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  1. #1
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    BikeRadar News - 2011 Scalpel, Jekyll, Claymore


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    Bikeradar, cyclingnews, same thing, same article, same photos posted in the 2011 - new models thread.

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    After a few pics of the new scalpel surfaced I knew then it would have less travel than the previous one
    as far as the am rigs:
    -made in asia
    -using an old name (Jekyll),
    -looks like a giant with the sloped down tube,
    -on the fly adjustable geometry like the german bionicon bikes,
    -no lefties
    well, VERY INNOVATIVE.......not!
    If my prophet should break and I'll get a replacement frame I'll sell it and buy myself something else......after being loyal to this brand almost 20 years I've had enough of this bs.
    Will change my username too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdalemaniac
    After a few pics of the new scalpel surfaced I knew then it would have less travel than the previous one
    as far as the am rigs:
    -made in asia
    -using an old name (Jekyll),
    -looks like a giant with the sloped down tube,
    -on the fly adjustable geometry like the german bionicon bikes,
    -no lefties
    well, VERY INNOVATIVE.......not!
    If my prophet should break and I'll get a replacement frame I'll sell it and buy myself something else......after being loyal to this brand almost 20 years I've had enough of this bs.
    Will change my username too.
    it might not float eveerybodys boat, but i find some of the points you make if not inaccurate than not the best.

    #1) the adjsutable travel is not like bionicon bikes where the lower front means a higher bb and vice versa - meaning the two suspension components are linked. Bionicon bikes can also doubble as boat anchors, something the two new cannondales cannot.
    #2) i'm guessing a 140max will fit the jekyll just fine, but they went with a talas to have the adjustibility they were after
    #3) not innovative? Have you looked at the shock? Sure, it is an evolution of the DT made Scott shocks, but it looks very refined and seems like a brilliant idea - more so than the Scott shocks.
    #4) as for the Giantesque downtube, if you look at the frame and the shock design i think you will find that the downtube is that way because of the placement of the shock. Due to the massive shock the downtube cannot go straight up to the headtube and has the bend. Because of this it also will need a bend where it joins with the headtube to avoid issues with the front wheel.
    #5) i for one find the usage of the Jekyll name very appropriate. It is prob all the Jekyll
    tried to be and all that much better since the adjustability is now on the fly.
    #6) not hmiusa - i couldn't care less. If the quality has improved - jippikayeh!

    i don't know. THis forum is starting to become the center of the whining universe in some respects. Lets face it, the main weaknesses of the prophet/rush design was a) not the best shock curve and b) not the stiffest design out there. The geo has always been good and both of these designs were if not ahead of their time then just recently just getting some of the acclaim they deserved. Both of these issues have been sorted with the RZ and now Jekyll line up, while the adjustibilty has been taken a step further by making it truly on the fly. I'm not that happy that you can't swap the shock out for anything else, but i for one really like the look of the new frames. 180mm for a trail bike is though redundant number one, but it will prob make a perfect randonee type bike.

    i don't mean to be overly crass here, but everybody is just a bit too vocal on designs that haven't even been properly introduced yet nor tested. Just because they look a bit different than the Dales of yesteryear doesn't mean they are crap. I'm not saying they are the best bikes in the world or that i'm going to buy either - i'm prob getting one to replace my busted moto frame - but i think mendon said it best in the 2011 thread;"we are not their moms so we don't have to love them unconditionally...". That being said, people seem to need to breath out and look at the new designs before dissing them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by klinkekule
    "we are not their moms so we don't have to love them unconditionally...". That being said, people seem to need to breath out and look at the new designs before dissing them.
    Yep, seems exactly what you're doing here...
    Some people like the bikes, some don't....I'm one of the latter....
    It seems that those suspension designs that cannondale themselves used to talk smack about all the time is the greatest thing since sliced bread all of the sudden only because they do them that way now too.....
    Guess why they changes their philosophy????
    It used to be: "We don't care how the bikes look if our engineers say it has to look that way to perform the best than so be it".
    Now they just have 1 thing in mind: how to make it as cheap as possible but still functional....that's the reason why you don't see them use 3d forged/cnc techniques anymore that were so hyped on the Rush, Prophet and Rize....frame parts a'la "Torque Box" is a thing of the past since it's too expensive too make and since Taiwan is known for their Hydro forming capabilities all future Alu frames will look like Giant, GT etc.
    The sloped downtube could've been engineered in a different manner, but that would mean higher production costs/less profit.
    Soon your precious lifetime warranty will go out the window too!
    That's the reason why I will switch brands....
    Don't worry though...since you love cannondale so much no matter what I'll sell you the replacement frame (if warranty should still exist by then) for cheap lmao
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    The 2011 bikes are definitly not for retro grouches... The Rush and Prophet, even back when they were introduced, were low-tech and quite cheap to make, the Hot Box of the Prophet and Rush swingarm is too costly now? You are funny, there is way more tech and cost involved in making those new bikes.

