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  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    This is what bothers me about trail closures in general. So many of the trails have been around for decades.

    No wildlife is being harmed by the trails being there so long. No species went extinct from it, and the local wildlife use those trails as well.

    the entire situation is odd and sad.
    In the eco-extremist state of Cali, you only need the shrill histrionics of a few enviros, concerned about fairy shrimp and button celery, to shout down the masses that are begging for just a little more trail access.

  2. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    There's a strange mindset we mtbr's have when it comes to trails built illegally on land we don't own.

    When the time comes that the landowner starts to execute his/her goals for said land we scream bloody murder that those evil people are stealing our trails.

    We blame the city, we blame the wildlife agencies, we blame anyone other than ourselves.

    We now have some situations where land with illegal trails is having ownership transferred to city/county/state.

    Whether some or none of those illegal trails will become legalized is directly tied to the perception of mountain bikers impact on environmentally protected lands.

    Put it this way. They are ours to lose.

    We can man up and act responsibly or we can cowboy up and screw over the next generation of riders.
    Illegal trail building works... as long as you're not a rider:

    “As for the La Cuenta trail, from what I understand, the group took responsibility for that and we are now trying to permit that trail,” wrote Chris Zirkle, director of the city’s Open Space Division. “In regards to the trails being widened…the existing trails have had little to no change to them.... [U]ntil a final trails plan is approved and permitted, [the trail blazers] have been restricted to only conducting maintenance on established trails. Our hope is that through the permitting process unauthorized impacts will be addressed, including the recommendation for closure of some trails that are not safe and sustainable.”

    You got a permit for that trail? | San Diego Reader

  3. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    You know, It's pretty sad and messed up that we have to use tax payer money and resources to decommission a trail. Isn't there a better use of time and money?

    At least they will have a brand new ranger station soon.......
    The A.C.E. crew was hired to clear corridor on Black Mountain - must be done per certain monitoring criteria, so not an option for us to do that work. Took a few months to secure the funding.

    Meanwhile (a few weeks back) A.C.E had a job cancel out and donated 10 days of their labor to SDMBA. As the Black Mountain Ranger Staff also oversees 6 other open space parks they opted to use A.C.E to do work at those parks so that they too could concentrate on Black Mountain trail builds this winter.

    That the situation at DMM is what it is today - and we can argue right, wrong, indifferent, shades of gray etc etc but I think, as adults, we can all agree that the status quo (incomplete trails network, vandalism, habitat destruction) is untenable. The city must take action and it looks like the immediate decision was to reprioritize the A.C.E. crew to rehab T-3.

    Come on people . . . we need new trails. We're green lighted to build new trails. Just need corridors cleared. The crew IS up on Black Mountain today. Let's keep them on Black Mountain (by not f-ing up at DMM).

  4. #504
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    Ya know...any MTBR regular that bounces around the forums knows that Sedona has been going thru this type of stuff (minus the Coastal Commission) the past few years. Tons of "bandit/rogue" trails were built over the years. The Forest Service finally came in and closed some trails and legalized others. This same issue also went on in Breckenridge, Colorado and is currently going on in Durango as well. Without outright condoning illegal activity, it almost seems that it's better to build, build, build then ask for forgiveness or hope the trails get accepted into a trail network because the "city" (or other management entity) realizes how well the trails are working. That probably won't work here though because the City of SD management is blatantly incompetent.

    Disclaimer: I've only ridden at DMM once (3-4 weeks ago) and other than this website, know nothing of it's "history". Just learned that the "trails" have been there since 1964 ten minutes ago. If that's the case, they obviously aren't hurting anything.

  5. #505
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    Just came back from a ride at La Costa. Lots of habitat signs up along with lots of good trails. How come they can coexist there and not at DMM? What we need is something similar down here. Hopefully that can happen at Black Mountain.

    The prospect for something new at PQ park seems pretty remote, even thought its overwhelmed with users making their way to the waterfall.

  6. #506
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    It's impossible to prove when trails first came to Deer Canyon. You can't bloody see the trails because they are under the canopy.

    In terms of habitat sensitivity: Ask yourself if Deer canyon is unique or are there other canyons that are identical.

    It's as unique as Torrey Pines. The vernal pools on the mesa are not so different than other mesa vernal pools but they are THE vernal pools that are slated to be protected and saved from being turned into a shopping mall.

    We don't get to ride Torrey Pines. We do get to ride DMM.

    That is the real significance of achieving this trails plan. Yes, your glass is half-empty. Time to quit dwelling on that and start enjoying the half-full bit.

    See what I did there? Opened up the door for some wisecracker to state that we had a vast trails network on DMM and now we've been handed a half vast network.

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    You know why it's unique? Because they haven't freaking developed it, that's why!

    I'm tired of all the ******** about habitat destruction when they:
    - backfill all the vernal pools on Alta Del Mar
    - approve 500+ homes to go in within a 10mi radius
    - backfill Camino Del Sur instead of making an overpass over the habitat
    - approve mixed use development south of the Mobil station
    - on and f*cking on

  8. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    ...and now we've been handed a half vast network.

  9. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    It's impossible to prove when trails first came to Deer Canyon. You can't bloody see the trails because they are under the canopy.

    In terms of habitat sensitivity: Ask yourself if Deer canyon is unique or are there other canyons that are identical.

    It's as unique as Torrey Pines. The vernal pools on the mesa are not so different than other mesa vernal pools but they are THE vernal pools that are slated to be protected and saved from being turned into a shopping mall.

    We don't get to ride Torrey Pines. We do get to ride DMM.

    That is the real significance of achieving this trails plan. Yes, your glass is half-empty. Time to quit dwelling on that and start enjoying the half-full bit.

    See what I did there? Opened up the door for some wisecracker to state that we had a vast trails network on DMM and now we've been handed a half vast network.
    The area has had trails which have moved around due to development. I am probably not unique in my long tenure here in San Diego (since 1967) nor Penasquitos (since 1991) but even the name Del Mar Mesa is much newer than many of the trails in question. I never really heard that name before they started calling it sensitive and placing fences. In the 70 cow roamed the canyon proper The area was considered open space. The main horse ranch was in Sorrento Valley as the PQ one was a turn around for us as the Horse Ranch thee now was only accessible by dirt roads.

    In the mid Eighties when I got my first mountain bike the trail network was different as where Park Village is now had good riding and the DMM especially the area of tunnels was to be avoided as there was a small city of migrant workers that worked the local farms of Carmel Valley.

