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  1. #1
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    No good Cannodale Gemini- Really dissappointed in this bike

    Last year I bought a 05 cannondale gemini new from the LBS (Manitou Sherman not a Lefty). This would be my first experience in a dual suspension bike (my other bike being a cross country GT). Needless to say I had nothing really to base my new dualy experience from. When I sat on the bike in the shop it felt great, and when I test rode it (actually found a nice 6-stair set nearby I sessioned for a bit) it felt great. Even after I bought it and rode it on the local freeride trails it felt great (keep in mind I'm coming off a XC bike). But now that I've ridden it almost two seasons I'm realizing that I'm still not that comfortable on it. At first I thought it was just me and I needed to give it a while to get used to but I've ridden this, like I said, almost two seasons and countless rides.

    Problem:
    When I'm riding trails and up out of the saddle I feel like I'm too far over the bars. Every dip, log, or jump I go over I feel like I'm on the verge of a big ol end-o. I thought this was my imagination untill my cousin and I traded bikes for a couple runs. He has an 06 Kona Stinky and instantly I was totally comfortable on this thing, nice and upright, totally natural feeling in the air. He got on my bike and the first thing he says is, "Whoa, I feel like I'm gunna endo on this thing!". It was right then I knew it was not just me.
    This "over-the-bars" feeling is not just limited to being on the ground either. It's really squirrley in the air too and when I land I'm almost always forward heavy making my landings real sketch.

    I'm really frustrated because I paid $2,000.00 on this bike and I hate it! And as far as my experience goes, it's a geometry thing, it's not even like I could just adjust the handlebars or something to fix the issue. I pretty much need a new frame.

    Although this is a rant, I'd really appreciate any feedback from other Cannondale users as to what I could try different- taller bars, a stem with a bit of rise, etc.

    Thanks for all that can help, otherwise I'm just here to say, MY BIKE SUCKS!!!

  2. #2
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    Well last summer in Whistler I was ridding with 2 guys on 1st year Gemini's and they were killing it!

    You need to impart a great deal more info in order to get any real advice. You should also post some pictures of the rig, list your components & and list your stats too (height, weight, etc)!

    People are very helpful here but you need to help them to help you
    PrOxY

  3. #3
    discombobulated SuperModerator
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    Yes, this isnt really a rant forum....Ask questions, seek advice, all could work out well.
    To that end, list out the specs on your and your cousin's bike.
    Look for things that differ and how you can change the Gemini to suit you....
    Are the sizes the same? ETT length? Geometry differences?
    You say this was your first Full sus, but you felt comfortable enough to jump right into a $2000 bike with a LBS sitting and some stairs....
    The bike hasnt changed, but you have. You skill level, or you knowledge level has...
    Heck try and work with the LBS to find out what you can do...
    CDT

  4. #4
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    Sorry for the rant... I Appreciate the help guys!

    As far as specs go, it's all stock, nothing aftermarket. In fact this is more or less the exact bike right HERE.
    The only difference is mine came with a Manitou Sherman Not the dual crown Bomber like shown.
    My cousins bike is HERE.
    As far as dimensions go, I'm not sure what the differences are other than when I sit on the Kona it feels more like a dirtbike, short cockpit, tall in the front, more upright feeling.
    The Gemini is a bit longer, still quite stretched out feeling. Both are mediums but that doesn't mean anything from one manufacturer to another.
    I've dealt with a few of the LBS around here, the mechanic at the shop I bought it from says the Gemini's have a really high bottom bracket compared to most bikes.
    From what I've gathered I could get a set of bars with a taller rise but will this have an adverse affect someplace else?
    I'm pretty much experimenting with ideas at this point. BTW I'm 5"8" 170lbs.

    And just for the record, sorry for hatin' on the Gemini. Overall the bike is great, the components are awesome and I've never had to take it in for anything. It's more an issue wtih my riding style I guess which is more freeride than DH.