    They didn't really change their philosophy, it's still to make the best bikes as possible, screw old standards, screw traditional low tech rear suspension designs... It's just that now, they have the ressources, the engineers and the technical knowledge and manufacturing abilities to really step up the bike designs! I'm not saying the Prophet isn't good but it's biggest feature is the simplicity of it's design but, we're in 2010 going for 2011, it's so far behind now it's not even funny!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gerous
    The 2011 bikes are definitly not for retro grouches... The Rush and Prophet, even back when they were introduced, were low-tech and quite cheap to make, the Hot Box of the Prophet and Rush swingarm is too costly now? You are funny, there is way more tech and cost involved in making those new bikes.
    Compared to before it is cheaper to manufacture them now, hence the reason for outsourcing.
    I'm not saying that the prophet is high tech...not at all.
    It was only nice to see a manufacturer using non traditional standards to produce a bike with forged and cnc'd parts, instead of jumping on the GT/Giant bandwagon and put together a few hydroformed tubes and trying to convince everyone that this is the **** now.....
    I don't see the so called aluminum expertise that pushes the standard anymore....
    Slapping a few hydroformed tubes together, with a special made shock (I hope it's easier to get replacement parts for that thing than my lefty max with SPV) is simply put boring.....
    I don't see them pushing the envelope anymore in alu design only in the high tech/high price arena.
    And how does getting rid of the lifetime warranty help?
    Where I got this info from?
    You'll see once the 2012 models are introduced go ahead and read the fineprint.....
    Maybe it's because they're using the same "fancy" alloy now like the other manufacturers overseas...
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdalemaniac
    Compared to before it is cheaper to manufacture them now, hence the reason for outsourcing.
    I'm not saying that the prophet is high tech...not at all.
    It was only nice to see a manufacturer using non traditional standards to produce a bike with forged and cnc'd parts, instead of jumping on the GT/Giant bandwagon and put together a few hydroformed tubes and trying to convince everyone that this is the **** now.....
    I don't see the so called aluminum expertise that pushes the standard anymore....
    Slapping a few hydroformed tubes together, with a special made shock (I hope it's easier to get replacement parts for that thing than my lefty max with SPV) is simply put boring.....
    I don't see them pushing the envelope anymore in alu design only in the high tech/high price arena.
    And how does getting rid of the lifetime warranty help?
    Where I got this info from?
    You'll see once the 2012 models are introduced go ahead and read the fineprint.....
    Maybe it's because they're using the same "fancy" alloy now like the other manufacturers overseas...
    I don't know about cheaper, yes it's cheaper to have them made in Asia compared to the US, but that is one positive aspect of moving production over, it allows them to make things that would be way too expensive otherwise, that they couldn't have done in the US. Plus, asian made Cannondales are much better manufactured honestly, build quality has improved, finish has also improved.

    And, it actually is the **** now IMO. The new bikes are lighter yet more capable, with more features. I think 2011 is a huge step forward from Cannondale and it makes a lot of other companies now look outdated. Check Rocky Mountain for exemple, they put years, lot's of focus and energy designing their new Element, I think it looks really bad but if it's riding well and is light and stiff, looks take a backseat. But with this new Scalpel, the Element is already outdated and heavy, and they haven't even started to ship them yet, they haven't even announced the prices yet!

    I also think that cosmetically, the 2011 Cannondales look better than ever! My opinion, no disrespect for yours and others...
    Last edited by Dan Gerous; 06-22-2010 at 09:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gerous
    I don't know about cheaper, yes it's cheaper to have them made in Asia compared to the US, but that is one positive aspect of moving production over, it allows them to make things that would be way too expensive otherwise, that they couldn't have done in the US. Plus, asian made Cannondales are much better manufactured honestly, build quality has improved, finish has also improved.