    In the early 90's they were essentially cleared to make way for Park Village the area was considered open space still. After the migrants were cleared the area became more open for bikers. Full disclosure I did not ride in this area at this time as I took a break in riding from about 1999 to 2006 and most of my riding in the 90's was not in the canyon but for all intent and purpose the area was considered open space.

    It is not until somewhere in the 2000s that we see habitat closures and suddenly it becomes and issue. I would think this is most likely funded by the proposition H if you are for the 56 you are for H campaign where the Sierra club signed off on the redevelopment of the previously off limit building of homes in Carmel Valley/PQ corridor to the tune of 10k homes.

    It is amazing how less environmentally sensitive the area was after the great stewards of the Sierra club received 8 million dollars to support Prop H

    As far as what trail was where I cannot say but the "environmentally sensitive" was considered open space from when I was a child to adulthood. I disagree we disturb the natural balance as bikers hikers and equestrians and we should have access to established trails for our enjoyment.

    However City Official due pressure from Environmental Groups whom will open their legs for money disagree. Now the bureaucrats chisel away at open space as they change the City Plan (H) and we are supposed to sit and accept it without question.

    Again the fight back from Bankerboy and apparently yourself and other MTB advocates is applauded. You have taken a stand and more than helped. The opening of Tunnel 4 and other areas is applauded by myself and I think most of the MTB community. But the fact remains that there was a bigger trail network that was open and is now closed including the parts now that have been open for no reason other than they can.

    The area cannot be developed for anything at such time until they take a bulldozer to it. I am fairly certain on all the closure we speak of that you cannot obtain a building permit. Just like the entire area that was rezoned due to Prop H. But we cannot ride a bike in this established network of trails just because.

    If the environmentalist that have pushed this agenda so hard if they were smart they we realize we are actually on the same side. We wish to see the area undeveloped. We have money and a voice. We should stand together to prevent future development of the area. But instead they battle us for the cause of mystical fairy shrimp and push us into smaller and smaller corners. Their agenda is anti human traffic in the middle of a City.

    And you question why we are reluctant to accept this mandate?

  10. #510
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    No one is arguing that the population influx over the last 25 years has been painful. Within another 25 most of the undeveloped land that was not set aside for preservation will be more houses, stores, and offices. This is not a question of if but when.

    There was enough foresight to set aside land for designated open space. Much of the land you are referring to was not open space as we view it now. It was large parcels of land that was privately owned. There were rules on selling and developing it that slowed the pace of growth. Once the public voted in favor of the prop, it was a land grab for developers.

    4S Ranch really was a ranch. Cows ran in PQ up until the late 80's. I played cowboy more than once on my bike in there until one day a heifer stood up for itself (another story, another day) Once Prop H and a few others were passed, that all changed. It was then that the land we know a PQ, McGonigal, Gonzalez, Lake Hodges, San Dieguito, and Black Mountain were first set aside as designated open space rather than the open space where you could do as you please. Now we have the guaranteed open spaces that cannot be developed under law. That is a good thing given the rapid increase in the build-out of the area.

    Driven down the 56 lately or looked at the valley across the street from Oak Valley Middle school?

    Since there is more and more development, there is an obligation on the city to protect the designated open spaces and its habitats. We are close to the top of the food chain and definitely the dominant species. The animals and plants need their space too. It naive to believe we do not have an impact.

    A lot of the anger I am perceiving is based on the development outside the property lines of the preserve. All of those developments have been on the books since the late 90's. They are not new. Yes, there were trails on them and they were great. Once the plow hits the ground they are gone forever. Unless we get in front of the developer prior to plans being drawn up, it is really hard to get concessions.

    But none of this matters in the Del Mar Mesa. For some reason there is a feeling that the city is trying to screw us over. Fact is this has been on the books since 2009. All they are asking for is really simple. If there is a fence, don't go in there. The DMM was great when it was unregulated. But ask any moto rider about SD old and SD current. Laws change, access changes, and we have to change too. We have tons of trails beyond the DMM. Go explore and vent out the anger in the saddle. You can put in multiple 20+mile loops and several 50+ mile with little or no redundancy. Don't let 1.5 miles of tunnel 3 ruin it for you.

    On the plus side, the trial crew is out on Black Mountain today working on the latest extension to last years trail work. More on that later.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  11. #511
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    The comparison of lands developed (per community master plans) to what percentage of social trails were included in the plan are a common theme in the debate on-line.

    I totally understand the frustration in declining open space and then within the saved open space a further decline in trails available.

    I can't put the genie back in the bottle in DMM. The lesson is that all new developments need to include a trails component. Reactive trails advocacy yields compromised results. Proactive trails advocacy - get trails plans in those community and master plans is the key for success moving forward.

    Pacific Highlands (Pardee) includes a trails plan but it's rubbish. I'm talking that new stuff going in south of Carmel Valley road, either side of 56, west of tunnels. The "trails" will allow linkage from Gonzales Canyon to McGonigle Canyon but they aren't trails, they are PAVED, adjacent to road. Pretty much what most of us call "sidewalks". Insert sound of clenched fist meeting forehead . . .

    By the time I became aware of that, the ship had long sailed. On east side of tunnels though we have a progressive developer (trail runner) and a much better outcome is in the offing.

    Black Mountain Ranch (Lusardi - including Santa Luz, Del Sur etc) has a master trails plan. While many of these are repurposed old farm roads, the new alignments will be single tracks - The Ahwee trail built last year being one such trail in the plan. The key here is for us to remain engaged with the (home) builder and with city staff to advocate for quality alignments and use volunteers to do the builds rather than letting Bubba loose with his dozer.

    The ongoing stuff at DMM though is eating time and energy away from making positive strides elsewhere locally. I'd much rather have you guys riding my ass as to what is taking so long to get new stuff built than being in free fall mode lamenting the DMM trails plan. It is what is. Is what it is going to be. It's not going to change. We have to move on folks.

  12. #512
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    Here is a side of the city you don't hear about enough. They are spending a lot of money for another trials plan close by at Black Mountain.

    Black Mountain Trail Plan 2015/2016 begins

    This is proof the city is not out to get bike riders.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  13. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Here is a side of the city you don't hear about enough. They are spending a lot of money for another trials plan close by at Black Mountain.

    Black Mountain Trail Plan 2015/2016 begins

    This is proof the city is not out to get bike riders.
    Can't wait to start digging at BM again. Come on rains!

    <break>

    "Trail work" as defined by my wife: "Yard work in the wrong ****ing yard."

