Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 401 to 500 of 586
  1. #401
    Adventure Mapper
    Reputation: forgiven_nick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    537
    Thanks Matt. I really appreciate all that you and Rod and the others like you are doing for our community.

  2. #402
    BM and PQ Trail Rep
    Reputation: bankerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,620


    Passed unanimously. It is off to the city council on August 4. Stay out for now. Trails still not open yet.

    Ranger Washington posted...

    As requested by several peoples, attached is a map of the proposed trail plan for Del Mar Mesa Preserve.* Notice that these are Future Trails, they are not open yet.*

    *

    The only open trail in Del Mar Mesa Preserve at this time is still the Fire Road.

    *

    Gina Washington

    Senior Park Ranger

    City of San Diego

    Park & Recreation Department

    202 C. Street Fifth Floor MS 5D

    San Diego, CA 92101

    858.538.8066 PH
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  3. #403
    Titanium Club
    Reputation: Ferdball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    229
    Great news. Thanks bb.

  4. #404
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    287
    I like the part of the map that says "wildlife corridor." lol Thats so sweet of our Gov't to recognize and preserve a corridor for our wildlife to roam. What a joke. Preserves, Eco sensitive areas, wildlife corridors have all been bulldozed in the name of big money. So write that letter and don't forget, your elected and trusted city council members like their $100 bills crisp and in $10,000 bundles.

  5. #405
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    679
    so basically all of the fun stuff is going away: tunnel 3, tunnel 2, tunnel 5, sidewinder, tunnel 1 is an "under construction" dead end. the few remaining trails will have 3x the traffic. sounds awesome.

  6. #406
    IPA tester
    Reputation: Dirtrider127's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    841
    It might be a good idea to have one-way trails since user volume will increase and collisions in the tunnel 4 will happen at some time.
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

    -Urban Yeti
    Dirttreaders.com

  7. #407
    Beer Please! SuperModerator
    Reputation: Klurejr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    5,080
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mama View Post
    so basically all of the fun stuff is going away: tunnel 3, tunnel 2, tunnel 5, sidewinder, tunnel 1 is an "under construction" dead end. the few remaining trails will have 3x the traffic. sounds awesome.
    It is not going anywhere. It just will not be on the official trail plan.
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

    Know these before you post:
    MTBR Posting Rules
    e-bike forum rules

  8. #408
    ridin' Mary
    Reputation: OhNooo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    351
    It's hard to have 1-way trails when Tunnel 1 is a dead end into a construction site. To ride it legally, you will have to ride it both out and back.

  9. #409
    IPA tester
    Reputation: Dirtrider127's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    841
    Having been in one and seen two, any tunnel open with the amount of riders that might be riding there will have "conflicts" with bikes and other modes of enjoyment out there (like T4)
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

    -Urban Yeti
    Dirttreaders.com

  10. #410
    IPA tester
    Reputation: Dirtrider127's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    841
    Quote Originally Posted by OhNooo View Post
    It's hard to have 1-way trails when Tunnel 1 is a dead end into a construction site. To ride it legally, you will have to ride it both out and back.
    I understand and you make a good point. I agree with the need to have a loop out there but you know where that thought went..
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

    -Urban Yeti
    Dirttreaders.com

  11. #411
    ridin' Mary
    Reputation: OhNooo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    351
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    I understand and you make a good point. I agree with the need to have a loop out there but you know where that thought went..
    Without a loop, there will be conflicts on these dead-end tight low-visibility trails.
    When there are conflicts, there will be collisions.
    When there are collisions, there will be injuries.
    When there are injuries, there will be questions by the trail users to the land managers.
    When the land managers are questioned, they always go straight to "EVERYONE OUT OF THE POOL".

    Ride 'em while they are open. I doubt this trails plan will last long term. It was planned to fail from the start without a loop.

  12. #412
    IPA tester
    Reputation: Dirtrider127's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    841
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

    -Urban Yeti
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

    -Urban Yeti
    Dirttreaders.com

  13. #413
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by OhNooo View Post
    Without a loop, there will be conflicts on these dead-end tight low-visibility trails.
    When there are conflicts, there will be collisions.
    When there are collisions, there will be injuries.
    When there are injuries, there will be questions by the trail users to the land managers.
    + When you close 2/3 of the trails, the remaining third get 3x the usage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

    -Urban Yeti
    Amen

  14. #414
    One ring to mash them all
    Reputation: the one ring's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    400
    Quote Originally Posted by OhNooo View Post
    Without a loop, there will be conflicts on these dead-end tight low-visibility trails.
    When there are conflicts, there will be collisions.
    When there are collisions, there will be injuries.
    When there are injuries, there will be questions by the trail users to the land managers.
    When the land managers are questioned, they always go straight to "EVERYONE OUT OF THE POOL".

    Ride 'em while they are open. I doubt this trails plan will last long term. It was planned to fail from the start without a loop.
    Awesome that "loop" and "pool" are backronyms.

    And while we're at it, how fitting:


  15. #415
    ridin' Mary
    Reputation: OhNooo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    351
    Quote Originally Posted by stuppie View Post
    + When you close 2/3 of the trails, the remaining third get 3x the usage.
    Even worse than that. There are a bunch of people like myself who have heeded the trail closures and have stayed out of tunnels for the last 8 years. I'm really looking forward to being able to ride there again. So my traffic and other law-abiding citizens like me (purely said in jest!) will be added to this region, on 1/3 of the trails.

    Can you imagine 2 gigantic conga lines of bikes going in opposite directions on Tunnel 1?

  16. #416
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1
    Riding this evening and saw a SDPD SUV had some riders "pulled over" just past the gate into tunnels. Ran into the riders a few minutes later and asked what was what. They told me the cops said they were requested to patrol there by the rangers because of the non-compliance of bikers when dealing with rangers ie not stopping for them, riding away, not giving information, etc.

  17. #417
    BM and PQ Trail Rep
    Reputation: bankerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,620
    Trails plan is supposed to go before the city council on Tuesday August 4 during the 2:00 pm session. After that, only the Mayor's signature remains.

    As far as the police activity, it is not surprising given the continued sense of user entitlement. There are very clear closures. Still, 4 and 5 inch railing is being torn out regularly at closed trails. Brush is still being cut to create go arounds in other areas. I have zero empathy for a user ticketed out there.

    Until this process is complete, the only trail open is the SDG&E fire road. There are signs and other markings going in as I write this to prep for final approval. Do not mistake these as open trail. If you get caught, you will be paying a trespassing fine.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  18. #418
    Well Biked
    Reputation: scepticshock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    1,698
    So after the plan is signed, does that mean that gate will then be open, or at least open in the sense of a legal entrance ?

  19. #419
    BM and PQ Trail Rep
    Reputation: bankerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,620
    Don't know the dates yet. There is no reason the city council won't approve it, in theory. Several of them sat on the environmental committee that approved the plan as is. After the city council approves it, the plan still has to be ratified by the Mayor. Should be "quick" by city standards. I would guess mid to late September that we will see access legally allowed to the approved trails from the map posted above.

    Just a reminder/warning. When all this process started back in 2008 these trails would only take a few months to one year to be approved.....

    I just want this thread to end.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  20. #420
    BM and PQ Trail Rep
    Reputation: bankerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,620
    PASSED UNANIMOUSLY

    For all of the years to even get to this point it was rather anticlimactic but in less than 15 minutes, it was discussed, voted on, and passed.

    Next step is on to the Mayor's office for ratification/sign off. I will talk to the rangers and get a feel for how much more time is needed before we gain legal access.

    So close.....
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  21. #421
    mtbr member
    Reputation: rondre3000's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    725
    Thank you!

  22. #422
    Beer Please! SuperModerator
    Reputation: Klurejr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    5,080
    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    PASSED UNANIMOUSLY

    For all of the years to even get to this point it was rather anticlimactic but in less than 15 minutes, it was discussed, voted on, and passed.

    Next step is on to the Mayor's office for ratification/sign off. I will talk to the rangers and get a feel for how much more time is needed before we gain legal access.

