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Thread: Tug-o-War

  1. #1
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    Tug-o-War

    So, We're having a Tug-o-War with some Duschebag(s) on Big Laguna Trail. For a few weeks now we've been throwing deadfall and rocks on this section of trail that people are overcooking. I realize that it is a highly technical line and scary to some riders. But, our "repairs" that we did on saturday, lasted a mere 24 hours and it was sanitized yet again on sunday!!!! Frustrated, I rebuilt it. Are we wasting our time?


    There was a poster last week who questioned why we do this. I'm taking the time to post this for him, and others with a like mindset who are either too ignorant, or just too wrapped up in the "ME, ME, ME", mentality to grasp what this is about.

    If nothing else, it's a total eyesore! When you're cruising on a beautiul, ribbon of singletrack and you come upon a scarred section, do you think nothing of it? Does it bother you in the least that it is now irreversibly damaged?

    The bottom two pics are a blown out turn that people are overcooking, on the lower section of Noble Canyon.
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    Last edited by Aquaholic; 07-17-2006 at 12:40 PM.
    What the EFF is "All MOUNTAIN"???

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    Hey Steve,

    I feel your pain - but I think your good intentions are in vain...

    TCB and I have noticed a lot more mtn bike newbies, hikers and entire families on bikes on the BLT...sure you've seen.

    Perhaps it's the summer crowds...I really don't think any of the "regulars" are moving the debris.

    Have you talked to the ranger?

    Keep up the good fight.
    It wasn't me

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    Try closing off-the other line instead.

    We've had similar issues up here, but were successful in most cases on the trail-braided areas when we closed the slow-line. It does not work in all cases, but we have had some local success.

    Bikers on the single-tracks tend to not want to be forced into a sharp turned line, and the trail braids quickly emerge, whereas the hikers can easily use either line.

    The hard trick is getting the lines correct in the first place.

    Whenever we do a local re-route and it starts getting used, there always seems to be some variations that pop up in the turns from the actual use. Once we see a desired route emerging, we try to accommodate that route and quickly close-off the other option.

    Hope this helps.





    I

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    Seem pretty minor to me...

    I don't see much in the pictures that make me share your level of concern. The one in the meadow looks worse with all the fire wood piled up.

    I can understand if there are serious erosion concerns but when I road Noble a couple weeks ago I didn't see anything that looked like a problem. Even the cheater line on Window Maker that you pictured in a recent post seemed like a lot to do over nothing.

    I may be a bit jaded, but my experience is a trail stays open until the developers roll in the tractors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rprice
    I don't see much in the pictures that make me share your level of concern. The one in the meadow looks worse with all the fire wood piled up.
    ...
    I may be a bit jaded, but my experience is a trail stays open until the developers roll in the tractors.
    oh my, this should get interesting...

    BUT, before the flame war begins, couldn't this be a good opportunity for a "teachable momement"?
    In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rprice
    I don't see much in the pictures that make me share your level of concern. The one in the meadow looks worse with all the fire wood piled up.

    I can understand if there are serious erosion concerns but when I road Noble a couple weeks ago I didn't see anything that looked like a problem. Even the cheater line on Window Maker that you pictured in a recent post seemed like a lot to do over nothing.

    I may be a bit jaded, but my experience is a trail stays open until the developers roll in the tractors.
    Yep, I agree for the most part. Sometimes you just have to know when to (and when not to) pick your fights. I've seen trails closed for far less and have long since quit trying to apply logic when it comes to the subject of trail access. Pretty much the only time I get spun up over this sort of stuff is when the "new" line is one that promotes erosion. Cutting of switchbacks is MY pet gripe.

    The meadow "wide line" seems well established (rightly or wrongly). God forbid some yoho comes barreling into that section with the intention of taking the wide line only to eat s**t amongst the piled up wood. Let's, for the sake of argument, say the rider is badly hurt, retains an ambulance chasing attorney, sues those folks responsible for piling the wood on an "established" route etc etc etc . . .

    The worst thing about this scenario is that those people most likely to sue are those least likely to abide to established trail use guidelines. Lack of personal responsibility always seems to go hand in hand with an "entitlement" mentality. Sad but true.

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    Blinders off McFly...

    I don't see much in the pictures that make me share your level of concern. The one in the meadow looks worse with all the fire wood piled up.

    Funny...do tell us if you would like us to remove the "firewood" next weekend -- I prefer singletrack over doubletrack. If this were left unchecked it would turn into doubletrack in several months. I personally don't see any reason for letting singletrack turn into double wides. Buuttt... maybe it makes sense if you wanna swill a latte while walking or riding next to your friend. We have Lake Murray for this, and it even comes paved and without the rocks.

    I can understand if there are serious erosion concerns but when I road Noble a couple weeks ago I didn't see anything that looked like a problem. Even the cheater line on Window Maker that you pictured in a recent post seemed like a lot to do over nothing

    Ahhh...this is good...The reason Noble is in the shape that it's in is because SDMBA and non-members like myself donate our time every chance we get to perform work on Noble. The ironic thing is that the turn out for trailwork is usually pretty mediocre compared to the amount of traffic that the trail sees on a given weekend...all while never really giving much thought on how the trail seems to "automatically" brush itself back.

    If you stop at the Widow Maker the next time you're up and look beneath the "firewood" that Aqua and I piled up in the new alternate line, you will notice that the dirt was ground into fine talcum like dirt -- which will cause a large portion of the loose bank to wash downstream after the water rises this winter.

    I dunno about you, but until I can move out to Utah, Montana or Idaho and start cutting my own singletrack I think Noble is the best backcountry trail that we've got in San Diego, and it's worth preserving in it's natural rugged shape... yeeeeesss, without the weenie lines.

    We use this trail a lot, and yeah it does "tick" me off when I see Gu wrappers, old cigarette buts near the jumps, or blown out lines. Wouldn't you get upset if you your neighbors dog kept S***Ting in your front yard every morning? And then, to simply turn a cheek and say that it ain't a big deal.



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    Last edited by Dirty D; 07-17-2006 at 05:20 PM.

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    Many different views...

    Seems that this is a very emotional issue for you and Aquaholic. Passion is fine but don't expect everyone to share your POV.

    The posted pictures in this thread don't strike me as examples of blatant trail abuse. Noble gets a lot of use and under these conditions there will be some sections that get alternate lines. As the other poster indicated, I'd be more worried over some rider impaling themselves on one of the wood piles and making a stink than the existence of some double tracks.

    The jog to the right at the Widow Maker certainly doesn't create a trail closing offense and it certainly isn't a blatant abuse like cutting a switchback to make a more aggressive line. There's enough solid rock at that spot to make me question the erosion argument.

    We need to share the trails with lots of people and a few weenie lines is part of the price. I've seen trails come and go and the existence of places like Noble and SJT aren't hanging on a couple sections of double track and some weenie lines. They're about managing the land use for a broad scope of people. People that react with anger and lack tolerance don't help no matter what side of the fence they are on.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rprice
    Seems that this is a very emotional issue for you and Aquaholic. Passion is fine but don't expect everyone to share your POV.

    The posted pictures in this thread don't strike me as examples of blatant trail abuse. Noble gets a lot of use and under these conditions there will be some sections that get alternate lines. As the other poster indicated, I'd be more worried over some rider impaling themselves on one of the wood piles and making a stink than the existence of some double tracks.

    The jog to the right at the Widow Maker certainly doesn't create a trail closing offense and it certainly isn't a blatant abuse like cutting a switchback to make a more aggressive line. There's enough solid rock at that spot to make me question the erosion argument.

    We need to share the trails with lots of people and a few weenie lines is part of the price. I've seen trails come and go and the existence of places like Noble and SJT aren't hanging on a couple sections of double track and some weenie lines. They're about managing the land use for a broad scope of people. People that react with anger and lack tolerance don't help no matter what side of the fence they are on.

    Great remarks.

    Contrary to what many here think about me, I too am a concerned MTBer that is grateful for all we have, but instead of pointing fingers and making sweeping generalizations about "types" of riders I would rather look at the problem objectively. Who's a bigger problem? Is it someone going wide on a stable corner or someone who decides for everyone that piling jagged logs in the trail will teach them a lesson?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquaholic
    So, We're having a Tug-o-War with some Duschebag(s) on Big Laguna Trail. For a few weeks now we've been throwing deadfall and rocks on this section of trail that people are overcooking. I realize that it is a highly technical line and scary to some riders. But, our "repairs" that we did on saturday, lasted a mere 24 hours and it was sanitized yet again on sunday!!!! Frustrated, I rebuilt it. Are we wasting our time?

    We all can't be as skilled as you.

    There was a poster last week who questioned why we do this. I'm taking the time to post this for him, and others with a like mindset who are either too ignorant, or just too wrapped up in the "ME, ME, ME", mentality to grasp what this is about.

    coming from the guy who decides what he wants the trail to be

    If nothing else, it's a total eyesore! When you're cruising on a beautiul, ribbon of singletrack and you come upon a scarred section, do you think nothing of it? Does it bother you in the least that it is now irreversibly damaged?

    irreversibly damaged HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

    The bottom two pics are a blown out turn that people are overcooking, on the lower section of Noble Canyon.


    You have done us all a service with this post

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    I do not think it looked that bad either. Maybe that line was added to allow a bypass for rider up, rider down conflicts as a safety precausion. Maybe check with the ranger, that could be why it is cleared in twenty-four hours. Just a thought.

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    I think what is aggravating Aquaholic is the fact that someone actually comes out and removes the work that was done. As a person that does trail work, I would be pi$$ed as all he!! if someone came out and removed a bunch of work that was done to improve the trail.
    Always preach the Gospel; even if you need to use words.

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    It is my opinion that these wider lines create speeds inappropriate for this type of Multi-use trail, especially due to its close proximity to a large campground. It is far better that we police ourselves rather than the Forest Service put up No Bikes signs.

    We strive to preserve the look and feel for all user groups, from Hikers to Bikers, Equestrians to Orienteers, Bird Watchers and Artists. I plan on meeting with the Trails Ranger to discuss the situation and determine if any action is required.

    If you wish to discuss this further, please come to the SDMBA meeting at Leucadia Pizzeria in University City at 7pm, 7/18.

    mark@sdmba.com
    Last edited by Hecklermark; 07-17-2006 at 08:47 PM.
    Shuttle Noble? Hell No!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hecklermark
    It is my opinion that these wider lines create speeds inappropriate for this type of Multi-use trail, especially due to its close proximity to a large campground. It is far better that we police ourselves rather than the Forest Service put up No Bikes signs.

    We strive to preserve the look and feel for all user groups, from Hikers to Bikers, Equestrians to Orienteers, Bird Watchers and Artists. I plan on meeting with the Trails Ranger to discuss the situation and determine if any action is required.

    If you wish to discuss this further, please come to the SDMBA meeting at Leucadia Pizzeria in University City at 7pm, 7/18.

    mark@sdmba.com

    great post.

    waging war and booby trapping trails will get these trails closed faster than anything.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy aka Rut
    I think what is aggravating Aquaholic is the fact that someone actually comes out and removes the work that was done. As a person that does trail work, I would be pi$$ed as all he!! if someone came out and removed a bunch of work that was done to improve the trail.
    Andy:

    You're partially correct. There are a few people that consistently show up every time we have a trail day at Noble. A sense of ownership is shared for this special trail whenever we pitch in on a trail day.

    Because of that, I've been getting frustrated and pissed off lately at what I see as a growing apathy out there. We've all seen the empty coke bottles and Clif bar wrappers, and broken reflectors lying in the trail. I see a lot of trail users who simply walk/ride right past it totally oblivious, and wouldn't think twice about picking it up and putting it in their pack.

    I escape to the mountains to get away from the evils of the city. The idiot who is driving around in a constant state of road rage, flipping people off on the freeway. The impolite, selfish fock who cuts in line at the gas station. After a long week of it, I find myself slipping into this state of craziness as well. I escape to the mountains to recharge my batteries and then I'm good for another week.

    I think we all want the same thing from our sport. We're out there to put a grin on our faces and get some exercise.

    I have come to expect and resigned to the reality that this is just the way things are in our overcrowded city. It just bums me out when I see our little sanctuary in the mountains getting trashed, whether it's littering or abuse of our trails. When I see scarring of the trail, like the examples that I've shared here...it detracts from that experience. Singletrack that has been transformed into a wide blown out mess is preventable.

    I'm glad that there are people who share this sentiment and really do give a schit. Their actions matter. And I'm proud to run with them.
    Last edited by Aquaholic; 07-17-2006 at 11:10 PM.
    What the EFF is "All MOUNTAIN"???

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    Exactly, wider turn=too fast a speed=incompatibility with other users. Aqua or anyone else seeing lines and changes deviating from the design of a trail please create any deterant to encourage the intended use of a trail=continued co-existence=continued use of the trail. It is just that simple. Trails on State and Federal land has been designed for the use of many. This means some moderation by all. Common sense. Where does bombing downhill at high speeds leaving the original trail line and endangering others fit in. It only fits in if you are the only one out there. You are not!!!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy aka Rut
    I think what is aggravating Aquaholic is the fact that someone actually comes out and removes the work that was done. As a person that does trail work, I would be pi$$ed as all he!! if someone came out and removed a bunch of work that was done to improve the trail.
    I agree


    here is what I do and it works................


    dig a hole in the ground about 2 feet down and about a little over a bike wheel width.....cover it with light branches and leaves.........presto no one rides that line

    P.S. don't tell me BS unless you actually put time into building and maintaining trails
    Last edited by SHIVER ME TIMBERS; 07-18-2006 at 01:47 AM.
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    I've been riding the trails up there for about 18 years. Over those years I've seen lines change. I've seen the singletrack that was once off limits to bikes, opened up and probably through the efforts of people like yourself. I know the last time I rode Noble, I noticed how the condition of the trail had improved and remembered how bad the trail had gotten over the years.(remember the rangers with radar guns?).

    The meadow trail, over the years has gone through some changes. I still can't find the metal utility hole the trail used to go over to the the ranchers fence line. After Cuyamaca burned, I ride almost every weekend (Sat. and Sunday) up there. I really enjoy the singletrack,doubletrack, and some of the fire roads that head up into the woods. When I can, I get my buddies up early and we leave a truck at the Noble trailhead. We have the option to drop down out of the BLM land and enjoy Noble with many thanks to the efforts of the many people involved in trail maintenance.

    Looking at the picture, I am very familiar with this turn. I can see maybe why someone forged this new line. Maybe while going around that turn(at speed) someone had a near miss with a hiker or another bike. It looks like the wider sweep might give a little more sight ahead to avoid a collision. I am just guessing, as I have not had any bad experience at that turn. Maybe they just were going too fast and just didn't want to slow down. I don't know. Someone suggested closing the original line. This would maintain the single track and give a little more sweep and sight ahead.

    I would suggest maybe getting the BLM involved. Maybe an official sign or some kind of temp tape line after having a Ranger decide what to do. I don't think anyone has the right to decide what is best unless the BLM is involved.
    I think there is some kind of volunteer group at Mt Laguna also. I think a group effort with the blessing of the BLM or the Rangers at Mt Laguna is the best way to proceed.

    I respect your passion and commitment to the sport you love. I think trail education is an important way to keep the trails open to all users, along with volunteer trail work. Maybe a little reminder to stay on the existing trails is the thing to do here. I did see the picture you posted about the Noble Canyon and agree with some kind of measure being taken to avoid that section being washed out.

    Those are just my thoughts on this. I'd hate to see this evolve into a situation like ATT. I used to enjoy that trail until the bad press and trail head closure turned me off. I hope to see you on the trail up there. I am that crazy guy(by himself) unloading my bike out of old Ford Ranger sometime between 5:30 - 6 AM and heading out to catch a glimpse of some wildlife.

    Will someone do something about those cows. They keep establishing new singletrack all over the meadow. What's a MTBer to do!
    [size=4]Don[/size]

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    Ignorance is Bliss

    Quote Originally Posted by rprice
    Seems that this is a very emotional issue for you and Aquaholic. Passion is fine but don't expect everyone to share your POV.



    The jog to the right at the Widow Maker certainly doesn't create a trail closing offense and it certainly isn't a blatant abuse like cutting a switchback to make a more aggressive line. There's enough solid rock at that spot to make me question the erosion argument.


    What looks like an innoculous, harmless, little alternative line created to the right of the widowmaker inevitably accelerates erosion, Rocks or not. There's evidence of it all over the lower desert sections of Noble as well. Take a close look at Stairway to Hell next time you ride it. The weenies(many of them on big bikes), are pushing the trail right into the canyon with an alternative, outside line.


    "We need to share the trails with lots of people and a few weenie lines is part of the price".

    Bzzzzt. Wrong.



    RPrice... It's REAL obvious that people don't share my POV. Some people don't share my POV about smoking cigarettes on the trail, either. Again. there are plenty of people in user groups across the board who simply don't give a crap.

    My rant isn't aimed at any specific user group. It's not about DH'ers vs XC'ers. There's just as many equestrians and hikers doing stupid schit out there as anyone else.

    Like it or not...We've gone over this with the forest service. Boulders are going to get placed in an attempt to keep people ON THE TRAIL.


    Offtheedge(appropriate name). You seem like a smart, articulate guy. But, you're coming off like a total IDIOT.
    Last edited by Aquaholic; 07-18-2006 at 09:57 AM.
    What the EFF is "All MOUNTAIN"???

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    wow, this thread has really brought out everyone and their uncle!! emotions are running high. i will refrain from being my usual smarta$$ self and only say one thing. aqua, please don't mentioned BLT and technical in the same sentence. (that is a true dis of trails that are actually technical

    now, let others commence the rant, its very enertaining.

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    Ignorance is bliss but so is acceptance ...

    RPrice... It's REAL obvious that people don't share my POV. Some people don't share my POV about smoking cigarettes on the trail, either. Again. there are plenty of people in user groups across the board who simply don't give a crap.

    My rant isn't aimed at any specific user group. It's not about DH'ers vs XC'ers. There's just as many equestrians and hikers doing stupid schit out there as anyone else.

    Like it or not...We've gone over this with the forest service. Boulders are going to get placed in an attempt to keep people ON THE TRAIL.


    I actually understand your frustration over the preception of trail abuse. I grew up in the Sierras of NoCal and moving to SoCal 20+ years ago was a serious shock when faced with what I thought was a complete lack of concern over environmental issues. But with time I came to understand that most people here grow up in suburban jungles and don't necessarily share the same appreciation for open space and the wilderness.

    I've also experienced 2-3hr rides in North Country shrink to 20mins (Knots, Alliso Canyon/Elfin Forest, Flightline, Discovery Hills, RP Power Station...) because of housing developments, but also lost a favorite loop in Mission Trails (Mast Blvd) because the environmentalists sued the Military at Miramar for not protecting dormant shrimp. I also watched the war by the landowner at Anderson Truck trail. In all these situations people on both sides felt their side was right and the other wrong. In most cases the feelings were so intense that emotions turned to anger and rage.

    It's quite possible that someone saw the piles of wood and wanted to stick it to a "Trail Nazi" or it might be possible that someone viewed the wood as a trail hazard. Who really knows but in either case people are going to feel the same level of justification taking exactly opposite positions.

    The examples of trail abuse in this thread are a bit over blown when compared to places like SJT and unlike SJT, the Noble trail isn't as sensitive to sloppy lines. The Stairway to Hell is a spot for concern, but that line has been around for years. I don't know how it started but it's possible the fixed rocks bumped riders off line who posted on the downhill and created the wide line which in turn people followed to avoid the rocks. Probably most of the riders have no clue about the impact. People can call it a weenie line and get worked up or just consider it trail use. But whichever, the line has been there for a few years and if it creates a bigger problem when the next 20yr storm rolls through it can be fixed.

    Approaching these trail issues with a bit more acceptance will certainly avoid the anger and keep riding a pleasure. Looking for a fight will just make one.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dft
    wow, this thread has really brought out everyone and their uncle!! emotions are running high. i will refrain from being my usual smarta$$ self and only say one thing. aqua, please don't mentioned BLT and technical in the same sentence. (that is a true dis of trails that are actually technical

    now, let others commence the rant, its very enertaining.
    Hey, wacpm, I'm a noob, so BLT is tech stuff for me. Thanks for the cautionary alert, Aqua.

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    Aqua, I understand your frusration at having your work undone, and I appreciate your concern, but maybe there is another lesson or two to be learned here.

    My honest opinion after looking carefully at the first two pictures is that there is a big, ugly, out of place, and potentially hazardous pile of deadwood on a corner of the trail that you describe as having a problem because some people take the corner too fast.

    I don't think it is productive to assign motives or atttiudes to unknown people. It's quite possible some well meaning person scattered the wood because they didn't realize why it was there, or thought it looked ugly and unnatural, or thought it was a safety hazard.

    So people are blowing through this corner too fast. How do they learn to take it slower? Experience. But there are always going to be new folks riding the trail, or folks who misjudge the corner, and so on. Seems to me that if it is crucial this corner doesn't get widened or re-routed, then perhaps the trail approaching the corner needs a little re-design to encourage folks to scrub some speed before the corner in question.

  24. #24
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    you're a bunch of

    hard line, hard line, hard line after hard line

  25. #25
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    I enjoy trail maintenance of this type also. I really hate it when people cut corners, or take them too wide. I did an easy trail a couple weeks ago in the Jackson Hole area, and had to pile up logs and rocks on an inside track. Are people in so much of a hurry that they can't take a corner without cutting it?

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