave them my KP hit list.
    Hopefully Cannondale has the parts in stock and the dealer is competent enough to order them correctly and quickly. I'll post a followup as soon as I get and install the new parts.


  7. #7
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    Seat Stays are back ordered

    Just heard from my dealer and the carbon seat stays in black with white lettering are back ordered. To further rub salt in the wound they are $200 a pop. If you own a Rize make dam sure you inspect and service the upper bearings on the Seat Stay, they're the ones that are subjected to the majority or the wear and tear.

    Rize less.

  8. #8
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    That looks like the outer race in the bore. I know the bearings are shot, but your seat stays might be OK. That piece with the groove in your seat stay bore is the outer race of the disintegrated bearing. It should come out and hopefully the seat stay is good for another bearing.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prophet Julio
    That looks like the outer race in the bore. I know the bearings are shot, but your seat stays might be OK. That piece with the groove in your seat stay bore is the outer race of the disintegrated bearing. It should come out and hopefully the seat stay is good for another bearing.
    Yeah the races did pop out with a little heat and motivation from the proper direction(14mm socket on an extension pushing from inside to out). I have the bearings and bolt kit coming first, I will try them on the old seat stay and see what happens.

    Elzippo

  10. #10
    Just a flesh wound
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    You'll be back in the saddle in no time. Those bearings are probably a standard size and good ones can be bought at a bearing store. If you bring the outer race to a bearing supplier, they can probably match it with a good German or Japanese sealed bearing that will last longer.

  11. #11
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    Ok got the parts from my local dealer. $90 for bearings, bolts, spacers and a 10ml bottle of locktite 628. What is this stuff made of gold???

    I've got the new parts all installed per the service manual , just waiting the recommended 24hrs for the bearing retaining locktite to cure up before my first test ride. Everything appears to be seated correctly and installed without issues, and the worn inner edges of the upper seat stay alloy bores do not appear to effect anything, Hopefully this does the trick and I won't have to splurge for a new seat stay. Stay tuned.

  12. #12
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    I have been told by the Cannondale "tech" support children, Dealer Mechanic and Cannondale Rep, that cannondale knew about the problem of the bearings becoming loose due to an error in assembly where Loctite 242 (blue) rather than Loctite 638 was used to bond the bearings onto the aluminum sleeve inside the carbon seat stays.
    Cannondale chose to let these bikes into the market place with the defect, rather than at least instruct their dealers to rectify the problem. My Rize 3 is a 2009,(fifth Cannondale) bought August of this year, that is plenty of time to fix things,don't you think. In doing so Cannondale opted to put their customers at risk, and certainly their reputation as well. To make things worse, they let the reps which are generally technically challenged (but hyper and aggressive, cocky and disrespectful) deal with technical issues which they do not understand, and in some cases care to understand. This results in for example: My dealer's mechanic assuring me that the play on the rear pivots between the carbon seat stays and aluminum swing arm (chain stays) was "DESIGNED" in, to allow for flexing during cornering for better handling!!!
    No one specs bearings on a pivot and then wants lateral play in the assembly, reason being, if there is lateral play it means the assembly is pivoting around the bolt, in this case made out of aluminum, leaving the bearings to operate as a bushing, and the bolt as an axle. The end result is evident in the pictures, chewed up pivot bolt.
    In this assembly design choice, the pivot bolt function is to "clamp the inner race", in the case of the outer race, they chose to carry out this function by "gluing" the outer race to the molded-in sleeve inside the carbon seat stay.
    The whole assembly is just a weak engineering effort, and even if the loctite manages to secure the outer race, there is not a mechanism built in the assembly, that adjusts the bearing play, leaving the bearing even more vulnerable to side loads, so do not expect the bearings to last long.
    For this assembly design choice, ( or after thought) to be viable, self centering bearings should have been at least, speced, these have two rows of ball bearings and deep groves, making them better able to handle side loads. The best choice of bearings would have been lateral contact bearings, both of the later types are expensive.
    Worth mentioning is that in some cases I have seen the play is there even though the bearing's outer race is firmly held in place by the loctite, these cases could be resolved by shimming the assembly inside its "socket" ( welded aluminum bracket or tabernacle on the chain stays), but the rep insisted on removing the bearing and re-gluing it, what if the bearing in those cases are glued with the 638? and suffering from excessive play from shitty manufacturing, How many times does cannondale expect an owner to replace these bearings prior to having to get a whole new carbon seat stay assembly? Have you read the bulletin on removing bearing, cleaning the sleeve and re- bonding a new bearing.
    The bulletin calls for the use of a wire brush to clean the sleeve which is aluminum, this not only for cleaning but also to give the sleeve some "grain" making the loctite adhere better ( this loctite is likely just an epoxy ). I am sure the answer to this is just enough to get the bikes out of warranty. Lets hope that when that happens there will be carbon seat stay replacements for the Rize, but I guess they will not be cheap.
    All of these dumb choices are a shame, since the bike design is pretty good and I really love the bike, but most definitely the whole experience, especially being yelled at by the sales rep while his head was firmly lodged inside his rectum, and while my intention was to enlighten him about the issues, has left me with a bad taste in my mouth, and frankly considering demanding a refund and saving my self a lot of hassles and expenses in the future.
    Here is the bulletin:
    http://www.cannondale.com/usa/usaeng..._122175_en.pdf


    You can get the bearings for the rear suspension here.