    So close.....
    Great News! Thanks for the updates!
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

    Know these before you post:
    MTBR Posting Rules
    e-bike forum rules

  23. #423
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mrmattjohnson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    861
    super stoked on this

  24. #424
    BM and PQ Trail Rep
    Reputation: bankerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,620
    Many of you may have already seen the latest fence to go up on the rim trail. We were never told but it is part of the Coastal Commission's responsibility (red and grey) and they have yet to approve their portion of the trails plan. I will ask that you read the below email. The silver lining (not that you have ever heard that before) is they are going to approach the land owner of Bakersfield and ask for a trail easement. I wish I had better news....

    On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 8:41 AM, Zirkle, Chris <CZirkle@sandiego.gov> wrote:
    Gentlemen, would you please get the word out on two issues regarding the recently adopted NRMP, particularly Switchbacks and the Rim Trail on Del Mar Mesa?

    1. While the City Council approved the plan, including the opening of the trails, the Council’s decision must be ratified via the Mayors’ signature on the Council resolution. This is expected to happen any day but until then we cannot open any of the trails.

    2. As you know, the adopted trails plan depicts the ultimate trail configuration planned for the area. It is not a “trails map”. Two things stand in the way of opening all trails as shown in the map below (which is ripe for distribution).

    a. As Rod noted, the Council action directed the opening of all trails which do not also require Coastal Commission action to open. The Rim and Switchback trails are subject to Coastal Commission approval prior to opening and we will solicit Coastal Commission approval ASAP. In the interim, Rangers erected a barrier very close to the Coastal Zone boundary, the line of Coastal Commission jurisdiction. Unfortunately, I’ve heard that barrier was immediately destroyed and I’ve heard that an explanatory notice which was put up on the barrier has been torn down.

    b. Also as shown below, the “Deer Creek” trail is for now and out and back trail as the area beyond to the southeast is privately owned. Similarly, the proposed trail heading west from the intersection of the Fire Road and the Deer Canyon Trail is privately owned. Use of these trails at this point in time would constitute trespassing. We have begun to communicate with one of the property owners regarding acquisition of a trail easement in the near term but, as always, bad behavior (trespassing and vandalism) adversely affects the desired access.

    Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-dmm2.jpg

    Thanks, Chris
    cid:image001.png@01D0D99E.21EBB520
    Chris Zirkle, Deputy Director
    City of San Diego
    Park and Recreation Department
    Open Space Division
    202 "C" Street, MS 5D
    San Diego, CA 92101
    p (619) 685-1323
    f (619) 685-1362
    "Protect lives, property , and the environment through timely and effective response in all communities"
    (timely and effective response )
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-dmm.jpg  

    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  25. #425
    ocd
    ocd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    579
    No disrespect but this is freaking hilarious.

    Trails (which never existed, because they were illegal) have been closed for 7... maybe 8 years and now have gone all the way up the chain of command to be approved and now... another road block.

    San Diego open space, park managers and other city officials... bad news, Chattanooga just punched you in the nuts again. You have the weather, you have the beaches and once you get east of the 5, *sad trombone* . That being said, I'm proud to be a tax payer that continues to keep the "no" machine in business ... But really, maybe some professional development is in order for these folks. Stop being don't-ers and start being do-ers, there's some good old boys down in Tennessee who might be able to teach you a thing or two.

    Weekend Plan: Chattanooga | Outside Online


    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Many of you may have already seen the latest fence to go up on the rim trail. We were never told but it is part of the Coastal Commission's responsibility (red and grey) and they have yet to approve their portion of the trails plan. I will ask that you read the below email. The silver lining (not that you have ever heard that before) is they are going to approach the land owner of Bakersfield and ask for a trail easement. I wish I had better news....

    On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 8:41 AM, Zirkle, Chris <CZirkle@sandiego.gov> wrote:
    Gentlemen, would you please get the word out on two issues regarding the recently adopted NRMP, particularly Switchbacks and the Rim Trail on Del Mar Mesa?

    1. While the City Council approved the plan, including the opening of the trails, the Council’s decision must be ratified via the Mayors’ signature on the Council resolution. This is expected to happen any day but until then we cannot open any of the trails.

    2. As you know, the adopted trails plan depicts the ultimate trail configuration planned for the area. It is not a “trails map”. Two things stand in the way of opening all trails as shown in the map below (which is ripe for distribution).

    a. As Rod noted, the Council action directed the opening of all trails which do not also require Coastal Commission action to open. The Rim and Switchback trails are subject to Coastal Commission approval prior to opening and we will solicit Coastal Commission approval ASAP. In the interim, Rangers erected a barrier very close to the Coastal Zone boundary, the line of Coastal Commission jurisdiction. Unfortunately, I’ve heard that barrier was immediately destroyed and I’ve heard that an explanatory notice which was put up on the barrier has been torn down.

    b. Also as shown below, the “Deer Creek” trail is for now and out and back trail as the area beyond to the southeast is privately owned. Similarly, the proposed trail heading west from the intersection of the Fire Road and the Deer Canyon Trail is privately owned. Use of these trails at this point in time would constitute trespassing. We have begun to communicate with one of the property owners regarding acquisition of a trail easement in the near term but, as always, bad behavior (trespassing and vandalism) adversely affects the desired access.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	dmm2.jpg 
Views:	125 
Size:	282.8 KB 
ID:	1009626

    Thanks, Chris
    cid:image001.png@01D0D99E.21EBB520
    Chris Zirkle, Deputy Director
    City of San Diego
    Park and Recreation Department
    Open Space Division
    202 "C" Street, MS 5D
    San Diego, CA 92101
    p (619) 685-1323
    f (619) 685-1362
    "Protect lives, property , and the environment through timely and effective response in all communities"
    (timely and effective response )

  26. #426
    Well Biked
    Reputation: scepticshock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    1,698
    Seriously. Another bureaucracy to appease? And why throw up barriers now at this stage in the game?

    Torn down? Who would have seen that coming?

  27. #427
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    679
    when will the name be officially changed to Tunnel?
    Last edited by Joe Mama; 08-20-2015 at 04:00 PM.

  28. #428
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    107
    The Coastal Commission zone keeps moving further and further East. It will be at the Arizona border before long.

  29. #429
    Beer Please! SuperModerator
    Reputation: Klurejr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    5,080
    I have yet to hear one good thing about the Coastal Commission. One of my clients owns a business on Garnet in Pacific Beach and they have to appease the coastal commission to make the front patio a bit larger.... was a huge hassle and got shot down in the end.
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

    Know these before you post:
    MTBR Posting Rules
    e-bike forum rules

  30. #430
    One ring to mash them all
    Reputation: the one ring's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    400
    Quote Originally Posted by leadmoto View Post
    The Coastal Commission zone keeps moving further and further East. It will be at the Arizona border before long.
    Well, so be it. When the big one hits, then the CC zone will fall into the ocean -- right along with this entire stupid ****ing state.

  31. #431
    mtbr member
    Reputation: EBasil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,092

    No more Tickets

    It was a conference call from Ranger Rick Thompson and Open Space Director Chris Zirkle, in 2008, that gave me first notice of the City's plan to close down the Del Mar Mesa. We were already in the process of reviewing trails, we'd had public meetings. The trails community had come together, acting as stewards of our open space with days organized to clean refuse from migrant camps (that we would later learn had been totally fabricated or imagined) and in outrage over vandalism of the trail system. We felt like we had a voice and a righteous one.

    "A temporary closure, perhaps for six months" sounded to me like a sucker's bet. I protested. I voiced my concerns. I begged. I opined that the closure would last far more than six months. This thread and others like it, chronicle the debacle which followed.

    However, tomorrow, August 22, 2015, the Del Mar Mesa Trail System is officially open. 80 months later, the trails officially open. Here's the announcement, just delivered by Chris Zirkle after a phone call:

    "Please be advised that the trails approved by the City Council on Carmel Mountain and Del Mar Mesa will be open for use tomorrow. Maps will be posted at kiosks.

    On the Del Mar Mesa map, as shown below, trails opened by the Council action are shown in black and white. Trails shown in black and red are NOT open due to private property and/or the need for Coastal Commission approval. Maps will be updated once further clearances are obtained.