  5. #5
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    You just said it yourself, the Gemini is much longer in the top tube than the Stinky, that is why you cant go off sizes when choosing bikes. One companies medium is not the same as another companies medium. Mountain bike sizing should be based on intended use. It sounds like you want to do more jumping/freeriding with the bike, so you should look at going with a shorter stem/top tube than if the bike was for more XC use.
    The bike doesnt "suck", its just that either you bough the wrong size, or you have the wrong components. Cedric Garcia seemed to just fine on his Gemini back in the day.
    I would suggest going shorter on the stem, perhaps down to 50mm with a freeride style stem, and a bar with more rise. You can also rotate the risers back. If this doesnt work I would suggest selling the bike and looking for something with a shorter top tube.

    edit. just checked out the geometry charts (should have done that first!) and a medium Gemini has a shorter top tube than the Stinky in medium, albeit with a slacker seat tube. I think a lot of the difference comes down to the longer Bomber dual crown on the fork of the Stinky. Bottom bracket height is less than a 1/4 inch so that isnt the difference. I think if you go with a super short stem and/or higher risers rotated back that would work. Alternatively look to trade in the Sherman for a dual crown bomber.

    Kevin

    Kevin

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlippinSweet
    Sorry for the rant... I Appreciate the help guys!
    As far as dimensions go, I'm not sure what the differences are other than when I sit on the Kona it feels more like a dirtbike, short cockpit, tall in the front, more upright feeling
    Well it took me 2 seconds to find out as both manufacturers post the geometry data on thier sites! ....by "dirtbike" do you mean DH? If so, your correct it is much more of a DH rig.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlippinSweet
    The Gemini is a bit longer, still quite stretched out feeling. Both are mediums but that doesn't mean anything from one manufacturer to another.

    ...they are both are vastly different (as the charts show)!


    Quote Originally Posted by FlippinSweet
    It's more an issue wtih my riding style I guess which is more freeride than DH.
    FIRST....A disclaimer.........I have no idea what I'm talking about

    Well here in lies the rub! Not even taking into account the other settings, the head angle is why I dumped a Glory DH for the Perp (it felt just to "floppy" for the techy stuff I like). ..... So if your riding more techy trails (like say North Shore) with built stunts and such, the steeper HTA on the Gemini might be of benefit (more snappy turning than a slacker angle)......more "all mountain".

    Your cousins bike is actually designed with its head angle even slacker than their top line DH bike (Stab Delux). So I dont think it means "your bike sucks" at all! Its just set up for different riding. If you feel comfortable on your cousin's bike (a DH rig), and it suits your riding style, IMHO there isnt a heck of allot you can do other than try different stems and bars and perhaps mess with your rear shock settings (Konas rear ends sag way to much to my liking). If you really cant afford another bike but really need a slacker angle and lower BB, you might seek some tech advice and put a slightly shorter shock on the back (you sacrafice travel but gain lower BB and slacker HT). As you can see from the manufacturers specs, the HT angles steepen as the need for a more agile, technical turning and better pedaling bike increaes (as in XC), and conversly slackens as the need for stability at mach speeds, ability to take big hits and drops does (as in DH). Its up to you to decide what fits you

    HEAD ANGLE

    Kona Stinky 64.7
    Kona Stab Delux (Team DH) 65.5

    Cannondale Judge (Team DH) 64
    Cannondale Perp (This is the new "All Mountain" geometry) 66
    Cannondale Prohpet 67
    Cannondale Gemini 67
    Cannondale Rush 69
    Last edited by proxy; 06-03-2007 at 05:14 PM.
    PrOxY

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlippinSweet
    This "over-the-bars" feeling is not just limited to being on the ground either. It's really squirrley in the air too and when I land I'm almost always forward heavy making my landings real sketch.!!!
    I own a 05 Gemini and I love it. It fits in perfectly between my 05 Prophet and 06 Judge.

    You need to learn to work the bike.

    If you have that over the bar feeling it's because you are standing too tall on the pedals and/or you not hanging off the back of the saddle far enough.

    If you're landing with the weight forward then you're not shifting your weight to the back fast enough or far enough.

    What kind of pedals are you using? Flats or clipless?

    My Gemini was out of commission for about 3 months. I rode the Prophet during that time. The first ride aftering getting my Gemini back I literally landed on my back when I boosted the bike because I was use to the Prophet's extreme weight shift and hard pull to land the Prophet. I toned down the weight shift and the bike was landing perfectly.