    6800 series
    http://www.mcmaster.com/#ball-and-ro...arings/=8jjjzq

    6902
    http://www.mcmaster.com/#ball-and-ro...arings/=8jjo8n

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patagrande
    I have been told by the Cannondale "tech" support children, Dealer Mechanic and Cannondale Rep, that cannondale knew about the problem of the bearings becoming loose due to an error in assembly where Loctite 242 (blue) rather than Loctite 638 was used to bond the bearings onto the aluminum sleeve inside the carbon seat stays.
    Cannondale chose to let these bikes into the market place with the defect, rather than at least instruct their dealers to rectify the problem. My Rize 3 is a 2009,(fifth Cannondale) bought August of this year, that is plenty of time to fix things,don't you think. In doing so Cannondale opted to put their customers at risk, and certainly their reputation as well. To make things worse, they let the reps which are generally technically challenged (but hyper and aggressive, cocky and disrespectful) deal with technical issues which they do not understand, and in some cases care to understand. This results in for example: My dealer's mechanic assuring me that the play on the rear pivots between the carbon seat stays and aluminum swing arm (chain stays) was "DESIGNED" in, to allow for flexing during cornering for better handling!!!
    No one specs bearings on a pivot and then wants lateral play in the assembly, reason being, if there is lateral play it means the assembly is pivoting around the bolt, in this case made out of aluminum, leaving the bearings to operate as a bushing, and the bolt as an axle. The end result is evident in the pictures, chewed up pivot bolt.
    In this assembly design choice, the pivot bolt function is to "clamp the inner race", in the case of the outer race, they chose to carry out this function by "gluing" the outer race to the molded-in sleeve inside the carbon seat stay.
    The whole assembly is just a weak engineering effort, and even if the loctite manages to secure the outer race, there is not a mechanism built in the assembly, that adjusts the bearing play, leaving the bearing even more vulnerable to side loads, so do not expect the bearings to last long.
    For this assembly design choice, ( or after thought) to be viable, self centering bearings should have been at least, speced, these have two rows of ball bearings and deep groves, making them better able to handle side loads. The best choice of bearings would have been lateral contact bearings, both of the later types are expensive.
    Worth mentioning is that in some cases I have seen the play is there even though the bearing's outer race is firmly held in place by the loctite, these cases could be resolved by shimming the assembly inside its "socket" ( welded aluminum bracket or tabernacle on the chain stays), but the rep insisted on removing the bearing and re-gluing it, what if the bearing in those cases are glued with the 638? and suffering from excessive play from shitty manufacturing, How many times does cannondale expect an owner to replace these bearings prior to having to get a whole new carbon seat stay assembly? Have you read the bulletin on removing bearing, cleaning the sleeve and re- bonding a new bearing.
    The bulletin calls for the use of a wire brush to clean the sleeve which is aluminum, this not only for cleaning but also to give the sleeve some "grain" making the loctite adhere better ( this loctite is likely just an epoxy ). I am sure the answer to this is just enough to get the bikes out of warranty. Lets hope that when that happens there will be carbon seat stay replacements for the Rize, but I guess they will not be cheap.
    All of these dumb choices are a shame, since the bike design is pretty good and I really love the bike, but most definitely the whole experience, especially being yelled at by the sales rep while his head was firmly lodged inside his rectum, and while my intention was to enlighten him about the issues, has left me with a bad taste in my mouth, and frankly considering demanding a refund and saving my self a lot of hassles and expenses in the future.
    Here is the bulletin:
    http://www.cannondale.com/usa/usaeng..._122175_en.pdf


    You can get the bearings for the rear suspension here.

    6800 series
    http://www.mcmaster.com/#ball-and-ro...arings/=8jjjzq

    6902
    http://www.mcmaster.com/#ball-and-ro...arings/=8jjo8n

    I'm sure you were just riding along when all this wear and tear happened . **** wears out on off road bikes. Its a 25 hour replacement schedule.