    For Carmel Mountain, all trails appear the same on the map and all are open.

    The Council action also included biological habitat restoration on a number of areas previously used for recreational activities. Ranger staff have installed brush, signs, and fences at the access points to these locations. Please respect these access controls along with the ones installed at the Coastal Zone boundary and report any inappropriate behavior to Park Ranger staff."



    Get out there and ride!

  32. #432
    BM and PQ Trail Rep
    Reputation: bankerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,620
    Map

    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  33. #433
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    1,744
    Sounds like there is a lot of confusion still on where we can and can't ride legally. Are there any good/updated sites where I can download a legal routes (gpx) into my Garmin and just follow that to ensure I'm following the new rules? I'm a beginner so I don't know what I've missed but would like to try every route possible and check them off one by one.
    Thx.

  34. #434
    mtbr member
    Reputation: EBasil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,092
    Trust me: there's plenty of signage. Just look at the posted map here, on the kiosks out there and at the trail signs.

  35. #435
    BM and PQ Trail Rep
    Reputation: bankerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,620
    Gina and Melanie went in yesterday with a bunch of trail and directional signage to help with the "lost" feeling. there will now be 20 x 6 brown wooden signs with white lettering pointing your way and naming the trails.

    The map above is correct and it is the same map posted at the on the trail at the entrance to the Del Mar Mesa. Where you can and cannot be is very clearly marked.

    As of now, there is no official GPS routes but you most likely will not need them.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  36. #436
    Adventure Mapper
    Reputation: forgiven_nick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    537
    I rode there yesterday at 6-7pm and although the signage seemed very good, the fence at the bottom of tunnel 3 had the two main split rail crossbars missing, making it confusing as to if it was open or not. Thank you Matt, Rod, and everyone else involved for working with one another to find a way forward that now allows us to freely and legally ride these amazingly unique trails.
    I make maps and seek out adventure using a Salsa El Mariachi with a 29+ front end. Read more here:

    RideAlongside

  37. #437
    BM and PQ Trail Rep
    Reputation: bankerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,620
    Unfortunately there is still an element that feel the rules are not for them and that the damage they do is justified.

    If there is a fence and it is torn down, that area is still closed. Tunnels 2,3, and 5 are forever off limits. Enjoy what memories you have but they were excluded from the trails plan to get what few we could get.

    The other closure, part of the rim trial on the west side of the fire road out towards is closed for now until the Coastal Commission votes. I will post more on that as it develops. Not sure on the exact date but I put it here once I know more.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  38. #438
    Titanium Club
    Reputation: Ferdball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    229
    Quote Originally Posted by EBasil View Post
    ...The trails community had come together, acting as stewards of our open space with days organized to clean refuse from migrant camps (that we would later learn had been totally fabricated or imagined) and in outrage over vandalism of the trail system...
    Erik, can you explain this please? Who fabricated what?

  39. #439
    Adventure Mapper
    Reputation: forgiven_nick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    537
    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Unfortunately there is still an element that feel the rules are not for them and that the damage they do is justified.

    If there is a fence and it is torn down, that area is still closed. Tunnels 2,3, and 5 are forever off limits. Enjoy what memories you have but they were excluded from the trails plan to get what few we could get.

    The other closure, part of the rim trial on the west side of the fire road out towards is closed for now until the Coastal Commission votes. I will post more on that as it develops. Not sure on the exact date but I put it here once I know more.
    Indeed.

    What I forgot to mention is that whomever removed those two cross rails did so in a way that makes Tunnel 3 potentially appear open. The missing cross rails are no where to be seen and I did a double take even though I knew Tunnel 3 was closed. It will not look like a fenced off trail to many who do not know the area or do not look at the map carefully. The "Trail" sign has a double ended arrow (<--->) that is slightly turned where if you are coming up to the bottom of Tunnel 3, you may assume that it is directing you up Tunnel 3. If you stopped and realized that it would be a three way intersection if Tunnel 3 was open, you may figure out that Tunnel 3 is open, but I doubt if a good percentage of new riders would stop and think twice.
    The top of Tunnel 3 is very obviously blocked with the steel gate and all wooden fence rails were in place last night, so hopefully new riders don't get led astray up Tunnel 3 from the bottom only to find themselves at a dead end.
    I make maps and seek out adventure using a Salsa El Mariachi with a 29+ front end. Read more here:

    RideAlongside

  40. #440
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    1,744
    There are a few decent segments listed in strava showing tunnel routes.
    Might be a good way to organize and outline what the legal trails are. If we had a san diego database, then all enthusiasts can check each one off.
    I've looked at Ride with GPS and didn't find any decent ones listed.

  41. #441
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    1,744
    Tunnel 4 is the only tunnel open? Is there a map online that outlines and numbers each tunnel?

  42. #442
    mtbr member
    Reputation: D_Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    694
    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonlui View Post
    Tunnel 4 is the only tunnel open? Is there a map online that outlines and numbers each tunnel?
    No need to number them anymore, since there is only one tunnel.

  43. #443
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    104
    Tunnels is now known as tunnel, let's enjoy the trail.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  44. #444
    Adventure Mapper
    Reputation: forgiven_nick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    537
    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Map

    Two tunnels are still open. Tunnel 1 (labeled Deer Creek Trail on the map above) and Tunnel 4 (labeled Tunnel 4 on the map above) if you can't read the map on your mobile device, press and hold your finger on the map image, then select open image (or better yet, "save image") and zoom in. You shouldn't need a GPS, strava, a special app on your phone, or anything to find which trails are open, just bring the image above, take your time on the trails and look at the map often, assuring that you know where you are on the map, if you aren't sure, backtrack until you are and begin to track your progress on the map again. Relying on anything else to ensure you are on the intended trail is less than ideal. The signage, as I said before, is pretty decent right now, so that should help lots too.

  45. #445
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,029
    Quote Originally Posted by forgiven_nick View Post
    Two tunnels are still open. Tunnel 1 (labeled Deer Creek Trail on the map above) and Tunnel 4 (labeled Tunnel 4 on the map above) if you can't read the map on your mobile device, press and hold your finger on the map image, then select open image (or better yet, "save image") and zoom in. You shouldn't need a GPS, strava, a special app on your phone, or anything to find which trails are open, just bring the image above, take your time on the trails and look at the map often, assuring that you know where you are on the map, if you aren't sure, backtrack until you are and begin to track your progress on the map again. Relying on anything else to ensure you are on the intended trail is less than ideal. The signage, as I said before, is pretty decent right now, so that should help lots too.
    I was out there this morning. I think rocking horse is closed from the eucalyptus grove side, but not from the tunnel end. Main tunnel and copenhagen tunnel are open. Some of the side trails in the tunnels seem to be open but others are clearly fenced off. I think roller coaster is closed too.

  46. #446
    IPA tester
    Reputation: Dirtrider127's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    841
    Quote Originally Posted by wjphillips View Post
    I was out there this morning. I think rocking horse is closed from the eucalyptus grove side, but not from the tunnel end. Main tunnel and copenhagen tunnel are open. Some of the side trails in the tunnels seem to be open but others are clearly fenced off. I think roller coaster is closed too.
    I have never heard any of those trails being called "main Tunnel", "Copenhagen", or "Roller coaster"..
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

    -Urban Yeti
    Dirttreaders.com

  47. #447
    Titanium Club
    Reputation: Ferdball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    229
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferdball View Post
    Erik, can you explain this please? Who fabricated what?
    I'm serious. I don't understand which part was fabricated. Can anyone elaborate?

  48. #448
    BM and PQ Trail Rep
    Reputation: bankerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,620
    I believe he is referring to the ludicrous claims that there was never a migrant population in the canyons, the land was alway pristine (the cleanup never happened), and the trails were all created by rogue mountain bikers hell bent on destroying the environment. This was proven not to be the case a long time ago. Most of the groups (still a few holdouts) came together over the last couple of years to get to where we are now. It is a far from perfect and still needing work, the present trails plan we currently have.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  49. #449
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    25
    The sanitizing appears to be almost complete. I saw an old man riding in dress shoes with dress socks. What's next? Paving the trails in DG for strollers? I'm glad that the trails are open (I do appreciate the hard work that people put into getting things legalized) but the trails are being dummied down to the lowest common denominator. That's a bummer.

