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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjphillips View Post
    I think it has always been the case that horses are allowed on the trails (long before bikes came onto the scene) as most people "believe" horses are not destructive t the environment but somehow mountain biker (as well as motorcycles) are.

    The wealthy pay their fair share of taxes too. They have as much right to be out on the trails as the next guy whether they ride a horse or a mountain bike.

    I think horses and bikes can co-exist peacefully and not effect the environment. The problem seems to be the illegal trail builders that violate the laws and make all of us (mountain bikers) look bad.
    I don't ride horses but ride bikes and pay plenty of taxes

    Horses are probably more destructive than bikes on the trails

    Check for yourself what horse poop does for streams and watershed

    Horse riders seem the venture off the trail and make their own trails too

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  2. #302
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    I agree with you.

    I was just saying that many people (wrongly) believe horses do not damage the environment. Hence they are almost always allowed to ride on the trails.

    If you go to Daley Ranch these days the trails are pounded into talcum powder by horse hooves. Seems pretty destructive to me.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjphillips View Post
    The problem seems to be the illegal trail builders that violate the laws and make all of us (mountain bikers) look bad.
    That's utterly wrong relative to the trail system we're talking about (Del Mar Mesa and LPQ). Those trails have existed since before 1903; I have a copy of a local geological survey map from that year; most of our favorite trails in LPQ, DMM & McGonigle are on it.

  4. #304
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    Are you saying there is absolutely no illegal trail building going on out there?

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjphillips View Post
    Are you saying there is absolutely no illegal trail building going on out there?
    Of course I can't say that. I can say that I'm not aware of any, not for years anyway. Can you give me an example of a newly-built (say since 2010) illegal trail in that area?

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcadbiker View Post
    Of course I can't say that. I can say that I'm not aware of any, not for years anyway. Can you give me an example of a newly-built (say since 2010) illegal trail in that area?
    The real issue is opening back up the existing trails that are already here today.
    It might be best to stay away from any illegal trail discussions if that is even happening or not. Doesn't help the cause
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  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcadbiker View Post
    Of course I can't say that. I can say that I'm not aware of any, not for years anyway. Can you give me an example of a newly-built (say since 2010) illegal trail in that area?
    I don't live in the area anymore, so I haven't ridden there since 2008. But, if I look at topo maps of the area and compare to trails I've ridden in the past, there are definitely newer ones out there. I suspect some of these trails are not legal.

    But it looks like even the legal ones are getting shutdown and blocked with tree clippings.

  8. #308
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    What really matters is that the lag in mitigation land provided by the developers has forced the radical trail closures today, not environmentalists, (useful idiots, perhaps) not unions, but the deficit of mitigation land that our own elected officials and their bureacratic minions allowed developers to welsh on.

    Now, the piper must be paid, so existing trails not officially designated as such whether or not they have been in existence, in many cases, for decades, or longer, are put on the chopping block.
    Soon to come, if these trails are not reckoned to be enough, are legitimate, officially designated trails, as well. Where it will stop is anybody's guess.

    This is an excellent example of crony capitalism in action.

    As usual, it's the taxpayer who feels the brunt of this. Developers have long since pocketed their profits, and elitist residents of the McMansions lining the DM Mesa preserve get their un-trashed (by the sight of trail users) view.

    Whether or not there are "new" trails in the area is really a moot point, only relevant to the shills and stooges of the uber-wealthy. The main point being that they shall, as in all of San
    Diego history, get their way, regardless of the needs and desires of the majority.

    The rest of us can just go away. America's Finest City has a long history of such shenanigans.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Ray View Post
    What really matters is that the lag in mitigation land provided by the developers has forced the radical trail closures today, not environmentalists, (useful idiots, perhaps) not unions, but the deficit of mitigation land that our own elected officials and their bureacratic minions allowed developers to welsh on.

    Now, the piper must be paid, so existing trails not officially designated as such whether or not they have been in existence, in many cases, for decades, or longer, are put on the chopping block.
    Soon to come, if these trails are not reckoned to be enough, are legitimate, officially designated trails, as well. Where it will stop is anybody's guess.

