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  1. #1
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    51mm offset Lefty? (or even 61mm??)

    I've been running Lefties on my various bikes for about 5 years now... Santa Cruz XC, Ibis Mojo, now currently on my 2012 TallBoy 29er first with 2012 Lefty and now with 2013 Lefty. (Review on 2012 vs 2013 shortly)

    My new bike will be here shortly (Ibis Ripley) and unfortunately they are using 51mm offset on the fork. The demo bike I rode was flawless, I'd hate to mess with the geometry much. Lefty I believe is 46mm.

    I wonder if C'dale will ever produce a 51mm offest Lefty, seems like some of the 29er mfg's are looking that direction in fork geometry for a variety of reasons.

    I must say I loved the way the Ripley handled, which is why I am getting one... but I will certainly miss my Lefty.

    That being said, I'll probably try my Lefty on the Ripley just to see how it feels....

    Just thinkin' out loud (and wishing - C'dale, if you ever read these posts!)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 51mm offset Lefty?-tb_2012lefty.jpg  

    Last edited by CactusJackSlade; 08-06-2013 at 11:05 PM.
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  2. #2
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    You can hope....but it probably won't happen.

    FWI....I had several forks when I was building my Lenz...a Reba, a Fox with G2/ 51 and a DT Swiss. They all steered a little different...but I could feel a bigger change in steering by changing the fork sag. YMMV

    I think it's funny that so many people and Bike mfgrs scoffed at the 51 offset of Fisher/Trek.....and now they're on the band wagon.

    The fork you may really want is the SuperMax Lefty. It is the best part of the Trigger29. It has a 61 offset...who knows how that will work with the Ripley

  3. #3
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    I don't think the Lefty SuperMax has a 61mm rake. The geometry on Cannondale's site (TRIGGER 29ER 1 - Trigger 29er - OverMountain - Mountain - Bikes - 2013) for the Trigger 29er 1 shows it as 53mm. I think it is close enough to 51mm.

    Cactus, please let me know if you can find a Lefty SuperMax w/o having to buy a Trigger 29er 1 mounted to it.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRSpalding View Post
    I don't think the Lefty SuperMax has a 61mm rake.

    Cactus, please let me know if you can find a Lefty SuperMax w/o having to buy a Trigger 29er 1 mounted to it.
    Switchback - fuel for the trail.

    To The Point - Rake and Trail - Pinkbike

    The SuperMax is not available seperately yet....supposedly in 2014 according to several good dealers. ( Of course...Cannondale originally said it would be available this year....so who knows)

  5. #5
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    I stick by my posting; Cannondale's own geometry table for the Lefty SuperMax on the Trigger 29er 1. It would be instructive to know what the offset/rake is on the Fox 34 CTD 130mm fork on the 2 model. I seriously doubt that they would spec two very different rakes (60-61mm vs. 53mm) for the bikes. Plus, my crude measurements on a Trigger 29er 1 using a tape measure seemed to indicate it being closer to a 53mm than 60mm. I may head to the LBS to see if they still have a Trigger 29er 1 on the floor and remeasure it if so.
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  6. #6
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    Hummmm,

    All very interesting 53mm if true would undoubtedly be close enough... Certainly closer than 46mm offset. Maybe there is (future) hope for my Ripley after all!
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  7. #7
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    Cannondale won't ever compromise Lefty structural integrity, with a 51mm offset. It's hard enough for them to facilitate a stout enough cone spindle through a full carbon strut...let alone mold an extension lever, to further weaken a lightweight, single-stanchion fork leg. Nope...
    "The mind will quit....well before the body does"

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachariah View Post
    Cannondale won't ever compromise Lefty structural integrity, with a 51mm offset. It's hard enough for them to facilitate a stout enough cone spindle through a full carbon strut...let alone mold an extension lever, to further weaken a lightweight, single-stanchion fork leg. Nope...
    Why would they do that (offset the spindle)?, all they have to do is make the clamps longer for the offset, that is why it would be so easy.... and sounds like they may have already done it (see posts above, but I'm still checking into it) I wouldn't think they'd "offset" the spindle - never and agree completely!
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  9. #9
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    The Mayor is correct.... and against what Zacharia and I thought they DID move the axle in front of the stanchion to get the 61mm offset - wow....

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  10. #10
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    And despite what the Interweb engineers say...
    The fork is flex free.
    Add in the wide hub...and you have a stiff front end.
    The non Lefty Trigger 29s have 51 off set forks ( despite what the website geo chart says)
    And....a lot of bike companies spec different off sets on the same frames ( take a look at the Fisher / Trek lines)

  11. #11
    I Tried Them ALL... Moderator
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    Oh, I'd like to see how that one goes...
    "The mind will quit....well before the body does"

  12. #12
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    Cannondale did move the axle forward so that they could rotate the whole fork and change the clamp position so that a shorter stem could be used w/o interference with the fork top. That offset is not what is being discussed.