  14. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    The comparison of lands developed (per community master plans) to what percentage of social trails were included in the plan are a common theme in the debate on-line.

    I totally understand the frustration in declining open space and then within the saved open space a further decline in trails available.

    I can't put the genie back in the bottle in DMM. The lesson is that all new developments need to include a trails component. Reactive trails advocacy yields compromised results. Proactive trails advocacy - get trails plans in those community and master plans is the key for success moving forward.

    Pacific Highlands (Pardee) includes a trails plan but it's rubbish. I'm talking that new stuff going in south of Carmel Valley road, either side of 56, west of tunnels. The "trails" will allow linkage from Gonzales Canyon to McGonigle Canyon but they aren't trails, they are PAVED, adjacent to road. Pretty much what most of us call "sidewalks". Insert sound of clenched fist meeting forehead . . .

    By the time I became aware of that, the ship had long sailed. On east side of tunnels though we have a progressive developer (trail runner) and a much better outcome is in the offing.

    Black Mountain Ranch (Lusardi - including Santa Luz, Del Sur etc) has a master trails plan. While many of these are repurposed old farm roads, the new alignments will be single tracks - The Ahwee trail built last year being one such trail in the plan. The key here is for us to remain engaged with the (home) builder and with city staff to advocate for quality alignments and use volunteers to do the builds rather than letting Bubba loose with his dozer.

    The ongoing stuff at DMM though is eating time and energy away from making positive strides elsewhere locally. I'd much rather have you guys riding my ass as to what is taking so long to get new stuff built than being in free fall mode lamenting the DMM trails plan. It is what is. Is what it is going to be. It's not going to change. We have to move on folks.
    Ok fair enough. The eco freaks have done more damage to tunnel 3 in one weekend than riders have done in decades. and that sucks I will move forward

    One thing though is the comunication of the SDMBA is rather lacking. I only joined last year and really have never been updated via email. My reason was the Arch Ride

    If we are going to collectively raise our voices for change to a greater level there has to be a reach out to the all members on a regular basis. Besides my thanks for registration and show up here for the ride there has been no email correspondence from them what so ever. I just checked my box. I do not know if I am unique and have simply been overlooked as a member but if you want a grass roots movement watering the grass now and again would be wise

  15. #515
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    Gallo-I think you may have just been left off the email list. I have been getting near weekly updates. Right on the top of their website is a sign up.

    I just got a mailing for SDMBA's Trail Access Fund, which seems to be what we need at the moment. If any of you have not gotten the flyer, please go to San Diego Mountain Biking Association to make a donation. All money stays here in SD.

    Thanks for the positive news Bankerboy! And it looks like we got our rain.

  16. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Here is a side of the city you don't hear about enough. They are spending a lot of money for another trials plan close by at Black Mountain.

    Black Mountain Trail Plan 2015/2016 begins

    This is proof the city is not out to get bike riders.
    What makes it "easier" to get trails added at BM than most other SD areas?

    Are there no endangered species there?

    Is it not suitable for more houses or mini-malls?

    What is it, BB...?

  17. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTSO2112 View Post
    What makes it "easier" to get trails added at BM than most other SD areas?

    Are there no endangered species there?

    Is it not suitable for more houses or mini-malls?

    What is it, BB...?
    A lot of Del Mar Mesa is mitigation land which the city/agencies would tell us is meant for preservation, not recreation. BM is an existing open space park, not mitigation land. That is a huge difference.

  18. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post

    One thing though is the comunication of the SDMBA is rather lacking. I only joined last year and really have never been updated via email. My reason was the Arch Ride
    Have you signed up for trail news? that'll give you a SDMBA update every week. Facebook page is updated almost daily. And there is a monthly advocacy meeting where you can get a serious inside scoop on the status of just about any trail system. So you can be about as informed as you want to between those three options.

  19. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by evdog View Post
    A lot of Del Mar Mesa is mitigation land which the city/agencies would tell us is meant for preservation, not recreation. BM is an existing open space park, not mitigation land. That is a huge difference.
    ^^^That is probably the biggest thing but I have to give props to Rodster. He has been on the RPQ council for years and a major component of the Black Mountain CAC. He was working with Ranger Ed Christensen for better than 6 years to get through the Negative Declaration and onto the city's radar. The map what we are building from saw the public light of day less than 18 months ago.

    The lessons learned from PQ were applied at Black Mountain in things like partnering with the City, Open Space, City Biologists, Developers, and Private land holders. These partnerships have flourished and it is making easier on other projects. This is why I get so upset when people challenge what has happened in Tunnels. The public spoke, the city and other agencies listened enough to get trails where none were previously allowed. It was a crummy compromise, riddled with issues yet to be resolved, but it was the first time this sort of thing happened. We cannot afford to lose the help because a rider feels they are owed a particular trail just because they have always rode it.

    The next steps is trail planning evolution is getting in front of developers of future construction. There is no guarantees we will get to keep the trails on their lands but I am starting to see some changes. The developer of the mansions on the north side of Black Mountain has approached us about trails in and around the community. There is another large developer who has approached us for help with a new trail. These will not add up to much but you have to start small and grow from there. A bigger developer in the south as expressed some interest in trail development well beyond the cursory 1/4 mile 8' wide DG path originally stated in their plans

    So to say Del Mar Mesa was the first to get there really is not quite correct but many the lessons learned there are helping with other projects throughout the county.

    This would also be a great time to give props to the other instrumental event that put mountain biking in front of the city staff. The Mission Trails protest ride 2+ years ago definitely got their attention. It will take a village to get this done.

    Thought for the day

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  20. #520
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    Hello Bighammer.

    I see you have climbed back from under your bridge?
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

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    Quote Originally Posted by D_Man View Post
    Have you signed up for trail news? that'll give you a SDMBA update every week. Facebook page is updated almost daily. And there is a monthly advocacy meeting where you can get a serious inside scoop on the status of just about any trail system. So you can be about as informed as you want to between those three options.
    Thanks just signed up. Odd that I was not opted in as a member

  22. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Here is a side of the city you don't hear about enough. They are spending a lot of money for another trials plan close by at Black Mountain.

    Black Mountain Trail Plan 2015/2016 begins

    This is proof the city is not out to get bike riders.
    I wouldn't say the city is out to get bikers.
    I would say city managers and planners have grossly ignored a large user population whilst underestimating the benefits of catering to that user group.

    Further, reading things like the city is considering enforcement of park closures after hours and ticketing of riders in the dark is absurd and continues to prove the point that the decision makers are out of touch with reality.