    This is an excellent example of crony capitalism in action.

    As usual, it's the taxpayer who feels the brunt of this. Developers have long since pocketed their profits, and elitist residents of the McMansions lining the DM Mesa preserve get their un-trashed (by the sight of trail users) view.

    Whether or not there are "new" trails in the area is really a moot point, only relevant to the shills and stooges of the uber-wealthy. The main point being that they shall, as in all of San
    Diego history, get their way, regardless of the needs and desires of the majority.

    The rest of us can just go away. America's Finest City has a long history of such shenanigans.
    So, V, when are you setting up the red dominoes again and blowing up the Old Bailey?! :-)

  10. #310
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    Trail update:

    No update other than the trail habitat specialist organization called "Caltrans" have closed a couple of trails. Where the brush came from that they used is a mystery. Did they cut the environment to protect the environment?
    A connector between T3 & 4 have been closed with brush and fence right on top of the most sensitive plant on the Mesa (and the region). You know, the ones that they have been "protecting" all this time, yea, those plants...
    Parts of the mesa loop trail have been brushed causing the trail to go down a very steep & dangerous fall line trail.
    The current plan for Rhodes Crossing bridge won't have a bridge which closes down the creek flowing through there and no game tunnel.

    So, in other words, they are right on track saving your world for your own good. Now, please pay for taxes on time so they can finish this work. I'm out..
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  11. #311
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    thing about Caltrans is they will do the job they have been asked to do, then they will leave....

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mama View Post
    thing about Caltrans is they will do the job they have been asked to do, then they will leave......a path of destruction behind them..
    Fixed it for you
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  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    Trail update:

    No update other than the trail habitat specialist organization called "Caltrans" have closed a couple of trails. Where the brush came from that they used is a mystery. Did they cut the environment to protect the environment?
    A connector between T3 & 4 have been closed with brush and fence right on top of the most sensitive plant on the Mesa (and the region). You know, the ones that they have been "protecting" all this time, yea, those plants...
    Parts of the mesa loop trail have been brushed causing the trail to go down a very steep & dangerous fall line trail.
    The current plan for Rhodes Crossing bridge won't have a bridge which closes down the creek flowing through there and no game tunnel.

    So, in other words, they are right on track saving your world for your own good. Now, please pay for taxes on time so they can finish this work. I'm out..
    Fits right in there with "Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace!"

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTSO2112 View Post
    So, V, when are you setting up the red dominoes again and blowing up the Old Bailey?! :-)
    As usual, Chief, I don't know what your'e talking about. I doubt if anybody else does, either.
    Do you?

  15. #315
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    I have a question as i have never ridden through the tunnels area... are there any legal tunnels in the mesa? Can someone point me in the right direction?
    i've only ridden to the point of the arrow and turned around because i was limited on time that day and didn't want to go all the way down that long down hill. All i noticed on the ride out there are a lot of signs saying trails were closed so i kept riding the fire road.

    i found the route map on a random website that was posted a long time ago... so thats not my route... but can someone give me guidance?
    Last edited by mrmattjohnson; 12-06-2014 at 08:57 PM.

  16. #316
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    What's the first rule of Fight Club?

    All of the Mesa is closed, except for the fire road. If you want help ask off the boards. Take some beer into one of the local bike shops or something, but don't post maps of closed areas and expect people to help you.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrmattjohnson View Post
    ... but can someone give me guidance?
    Sure, but you're not gonna like the answer. None of us do. But the ONLY legal "trail" on the mesa is the north-south fireroad (see the green-dotted line below). None of the tunnels, none of the singletrack. Everything else is off-limits and you risk getting stopped.

    Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-untitled.jpg

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntro View Post
    What's the first rule of Fight Club?

    All of the Mesa is closed, except for the fire road. If you want help ask off the boards. Take some beer into one of the local bike shops or something, but don't post maps of closed areas and expect people to help you.
    sorry i will take it down, i didn't know if there were open tunnels.