    The rake of the fork is not 61mm according to the Cannondale web site where they themselves specify it as 53mm. A crude measurement of the Trigger 29er 2 rake showed roughly 2", and I am relatively certain that there is not a 8-10 mm difference between the Lefty and the two legged fork models, as I had measured the Lefty model previously before it was sold from the LBS and came away with thinking it was very close to 2" as well.

    I'll be checking the 2014 catalog this week too, and if Cannondale committed the 53mm rake of the Trigger 29er to print, I'm going to call it legit.
    2013 Ibis Ripley
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  13. #13
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    Note that the geo charts on the Trigger 29 1 and Trigger 29 2 are identical. The geometry is what the frame was designed and measured around and both bikes use the same frame.

    The forks on the other hand are different. The SuperMax breaks convention and uses a 60mm offset to improve low speed handling.

    Ride a Trigger 29 1 and a 2 back to back and you will feel the difference.

  14. #14
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    I have ridden both, although only the 2 for an extended ride. I don't believe that Cannondale (or anyone) would spec a fork with a nearly 20% difference in rake between models of the same bike. That would change the handling very dramatically. In addition, my measurement of both bikes corroborates that. I agree that the two forks could have different rakes, but I think that 10mm is far too different to believe. In fact, I suspect that the Trigger 29er 2 is using the same fork as the Ripley 140mm with the 51mm offset, and the 53mm measurement probably comes from the Lefty SuperMax fork. How can you tell what the actual rake is on a Fox fork? Is it encoded into the serial and/or model number on the fork somewhere?
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  15. #15
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    Cannondale Trigger 29er

    It is Cannondale and will always do things a little differently.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by wv_rider View Post
    Cannondale Trigger 29er

    It is Cannondale and will always do things a little differently.
    The URL gives it all away: PREVIEW.

    I'm still taking the info on Cannondale's own site over the year old information from the previews.

    Here's what I think has happened--they measured or were told that the axle on the lower leg compared to the non-SuperMax Lefty was offset by some value that (would have) increased the rake to 61mm. However, Cannondale also rotated the fork anti-clockwise (viewed from above) and adjusted the clamp position and length accordingly and that moved the fork closer to even with the head tube, thereby shortening the rake value by the 8-10mm. I think that someone took liberties and simply equated "offset of axle" to "rake of the fork" which are not the same. Cannondale perhaps neglected to say the actual rake was then pulled back by the fork rotation they did to accommodate shorter stems in the same area in the preview information. I do recall that they were touting that they changed the fork position to be able to accommodate 50mm stems where you couldn't really use any stem with less than 75mm on Cannondale Lefty bikes.

    On previous Lefty shocks, the axle is centered on the lower leg and all of the 46mm of rake in the bikes comes from the angle of the clamps onto the steerer. Looking at the picture of the Trigger 29er 1 on Cannondale's site, it appears that the rake due to the clamps is probably somewhere around 25-32mm now. The tubes actually appear to overlap by 7-8mm or so, and taking center to center suggests that they are 38mm/2 for the steerer tube (19mm) less the 7mm of overlap, giving 12mm, plus 40mm/2 of the upper leg, netting 32mm. And looking at a closeup of the Lefty SuperMax itself (130mm Cannondale Lefty Super Max 29er ?Fork? Weighed, Now Shipping), it appears that the axle is offset from the center of the lower 36mm leg by maybe 25mm? It looks like one side of the axle itself is about even with the lower leg and the center of it is therefore 7-8mm further. 18mm + 7mm = 25mm. That total of clamp + axle offset adds up to 47 to 57mm of rake. Those are all just WAGs based on eyeballing the photos, mind you.

    I could still be incorrect, but then Cannondale's own site is incorrect as well. There is no way they have an 8-10mm difference in rake between two different models of the same frame. To achieve that and have anything near the same trail measurement, they would have to be mucking about with both axle to crown and head tube angles. There simply are not enough degrees of freedom between the forks to make it so. They are similar in A2C, identical in travel, and they probably keep to within 0.5 of head tube angle. Do you really think that Cannondale would increase the rake by 8-10mm and decrease the trail by a likewise amount? One would be a pig at slow speed (relative to the other) and a commendable descender while the other would be great at slow, tight stuff and terrible to point downhill.

    It is not impossible, but quite implausible. As I said above, if they committed the 53mm rake figure to print with the amount of lead time (from late last summer, after the 2013 catalog was already printed) to the 2014 catalog printing, I am taking that as close to gospel as possible in this day and age when dealing with corporations more interested in sales than transparency.

    If someone has access to a Lefty SuperMax and could measure it carefully, it could clear up a whole lot of confusion.
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  17. #17
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    DRSpalding: Some good thinking/speculating..... makes sense. Yes, I'd be stoked if it were actually 53mm offset (or there-abouts) 61mm offset is pretty extreme. a 130 travel 53mm offset would be pretty perfect for my Ripley...

    The video of the Trigger 29er says specifically "a radical 61mm offset" and even gives a basic diagram... so I'm hoping the video is incorrect....
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  18. #18
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    Well......there is a LOT of incorrect numbers on Cdale's website and catalogs.
    And 2 huge errors in the Trigger manual.
    But they had a numbers breakdown on the fork at last year's meeting.
    If I get a case of Nerditus....I will measure my fork.
    And for the record...I think the Trigger 3 turns noticably different than my bike...but it also has a different shock.

    Like I said...I tried a Reba ( which I think was 46 offset), a G2 Fox and a DT Swiss XCM ( which has a 40 offset) on my Lenz Leviathan. They all steered different....but nothing earth shattering.

  19. #19
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    Ok, the 2014 dealer catalog (online version) says the following:

    Trigger 29 1 Carbon with carbon Lefty Supermax, 60mm rake.
    Trigger 29 3 Alloy with Fox CTD 140mm fork, 51mm rake.

    I'll be able to measure it when the LBS gets a Trigger 29er Carbon 1 in a couple of months, but rather than clearing it up (to me at least!) they have confused me more with the large difference in rake between the Lefty and standard fork unless the geometry of the carbon frame is different from the alloy version.

    Mea culpa I guess. :|
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  20. #20
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    Or maybe...
    Instead of obsessing over a arbitrary number...which may or may not be correct...
    And which...when combined with all the other numbers and angles which make a bike....may or may not mean Jack Shite....
    I'm gonna go ride my bikes....

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by the mayor View Post
    Or maybe...
    Instead of obsessing over a arbitrary number...which may or may not be correct...
    And which...when combined with all the other numbers and angles which make a bike....may or may not mean Jack Shite....
    I'm gonna go ride my bikes....
    Yes agreed..... and I'm gonna try out my 2013 Lefty on my Ripley and just see how it feels/handles :-) "correct" numbers or not...
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by CactusJackSlade View Post
    Yes agreed..... and I'm gonna try out my 2013 Lefty on my Ripley and just see how it feels/handles :-) "correct" numbers or not...
    Man! Don't do it! You are breaking the interwebz rule.
    Plus...when you ride...you will get all tired and sweaty.
    And....while riding last night....suddenly my bike didn't handle as good. Must be the interwebz doubt over the offset.
    Anyone want to buy a Trigger 29 1?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CactusJackSlade View Post
    Yes agreed..... and I'm gonna try out my 2013 Lefty on my Ripley and just see how it feels/handles :-) "correct" numbers or not...

    let me know what you find when you ride the ripley with a lefty. i have been eyeing this, but want to stick with the lefty when i do. since you are so far in to the research it is only fair i let you continue :]

  24. #24
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    I just wanted to point out that no one should be too shocked to see Cannondale marching to a different tune with respect to fork offsets. They may seem to be (and are) out of step with the rest of the industry but perhaps that is because everyone else is failing to listen carefully to the music. There is a supposition about that a well wrought consensus concerning fork offsets, carefully worked out by Fox and Trek/Gary Fisher, now exists . It is jarring to see that consensus which supposedly settled all of the outstanding issues with regard to offsets for classic as well as newly introduced wheel sizes questioned. But, perhaps, things were settled prematurely. Cannondale, anyway, seems to think so.

    In my judgement all Cannondale is doing is revisiting what Gary Fisher started and trying to follow that approach to its logical conclusion. As everyone knows for forks of a given steering angle 29ers require extra offset, when compared to 26in bikes, for mechanical trail - the primary determining factor of steering responsiveness - to be kept roughly the same. What is not often mentioned is that the 51mm offset of a 29er fork roughly equates with a 39mm offset for a 26in fork. But, Gary Fisher and Fox have already moved on from this old world 39mm offset for 26in forks. The future 'standard' was to be 46mm instead. This allowed the almost too good to be true result of a slackened steering angle (i.e. greater stability at speed) and similar responsiveness at low speed (i.e. no increase in mechanical trail or wheel flop). From this point of view it is clear that a 51mm offset on 29er fork is a poor compromise - unless the steering angle is steeper the 29er can't be as responsive as the 26in bike (with 46mm offset forks). Also, failing to take advantage of the slackened steering/head angle means that the 29er can't benefit from the stretched front-centre characteristic of the 26in bike. Cannondale is not out of step. They are just trying to deliver the original promise of that experiment that Gary fisher started. 29ers should probably have fork offsets of 58mm or more and similar steering angles to 26in bikes.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRSpalding View Post
    Ok, the 2014 dealer catalog (online version) says the following:

    Trigger 29 1 Carbon with carbon Lefty Supermax, 60mm rake.
    Trigger 29 3 Alloy with Fox CTD 140mm fork, 51mm rake.


    Mea culpa I guess. :|
    It looks like now they are listing the Lefty Supermax as 53 mm offset on all the Trigger 29ers. So you were right.

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