    A short example:
    Cowles main trail after dark. I can sit and see hundreds of headlamps a night.
    While technically closed after dusk, never have I read a mention of ticketing hikers for being there after dark.

    Simple solution, parks are open after dark on even number days.

  23. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by ressaw View Post
    The City of San Diego Parks dept. is planning on destroying DMM trails starting November 14-maybe sooner. Your tax dollars at work.
    In 2012 some folks cut "new trails" in city open space and got busted doing so. The rehab costs were quoted at $65,000. The D.A. was looking for reimbursement costs plus.

    That's a direct apples to apples comparison to the rehab of the trails not included in the DMM plan. The only difference is the builders did not get caught in the act and the rehab activities are proceeding many years after the initital habitat disturbance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocd View Post
    Simple solution, parks are open after dark on even number days.
    Why not every day? The better solution would be to just ignore the after dark users. If they just close their eyes for a minute, it will be like no one was ever there.
    Mountain bikers, hikers and horseback riders are not the enemy. Bulldozers are the enemy.

  25. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by outside! View Post
    Why not every day? The better solution would be to just ignore the after dark users. If they just close their eyes for a minute, it will be like no one was ever there.
    nocturnal critters, give em every other day to take care of business.

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    The man was out in force on Sunday one parked at Tunnel 4 and another at the end of North Rim Trail, couldn't even tell Tunnel 3 was ever there at the bottom. Funny how there always seems to be an infinite supply of endangered habitat to use for brushing trails.

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    I found it odd as it has been quite a while that I have seen one vehicle and saw two on the same day. Pretty obvious that what Bankerboy and Rodster have said they are monitoring. If we want the rest of the mesa they are promising we better behave nicely

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    taken yesterday at the end of tunnel 3.. sigh
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-image.jpg  


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    Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-image.jpg

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    The irony was not lost on me. Seeing Rangers driving their 4-wheel trucks through the Mesa to protect the wildlife and sensitive habitat from destructive 28 pound bikes. I especially like the new truck tracks which are creating vernal pools for the fairy shrimp.

  31. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post
    I found it odd as it has been quite a while that I have seen one vehicle and saw two on the same day. Pretty obvious that what Bankerboy and Rodster have said they are monitoring. If we want the rest of the mesa they are promising we better behave nicely
    Are we required the bring them coffee and donuts too?

    Hell we just brought them a new ranger station, they should stay they more often
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  32. #532
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    Both trucks appeared to be brand new also. Ran into one of the rangers as he was hiking the North Rim trail from the power lines where his truck was parked.

  33. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by socal_jack View Post
    Both trucks appeared to be brand new also. Ran into one of the rangers as he was hiking the North Rim trail from the power lines where his truck was parked.
    Did you ask him how they justify driving heavy 4x4 vehicles into "protected" areas in order to keep out the bikes and hikers?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Did you ask him how they justify driving heavy 4x4 vehicles into "protected" areas in order to keep out the bikes and hikers?
    Now come on Klurejr... asking a state and/or federal official to justify their actions with common sense is just plain asking too much

    It's perfectly acceptable in their minds to create vernal pools with their trucks (and SDGE), cut down sensitive habitat to close trails that were there before they were born, and allow developers to continue to build on sensitive habitat that you were to stay out of for years. And on top of all of that total BS, they will write you up if you don't obey (and forget their coffee & donuts)
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    Quote Originally Posted by socal_jack View Post
    Both trucks appeared to be brand new also. .
    Thank you for your tax contribution
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    Now come on Klurejr... asking a state and/or federal official to justify their actions with common sense is just plain asking too much

    It's perfectly acceptable in their minds to create vernal pools with their trucks (and SDGE), cut down sensitive habitat to close trails that were there before they were born, and allow developers to continue to build on sensitive habitat that you were to stay out of for years. And on top of all of that total BS, they will write you up if you don't obey (and forget their coffee & donuts)
    No harm in making it clear that what they are doing is worse for the environment than what they are "protecting". Not everyone is dense, maybe it will spark some thinking on their part to question the orders they are getting from the top.
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    Along that note, CEQA was originally supposed to be used to make sure CA govts complied with the environmental laws. Now they routinely exempt themselves, like when DFG put the fences in at Calvera several years ago.

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    You guys wear me out ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    You guys wear me out ;-)
    Rod- It's the thread that keeps giving...
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    You guys wear me out ;-)
    No one has to be happy about what is happening....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    No one has to be happy about what HAS happenED....
    Fixed it for you. It is a done deal.

    People keep arguing this topic like it can be changed. It was done 4 years ago.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

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    The argument is not whether things can be undone or not. The recent threads are more about the hypocrisy of the Rangers riding large trucks through the Mesa and doing other destructive things in the name of habitat preservation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Fixed it for you. It is a done deal.

    People keep arguing this topic like it can be changed. It was done 4 years ago.
    I was speaking in a more general manner, not just about PQ.

    And I do think trail users should be upset when they see the land managers driving heavy 4x4 trucks out in the area's they are "protecting" and essentially doing more damage than they are preventing. It is comical.
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    Specifically what destructive things are the rangers doing?

    Driving their trucks on the established dirt roads (when dry) that are open for hikers and bikers plus SDGE service vehicles doesn't qualify.

    Piling deadfall in T-3 doesn't qualify. In fact it does qualify as rehab as the layer of mulch will retain moisture and promote regrowth.

    The only place sensitive habitat is getting cut is on Black Mountain and your tax dollars are at work clearing corridors for the new trails we're building this winter (weather permitting - where's this El Nino?).

    Matt, Rich J, Ben and myself were out Sunday crawling on hands and knees through dense vegetation flagging corridor for the American Conservation Experience crew to clear. Matt and Rich were out there mid week last week doing same and Matt was up there again this evening getting more done.

    I'd say greater than 1/2 of the new stuff is cleared. Of the remaining stuff, 1/3 of that is flagged. Probably about 1 mile of stuff still needs flagging.

    If anyone wants to reenact the Blair Witch Project, this work is as close as it gets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    Specifically what destructive things are the rangers doing?

    Driving their trucks on the established dirt roads (when dry) that are open for hikers and bikers plus SDGE service vehicles doesn't qualify.

    Piling deadfall in T-3 doesn't qualify. In fact it does qualify as rehab as the layer of mulch will retain moisture and promote regrowth.

    The only place sensitive habitat is getting cut is on Black Mountain and your tax dollars are at work clearing corridors for the new trails we're building this winter (weather permitting - where's this El Nino?).