  50. #450
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,029
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    I have never heard any of those trails being called "main Tunnel", "Copenhagen", or "Roller coaster"..
    They are labeled those names on openstreetmaps. In the old days we had similar names (like rocking horse, etc...)

  51. #451
    mtbr member
    Reputation: EBasil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,092

    Idea!

    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    I believe he is referring to the ludicrous claims that there was never a migrant population in the canyons, the land was always pristine (the cleanups never happened), and the trails were all created by rogue mountain bikers hell bent on destroying the environment. This was proven not to be the case a long time ago...
    Yes. That's what I was referring to, Ferd.

  52. #452
    mtbr member
    Reputation: DannyHuynh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    410
    edit

  53. #453
    mtbr member
    Reputation: DannyHuynh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    410
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    I have never heard any of those trails being called "main Tunnel", "Copenhagen", or "Roller coaster"..
    roller coaster is sidewinder i think

  54. #454
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    1,744
    What's the technical difficulty of tunnel1 going down and up?
    I have yet try it.

  55. #455
    IPA tester
    Reputation: Dirtrider127's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    841
    Quote Originally Posted by jacksonlui View Post
    What's the technical difficulty of tunnel1 going down and up?
    I have yet try it.
    T1 or Deer Creek Trail is not hard other than dodging low hanging branches. It's a bit tighter than other trails down there
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

    -Urban Yeti
    Dirttreaders.com

  56. #456
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,029
    I noticed yesterday that someone placed branches across tunnel 4 at various points along the trail. Someone doesn't like mountain bikers on those trails.

  57. #457
    mtbr member
    Reputation: EBasil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,092
    Just a quick note on Tunnel 3/Rocking Horse: it was a great trail that should be open, but it is not. It's closed and will remain that way. The people who are frustrated by this and are removing the barriers and fences installed are only playing directly into the hands of those who would rather fence the entire area off so that it can only be visited by "naturalists" (don't get all excited, that's not a nudist) on foot and with "studies" to do.

    If you're up there and tempted, or up there and see the self-help crowd moving stuff, please remember this: it's a trap.

  58. #458
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dseybert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    147
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    T1 or Deer Creek Trail is not hard other than dodging low hanging branches. It's a bit tighter than other trails down there
    The most technical part of the trail is dodging incoming riders.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

  59. #459
    BM and PQ Trail Rep
    Reputation: bankerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,620
    Lots of confusion and displeasure out there. Here is a link to a loop option to help ease some head on traffic. I find it best to climb up tunnel four and descend the fire road for now. It is all on legal trail. The only head on point in the map is the point on tunnel one between the two northern connectors.

    MAP - A legal loop in DMM
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  60. #460
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    213
    I think that many are not on this site that ride. There is a certain amount of rugged individualism here in the US as well as the MTB community. To expect all to follow the rules is silly. If they use this logic to close the entire system they might as well close it now. I have ridden the area and can only say that many of the trails closed do not make sense. I am not referring to the known closures ie T3,4,etc etc etc but the connectors to get from powerlines to the tunnels on the mesa. Every known connector trail seems to be off limits and it is confusing.

  61. #461
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    302
    Quote Originally Posted by EBasil View Post
    Just a quick note on Tunnel 3/Rocking Horse: it was a great trail that should be open, but it is not. It's closed and will remain that way. The people who are frustrated by this and are removing the barriers and fences installed are only playing directly into the hands of those who would rather fence the entire area off so that it can only be visited by "naturalists" (don't get all excited, that's not a nudist) on foot and with "studies" to do.

    If you're up there and tempted, or up there and see the self-help crowd moving stuff, please remember this: it's a trap.
    There were at least one game camera at tunnel 3 this Sunday morning (10/25), so something gonna happen.
    PS: I was never there, I saw it with my psychic vision.

  62. #462
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    266
    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post
    There is a certain amount of rugged individualism here in the US as well as the MTB community. To expect all to follow the rules is silly.
    I attended the Planning Commision hearing on the DMM NRMP earlier this year. A specific question from a commisioner to the Deputy Director of SD City Open Space was the enforcement aspect.

    As the purpose of the preserves existence is to PRESERVE, the management plan must include the means by which to ensure preservation (which includes rehab of the closed trails).

    Bottom line: Either the trail users self police and ostensibly comply with the trails plan or the agencies have no choice but to police by other means.

    Whatever happens at DMM will be the case study cited for any new trail systems. Personally, I'm in a holding pattern on any trails advocacy projects. If we can't self police at DMM then my legs get cut out from under me.

    All thru the process we said this trails plan was inadequate and "doomsday" predicted the situation we have today with some small percentage vandalizing and another moderately sized percentage agreeing with them in spirit out of a sense of injustice.

    OK, not an unforeseen situation. Over time however that moderately sized group will adapt and acknowledge (I won't say "accept") the trails plan as called for in the NRMP.

    The "storming and the norming" is how I heard this emotional process labelled. The key is the timing that it takes for the "norming" to take hold. We can be passive and let it evolve over a long period of time or we can be active (communicate verbally) and expedite the inevitable.

  63. #463
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    302
    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    ...
    All thru the process we said this trails plan was inadequate and "doomsday" predicted the situation we have today with some small percentage vandalizing and another moderately sized percentage agreeing with them in spirit out of a sense of injustice.

    OK, not an unforeseen situation. Over time however that moderately sized group will adapt and acknowledge (I won't say "accept") the trails plan as called for in the NRMP.
    Literally every time I've been there I see a lot more people on illegal trails, than on legal ones, so its not "small percentage vandalizing".

  64. #464
    Well Biked
    Reputation: scepticshock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    1,698
    Pretty much all the wood fencing was removed from the bottom of Rocking horse, so if would be pretty easy for someone legally coming down tunnel 4 to end up going up Tunnel 3 by mistake. Whomever removed the fencing has now provoked the authorities in to more enforcement. Whoever did this, great idea. Thanks!

  65. #465
    BM and PQ Trail Rep
    Reputation: bankerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,620
    Quote Originally Posted by El_Zilcho View Post
    Literally every time I've been there I see a lot more people on illegal trails, than on legal ones, so its not "small percentage vandalizing".
    He is not speaking to the people riding the trail. They are in the wrong but probably would try to plead "I didn't know. There were no markings". Had the fencing remained in place the legal route would be clearly marked and the people on illegal trails would not have been there.

    Every time the fence is replaced, there is a core of entitled users that tear it down and hide the fence so it appears never to have been there. They also de-brush the trail to appear it was never closed. Signs have been continually removed. Even new trails through the chaparral around the fences that are too cumbersome to remove have been cut. It is a free-for-all out there right now.

    If cameras are out there, you can bet your bottom dollar that heavier enforcement is not far behind. Same thing happened up on the fenced CDF&G land.

    It is going to be expensive for a bunch of people in there soon enough. Know your trails, figure out what is legal and what is not. Most riders already know, just don't want to accept it.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  66. #466
    mtbr member
    Reputation: D_Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    694
    Is it not possible just to brush/plow the closed tunnel so thoroughly that it is unridable?

    Assuming that a wooden fence or an honor code will keep a lid on the situation seems unrealistic, especially when the trails plan ignores advice that a quality user experience is one of the best ways to promote compliance. So if you are going to close a trail, then close the damn thing.

  67. #467
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    266
    A few strategically placed pig carcasses rotting in the sun would make most turn around.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj3Dhzch93Q

    go to 33:30
    Last edited by rodster; 10-26-2015 at 07:35 PM.

  68. #468
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    213
    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    I attended the Planning Commision hearing on the DMM NRMP earlier this year. A specific question from a commisioner to the Deputy Director of SD City Open Space was the enforcement aspect.

    As the purpose of the preserves existence is to PRESERVE, the management plan must include the means by which to ensure preservation (which includes rehab of the closed trails).

    Bottom line: Either the trail users self police and ostensibly comply with the trails plan or the agencies have no choice but to police by other means.