    And, it actually is the **** now IMO. The new bikes are lighter yet more capable, with more features. I think 2011 is a huge step forward from Cannondale and it makes a lot of other companies now look outdated. Check Rocky Mountain for exemple, they put years, lot's of focus and energy designing their new Element, I think it looks really bad but if it's riding well and is light and stiff, looks take a backseat. But with this new Scalpel, the Element is already outdated and heavy, and they haven't even started to ship them yet, they haven't even announced the prices yet!

    I also think that cosmetically, the 2011 Cannondales look better than ever! My opinion, no disrespect for yours and others... :thumbup:
    Only time will tell, Dan....maybe this all puts the word "crackndale" in a whole new light...we'll see.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gerous
    I don't know about cheaper, yes it's cheaper to have them made in Asia compared to the US, but that is one positive aspect of moving production over, it allows them to make things that would be way too expensive otherwise, that they couldn't have done in the US. Plus, asian made Cannondales are much better manufactured honestly, build quality has improved, finish has also improved.

    And, it actually is the **** now IMO. The new bikes are lighter yet more capable, with more features. I think 2011 is a huge step forward from Cannondale and it makes a lot of other companies now look outdated. Check Rocky Mountain for exemple, they put years, lot's of focus and energy designing their new Element, I think it looks really bad but if it's riding well and is light and stiff, looks take a backseat. But with this new Scalpel, the Element is already outdated and heavy, and they haven't even started to ship them yet, they haven't even announced the prices yet!

    I also think that cosmetically, the 2011 Cannondales look better than ever! My opinion, no disrespect for yours and others...

    Well I dunno about the entry level F bikes. the welds looked like **** compared to the MUSA ones they replaced........

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    Quote Originally Posted by CdaleTony
    Well I dunno about the entry level F bikes. the welds looked like **** compared to the MUSA ones they replaced........
    The entry level hardtails that were asian-made were not replacements of the old F-series, they are underneath them as cheaper bikes, true entry level, something the older F were not. They were designed to cost less so that's one area they saved on.

    But on higher end bikes, from those I have seen and used, the Asian-made bikes are better built and finished IMO, the alloy ones still have the oh so smooth double-pass welds.

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    Lets have an open mind about these. Fox makes the shocks so they WILL stand behind their own reputation.The Prophet was and is a simple and tough bike. Lets hope they bring it back as the between bike of the Jeckyll abd Claymore. And lets hope it has 165 mm of travel with a Lefty up front and it will be all a Prophet tried to be.
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    I like how Giant "owns the rights" to hydroformed tubes.

    I haven't seen a single HF bike appear in the last 2 years that someone hasn't squealed "IT LOOKS LIKE A GIANT!!!!!" about...

    What I find most interesting is how Denk pretty much took a bunch of his Scott concepts (dual chamber adjustable pull shocks, linkage driven single pivots, tube to tube carbon) and simply tweaked / improved them when he moved to C'dale.

    Push the seat tube around, et voila...

    For the record: I like the new bikes! Hats off Cannondale. Nice move forward.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails BikeRadar News -  2011 Scalpel, Jekyll, Claymore-cannondale_jekyll_2_600.jpg  

    BikeRadar News -  2011 Scalpel, Jekyll, Claymore-genius1-798-75.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by klinkekule
    it might not float eveerybodys boat, but i find some of the points you make if not inaccurate than not the best.

    #1) the adjsutable travel is not like bionicon bikes where the lower front means a higher bb and vice versa - meaning the two suspension components are linked. Bionicon bikes can also doubble as boat anchors, something the two new cannondales cannot.
    #2) i'm guessing a 140max will fit the jekyll just fine, but they went with a talas to have the adjustibility they were after
    #3) not innovative? Have you looked at the shock? Sure, it is an evolution of the DT made Scott shocks, but it looks very refined and seems like a brilliant idea - more so than the Scott shocks.
    #4) as for the Giantesque downtube, if you look at the frame and the shock design i think you will find that the downtube is that way because of the placement of the shock. Due to the massive shock the downtube cannot go straight up to the headtube and has the bend. Because of this it also will need a bend where it joins with the headtube to avoid issues with the front wheel.
    #5) i for one find the usage of the Jekyll name very appropriate. It is prob all the Jekyll
    tried to be and all that much better since the adjustability is now on the fly.
    #6) not hmiusa - i couldn't care less. If the quality has improved - jippikayeh!