    Given the statement that the bearings are a slip fit and not a press fit, this would tend to explain the statement :

    "My dealer's mechanic assuring me that the play on the rear pivots between the carbon seat stays and aluminum swing arm (chain stays) was "DESIGNED" in, to allow for flexing during cornering for better handling!!! "

    If you are that unimpressed with the bike and the service received you should demand a refund and contact the local Better Business Bureau . Grow some balls instead of griping about it on the internet.

  14. #14
    Ancient Astronaut
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    A respectfull response to Mr. badboyNY

    The bike has 40 miles on it, it was bought two weeks ago.
    I am not a mountain acrobat, I have used the bike lightly.

    Could you please clarify what point you are trying to make when you mention slip fit versus press fit?

    I never said locking the outer race using Loctite is unacceptable, that is not the issue.( it does seam like you think so)
    Its common acceptable practice, I have used it so secure engine sleeves (the correct one for that application).
    One issue is that they (being the two tech support guys, Lars and Brandon, the first mechanic I spoke with at my dealer, and the area rep), told me they knew about the mistake of using 242 versus 638, then why sell me the bike, and have me endure the 3.5 hour trip back to the dealer and the down time when they could have fixed the problem when the problem was discovered.
    There are several threads with people experiencing the same issue.

    Now please explain to me why a series 6800 bearing is a good choice in an area subjected to not only axial loads but also torsional and side loads. If you know something I do not know, please share your knowledge. Is it not true that bearings have play, and that at least that has to able to be adjusted, is it not true that being unable to control that play will lead to a shortened lifecycle? Do you ride you bike with a loose headset, bottom bracket and hubs?
    Are you in disagreement that the 6800 bearing is designed for applications subjected primarily to axial loads?

    Do you disagree that is likely that with every change of bearings the sleeve will suffer some damage, aluminum is soft, do you believe that wire brushing the sleeve will not lead to enlargement of the ID? Do you not believe that the larger and possibly less concentric ID after wire brushing, will not lead to the replacement bearings not seating square, do you not believe that with every replacement more of the gap filling compound will be used, do you believe that the compound is a hard as aluminum, and therefore will not affect rigidity which if undermined will lead to further increasing torsional loads, and do you then disagree that eventually it is likely the the carbon seat stays might need replacement.

    Look I followed the chain of command, your response is over aggressive just like that of the rep, who ruined my relationship with what I felt was the best bike shop I had ever dealt with, and pretty much destroyed my faith in Cannondale which I consider the most innovative and best bicycle company, offering what amounts to the few real choices left.
    I am not out to hurt anyone, on the contrary, I hope this helps them.

    The easiest thing would have been for the issue to have been fixed, the rep to stick to selling. I am relating this in a factual and honest way, and yes it is my opinion alone, so instead of acting the same way as the person who is pretty much responsible for the problem, why do you not express your opinion. If you disagree, then prove me wrong, teach me, I love to expand my knowledge.

    BTW, I just talked to someone at Cannondale in CT who was very efficient and promptly routed me to the cannondale customer service chief whom I am waiting to hear from.

    You can be assured that I will do everything possible to avoid having to return my bike, but I will certainly will look for assurances that my bike will not be obsolete in two years time, Having just been told today when I requested to speak with an engineer, that there are none available, that they are in Asia, furthers my fears that when I need parts for this bike in particular, there might not be there, why is that unreasonable. I continue to this day riding my 21 yeard old full rigid Cannondale, and yes I do think that it would be unreasonable for me to expect the same life out of the Rize which has more moving parts, but I think it would be reasonable to ask that Cannnondale ensures that those of us who have invested in their company have the opportunity to continue being ambassadors to their technologies and innovations by proudly riding and displaying functional bikes for which we need not have to make excuses. Just fix it its not that hard, and it will likely be cheaper and teach you about your customers, some of whom have been loyal for 21 years.

    People with legitimate concerns create progress, bullies just deprive us of real choices, deprive people of real creative occupation opportunities, and further send society into a deadly spiral, so use your brain in this forum, I am sure you have one, and save your muscles for riding uphill.

    Best to you all.

  15. #15
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    Mr P, i didn't mean to be particularly aggressive and i am sorry if it came over that way ,but if i was in the same position and they could not offer a prompt acceptable and durable fix , I would want my money back or a replacement bike but that's me, especially if you have only put 25 miles on it.

    I wouldn't let the issue with Cannondale spoil your relationship with your LBS, although i personally feel from a lot of the issues I see on this site that if the LBS' had more backbone in the way they deal with the manufacturer there would be less issues for the customers.

    My understanding of a slip fit would have the bearing being located into the fitting with some clearance , say 20 thousandth of an inch , into the fitting and then it is secured into place by the Loctite. The Loctite would then "give" under stress allowing some flex in the design of the component.

    A press fit would require pressure to locate the bearing into the fitting and would not allow adequate free space for application of the Loctite in a sufficient amount to secure the bearing.