    Matt, Rich J, Ben and myself were out Sunday crawling on hands and knees through dense vegetation flagging corridor for the American Conservation Experience crew to clear. Matt and Rich were out there mid week last week doing same and Matt was up there again this evening getting more done.

    I'd say greater than 1/2 of the new stuff is cleared. Of the remaining stuff, 1/3 of that is flagged. Probably about 1 mile of stuff still needs flagging.

    If anyone wants to reenact the Blair Witch Project, this work is as close as it gets.
    It does not look like dead fall it looks clearly a felled tree in the forefront to me and the mulch looks more like tinder. and I disagree it is sensitive habitat. It is hardy and has the ability to bounce back quickly.

    And while much of it is in the past tense for you and Bankerboy it is fresh and hurts. We are in mourning and have not hit the acceptance phase just yet. I personally have no issues with the ranger out there in their trucks.

    I appreciate you help and advocacy but am still angry at the process which I recently became aware of.

    That being said I understand the finality of it when trees are felled to restrict access.

    I am ready to move on but still have a bad taste in my mouth. I think that many here are just lamenting and pissed and moving toward the acceptance phase. Defending it only riles us up a bit more

    Just saying


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    On behalf of Gina - Sr Ranger for PQ and DM:

    There was a post accusing us of falling trees to block trails, with a picture. The oak log installed to block the bottom of T3 was taken from PQ, it is a branch that fell off an oak about 3 or 4 years ago.

    Anyway, I want to set your minds at ease, the City Park Rangers do not cut new vegetation to rehab areas. We might import clean native cuttings from other locations, but we don't cut them from sensitive habitat.

    I very much appreciate the fact that people are mourning their trails. There are 5 stages of grief, right? Seems we are still in the very beginning stages of denial and anger. We just have to keep working to get through to the acceptance phase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    On behalf of Gina - Sr Ranger for PQ and DM:

    There was a post accusing us of falling trees to block trails, with a picture. The oak log installed to block the bottom of T3 was taken from PQ, it is a branch that fell off an oak about 3 or 4 years ago.

    Anyway, I want to set your minds at ease, the City Park Rangers do not cut new vegetation to rehab areas. We might import clean native cuttings from other locations, but we don't cut them from sensitive Hardy coastal sage brush and sturdy coastal Oak habitat.

    I very much appreciate the fact that people are mourning their trails. There are 5 stages of grief, right? Seems we are still in the very beginning stages of denial and anger. We just have to keep working to get through to the acceptance phase.
    Fixed that for ya Gina.... I hate that anyone uses the term "sensitive" to describe the rugged plants and animals that are native to this dry desert like environment near the sea. There is nothing sensitive about it. The native plants have adapted over thousands of years to the climate and conditions here, and the fact that they survive in a major drought region is testament to the fact that they are the opposite of sensitive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    On behalf of Gina - Sr Ranger for PQ and DM:
    Anyway, I want to set your minds at ease, the City Park Rangers do not cut new vegetation to rehab areas. We might import clean native cuttings from other locations, but we don't cut them from sensitive habitat.
    That's not entirely true. I have seen and have photos of brushed trails with fresh vegetation. Vegetation that was cut for the purpose of brushing trails, and had nothing to do with maintenance. This photo was taken at MTRP. Clippings were used to brush a trail. No BS. Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-cimg0065.jpg

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    Ah, MTRP brushing drama revived.

    That was back in the day of another rider and some misguided brushing attempts in Spring Canyon.

    Who Sanitized Three Barrels?

    and

    Mission trails hazard

    for some context.

    It was not rangers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Ah, MTRP brushing drama revived.

    That was back in the day of another rider and some misguided brushing attempts in Spring Canyon.

    Who Sanitized Three Barrels?

    and

    Mission trails hazard

    for some context.

    It was not rangers.

    Noticed the cut Chaparral shrubs about 3 weeks ago. I figured it's either A:that Stravahole that got Teote closed a little while back. Or,
    B: some misguided dude trying to make it safe for grandma to ride...

    Just hope that Ca FW don't get all pissed off and close this trail too.
    BS.

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    It's interesting reading through this thread and really just reading a ton of b*tching in all honesty. If I was to add my two cents, its get over it! It's happening, it was decided several years ago, no one likes this outcome and if you have been riding it for several years without incident, count yourself lucky.

    If you are one of the *sshats that's out there removing brush and destroying City property, keep this in mind, you are screwing us all over. This problem has seized up much of the work we are trying to get done with the City in several different areas. It has stopped all negotiations with CDFW for an east to west connector and further negotiations throughout the County in areas of their ownership. It has pulled resources from trail work and new trail projects in the City of San Diego. Further it has most likely caused irreprehensible damage to relationships with the rangers that manage these areas and our user group.

    For my part of b*tching I have lost valuable time on current projects I am working on, I have to spend hours on conference calls, communication with our entire team and San Diego to try and stop this situation from spiraling further out of control. There are plenty of areas around the County where there are trail opportunities, but instead of spending my time working for realignments and new trails that would unlock 10-20-30 miles of trail, I am stuck standing over this one place which is really 2-3 miles of trail we are talking about, good trail, but still 2-3 miles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BSSD View Post
    It's interesting reading through this thread and really just reading a ton of b*tching in all honesty. If I was to add my two cents, its get over it! It's happening, it was decided several years ago, no one likes this outcome and if you have been riding it for several years without incident, count yourself lucky.

    If you are one of the *sshats that's out there removing brush and destroying City property, keep this in mind, you are screwing us all over. This problem has seized up much of the work we are trying to get done with the City in several different areas. It has stopped all negotiations with CDFW for an east to west connector and further negotiations throughout the County in areas of their ownership. It has pulled resources from trail work and new trail projects in the City of San Diego. Further it has most likely caused irreprehensible damage to relationships with the rangers that manage these areas and our user group.

    For my part of b*tching I have lost valuable time on current projects I am working on, I have to spend hours on conference calls, communication with our entire team and San Diego to try and stop this situation from spiraling further out of control. There are plenty of areas around the County where there are trail opportunities, but instead of spending my time working for realignments and new trails that would unlock 10-20-30 miles of trail, I am stuck standing over this one place which is really 2-3 miles of trail we are talking about, good trail, but still 2-3 miles.
    If the actions in one small area seize up all progress anywhere with CDFW, then there is very poor management in place. This isn't Parris Island, all parties should not be punished for the actions of a few.