  19. #319
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    thanks chuck... thats a bummer...

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrmattjohnson View Post
    sorry i will take it down, i didn't know if there were open tunnels.
    Any more talk about this from you, as a newbie, and you will have to face the inevitable inquires: are you a Sierra Club snitch? a Shill, a badge-wielding thug, looking to entrap somebody?

    This rule holds true, for ALL of the trails in the San Diego area that are currently under dispute.And as you may be discovering, there are LOTS of them.

    To openly discuss them on public forums is to look for very un-wanted attention. You don't realize it, but you are really trolling and/or stirring the pot when you do so.

    So if you want to know something, figure out how to enquire, DISCRETELY.

  21. #321
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    i reported my post to be taken down earlier, didn't realize i was going to cause such conflict. and no i am a regular guy who just got back into riding....

  22. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrmattjohnson View Post
    i reported my post to be taken down earlier, didn't realize i was going to cause such conflict. and no i am a regular guy who just got back into riding....
    If you had done just a little bit of research, like reading the 13 previous pages of the thread you posted on, the "rules" would have become obvious. Sorry you got flamed but this issue has been a saddle sore in the taint of San Diego MTB'ing for more than five years and, to be honest, we're all pretty much done with it. There are no rideable "tunnels", Del Mar Mesa is off limits and the building work at Rhodes Crossing has already begun so there won't be anything left out there two years from now anyway.

  23. #323
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    sweet i figured out how to remove the image... sorry guys

  24. #324
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    I don't think the image mrmatt posted is any big deal. Just about anyone with any knowledge of the area knows those trails are there. I reposted the image showing what IS open (just the main fireroad) and I don't plan to take it down. It's informative to those who might be new to the area - showing what is and isn't open, and some of what's been lost.

    Sorry, mrmatt, that you got a bit of scolding over a fairly innocent question. But a lot of people feel we as a mtn biking community got pretty screwed over by the whole deal and the whole topic can get kind of sensitive.

    Stay tuned, as there is a trails plan slowly working it's way through the bureaucratic red tape. Hopefully we'll get at least some of those trails back, someday...

  25. #325
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    I saw an unmarked white F250 with Nevada plates outside the gate to the tunnels this morning. It might be a private fencing contractor as it looks like some new wooden fencing has been erected along the fire road.

    Looks like they are planning on stepping up enforcement again once they get their signs and fences in place and the City Council finally votes on the trail plan. Overtime police officers and Fish and Wildlife wardens are supposed to be enforcing the new plan. YOUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK!!!

    There's an article in this week's local paper. Looks like some trails will remain open, but I don't know which from the article. The article doesn't appear to be online at the Carmel Valley News website, otherwise I'd provide a link. There will not be an East-West connector. Expect enforcement to ramp up soon. I'm not sure whether to call Sherri Lightner's office in support or opposition to this plan, as it appears to have some support form the biking community, but it's unclear what it being taken away.

  26. #326
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    Any chance you can scan that article and post it up?
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

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  27. #327
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    The city approved trails plan is buried deep within this thread. I will find it and post it up again.

    The only trails that the city is in the process of approving (read NOT OPEN YET) are Tunnels ONE and FOUR, the west side rim trail (except the part at the top of T5 due to vernal pools), a little known portion of the rim trail to the north of the existing rim trail, and the switchbacks down into the valley. Everything else (T2, T3, T5, East Rim trail, Sidewinder ) is not officially recognized or sanctioned.

    Stay out of the CDFW land. You will not be a happy camper if you get caught. There is a dedicated group of riders working hard to encourage CDFW to allow access for the much needed E/W connector There is verbiage that allows it in their own documents and there are ears within the agency that are beginning to listen. We keep shooting ourselves in the foot every time somebody is cited for trespassing on that land and it isn't helping.