    Whatever happens at DMM will be the case study cited for any new trail systems. Personally, I'm in a holding pattern on any trails advocacy projects. If we can't self police at DMM then my legs get cut out from under me.

    All thru the process we said this trails plan was inadequate and "doomsday" predicted the situation we have today with some small percentage vandalizing and another moderately sized percentage agreeing with them in spirit out of a sense of injustice.

    OK, not an unforeseen situation. Over time however that moderately sized group will adapt and acknowledge (I won't say "accept") the trails plan as called for in the NRMP.

    The "storming and the norming" is how I heard this emotional process labelled. The key is the timing that it takes for the "norming" to take hold. We can be passive and let it evolve over a long period of time or we can be active (communicate verbally) and expedite the inevitable.
    Believe me when I say I appreciate all of the help from guys like you working toward opening the trails. That goes to bankerboy as well and whomever else has worked hard on our behalf.

    As far as my quote much of the confusion has been rectified and access to the open trails is good now and much less confusing.

    It does seem the they are putting mountain bikers in an untenable position especially those going to meetings etc.

    The solution of self police is not a solution at all. Can you imagine the same for drivers? how many infractions do you see on a short trip to the store? Is it the responsibility of each driver to enforce the rules of the road? Furthermore what if you see said driver clearly run a stop sign and you confront them and they become hostile. Is this a wise course of action?

    I am not trying to shoot the messenger but the solution that was forced on looks pretty ridiculous from my view. Self police really? with what authority? With what power? With what agency protection? With what training? with what rules of engagement?

    I am not defending those vandalizing that sucks.

    I am merely pointing out the major flaw. Self governance works for yourself but is not always welcomed by others.

  69. #469
    ocd
    ocd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    579
    If a camera is placed without adequate signage and is removed, is it finders keepers?

    I was taught to take out more trash than you bring in and without signage, I assume it's trash.

  70. #470
    mtbr member
    Reputation: k2rider1964's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,244
    I went out there a couple weeks ago for the 1st time with friends who have been many, many times. We climbed up from the post office in Sorrento Valley and came to one area with a metal fence and signage. Off to the left was Tunnel 4 but right next to the top of T4 was a WIDE path leading over to the Tunnel that was blocked by that gate. Anybody coming up T4 and heading straight to the left would never see that gate or signage so they could absolutely plead ignorance. As somebody who worked in law enforcement for 31 years, I can tell you that enforcing any closure out there w/o signage is not worthwhile as it will get tossed in court.

    A similar argument was going on over in the Colorado forum in regards to some "unauthorized" trails and the argument being made was similar to what Rodster posted above in post #11. However, the "other" side was more or less saying that the more draconian "the man" becomes, the more unauthorized trails there will be. Whether we like it or not, I believe Gallo is right in that there is a rebel attitude involved in the sport and riding closed trails or making go-arounds is always going to happen. That may indeed lead to more enforcement but if you're not on any illegal trails, you won't have anything to worry about.

  71. #471
    BM and PQ Trail Rep
    Reputation: bankerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,620
    Quote Originally Posted by ocd View Post
    If a camera is placed without adequate signage and is removed, is it finders keepers?
    It is straight forward theft.

    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    I went out there a couple weeks ago for the 1st time with friends who have been many, many times. We climbed up from the post office in Sorrento Valley and came to one area with a metal fence and signage. Off to the left was Tunnel 4 but right next to the top of T4 was a WIDE path leading over to the Tunnel that was blocked by that gate. Anybody coming up T4 and heading straight to the left would never see that gate or signage so they could absolutely plead ignorance. As somebody who worked in law enforcement for 31 years, I can tell you that enforcing any closure out there w/o signage is not worthwhile as it will get tossed in court.
    There were plenty of signs and fences at the bottom or Rocking Horse (T3). They have all been pulled, discarded, and all remnants stolen by vandals. There was evidence of saws, hatchets, and other tool used to remove them. The fences were repaired and the signs replaced. Again, they were destroyed and removed by vandals. A third round was done and the end result was the same. There are signs at the trail head delineating the legal paths. On several occasions those were torn down too.

    One can claim there were mistakes made by riders at the bottom of tunnel 3 but the majority are blatantly disregarding the legal trails for selfish reasons. Look at the number to tracks at the top of tunnel 4 at the defiantly cut bypass to tunnel 3. Since that is not a trail that one typically rides UP, it is easy to understand that more that 75% of the riders start at the top knowingly bypassing the fence on the end.

    What needs to happen is a complete destruction of the tread, along with a complete rebrushing of the corridor. Even then, I bet there will be those who will attempt reestablish it because they feel entitled to the land.
    Last edited by bankerboy; 10-27-2015 at 12:42 PM.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  72. #472
    mtbr member
    Reputation: k2rider1964's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,244
    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    There were plenty of signs and fences at the bottom or Rocking Horse (T3). They have all been pulled, discarded, and all remnants stolen by vandals. There was evidence of saws, hatchets, and other tool used to remove them. The fences were repaired and the signs replaced. Again, they were destroyed and removed by vandals. A third round was done and the end result was the same. There are signs at the trail head delineating the legal paths. On several occasions those were torn down too.

    One can claim there were mistakes made by riders at the bottom of tunnel 3 but the majority are blatantly disregarding the legal trails for selfish reasons. Look at the number to tracks at the top of tunnel 4 at the defiantly cut bypass to tunnel 3. Since that is not a trail that one typically rides UP, it is easy to understand that more that 75% of the riders start at the top knowingly bypassing the fence on the end.

    What needs to happen is a complete destruction of the tread, along with a complete rebrushing of the corridor. Even then, I bet there will be those who will attempt reestablish it because they feel entitled to the land.
    Aside from Tunnel #4, I don't know where any of those trails are that you named so I'm kind of clueless overall. I know after we ended up in some valley to the west (and north of where we parked in Sorrento Valley), all the others who had been there numerous times had a back and forth discussion about a switchback trail that may or may not be open/legal to ride to get back up top. One guy insisted he was there a few weeks back and there were closure signs but we got over to the bottom of that trail and there was no signage (or evidence there ever was) and no fencing of any kind. Maybe this is another area where the signs have been removed? I hope not because the only other way back to our cars was double-backing the same way we came.

  73. #473
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    302
    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    ...
    What needs to happen is a complete destruction of the tread, along with a complete rebrushing of the corridor. Even then, I bet there will be those who will attempt reestablish it because they feel entitled to the land.
    Its cheaper and better for everybody to make this trail legal and be done with it.

  74. #474
    Beer Please! SuperModerator
    Reputation: Klurejr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    5,080
    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    All thru the process we said this trails plan was inadequate and "doomsday" predicted the situation we have today with some small percentage vandalizing and another moderately sized percentage agreeing with them in spirit out of a sense of injustice.
    I am not advocating riding the "closed" trails, but those making the decisions about this trail system are making a huge mistake by not listening to what they were warned about.

    It would of been better to leave ALL the tunnels trails open. Those trails are not newly established and having people MTB down them is not ruining the environment, killing off endangered species or any other end of days scenario.

    To think that people who have been hiking, trail running, horseback riding and yes, Mountain Biking the same trails for over 25-30 years are just going to stop because a government official has made a decision to make it "off limits" is quite short sighted.

    I am not justifying anyone who tears down signs and Fences, just calling out the stupidity of those who think they can police this kind of activity, no matter what, the city/county/state does not have enough man power to be out there at all times of day guarding the old trails.

    It is just a sad situation all around.
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

    Know these before you post:
    MTBR Posting Rules
    e-bike forum rules

  75. #475
    BM and PQ Trail Rep
    Reputation: bankerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,620
    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    One guy insisted he was there a few weeks back and there were closure signs but we got over to the bottom of that trail and there was no signage (or evidence there ever was) and no fencing of any kind. Maybe this is another area where the signs have been removed?
    Proof how hard some of worked to hide the closures.

    This is the top you/I speak of (from SDMBA Facebook)...

    Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-12027540_10153207806946172_531758790630186619_n.jpg

    This is the bottom of tunnel three where your buddies took you. It is a few weeks ago. The fence was already breached in this photo.

    Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-10626604_10153199756616172_277565164849850492_n.jpg

    It used to be a continuous fence. Since then there have been 2 more builds and vandals have made it completely disappear.

    Again, I am willing to bet there will be enforcement in the near future on the level of what we saw when the CDF&W came in to play two years ago.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  76. #476
    BM and PQ Trail Rep
    Reputation: bankerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,620
    Quote Originally Posted by El_Zilcho View Post
    Its cheaper and better for everybody to make this trail legal and be done with it.
    Absolutely won't happen. It is already written into the city's master plan as core habitat. You have a better chance of getting bikes approved in Wilderness land. We fought for it long ago and, sadly, it was not part of the equation. It was suggested to be used as part of the needed East/West connector. It was a losing battle from the beginning in 2008 but the original plan was ZERO trails in the area. What is there (current and pending) were the result of some long, long discussions. Compromise sucks, but it is what it is.

    The takeaway has been how to effectively work with the city in getting other projects before the city and approved. The Parks and Rec and the City Open Space Divisions are much more open to recreation suggestions due, in part, to some of the dialogue that took place over the last 7 years around the DMM. When the topic of trails and riding comes up now, at least we are not systematically dismissed as a fad.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  77. #477
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    302
    But the only way they can close it for good is to have a person there 24/7 or to destroy the tunnel 3. Destroying is expensive and does not go well with it been a core habitat. Having a person there is just expensive.

  78. #478
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    266
    Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-headinsand.jpg

  79. #479
    mtbr member
    Reputation: k2rider1964's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    2,244
    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Absolutely won't happen. It is already written into the city's master plan as core habitat. You have a better chance of getting bikes approved in Wilderness land. We fought for it long ago and, sadly, it was not part of the equation. It was suggested to be used as part of the needed East/West connector. It was a losing battle from the beginning in 2008 but the original plan was ZERO trails in the area. What is there (current and pending) were the result of some long, long discussions. Compromise sucks, but it is what it is.

    The takeaway has been how to effectively work with the city in getting other projects before the city and approved. The Parks and Rec and the City Open Space Divisions are much more open to recreation suggestions due, in part, to some of the dialogue that took place over the last 7 years around the DMM. When the topic of trails and riding comes up now, at least we are not systematically dismissed as a fad.
    After working for the City of SD for 29 years, I know just how incompetent they are. Good luck to you guys down there. On a related note, we just went to Black Mtn (hadn't ridden there for almost 15 years) for a bike demo last weekend and rode that new Lilac Trail. It amazes me that the city approve that but has issues with the Tunnels area which aside for those MTB trails is vast nothingness....at least until new houses are built in 2020 or 2025. Sigh...

  80. #480
    mtbr member
    Reputation: socal_jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,180
    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Proof how hard some of worked to hide the closures.

    This is the top you/I speak of (from SDMBA Facebook)...

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	12027540_10153207806946172_531758790630186619_n.jpg 
Views:	66 
Size:	125.5 KB 
ID:	1024842
    That gate and fence are like a monument to the stupidity of bureaucracies, must've taken 5 minutes at most to cut the trail around them. Same thing at the fence at the top of T5 I noticed last weekend while crossing bowtie. The only way they'll get total compliance is if the whole thing burns in the next big fire as I don't think the majority of riders even go on these forums.

  81. #481
    ocd
    ocd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    579
    sorry to say gents, the city loses this round.

    close more trails.. 2x as many trails are built elsewhere.

    Who should be policing their own ranks? City staff. Those who realize that recreational opportunities are being taken away from taxpayers year after year and that something should be done about this.

    "it costs too much"... "we don't have the resources"... "there's nothing we can do"...

    Until a power company proposes a new power plant on MSCP land and all of the sudden, anyone will bend over backwards to get that mitigation land.

  82. #482
    IPA tester
    Reputation: Dirtrider127's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    841
    Just go ride when and where you can and enjoy the trails while their here.
    Have a post ride brew, rinse and repeat.
    Sooner than later there will be track homes and shopping malls so
    "ride it until they pave it" Life's too short for internet BS and babble.
    Government will always be stirring the pot for those that pay their salaries and contribute to elections/groups. Thanks to all for fighting the fight and hopefully I'll see you on the trails!
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

    -Urban Yeti
    Dirttreaders.com

  83. #483
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    457
    rode down tunnel 4 today and was planning to ride up tunnel 3 and take the mesa loop.. unfortunately, at the bottom of tunnel 3, there were some people working on the trails, was told that they are decommisioning that trailhead.. they were tearing up the trail with their shovels and picks.. i'll see tomorrow, 1st nov. what changes they have made..

  84. #484
    BM and PQ Trail Rep
    Reputation: bankerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,620
    There is still a lot of confusion over what is and is not open.

    From the beginning, no part of tunnel 3 including tunnel 2 was part of the open trails equation. The only tunnels on the east side of the fire road that will remain open under the approved city plan is tunnel 1 (Deer Creek trail) and tunnel 4.
    Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-1009626d1440042637-tickets-being-issues-all-del-mar-mesa-aka-tunnels-dmm2.jpg

    Originally, prior to 2008, the Del Mar Mesa was scheduled to be closed off to all use. That was changed after a very vocal group of riders got organized and created a huge buzz about what was going to be lost. The final plan was not what we wanted but it did preserve some of the essence of the DMM. Tunnel 3 has been closed, signed, and fenced off a number of times. Those markers were removed by users who were not involved in the process and chose to feel the rules were not for them. Once all traces were removed, multiple users rode those trails because "they weren't marked as closed".

    That changed today. The city hired a professional trail crew to come in and close down tunnel three by turning over the dirt on the tread and brushing it while the city ranger added signage at the top stating it is closed. She was out there today talking with everyone who stopped to ask. She also said they will start enforcing the closures by ticketing riders who are in the area after the closure.

    [Soapbox rant]

    Not really surprised by this. It is going to get expensive for somebody really soon. They are going to target specific ride times that are the most common time the trails get reopened by users bent on not following the rules.

    If you don't like the rules, do your due diligence and go to the city. The continued disobedience and vandalism on the trail is not going to stop them from enforcing the law. Worse yet, we have been informed by the city it can have a negative impact on other areas that are not as restrictive as DMM. The crew that is being used in DMM was actually scheduled to build trail in Black Mountain. Instead, they are now somewhere else doing the exact opposite of what they could have been doing.

    [/Soapbox rant]
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  85. #485
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    457
    ^^ i try to keep it legal when riding dmm.. as a matter of fact, today was only my third time going down tunnel 4, first time going up today.. 2x going up tunnel 3 last week and again twice on mesa loop (was just curious about the trail). i spoke with the ranger you speak of, melanie i think.. couple of riders were going down tunnel 3 while the crew were working on it.. at least now i pretty much know where to and where not to ride in dmm.. plans are still on the works i was told eventually to open up the rim trail and a new loop trail north of it .. we'll see how it turns up

  86. #486
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mrmattjohnson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    861
    i rode PQ on friday late morning, ranger truck at the top of tunnel 4. Probably doing trail work.

  87. #487
    Well Biked
    Reputation: scepticshock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    1,698
    What a bummer! A trail crew forced to destroy a great trail.

    I'm sure turning over the soil before an El Nino is a great formula for a load of erosion.

  88. #488
    ocd
    ocd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    579
    a trail that existed for decades, now being dug out/destroyed to protect the habitat....
    seems like a great approach!

  89. #489
    ocd
    ocd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    579
    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post

    If you don't like the rules, do your due diligence and go to the city. The continued disobedience and vandalism on the trail is not going to stop them from enforcing the law. Worse yet, we have been informed by the city it can have a negative impact on other areas that are not as restrictive as DMM. The crew that is being used in DMM was actually scheduled to build trail in Black Mountain. Instead, they are now somewhere else doing the exact opposite of what they could have been doing.

    [/Soapbox rant]
    This is classic idiocy of the city... "well we were going to give you something but now that a few people ruined it you're not getting it" . I'm not bagging you but that approach just doesn't work and no one should buy into it. It's all an enormous amount of hogwash.

    It took 7 years to approve a trails plan, in which someone completely forgot to mention that the coastal commission needed to approve of (or something).. someone is being lied to.