    i don't know. THis forum is starting to become the center of the whining universe in some respects. Lets face it, the main weaknesses of the prophet/rush design was a) not the best shock curve and b) not the stiffest design out there. The geo has always been good and both of these designs were if not ahead of their time then just recently just getting some of the acclaim they deserved. Both of these issues have been sorted with the RZ and now Jekyll line up, while the adjustibilty has been taken a step further by making it truly on the fly. I'm not that happy that you can't swap the shock out for anything else, but i for one really like the look of the new frames. 180mm for a trail bike is though redundant number one, but it will prob make a perfect randonee type bike.

    i don't mean to be overly crass here, but everybody is just a bit too vocal on designs that haven't even been properly introduced yet nor tested. Just because they look a bit different than the Dales of yesteryear doesn't mean they are crap. I'm not saying they are the best bikes in the world or that i'm going to buy either - i'm prob getting one to replace my busted moto frame - but i think mendon said it best in the 2011 thread;"we are not their moms so we don't have to love them unconditionally...". That being said, people seem to need to breath out and look at the new designs before dissing them.

    Why do you think that the shock is better or more evolved than Scott? The new fox also uses two seperate air chambers, also uses two rebound adjusments, also uses a very high pressure...BUT the fox does not have lockout. the Scott /DT shock has more feature, for less weight and more experience in pull shocks.
    I agree the fox MIGHT be nice, but its def. not more evolved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alias
    Why do you think that the shock is better or more evolved than Scott? The new fox also uses two seperate air chambers, also uses two rebound adjusments, also uses a very high pressure...BUT the fox does not have lockout. the Scott /DT shock has more feature, for less weight and more experience in pull shocks.
    I agree the fox MIGHT be nice, but its def. not more evolved.
    because from personal experiences i've found that generally speaking i prefer Fox products over DT. It's not like either the Ransom or the Genius lines are known for being incredibly supple. If the Jekyll rides like the Genius, meaning as a long legged xc bike, then i will be dissapointed in a big way. Personally i think Scott has created a hole in their lineup by going for the 180mm Genius LT with nothing between it and the regular Genius. The 150mm sprung Genius is no way as capable downhill as say a Commencal Meta 5.5 and 180mm trail bike is just rediculous for general trail riding. And it's not like the shock on the Spark iss know for being the greatest thing since slinced bread. The three different modes is the reason people still use it as there are prob better shocks out there by far. I have not studied the schematics of the new Genius shock so they might be very similar to the Fox shock for all i know, but personally i would go with a Fox over a DT any day of the week. Other people might feel differently and i might be missing out, but oh well

    happy trails

  16. #16
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    [QUOTE=cdalemaniac
    Now they just have 1 thing in mind: how to make it as cheap as possible but still functional....[/QUOTE]


    So you've seen one in person, eh?

    I'm not quite sure how anyone could inspect the pivot thru axle design and make the above comment. Or the rear shock. So the proprietary rear pull shock may not float your boat, but you honestly think it was cheaper for Cannondale to produce than simply changing a link around and spec'ing a Float R?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gerous
    The entry level hardtails that were asian-made were not replacements of the old F-series, they are underneath them as cheaper bikes, true entry level, something the older F were not. They were designed to cost less so that's one area they saved on.

    But on higher end bikes, from those I have seen and used, the Asian-made bikes are better built and finished IMO, the alloy ones still have the oh so smooth double-pass welds.
    I just purchased one of the new F-9 bikes for my daughters first mountain bike.

    Cost was $329 plus tax. The welding looks great, with a good entry spec shimano group set.

    A lot of bike for the money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by altazo
    So you've seen one in person, eh?

    I'm not quite sure how anyone could inspect the pivot thru axle design and make the above comment. Or the rear shock. So the proprietary rear pull shock may not float your boat, but you honestly think it was cheaper for Cannondale to produce than simply changing a link around and spec'ing a Float R?
    Constructing a frame set solemnly with hydroformed tubes is cheaper to produce than a frame set consisting out of hydroformed tubes implementing forged/cnc parts....
    The "special shock" is as special as the shock on the old Jeckyll or first Delta V or the first Gen Super V......meaning specifically made for cannondale.
    Look, yall can hype these bikes all day long and get a woody lookin' at 'em...for me they are not special anymore, just another nice bike made in asia with a bunch of pivots that look like any other mtb out there.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdalemaniac
    Constructing a frame set solemnly with hydroformed tubes is cheaper to produce than a frame set consisting out of hydroformed tubes implementing forged/cnc parts....
    The "special shock" is as special as the shock on the old Jeckyll or first Delta V or the first Gen Super V......meaning specifically made for cannondale.
    Look, yall can hype these bikes all day long and get a woody lookin' at 'em...for me they are not special anymore, just another nice bike made in asia with a bunch of pivots that look like any other mtb out there.
    Peace!
    You probably don't fully understand how they work then if you think of it as the same as any other bikes out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gerous
    You probably don't fully understand how they work then if you think of it as the same as any other bikes out there.