    ***EDIT***

    Found it (sort of)

    BLUE - Tunnel trail approved by city
    RED - Rim trail, also approved by the city
    ORANGE - SDGE fire road, er, trail
    GREEN - Existing mesa DG path around "The Preserve" housing community lol
    LIGHT BLUE - Darkwood connector and trail system - connector to mesa (Rhodes Crossing) is approved and will be built at a later date.
    Last edited by bankerboy; 04-02-2015 at 03:15 PM.
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  28. #328
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    Fencing recently repaired in T2, along with a few new yellow signs. Ironically it's a stones throw away from the bulldozers that are building a shopping center and extending the road through the "sensitive habitat". Apparently the smell of money causes the fairy shrimp and endangered plants to migrate to other parts of the park, so it's okay. There was a large pile of rocks in T2 before the fence, around a turn and hard to see, they aren't there anymore but keep your eyes out for trail sabotage.

  29. #329
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    The Merge 56 and Rhodes Crossing have been on paper since the early 2000s. It is a known fact that the land has been slated for development and has been green lighted the entire time. At that time, the Del Mar Mesa Preserve was set aside as mitigation land for open space. It was not pristine. It was only looked at as areas that could not be developed. Problem was, it was set up only as a preserve. The fact that nobody has ever researched it is amusing to me. And yes, a stones throw away is the huge development and they are going to make a crap-load of money. Rest assured, there are clear lines drawn and the Del Mar Mesa is safe.

    We have seen this time and time again. When a community plan is put together, the open spaces were outlined but viewed only as preserve with no thought ever given to recreation. When we all went to the planning board, we asked that all future areas that are set aside are not only for preserve but allow for recreation. Based on the vote, it sounds like we are getting through.

    Now, the problem with the DMM is there is a ridiculous patchwork of property (City, county, state, US, and private). Everybody has their own set of rules to abide by and none are the same. Hence the issues of the CDFW land. They are very hesitant to allow access because of their rules. As I said above, their doctrines do allow for access but under a very narrow scope. It is possible for bike access. So for now, T3 (rocking horse) and T2 (hole in the fence) are not included in the plan. With some diligence and perseverance, it is realistic to believe we can get some of that back legally.

    The only legal trails, once they are opened back up, are as listed above. I know there is a large sense of entitlement of the original trails and a huge distrust of the system. It has taken nearly 8 years to get to this point. Now we have a city that recognizes trails in an area that was set up solely for preservation. We are making headway. It wasn't that long ago that nobody believed any of the trails would ever be legal again. I am glad we were able to prove them wrong. For now, all trail users really need to stay out of the closed areas to make retrieving them easier at the CDFW level.

    [Soap Box]San Diego is rapidly filling in its undeveloped land. If we are not proactive in establishing open spaces that allow recreation, that great little trail you have been riding for 10 years will be illegal because it becomes the last bastion for the endangered (insert name here). Then we will all be funneled into the few areas that are legal. Can't wait to see freeway meter lights at the trail heads to keep traffic moving. We cannot stop growth. We need to work with the city to help them recognize that trails are an important part of the quality of life equation. It is the responsible use that will help preserve the habitat. A solid trail system has been proven to keep the habitat safe.[/Soap Box]
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  30. #330
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    Thanks again for your work!

    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to bankerboy again.

  31. #331
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    Extremely well said Bankerboy. Thanks for all your effort.

  32. #332
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    I emailed the paper and they decided to post it. Here's a link:

    Del Mar Mesa management plan moves closer to reopening trails | Del Mar Times

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    Food for thought, smoking pot is legal but a nice healthy trail is closed how weird is that?

  34. #334
    Its only 1" on the map!
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    Would someone please post a picture of an issued ticket out there?

  35. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Found it (sort of)

    BLUE - Tunnel trail approved by city
    RED - Rim trail, also approved by the city
    ORANGE - SDGE fire road, er, trail
    GREEN - Existing mesa DG path around "The Preserve" housing community lol
    LIGHT BLUE - Darkwood connector and trail system - connector to mesa (Rhodes Crossing) is approved and will be built at a later date.
    bb, is there a larger version of this map? It's hard to distiguish, even with the descriptions. I, personally, would be happy with T1 and T4. But who owns T5 and is not allowing access?