  90. #490
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,328
    Quote Originally Posted by ocd View Post
    This is classic idiocy of the city... "well we were going to give you something but now that a few people ruined it you're not getting it" . I'm not bagging you but that approach just doesn't work and no one should buy into it. It's all an enormous amount of hogwash.

    It took 7 years to approve a trails plan, in which someone completely forgot to mention that the coastal commission needed to approve of (or something).. someone is being lied to.
    Someone skeptical of your skepticism might ask what your approach would be. Maybe kicking down fences?

    I'm not on the side of the bureaucrats, but I just don't see how, "Just ride it, they can't stop us all MAAAAAANNNNN" is going to work in the long run.

  91. #491
    ocd
    ocd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    579
    Quote Originally Posted by PhxChem View Post
    Someone skeptical of your skepticism might ask what your approach would be. Maybe kicking down fences?

    I'm not on the side of the bureaucrats, but I just don't see how, "Just ride it, they can't stop us all MAAAAAANNNNN" is going to work in the long run.
    My approach would be to employ parks/trails managers who understand and put in an effort to appropriately manage demand, growth and user needs.

    The draconian "a few people are ruining it, so we will take it away from everyone" is a ridiculous approach. Imagine this ... "people are littering and vandalizing at the beaches, we're going to close them to everyone if this doesn't stop"...

  92. #492
    BM and PQ Trail Rep
    Reputation: bankerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,620
    Quote Originally Posted by ocd View Post
    The draconian "a few people are ruining it, so we will take it away from everyone" is a ridiculous approach. Imagine this ... "people are littering and vandalizing at the beaches, we're going to close them to everyone if this doesn't stop"...
    Ok, lets go through this once again...

    Nothing was taken from the users because of recent events. Tunnel three was NEVER part of the plan. It was ALWAYS slated to be closed, no matter how hard we fought. It was either it or tunnel four and after the core habitat was established on the map, tunnel four became the ONLY allowable option under the city's resource plan. Tunnel three was not closed because of misuse. It is not part of the city's trails plan.

    The trail crew that was diverted to the tunnels closure was not the lynch pin in the Black Mountain trails plan. It was a great opportunity to have a head start on the trails building season at Black Mountain by having the corridors pre-brushed. This will allow us to build at a much faster rate. Much of the time on the Lilac corridor was brushing and it was very hard work. That is why the first 3/4 mile took so long. Now, worst case scenario is we will have to do the brushing on our own. That means lots of work for us. It is not a stoppage of the trails plan at Black Mountain.

    End of world/draconian as you claim? Hardly.

    There is fault on both sides here.

    The City's Plan - The DMM trails plan was lacking from the begging and we all knew that. There is no east/west connector, there are no real loops(a little creativity and you can avoid some redundancy), and there are parts that are still dependent upon the Coastal Commission that most (including yours truly) were unaware of. The Coastal Commission is moving along at about the pace we all expected towards the west Mesa Trail and the Switch Backs. Tunnel Five and part of the original west mesa trail are forever off the plan due to animal corridors, vernal pools, USFW land, and private property. Part of what the the city is working on is procuring an easement from Pardee and the land owner over by the Del Mar Pond (Deer lake?). Pardee is open to it and the private land owner is too but he wants a more northern alignment so it does not interfere with future development rights.

    The users - Most did not know of the closures until they happened. Some felt the city has no right to say what the city can and cannot do with the land and took actions into their own hands. New trails were cut around the fence at the top of tunnel four over to tunnel 3 and another was done around the fence at tunnel 5. The fences were ripped out at the bottom of tunnel 3 and users would once again use the trail stating "no signs or fences were seen".

    All this has been posted again and again but it doesn't seem to change minds.

    Part of the issue is there are those who will never accept this and will continue to fight. City is going after those parties by sending in both rangers and police (Northern division has a bike unit and has volunteered some time) during times when there has been activity. Why do you think those cameras were there?

    The other part is better that 75% of the users do not read, post, or know of this site. So another thing the city is needs to commit to is a robust information campaign. Better trail head signs would be a start. When I sat there with for 10 minutes, better than 20 different riders asked Ranger Melanie about what was going on. I doubt they are going to set up an information booth but it is apparent that the message has not been received by the masses. They have asked for a mountain bike patrol to help inform users of that is legal and what is not. Don't know yet what the likelihood of the patrol is, but there was one a number of years ago headed up by Eric Basil. Maybe it is time?

    So, read into this anyway you want. It is unfortunate and it sucks but it is happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by ocd View Post
    My approach would be to employ parks/trails managers who understand and put in an effort to appropriately manage demand, growth and user needs.
    You have my vote if you decide to run for office.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  93. #493
    IPA tester
    Reputation: Dirtrider127's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    841
    I think that most trail users (myself included) feel that areas like PQ have had so many trails closed to MTB'ers and NO NEW trails.
    The DMM is just a small piece but the one that breaks our backs. Those tunnel trails show up on aerial maps from 1964 so nobody built them legally or illegally.
    They closed the single tracks to bikers next to the creek on both sides, brush closed many others, and yet the ponies keep riding wherever they want. Check out how frigging wide that "trail" is now from the Official PQ entrance heading west. Look on the north side where the pony riders keep moving off trail which is causing that. I'm sure any day now they will have a trail day to repair that damage ....

    Bankerboy, you know I really do know whats happening there as you do but when are the rangers going to work with the bikers? Yes, there are all kinds of politics to be worked through. I get it. But how can developers build I road without a game tunnel like is happening at Rhodes Crossing? How can Bulldozers just plow through the area that WAS "sensitive habitat?
    Mediation land? What a complete sham that whole deal is and everyone knows it.

    We all know this is only a game and the players that are winning have bigger wallets. I get that too.. Personally I'm a bit sick of playing the games and will ride the trails as long as they are here. At this rate, we might all have to become roadies

    Before I get flamed about that last tidbit, I think it would be hard to find any SDMBA board member or paying member that hasn't ridden and/or built a trail section here and there on their own. I know that to be factual like you do

    I'm never going to tear down a sign or fence and will replace them as I already have done here & there. If there is a trail to ride I might just head down it and take my chances. Maybe my inner old fart is coming out now... Heading out for a quick night ride to view the sensitive habitat and mellow out

    Rant done for the time being
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

    -Urban Yeti
    Dirttreaders.com

  94. #494
    ocd
    ocd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    579
    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Ok, lets go through this once again...

    Nothing was taken from the users because of recent events. Tunnel three was NEVER part of the plan. It was ALWAYS slated to be closed, no matter how hard we fought. It was either it or tunnel four and after the core habitat was established on the map, tunnel four became the ONLY allowable option under the city's resource plan. Tunnel three was not closed because of misuse. It is not part of the city's trails plan.

    The trail crew that was diverted to the tunnels closure was not the lynch pin in the Black Mountain trails plan. It was a great opportunity to have a head start on the trails building season at Black Mountain by having the corridors pre-brushed. This will allow us to build at a much faster rate. Much of the time on the Lilac corridor was brushing and it was very hard work. That is why the first 3/4 mile took so long. Now, worst case scenario is we will have to do the brushing on our own. That means lots of work for us. It is not a stoppage of the trails plan at Black Mountain.

    End of world/draconian as you claim? Hardly.

    There is fault on both sides here.

    The City's Plan - The DMM trails plan was lacking from the begging and we all knew that. There is no east/west connector, there are no real loops(a little creativity and you can avoid some redundancy), and there are parts that are still dependent upon the Coastal Commission that most (including yours truly) were unaware of. The Coastal Commission is moving along at about the pace we all expected towards the west Mesa Trail and the Switch Backs. Tunnel Five and part of the original west mesa trail are forever off the plan due to animal corridors, vernal pools, USFW land, and private property. Part of what the the city is working on is procuring an easement from Pardee and the land owner over by the Del Mar Pond (Deer lake?). Pardee is open to it and the private land owner is too but he wants a more northern alignment so it does not interfere with future development rights.