    uuuuuh.....ahhhhhh.....a pull shock design...cannondale is not the first one to try this you know.....I'm not stupid if that's what you're trying to say, Dan...
    Last time cannondale was trying to convince us that they found the best suspension design was with the introduction of the MOTO.....and everybody hopped on their bandwagon and agreed just like now......
    I like to test the new bikes just like Denk and smack the frame with a hammer to see if the hype is for real or just marketing bs btw.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdalemaniac
    uuuuuh.....ahhhhhh.....a pull shock design...cannondale is not the first one to try this you know.....I'm not stupid if that's what you're trying to say, Dan...
    Last time cannondale was trying to convince us that they found the best suspension design was with the introduction of the MOTO.....and everybody hopped on their bandwagon and agreed just like now......
    I like to test the new bikes just like Denk and smack the frame with a hammer to see if the hype is for real or just marketing bs btw.....
    I'm not saying you are stupid at all, sorry if it came out sounding that way... but it's not just a pull shock... There is soooo much more to it than that, that's the least important point of the Jekyll IMO. Forget the technical detail that it's a pull shock and look past the hydroformed tubing and think more about what the bike achieves and what it does on the trail, you seem to get stuck on the things that don't really matter and dont see the real breakthrough. Kind of like if there was a new pill that instantly cured all forms of cancer in a minute and you'd complain that the pill was yellow, or that it shouldn't be oval shaped...

    The shock acts closer to switching from the XC to FR setting on a Prophet at the top of a climb before going down, but completely switching the shock when you do, taking a XC tuned small volume short stroke shock in XC, then a high volume long stroke DH tune shock in FR, all that but you don't even need a hex key, you don't even have to get off the bike or stop. It will outperform a Prophet uphill and downhill, it's lighter and much stiffer... This bike just rendered most (if not all) AM bikes outdated if you ask me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cdalemaniac
    Last time cannondale was trying to convince us that they found the best suspension design was with the introduction of the MOTO.....and everybody hopped on their bandwagon and agreed just like now......

    I like to test the new bikes just like Denk and smack the frame with a hammer to see if the hype is for real or just marketing bs btw.....
    the main problem with the moto was not the suspension - that performs really well - but that they tried to slap on a Cannondale looking rear traingle. Had the Moto been stiffer in the rear and if it had the/a lower bb from the outset it would have been a great bike. As it is, it is still a very good if somewhat flawed design. I know, i own one. For all we know the moto might be dropped after SC scored that utterly idiotic patent of theirs for floating shocks on sp bikes.

    oh, and can people get over it already; it is a single pivot bike! It's a faux bar single pivot - or if you prefer, a linkage actuated single pivot design.

    The GT Fury demonstrated once and for all that a carbon frame can be as tough as alloy bike (hah - compare it to treks session...) and even go beyond it in terms of impact strength and stiffness - waaay beyond. It crushed anything Cannondale has tested prior to it. The Jekyll incorporates military grade kevlar or some such to the frame so i'm guessing it will be a lot tougher than any comparable weight alloy bike. In fact, since it can be fixed in the event of a crack it is prob just plain better in that regard.

    i dunno. Time will tell if these bikes are as great as they make out to or if the marketing compartment once again somewhat oversell their bikes. It will not be everybodies cup of tea, but the new frames seem very well thought out as well as very technically advanced.

    happy trails

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    so I asked in the other thread but got no response.... what is the intended usage of the claymore? Is it a freeride type bike or some sort of overkill trail bike?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyDean
    so I asked in the other thread but got no response.... what is the intended usage of the claymore? Is it a freeride type bike or some sort of overkill trail bike?
    Dude, it's probably an "Over the Mountain Extreme" bike, since it has more travel than the "Over the Mountain" Jeckyll....... .
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyDean
    so I asked in the other thread but got no response.... what is the intended usage of the claymore? Is it a freeride type bike or some sort of overkill trail bike?
    I'd think it's a freeride bike that can double as a trailbike. A freeride bike that you can actually pedal and enjoy by riding trails to get to some nice freeriding areas...

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