    I don't believe the guidance expects you to ream out the fitting with a wire brush, the document tells you to clean out the residual Loctite. I think that guidance should have specified a brass wire brush as it would do significantly less damage than a steel brush to the aluminum.

    As an aside I am not down on Cannondale ,I have two of them ,including a Rize 3, and another on order.

  16. #16
    Ancient Astronaut
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    After talking with an engineer and although I have yet to carry out our plan for a better diagnosis, I am 100% sure that Cannondale will take care of it. what ever the problem ends up being.
    Apparently there is some misinformation at different places within Cannondale, which leads some people there to think that all engineers are gone, but there is a whole 20 man team of engineers that I am confident will continue to create innovative bikes for us to ride. There apparently were some minor issues which have been resolved, and what is most important to me is that I can trust these guys to do the right thing.
    The 6800 is indeed a deep groove bearing and does not require the adjustment to function properly.
    As far a the rep is concerned, I cannot help it but to think he acted like a male chicken, but he is forgiven.

    Faith restored, happy customer will know proceed to go riding.

    Best to all!

  17. #17
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    Patagrande,

    Don't even listen to that moron "BadBoyNY". You gave him a complete and free lesson in mechanical design engineering and he chose to thumb his NYC nose at it so he is a complete moron. He probably works for Cannondale.

    Thanks for the information and story. I love the part where you harp on C-dale for their choice in reps and you hit the stereotype right on the head. These guys suck.

    I have been a Cannondale MTB fan for over 20 years now. I still love my Rize regardless of the BS with it and it's inherently flawed rear suspension bearing design. So I am now looking at other brands for the future. $30 for a bottle of 638 from C-dale! When they tried to rip me off by using 242 and couldn't get a back bone to own up to the their mistake. They are out of their minds. Dummies all of them.

    Elzippo.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elzippo
    Patagrande,

    Don't even listen to that moron "BadBoyNY". You gave him a complete and free lesson in mechanical design engineering and he chose to thumb his NYC nose at it so he is a complete moron. He probably works for Cannondale.

    Thanks for the information and story. I love the part where you harp on C-dale for their choice in reps and you hit the stereotype right on the head. These guys suck.

    I have been a Cannondale MTB fan for over 20 years now. I still love my Rize regardless of the BS with it and it's inherently flawed rear suspension bearing design. So I am now looking at other brands for the future. $30 for a bottle of 638 from C-dale! When they tried to rip me off by using 242 and couldn't get a back bone to own up to the their mistake. They are out of their minds. Dummies all of them.

    Elzippo.
    I don't think i received a lesson in ME at all, you were obviously reading a different thread

    Perhaps you should zip it.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadBoyNY
    I don't think i received a lesson in ME at all, you were obviously reading a different thread

    Perhaps you should zip it.

    Yeah you did! LOL! No mistake, right thread. You've been tutored!

    Cannondale wouldn't have went with a new through axle pivot design on the 2011 Jekyll re-issue if the Rize/RZ slip fit bearing design was even legit:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNVuQoVVqBQ


    Elzippo

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elzippo
    Yeah you did! LOL! No mistake, right thread. You've been tutored!

    Cannondale wouldn't have went with a new through axle pivot design on the 2011 Jekyll re-issue if the Rize/RZ slip fit bearing design was even legit:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNVuQoVVqBQ


    Elzippo
    I saw the Jekyll three months ago in person and its not really the same bike or frame or similar to a Rize/RZ....different bike for different conditions.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elzippo
    Sigh "It doesn't ride like an over 25lb bike."

    Makes me feel like I have an inferior bike.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuan
    Sigh "It doesn't ride like an over 25lb bike."

    Makes me feel like I have an inferior bike.
    Actually they said "Complete bike is build-able under 25lbs"

    Put a carbon lefty on it and it will be even less.
    I want one!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elzippo
    Actually they said "Complete bike is build-able under 25lbs"

    Put a carbon lefty on it and it will be even less.
    I want one!
    It's a beautiful bike and it climbs and rides well , I commend you on your choice.

    But you should be careful though, it's a Cannondale and something is bound to break on it eventually.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadBoyNY
    It's a beautiful bike and it climbs and rides well , I commend you on your choice.

    But you should be careful though, it's a Cannondale and something is bound to break on it eventually.
    Doubt it... as they did the pivots right this time (through axle), unlike that bearing design abortion on the Rize/RZ.
    Smart ass.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elzippo
    Doubt it... as they did the pivots right this time (through axle), unlike that bearing design abortion on the Rize/RZ.
    Smart ass.

    It would be interesting to study possible replacement of the screw shaft by a trainee in our Rize / Rz

    (sorry use google translator)

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