    The users - Most did not know of the closures until they happened. Some felt the city has no right to say what the city can and cannot do with the land and took actions into their own hands. New trails were cut around the fence at the top of tunnel four over to tunnel 3 and another was done around the fence at tunnel 5. The fences were ripped out at the bottom of tunnel 3 and users would once again use the trail stating "no signs or fences were seen".

    All this has been posted again and again but it doesn't seem to change minds.

    Part of the issue is there are those who will never accept this and will continue to fight. City is going after those parties by sending in both rangers and police (Northern division has a bike unit and has volunteered some time) during times when there has been activity. Why do you think those cameras were there?

    The other part is better that 75% of the users do not read, post, or know of this site. So another thing the city is needs to commit to is a robust information campaign. Better trail head signs would be a start. When I sat there with for 10 minutes, better than 20 different riders asked Ranger Melanie about what was going on. I doubt they are going to set up an information booth but it is apparent that the message has not been received by the masses. They have asked for a mountain bike patrol to help inform users of that is legal and what is not. Don't know yet what the likelihood of the patrol is, but there was one a number of years ago headed up by Eric Basil. Maybe it is time?

    So, read into this anyway you want. It is unfortunate and it sucks but it is happening.



    You have my vote if you decide to run for office.
    We've seen/heard the draconian approach for years..

    Lady says she was buzzed on Cowles and bikes shouldn't be there "We're closing Cowles to bikes"

    Someone builds a 1 foot kicker in Suycott wash off a rock... "If the building doesn't stop, we will close the park to bikes"

    DMM ... things aren't going as they should be in the neighborhood... "If this continues, it's going to negatively affect trails around the city".


    and so on and so forth.

    I'm not tearing down fences and I'm not building illegally. In fact, I'm as legal-begad as I can be within reason.

    However, the city is full of sh! t and that's fairly well known. They've failed to implement an appropriate trails plan. I'm aware many people were not aware about the coastal commission deal but it seems far fetched to think someone in the city did not know and did not pass this on. More people are on bikes every day. There's plenty of open space to make appropriate trails on. It doesn't matter what acronym you use to describe the land... if a major developer comes in with say a proposed power plant, then that land can be "changed to accommodate". So if that's the case for the developers, it's the case for the city as well. Just so long as someone in the city wants to make that happen.

  95. #495
    IPA tester
    Reputation: Dirtrider127's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    841
    My above rant was not directed at you Bankerboy and /or anyone else that has also worked their butts off for trail access. It was directed at the system and those who work within it. People can make a change like you have. Government employees like rangers and CDFW can push the system for positive reforms too.
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

    -Urban Yeti
    Dirttreaders.com

  96. #496
    mtbr member
    Reputation: D_Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    694
    There is no doubt we are all fighting over scraps from the developers' table and that the MSCP is ultimately as much about facilitating development as protecting anything. Pretty hard not to be cynical about it.

    I think there is a dawning realization amongst some in the wildlife agencies that plowing over open space for development, then trying to keep humans out of a second parcel of open space--the so-called mitigation land--without at the same time planning for some recreation mitigation land is a big mistake. When the population grows but places to recreate do not grow, that is a problem for everyone.

    I too tire of the constant implicit threat that if not all mountain bikers behave, we'll take even more trails away from you. On the other hand, when hikers destroyed the west side of cowles, the response was to spend hundreds of thousands to repair the damage they had done, and not to ticket them for destroying switchbacks, or try to ban them from the trail.

    It also gets tiresome seeing trail plans that start with no single track, requiring mountain bikers to fight for every scrap of trail. It's a nice bargaining tactic for the city and the wildlife agencies. But the only way to "win" and have a trail system that promotes compliance and a sense of stewardship is to have a minimally satisfactory user experience: including s few loops, etc.

    no, mountain bikers should not expect to get everything they want, and need to accept when something is a fait accompli. But neither should land managers be surprised when minimalist trail plans generate frustration for a growing population and a very rapidly growing user group.

  97. #497
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    266
    There's a strange mindset we mtbr's have when it comes to trails built illegally on land we don't own.

    When the time comes that the landowner starts to execute his/her goals for said land we scream bloody murder that those evil people are stealing our trails.

    We blame the city, we blame the wildlife agencies, we blame anyone other than ourselves.

    We now have some situations where land with illegal trails is having ownership transferred to city/county/state.

    Whether some or none of those illegal trails will become legalized is directly tied to the perception of mountain bikers impact on environmentally protected lands.

    Put it this way. They are ours to lose.

    We can man up and act responsibly or we can cowboy up and screw over the next generation of riders.

  98. #498
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    213
    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post
    Believe me when I say I appreciate all of the help from guys like you working toward opening the trails. That goes to bankerboy as well and whomever else has worked hard on our behalf.

    As far as my quote much of the confusion has been rectified and access to the open trails is good now and much less confusing.

    It does seem the they are putting mountain bikers in an untenable position especially those going to meetings etc.

    The solution of self police is not a solution at all. Can you imagine the same for drivers? how many infractions do you see on a short trip to the store? Is it the responsibility of each driver to enforce the rules of the road? Furthermore what if you see said driver clearly run a stop sign and you confront them and they become hostile. Is this a wise course of action?

    I am not trying to shoot the messenger but the solution that was forced on looks pretty ridiculous from my view. Self police really? with what authority? With what power? With what agency protection? With what training? with what rules of engagement?

    I am not defending those vandalizing that sucks.

    I am merely pointing out the major flaw. Self governance works for yourself but is not always welcomed by others.
    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    There's a strange mindset we mtbr's have when it comes to trails built illegally on land we don't own.

    When the time comes that the landowner starts to execute his/her goals for said land we scream bloody murder that those evil people are stealing our trails.

    We blame the city, we blame the wildlife agencies, we blame anyone other than ourselves.

    We now have some situations where land with illegal trails is having ownership transferred to city/county/state.

    Whether some or none of those illegal trails will become legalized is directly tied to the perception of mountain bikers impact on environmentally protected lands.

    Put it this way. They are ours to lose.

    We can man up and act responsibly or we can cowboy up and screw over the next generation of riders.
    I get what you are saying and I re-quoted myself not to beleaguer the same points. It is unreasonable to expect all will follow the rules. This fact has been proved in the human race for more than one millennium over the course of history. To create a system and mandate of everyone follows the rules or we will close it fails to recognize basic rules of society ie some of those in society will break rules.

    I am not promoting vandalism or illegal riding merely pointing out the ludicrously of the accepted position. I understand this decision was made with backs against the wall.

    Again I appreciate your help and those that sacrificed so much time to get this done. It is not my shooting the messenger merely pointing out the obvious.

  99. #499
    IPA tester
    Reputation: Dirtrider127's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    841
    You know, It's pretty sad and messed up that we have to use tax payer money and resources to decommission a trail. Isn't there a better use of time and money?

    At least they will have a brand new ranger station soon.......
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

    -Urban Yeti
    Dirttreaders.com

  100. #500
    Beer Please! SuperModerator
    Reputation: Klurejr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    5,080
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    Those tunnel trails show up on aerial maps from 1964 so nobody built them legally or illegally.
    This is what bothers me about trail closures in general. So many of the trails have been around for decades.

    No wildlife is being harmed by the trails being there so long. No species went extinct from it, and the local wildlife use those trails as well.

    the entire situation is odd and sad.
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

    Know these before you post:
    MTBR Posting Rules
    e-bike forum rules

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. LPQ, Tunnels and Del Mar Mesa: Get Involved!
    By EBasil in forum California - Socal
    Replies: 999
    Last Post: 09-08-2015, 08:21 AM
  2. Del Mar Mesa TICKETS!!! $475 Beat in Court
    By Dan M in forum California - Socal
    Replies: 59
    Last Post: 01-17-2014, 02:29 PM
  3. Mesa Liquor - Kearny Mesa
    By Klurejr in forum Beer Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 03-30-2012, 10:54 AM
  4. Lpq / tunnels / del mar mesa - emergency action needed
    By kevmortensen in forum California - Socal
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10-20-2011, 12:41 PM
  5. 6-29-11 Tunnels + BBT......
    By beagledadi in forum Nevada
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-30-2011, 01:14 PM

Members who have read this thread: 3

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •