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  1. #1
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    Cannondale Rush vs. Orbea Occam

    Am I dreaming or the Orbea engineers just "reinvented the FS bike" and created a bicycle that looks exactly like a Cannondale Rush w/o a Lefty?
    BTW, this remembers me the suspicious similarity between the old Scalpel and the Orbea Oiz model.
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    Last edited by schuster_md; 09-20-2007 at 07:30 PM.

  2. #2
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    interesting observation

    Maybe Orbea likes to bite Cannondales style?

  3. #3
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    I noticed that too, first with the Oiz but when I saw the Occam, I was almost laughing alone in front of my computer, I mean, even the rear derailleur cable routing is copied... It's flattering though, at least they copy nice, good bikes but then they throw it all away with flimsy SIDs up front...

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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by schuster_md
    Am I dreaming or the Orbea engineers just "reinvented the FS bike" and created a bicycle that looks exactly like a Cannondale Rush w/o a Lefty?
    BTW, this remembers me the suspicious similarity between the old Scalpel and the Orbea Oiz model.
    I can't believe this!!! Well, maybe cannondale sold their patent like they did back then with the Super V style frame...
    Anyways. I've contacted Orbea and asked them if they will copy the lefty Max as well since it was discontinued for '08
    Or the Prophet frame style, since Orbea doesn't seem to have any AM bikes..
    We'll see how they reply to that....
    (I know ...I'm bad!)
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  5. #5
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    When I first started reading this post I was going to reply by saying that there are several others that have similar designs to the Rush and the Rush wasn't the first. But then I scrolled down and saw the image. Its hilarious how close they are, especially the details like the swingarm and shock mount on the front triangle. Maybe instead of "Hotbox" technology, the Orbea has "High Temperature Cube" technology.

    Orbea's scalpel copy however made improvements over the real one. There is more travel and its more active travel than the scalpel. Also, it has horst pivots at the dropouts.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Boy
    Orbea's scalpel copy however made improvements over the real one. There is more travel and its more active travel than the scalpel. Also, it has horst pivots at the dropouts.
    Too active is not always the best for a XC race bike. But then comes the 2008 Scalpel: lighter, more travel no pivots to add weight and creak... How long until they copy that one?

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    haha, Orbea seems to be out of ideas
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gerous
    Too active is not always the best for a XC race bike. But then comes the 2008 Scalpel: lighter, more travel no pivots to add weight and creak... How long until they copy that one?
    I will agree that too active isn't always best but neither is not active enough. My friend had both (same build up) and felt the Orbea was a better performing bike.

    The problem that is inherent in the Scalpel's design is that it has a spring rate built into the carbon stays and as a result you get a very progressive suspension. Meaning the 100mm on the new Scalpel won't feel like 100mm on a Rush (if it had 100mm).

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Boy
    I will agree that too active isn't always best but neither is not active enough. My friend had both (same build up) and felt the Orbea was a better performing bike.

    The problem that is inherent in the Scalpel's design is that it has a spring rate built into the carbon stays and as a result you get a very progressive suspension. Meaning the 100mm on the new Scalpel won't feel like 100mm on a Rush (if it had 100mm).
    Well, that's all a matter of opinion of course.
    And the goal with the new Scalpel was to have more travel but still have a racy, efficient feel, different from the Rush that is more designed for comfort.

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    And the goal with the new Scalpel was to have more travel but still have a racy, efficient feel, different from the Rush that is more designed for comfort.
    Thats the difference between a XC Race bike and a XC Marathon bike
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  11. #11
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    I think it's kind of a scary thought on the scalpels. 100mm of travel is made up of a shock and frame flex. I'm not saying that this bike is anywhere intended for heavy use, but how's it really hold up?
    Quote Originally Posted by Internal14
    Ever slip a pedal and slam into the seat? That little thing would disappear until I later got to the ER.

  12. #12
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    I saw some pics from the 2000 Marin Mount Vision that made me think that maybe it's the Prophet Grandpa'. What do you think?
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by schuster_md
    I saw some pics from the 2000 Marin Mount Vision that made me think that maybe it's the Prophet Grandpa'. What do you think?
    Cannondale were using the Delta V frame design years before Marin copied them... I think that configuration in the 80's...

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  14. #14
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    The Delta V frame appeared in 1992 and I agree with you that it must be the grand grand father of the Prophet but I think that the pivot location comes from the Marin's Mount Vision design.
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    Last edited by schuster_md; 09-22-2007 at 11:23 PM.

  15. #15
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    The original pivot location of the Rush, Prophet and many other single pivot designs comes from the Pro-Flex bikes, late 80's... At the time, only Pro-Flex were ridable, other rear suspension bikes had either a lot of bob or pedaling locked the suspension... Marin has not inveted anything. They just copy or buy other company's designs...

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  16. #16
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    I made some research and found that ProFlex (first called Offroad) was founded in 1990 by Bob Girvin and Will Herman (inventors of the Flexstem in 1987), who designed the bikes that were built in the USA by Ben Serotta. It seems that they created in 1990 the first suspension and single pivot bike, named RF-1. In 1994 the brand name changed to ProFlex and then was bought by K2 at late 90s.
    I checked all the Proflex pics that I found and never saw a rear shock location similar to the Prophet or the Marin Mount Vision, so I'm not convinced that Marin copied the frame design. Who is the real Prophet father?
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    Last edited by schuster_md; 09-23-2007 at 08:50 PM.

  17. #17
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    Offroad / Proflex early suspension designs were macpherson struts. single pivots came along when they traded as K2.

  18. #18
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    I'd say the real father of the Prophet is the Gemini... and it's mother the Jeckyll. The pivot location close to the Rush and Prophet existed before the Marin.

    I still call the Pro-Flex single pivot bikes, you have one main pivot on the swingarm, close to the BB and crank and no other pivots between that pivot and the rear wheel. I had one in the early 90's (Off-Road branded, with a Flexstem then with the venerable Girvin Vector), it was the only decent FS bike for XC back then (with the Amp Research bikes slightly behind), others had their pivots way too low or way too high so they bobbed a lot or the pedaling force stiffened the rear suspension to a point where it almost locked it. I think the Pro-Flex design is the father of all decent single pivot bike today...

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  19. #19
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    The Santacruz Superlight looks like a Rush, must be paying royalty to Cannondale

    http://www.santacruzmtb.com/superlight/superlight.jpg
    2006 Prophet 800

  20. #20
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    except that the Superlight existed before the Rush

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mavsfan
    The Santacruz Superlight looks like a Rush, must be paying royalty to Cannondale

    http://www.santacruzmtb.com/superlight/superlight.jpg

    Superlight was around way before the Rush. Probably 6-7 years.

  22. #22
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    At this point, every possible single pivot design has been done. Who cares who copied who?

    I want to know how the Occam rides 'cause I want one. Did anyone get to ride one at the Dirt Demo??

  23. #23
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    Ride a rush, I am sure it will be similar to that. Except without SI cranks and the stiffest / lightest fork on the market...

  24. #24
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    I'm curious what difference it makes having the shock flipped around.

  25. #25
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    New question here.

    Quote Originally Posted by squads
    I'm curious what difference it makes having the shock flipped around.
    Me too. Any ideas?

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