    There is a fix to your issues which is to run a 24 inch tire in the back. That will chopper the bike and lower the bottom bracket. That should solve your issues but you'll sacrifice climbing and a harsher ride.

    Your bike may suck for your style of riding and you do need a new frame. I love riding all kinds of styles which why I have a quiver of bikes. I'm also cheap so I never pay retail. I'm a bargain hunter.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by racerzero
    I own a 05 Gemini and I love it. It fits in perfectly between my 05 Prophet and 06 Judge.

    You need to learn to work the bike.

    If you have that over the bar feeling it's because you are standing too tall on the pedals and/or you not hanging off the back of the saddle far enough.

    If you're landing with the weight forward then you're not shifting your weight to the back fast enough or far enough.

    What kind of pedals are you using? Flats or clipless?

    My Gemini was out of commission for about 3 months. I rode the Prophet during that time. The first ride aftering getting my Gemini back I literally landed on my back when I boosted the bike because I was use to the Prophet's extreme weight shift and hard pull to land the Prophet. I toned down the weight shift and the bike was landing perfectly.

    There is a fix to your issues which is to run a 24 inch tire in the back. That will chopper the bike and lower the bottom bracket. That should solve your issues but you'll sacrifice climbing and a harsher ride.

    Your bike may suck for your style of riding and you do need a new frame. I love riding all kinds of styles which why I have a quiver of bikes. I'm also cheap so I never pay retail. I'm a bargain hunter.
    Thanks for the advice!
    I just ordered a set of 31.8mm / 3" rise bars off ebay, we'll see how that goes.
    Yeah, I realize it's probably the way I'm "postured" on the bike which is attributing to my over-the-bars feeling, however I've been riding this bike LOTS for the last season and I'd think I'd get it dialed in by now. My contrast is, like I said, I get on my cousin's bike which is a shorter, more upright feeling and I'm instantly comfortable and not just jumping that bike but actually airing out my jumps with style and a little tweakage.

    I'll see how these bars change my posture before I go getting a smaller wheel- that seems a little extreme right now. And to answer your question- I ride platform pedals not clipless.

  9. #9
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    I had exactly the same vibe with my prophet sl.. different bike I know but it was the same issue... The geometry is very forward facing... have pretty much solved it with a much shorter stem and a lay back seatpost.. the position is much better now. Different bars will also help.

    I would drop it back even further by putting it into the freeride setting but the reasons why I cant do that are well documented on this forum

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karve
    I would drop it back even further by putting it into the freeride setting but the reasons why I cant do that are well documented on this forum
    By "freeride setting" do you mean the two rear shock mounting locations in the swingarm?
    Right now its in the 170mm hole (the lower of the two).

  11. #11
    COOL BUZZ & TASTY S-TRACK
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    I can't tell you what your specific problem is, but I have a few thoughts.

    I can tell you that I have had a 05 large 900 and now have an 05 med 2000 and I'm 6' tall.
    The large was good for trail riding with the 24 1/2"+ TT and 80mm stem. The medium is much better for the FR type of riding with a 23 1/2"+. Both bikes fit me for what I used them for and it's all how you set them up.

    The Gemini have long top tubes, that TT is long for someone your height, but I don't think that would cause your over the bar type feeling. I think it's a set up problem. If you still have the stock stem ( I believe 60mm) I would go as short as possible. I know for sure Thompson makes a 45mm, Truvtiv make 1.5 stems 40mm, I beleive that's as short as it gets. They can be costly. With the bar height, I left mine stock, four spacers below the stem with the 1 1/2" rise bar, I feel this is plenty high for getting the front end up.

    Also check your rear sag, if you have it set up with too little rear sag and your fork is set up with the right sag, it will steepen your head angle, which might feel sketchy on the steeps, especially with allot of front brake and fork dive. For the most part I feel the HA on the Gemini plenty slack for DH.

    My son and I made a trip to a local ski area for some DH. He wanted to ride my med. Gemini and I rode my trail bike. He is only 5' 3" and yes the bike was big for him, but he never mentioned to me about feeling like he was going to endo and we rode some stuff I thought I was going to endo on my trail bike. See picture of my son on the Gem here.
    http://gallery.mtbr.com/showphoto.ph.../ppuser/235296

    Good luck and keep us updated because all the Gemini riders are probably courious.
    I can fix it............... my dad has an awesome set of tools

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlippinSweet
    By "freeride setting" do you mean the two rear shock mounting locations in the swingarm?
    Right now its in the 170mm hole (the lower of the two).
    Yep that will be the freeride setting on your bike.. the one that gives the slacker frame angles

  13. #13
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    So I got a set of 31.8mm x 3" rise bars in the mail yesterday. I am really surprised how going from a 2" to a 3" rise could make such a difference!
    I can't say it "fixed" my issue 100% but it has definitely improved it a lot. Immediately I noticed how much more comfortable I was in the air. Tight sections are easier, not as much creep over the bars.
    I think at this point it's a matter of me getting used to the new setup, but definitely it's an improvement for what little options I had.
    The bike looks sorta goofy with the really tall bars but whatever, it works for me!

    Thanks for all the help

  14. #14
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    Don't throw away your old handle bars. Your comfort level may change. I use go for the for the highest rise & spacers. Now I prefer to get the handle much lower.

  15. #15
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    Hate me

    Cannonsnails are built from a XC weight weenie perspective of a downhill, free ride and all mountain bikes. This is different from a true downhill free ride and am setup. I know some of you will argue that some great biker on you cannondale trading cards wins this or that. But that just means that Cannondale overcharges and can afford to bribe the best riders to ride their bikes. The riders are good enough to win with huffies. But to help with your problem cannondales are a very weigh forward XC design in all bikes which is a problem I see that you have a 3' riser bar now go with a shorter stem and a kicked back seat post. This will be the best that you can do. Next describe your riding style in the appropriate forums no one will recommend cannonsnail in free ride downhill or all mountain and ask for frame recommendations. Buy a new frame that you can switch over your existing components and sell the cannonsnail to a sucker in this forum or eBay.

  16. #16
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    "XC weight weenie perspective" having a 67 deg. ht angle and 71 deg. seat angle??

    BTW, snails are slow, lol

  17. #17
    Bike to the Bone...
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    It seems its a sizing issue. I rode a medium jekyll, but it was a bit small for me. The bike was very nice, just not my size. It seems it's the same case.

    And also, freeride bikes have shorter top tubes than XC racers.

    It might not be the bike or the size for it, but I doubt it's a bad bike.

  18. #18
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    Not making many friends

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba74
    "XC weight weenie perspective" having a 67 deg. ht angle and 71 deg. seat angle??

    BTW, snails are slow, lol
    It is not all about the angles it is about weight distribution. This is were cannonsnails differ from bikes that feel conferrable going big and having control over the front end. My bike is set up to have 70% of the weight on the back wheel (Use a bathroom scale to determine this. Put it under each wheel while in your normal riding position). This is not for every riding style but it is great for extreme all mountain and free ride. It is easy to through your weight forward when needed but more difficult to get it back. I can fly off drops and never worry about landing on my front tire and grab a fist full of front brake on a downhill and not launch over the handlebars. And we all know that the front is the one that makes you stop when things go bad.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by momentom
    Buy a new frame that you can switch over your existing components and sell the cannonsnail to a sucker in this forum or eBay.
    UHHHH.. shouldn't you be in the "Cannondales are the worst bikes in the history of the world" forum? Since you seem to know best, exactly which bikes don't suck?

    I really get tired of people that insist that brand X bikes totally suck... the truth is once you get above a certain price NONE of the major bike makers bikes suck. It's the same old crap like "Ford sucks" or "Chevy's suck" or "SRAM is a million times better than Shimano"...whatever... it just gets old.

  20. #20
    discombobulated SuperModerator
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    Vita, youve missed the bathroom scale post...
    All I got to say is- contribute sensible informative posts.
    That is all...

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by CdaleTony
    Vita, youve missed the bathroom scale post...
    All I got to say is- contribute sensible informative posts.
    That is all...
    I guess calling Cannondales "cannonsnails" is sensible and informative.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitaccop
    I guess calling Cannondales "cannonsnails" is sensible and informative.
    It might not be but their was information in the post. I admit that Cannon... are not bad bikes a little pricey but good but there is no one bike for everyone. They tend to have front bias weight distribution this does not work with my riding style and this also make it the perfect bike for you. I just thought I would chip in to help out the original poster because he is describing a similar problem that I have had. They talk about head angles and top tube lengths but skip over weight distribution. I the problems that this particular rider is having would be better served by another manufacture. The cheap shots just make it interesting while conveying info.

  23. #23
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    momentom- thanks for the civilized reply to my smart-a$$ rant!! I just got my panties all in a wad for some reason- but it's fun sometimes...

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by momentom
    Cannonsnails are built from a XC weight weenie perspective of a downhill, free ride and all mountain bikes. This is different from a true downhill free ride and am setup. ..........
    ACCORDING TO MOMENTOM....................................

    Cannondale builds inherently slow bikes so they are called "Cannonsnails" by innovative bike designers and professional riders like momentom.

    However, confusingly Cannoondale also makes inherently light bikes because they are "built from a XC weight weenie perspective."

    Quote Originally Posted by momentom
    "Cannondale overcharges and can afford to bribe the best riders to ride their bikes
    although no information is given to substantiate such claims, It's clearly better to buy bikes designed and built in various Asian countries (thus insuring low costs) in order to avoid contributing to this conspiracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by momentom
    ...cannondales are a very weigh forward XC design in all bikes"....
    This is different from a true downhill free ride and am setup...
    Again, since no information is given to substantiate the claims, perhaps these random geometric head angle stats can help. Looking them over, Cannondale clearly produces no "true" DH,FR or AM geometries.

    Cannondale Judge (Team DH) 64.0
    Orange 224 64.0
    Kona Stinky 64.7
    Kona Stab Delux (Team DH) 65.5
    Cove Shocker 65.5
    Giant Glory DH 65.5
    Intense M3 66.3
    Cove Playmate 66
    Cannondale Perp 66
    Intense Uzzi VPX 67
    Orange Patriot FR 67

    Quote Originally Posted by momentom
    It is not all about the angles it is about weight distribution. This is were cannonsnails differ from bikes that feel conferrable going big and having control over the front end
    It is very frustrating when not a single manufactures publishes this important distribution information, otherwise innovative bike designers and professional riders like momentom would post it to add credence to their statements! Further, and as the quote demonstrates, It is very important to poorly articulate your ideas when making unfounded and unsupported assertions, and its best to demonstrate ones inability to spell or use any sense of grammar.

    All in all, a truly informative and outstanding series of posts!
    PrOxY

  25. #25
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    Now it just fun, keep hateing me

    [although no information is given to substantiate such claims,
    It is very frustrating when not a single manufactures publishes this important distribution information, otherwise innovative bike designers and professional riders like momentom would post it to add credence to their statements! Further, and as the quote demonstrates, It is very important to poorly articulate your ideas when making unfounded and unsupported assertions, and its best to demonstrate ones inability to spell or use any sense of grammar.

    All in all, a truly informative and outstanding series of posts![/QUOTE]

    You cannot publish weight distribution information it is a person thing depending on body type and riding position. (That is why I mentioned the scale thing) The optimum distribution differs depending on the type of riding you do. If you ride XC your weight will be forward on the front tire this contributes to poor braking and a comparatively heavy front end. But it is worth it to XC riders because it generally means your hips are over the bottom bracket for greater pedaling efficiency and you upper body is lower and forward for better wind resistance. Thanks for chiming in but the original problem was not complaining about pedaling efficiency the weight of the bike or wind resistance if it was I would have recommended a cannonsnail. Does it really pain you for someone to recommend a different brand one bike company can not do it all for everyone. I love the fact that we have many bikes to choose from. Have you been brainwashed I am glad you love your bike and you probably love it for the same reasons that it sucks for me and this guy. And yes their is info to support this claim put a scale under you tire and get on your bike your weight distribution will be different from mine thank god. Sorry I insulted you beloved brand but itís not about you Proxy it is about helping with the original question which you still have not done. And by the way notime to spel and grammer check because i am late to go ride

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