    I don't really ride there but the principal behind it, as a city of san diego tax payer for decades is ludicrous. If we deem this acceptable now, the vortex continues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocd View Post
    If the actions in one small area seize up all progress anywhere with CDFW, then there is very poor management in place. This isn't Parris Island, all parties should not be punished for the actions of a few.

    I don't really ride there but the principal behind it, as a city of San Diego tax payer for decades is ludicrous. If we deem this acceptable now, the vortex continues.
    Not sure on which side of the argument you fall, but yes I do find it unacceptable that the City is spending money on brushing a trail that could be going to new trail and trail work. I further find it crazy, that then it's citizens/tax payers are going and unbrushing that trail which then in turn they then spend more time and resources on to try and close. Yes that f*cked-vortex of wasting SD City money is unacceptable. And cue the the guy who says "well just don't mess with it and let us ride bro" and that takes me to CDFW.

    CDWF's goal is preserving habitat, if you intend to get anything from CDFW, you must approach it with making an argument of how you can help them protect habitat. You have no legs to stand on if you can't show an ability to manage the masses next door to their property in which you need access to. If your goal was to preserve habitat, how in this case would giving access to us in their vernal preserve next door work out for habitat? If anything it looks like the less access you give, the better chance you have of people destroying property and habitat.

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    I was up there yesterday, and all signs, and barriers were in place. No signs of traffic on Tunnel 3, although, it seemed pretty busy up there for a weekday morning.

    More trails throughout San Diego will be needed to lower human presence here. With all the building going on, more and more people will find their way up to the mesa. I almost always run into a noob asking for directions up there now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocd View Post
    If the actions in one small area seize up all progress anywhere with CDFW, then there is very poor management in place. This isn't Parris Island, all parties should not be punished for the actions of a few.

    I don't really ride there but the principal behind it, as a city of san diego tax payer for decades is ludicrous. If we deem this acceptable now, the vortex continues.
    Observation from DMM today:

    Many riders asking "Is it OK to use this trail?" - on trails clearly (to me) signed as legit trails. I took that as a good sign that most people do want to stay legal.

    We're working on trail alignment thru a private parcel that will add a loop to the DMM network. Owner will permit easement but has liability concerns with our preferred route. There are 3 alternatives and we need us, the owner, the adjoining owner, and the city to agree on one that works for all. Choosing the best of the three will no more difficult than getting a unanimous opinion of whether 26, 27.5, or 29 is the best wheel size.

    Piece of cake!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    Observation from DMM today:

    Many riders asking "Is it OK to use this trail?" - on trails clearly (to me) signed as legit trails. I took that as a good sign that most people do want to stay legal.

    We're working on trail alignment thru a private parcel that will add a loop to the DMM network. Owner will permit easement but has liability concerns with our preferred route. There are 3 alternatives and we need us, the owner, the adjoining owner, and the city to agree on one that works for all. Choosing the best of the three will no more difficult than getting a unanimous opinion of whether 26, 27.5, or 29 is the best wheel size.

    Piece of cake!
    On a related note...today, a reputable service rep at Performance BS (Oceanside) told me (he thinks) 27.5 and 29ers are slowly on the way out and 26ers will be back in force within next 10 years...who knew...and, by that time, all of DMM will be housing tracks or protected vernal pool areas. So, which trail is legal or not will no longer matter...you heard it here first / mark my words!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    Observation from DMM today:

    Many riders asking "Is it OK to use this trail?" - on trails clearly (to me) signed as legit trails. I took that as a good sign that most people do want to stay legal.

    We're working on trail alignment thru a private parcel that will add a loop to the DMM network. Owner will permit easement but has liability concerns with our preferred route. There are 3 alternatives and we need us, the owner, the adjoining owner, and the city to agree on one that works for all. Choosing the best of the three will no more difficult than getting a unanimous opinion of whether 26, 27.5, or 29 is the best wheel size.

    Piece of cake!
    I wonder if the result of the constant obstruction of the illegal trails is resulting in this trail alignment. More than likely not. Keep in mind, the skateboarders didnt sit back and ride where they were allowed, they pushed forward regardless. Now there is a skate park within 10 mile radiuses across the county, liability be damned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcemkr View Post
    I wonder if the result of the constant obstruction of the illegal trails is resulting in this trail alignment. More than likely not. Keep in mind, the skateboarders didnt sit back and ride where they were allowed, they pushed forward regardless. Now there is a skate park within 10 mile radiuses across the county, liability be damned.
    Someone probably knows the answer better than I do, but I think there is a state law that addresses liability issues at skate parks, defining it as an inherently dangerous activity that you can't sue for. We need a similar law for bikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D_Man View Post
    Someone probably knows the answer better than I do, but I think there is a state law that addresses liability issues at skate parks, defining it as an inherently dangerous activity that you can't sue for. We need a similar law for bikes.
    The law applies to bikes as well. Municipalities are sue proof for certain specific hazardous recreational activities. Unlike a city government, private individuals are not exempted via the same statute.

    Illegal trails are closed and brushed strictly for habitat restoration (as the open space parks exist to preserve the ecology).

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    Wouldn't it be cool if there was some sort of gofundme campaign that would raise money for SD mtb'ers to just buy all of this land? One would think we would do a better job at protecting habitat than all of the eventual development. Just dreaming I suppose.


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    Quote Originally Posted by SDMTB'er View Post
    Wouldn't it be cool if there was some sort of gofundme campaign that would raise money for SD mtb'ers to just buy all of this land? One would think we would do a better job at protecting habitat than all of the eventual development. Just dreaming I suppose.


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    soon as i win the lottery, i'm buying the whole $hit and i'm keeping everyone out..

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    Illegal trails are closed and brushed strictly for habitat restoration (as the open space parks exist to preserve the ecology).
    toot toot, out of the way for habitat restoration!
    While it's all of 200 yards out of the valley, that's prime san diego ambrosia and barrel cactus land.
    This same land, is that which was said to "absolutely not be available for new trails as it is "MSCP, MHPA, OMG, WTF, BBQ" land.

    Trails? no
    Bulldozers and excavators running to make space for trash... yes.

    City /County government... all rules on preservation of habitat are set in stone... unless there's money to be made or land to be had.

    Nothing says "we can bend the rules a bit" like mitigation land which will forever be subject to the wafting small of trash and the noise of a dump running 2/47.

    The animals, they love that noise, especially at night.


    Sorry to be a pessimist but as someone who is concerned with the environment as well as open and green spaces, it's ludicrous to believe what the city is feeding people.


    And the companies advising... it's a simple game. "Stretch this out to the end of the contract, they're committed, they cannot go elsewhere, they will extend the contract while we continue to play their game".

    Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-dump.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocd View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Where do the tunnels fall on the sensitivity scale for the city?

    If you believe any of the BS fed by the city, with MSCP, MHPA, etc. You need to sit down and read the following document and then ask yourself why exactly you are defending the city with such "efforts"

    http://www.sandiego.gov/planning-com...20823part1.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocd View Post
    Where do the tunnels fall on the sensitivity scale for the city?

    If you believe any of the BS fed by the city, with MSCP, MHPA, etc. You need to sit down and read the following document and then ask yourself why exactly you are defending the city with such "efforts"

    http://www.sandiego.gov/planning-com...20823part1.pdf
    That is a long document with plenty of legal jargon, care to sum-up the highlights for us?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    That is a long document with plenty of legal jargon, care to sum-up the highlights for us?
    This type of statement is part of the problem. Rather then learn about the process yourself, you will accept a jaded and slanted review. It is a crazy and complicated process but with minimal effort the public would be so much better informed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    That is a long document with plenty of legal jargon, care to sum-up the highlights for us?
    In a nut shell: the plan calls for the conversion of 21 acres previously designated as Open Space to waste disposal to the increase the life of the Landfill. However, this acreage would be rehabilited with the closure of the Landfill in 2042.

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    Hmmmm.... How many sockpuppets could a puppet sock if a sockpuppet could sock puppets?

    Welcome to the forums, again
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    I saw that last week. It looks pretty bad. It's not only the top, but they are coming down into the sides of the hill with those dozers.

    Meanwhile the Coastal Commission will be approving the burial of nuclear waste yards from the the ocean. They must be too busy with that to approve a trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocd View Post
    toot toot, out of the way for habitat restoration!
    While it's all of 200 yards out of the valley, that's prime san diego ambrosia and barrel cactus land.
    This same land, is that which was said to "absolutely not be available for new trails as it is "MSCP, MHPA, OMG, WTF, BBQ" land.

    Trails? no
    Bulldozers and excavators running to make space for trash... yes.

    City /County government... all rules on preservation of habitat are set in stone... unless there's money to be made or land to be had.

    Nothing says "we can bend the rules a bit" like mitigation land which will forever be subject to the wafting small of trash and the noise of a dump running 2/47.

    The animals, they love that noise, especially at night.


    Sorry to be a pessimist but as someone who is concerned with the environment as well as open and green spaces, it's ludicrous to believe what the city is feeding people.


    And the companies advising... it's a simple game. "Stretch this out to the end of the contract, they're committed, they cannot go elsewhere, they will extend the contract while we continue to play their game".

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	dump.jpg 
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    The owner of the dump, has continually purchased land in and around the dump as a way to expand the dump. This is land that has been in private hands that they have used for mitigation for their expansion. I met the Senior Environmentalist a couple weeks ago from the City that oversees the dumps. She did give a somewhat grim outlook of when the dump would be completed. Keep in mind as well the City will have the first opportunity to purchase that land once its completed and the dump owners will have to continue to monitor the dump and rehab the land for basically eternity. The City has a lot of trail on that land as part of the Mission Trails Master Plan update, that is still on the map.

    The biologist also mentioned we could meet with the dump owners who could possibly be open to trail alignments prior to transfer of ownership. As I am working on too many projects I don't have the bandwidth to start another project, but would be happy to turn it over to someone who was interested.

    Or who cares about the details and lets continue to troll MTBR....

  71. #571
    ocd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    That is a long document with plenty of legal jargon, care to sum-up the highlights for us?
    Yes, previously slated "sensitive" land is being converted to a landfill. This is deems as "less sensitive" than other land around it and is OK because there is mitigation land.

    On this land would include but not be limited to:
    Horny Toads
    San Diego Ambrosia
    Barrel Cactus
    and... wait for it... here it comes... drumroll....
    Previously documented MSCP land.

    The point being, protected land is off limits... unless you have something the city wants, like very deep pockets to purchase mitigation land... the same land the city once told owners they would be able to develop, only to surround them with open space and then do everything in their power to stop.

    I don't understand most of the legal jargon but I've been to enough meetings and heard enough about MSCP, MHPA, protected plants and animals to know that in the end, it's all complete BS. If you have enough money, you can buy anything.

    And don't get me started on the trails built in Tierrasanta by the hikers, which the open space czar himself admitted to be illegal but were "trying to be incorporated" into a trails plan (or something similar).

    And finally. How does a master plan update approach it's 6t.. or is it 7th year "in the works" with multiple contractors being on the payroll and the initial timeline passed?
    Because residents accept it as "part of the problem"

    I've paid property taxes in the city for 18 years, in the county for 21 years. It's not acceptable. There's a handful of people running things the way they see fit. Many of which have very little background in environmental science and many of which seem to be on board to "ride this one out until retirement". The answer is always "we cannot do that" until you want to build a freaking landfill... then apparently, you can.

  72. #572
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    Quick note of some good news. Yesterday, December 10, the Coastal Commission voted to concur with the proposed trail alignments including the west rim trail and the switchbacks. I don't know the time frame just yet but more trail finally coming back on line. Next piece to work through is the private property at the bottom of the switchbacks. As soon as I get more, I will post it up.

    Item # 26A in the list. Ca. Coastal Commission
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  73. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocd View Post
    And don't get me started on the trails built in Tierrasanta by the hikers, which the open space czar himself admitted to be illegal but were "trying to be incorporated" into a trails plan (or something similar).
    The Tierrasanta trails you are referring are fun, technical trails. Illegal or not, I am grateful to the builders. Tierrasanta is criss-crosssed by canyons that should in my opinion have trails in them. BTW, we dubbed the trail that starts at roadrunner park the Poop trail due to all the dog droppings which add to the technical nature of the trail as you try to miss them.
    Mountain bikers, hikers and horseback riders are not the enemy. Bulldozers are the enemy.

  74. #574
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    I spoke with Sr Ranger Gina Washington this morning and it is official. The West Rim trail and the Switch Back trail are now open. Those were the last two. They have taken down any remaining barriers and installed some signage to help. Problem is the bottom of the Switch Back trail ends at private land. They are still working on an easement but it has not been agreed upon as of today. It will take time. Please ride accordingly.

    I know there are always a lot of questions but if there is a sign or fence (including go-arounds) it is closed. East Rim, Rattle Snake, Tunnel 3(rocking horse) and Tunnel 5 are not part of the plan. If you are riding these, please stop. They are not open and you can be ticketed.
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    Are there maps of the West Rim trail and the Switch Back trail? I'd like to explore but want to stay in compliance. I've ridden nothing here except up and down T4. I ride back up T4 because I don't know any other links to more fun sections.

  76. #576
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    Official maps are forthcoming. I am trying to get a good official copy and will post is asap
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  77. #577
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    Quote Originally Posted by BSSD View Post
    The biologist also mentioned we could meet with the dump owners who could possibly be open to trail alignments prior to transfer of ownership. As I am working on too many projects I don't have the bandwidth to start another project, but would be happy to turn it over to someone who was interested.

    Or who cares about the details and lets continue to troll MTBR....
    Yes, it's clearly trolling MTBR. Head out to mid 3B and have a look to see what is becoming, all that pristine and protected habitat. The snow fence, the excavators, the 12+ earth movers scraping the land.

    Here's how to make any project successful in the area...
    Get a bunch of funding.
    Offer to purchase mitigation land.
    Purchase mitigation land and then get your special interests approved.

    Overall.. not "trolling" about trails, you're talking about previously designated protected habitat which is now becoming landfill land. No need to repeat that. Protected habitat... now landfill... but it's cool, there's mitigation land.

    Not even about trails... about the fact that previously designated protected habitat has now become a trash dump. Uhhhhhhhhhmmmmmm, yeahhhhhhhhhh

  78. #578
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    I thought this thread was on Del Mar Mesa? Why do you keep bringing up East Elliott?

    Its great that the Rim and Switchbacks Trails are open.

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    FYI: Speaking of Del Mar Mesa . . .

    There is a NEW singletrack to be built soon on non-MHPA land.

    that's the positive

    On the other hand, plans were shown at the December Rancho PQ Planning Board meeting for a 3 office tower (permitted to 11 stories) plus parking structure complex to be built on the Catholic Diocese property - bordered on three sides by DMM Preserve but zoned non-MHPA. The grading plan KILLS the intended reroute of tunnel 1 egress to Camino Del Sur.

    The land is currently zoned for a church/Sunday school or garden center. The developer will need zoning to change to industrial. Without public dissention that is a virtual slam dunk as the developer has hired a lobbyist and public records show said lobbyist has been in contact with Council member Chris Cate and the mayor.

    There is a long established local coalition of environmentalists that would prefer to see this parcel reclassified as MHPA and be used as a mitigation parcel/added to DMM Preserve.

    The land value is such however that it will NOT become MHPA. It WILL be developed. Whoever develops this parcel will need community support. Certainly from a bike advocacy position, having a quality reroute of Tunnel 1 and connection to the Darkwood Canyon trail is a MUST HAVE.

    There was no speaker present representing the project in December. The January meeting is supposed to have someone. The detailed presentation would be during the land-use committee meeting which precludes public comment. Potentially there could be an abridged presentation during the greater planning board meeting where public comment is allowed.

  80. #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    FYI: Speaking of Del Mar Mesa . . .

    There is a NEW singletrack to be built soon on non-MHPA land.

    that's the positive

    On the other hand, plans were shown at the December Rancho PQ Planning Board meeting for a 3 office tower (permitted to 11 stories) plus parking structure complex to be built on the Catholic Diocese property - bordered on three sides by DMM Preserve but zoned non-MHPA. The grading plan KILLS the intended reroute of tunnel 1 egress to Camino Del Sur.

    The land is currently zoned for a church/Sunday school or garden center. The developer will need zoning to change to industrial. Without public dissention that is a virtual slam dunk as the developer has hired a lobbyist and public records show said lobbyist has been in contact with Council member Chris Cate and the mayor.

    There is a long established local coalition of environmentalists that would prefer to see this parcel reclassified as MHPA and be used as a mitigation parcel/added to DMM Preserve.

    The land value is such however that it will NOT become MHPA. It WILL be developed. Whoever develops this parcel will need community support. Certainly from a bike advocacy position, having a quality reroute of Tunnel 1 and connection to the Darkwood Canyon trail is a MUST HAVE.

    There was no speaker present representing the project in December. The January meeting is supposed to have someone. The detailed presentation would be during the land-use committee meeting which precludes public comment. Potentially there could be an abridged presentation during the greater planning board meeting where public comment is allowed.
    Good info to know Rod. Thanks for posting it up
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  81. #581
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    Hi Rod,

    Would adding a wide tunnel for the watershed under the Camino del Sur extension of Rhodes Crossing also be another option for Tunnel 1 access? If the tunnel was wide enough, it could also have a single-track next to the water channel.

    I've found that if you beg people for one thing, you never get it. It's too easy for them to just say no. But if you give them a choice between multiple things, your odds of getting one of them is better. Saying no to multiple options just makes people think about it more rather than the automatic "no". Would it help to add that as another possible access method to get to the east end of tunnel 1?

  82. #582
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    It was requested but Keith would not have it since it would be extra cost. I would love to see access to that side but there is no trail there now and it would still have to climb up to to the road level. To make it worse, the DG "path" he is putting in will be on the west side of the road to a point and cross over to the east side about half way over to Darkwood canyon. If we got the trail to the east side at the fill point, we would have to traverse back across the street to pick up the "path"
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  83. #583
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    Doesn't there need to be a "game tunnel" at that point? The feds let that one fly by?

    Isn't there a small creek there too?
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

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  84. #584
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    The east end of tunnel one only goes into a small finger Canyon is not considered a wildlife corridor beyond that point. That is why there is no tunnel other than a water passage necessary at that point.

    Further down the road when it turns into Park Village heading towards the school, the original plan called for a four lane road with wildlife under crossings. However the plants have been scaled back due to minimal traffic, and the road will only be two lanes. As a result, there is no need for wildlife under crossing by plan and design.
    Last edited by bankerboy; 12-22-2015 at 10:34 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Official maps are forthcoming. I am trying to get a good official copy and will post is asap
    Thanks. That would be v useful - its hard to currently think of good (legal) loop trails without climbing up that damm fireroad.

    What trail was rattlesnake? Not that we can ride it now, but I'd never heard the name (although likely ridden it at some point)

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    I have it as a PDF and will post it up tonight. It is not much more that the current one posted at the trail heads. It just includes the West Mesa trail and the Switchback trail. Nothing yet about the future easements through the private land to the north.
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