  36. #336
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    I did find this:
    http://www.sandiego.gov/planning-com...15/pc15037.pdf

    Project-Related Issues:
    The NRMP and associated trail system were developed with input from community stakeholders including the San Diego Mountain Biking Association (SDMBA), Multi-Use Trails Coalition, Chaparral Lands Conservancy, Los Peñasquitos Citizens’ Advisory ommittee, and the Carmel Valley, Del Mar Mesa and Rancho Penasquitos Community Planning Community Planning Boards. Park and Recreation staff’s goal in the development of the trails plan has been to facilitate as many trails as possible while remaining consistent with the MSCP. The NRMP contains a proposal to revise the existing trail system on 1) Carmel Mountain through allowing 4.13 miles of trails and 2) Del Mar Mesa through allowing of 6.84 miles of trails for a total of 7.9 miles while closing 13.29 miles of existing paths (Attachment 3).

    However, there is public controversy largely centered around the lack of a proposal for a trail segment providing an east-west connection across the flatter mesa top between Del Mar Mesa and the Rancho Penasquitos community. This segment is desired by each of the three affected Planning Boards as well as the SDMBA (Attachment 6). Due to the fact that a significant portion of the east-west trail is located on state property, Park and Recreation staff submitted multiple requests to the state for inclusion of the desired trail segment. The property in question was purchased by Caltrans in the 1990s to fulfill mitigation obligation for freeway construction, and is owned and managed by the California Department of Fish and Wildlife (CDFW) as a State Ecological Reserve. Bicycles are not allowed on ecological reserves per state statute; therefore, an amendment to the Fish and Game Code would be required to allow the east-west trail segment. CDFW has declined to allow access or even planned alignments at this time. However, the NRMP includes language that allows new trails to be added to the plan administratively with the concurrence of all three agencies, and recognizes the state and federal agencies' ability to add trails to their land without City approval (Attachment 4, Section 9.3, Nature Trails).

    The draft amendment to the Del Mar Mesa Specific Plan also includes additional text (Section ll.b) to allow future consideration of an east-west trail connection (Attachment 5). This text addition can be interpreted to allow consideration of a future trail proposal without a requirement to amend the specific plan.

    Conclusion:
    Staff has reviewed the Natural Resources Management Plan for the Carmel Mountain and Del Mar Mesa open space preserves, including the proposed trail system and associated community plan amendments. Staff has determined that the proposal is in conformance with the General Plan, the affected community plans and the MSCP Subarea Plan.

  37. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbill View Post
    Would someone please post a picture of an issued ticket out there?
    I'll have to see if I can dig mine up. It was about 3 years ago, so who knows where it went.

  38. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbill View Post
    Would someone please post a picture of an issued ticket out there?
    There was a "wild life study" (cough,cough) done where they monitored activity before the enforcement, during, and after (it's over now). I did attend the meeting where they discussed the findings and some photos. CDFW were actively out there doing "enforcement" but I haven't heard about or seen them in over a year since the one-time grant money has expired.

    The local rangers might go up there at times and can enforce the trespassing but once again. I haven't seen them up there either.

    With all that being said, it's still off limits, they still can enforce the area, the trail plan is moving forward, and riding this area in plain view at this time might not help the cause.

    To answer you question finally, I think the tickets are like Big Foot sightings. There might be someone out there that has one but it's mostly been "some guy or a friend" that received the award..
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  39. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferdball View Post
    bb, is there a larger version of this map? It's hard to distiguish, even with the descriptions. I, personally, would be happy with T1 and T4. But who owns T5 and is not allowing access?
    Here is a clearer/larger version Robo made years ago. Just click on it to enlarge the picture.

    Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-dmmp-citytrailplan-10-11.jpg

    If I remember correctly, T5 passes through some US Fish and Wildlife land and one or two private parcels. As stupid hard as it is to talk the California Fish and Wildlife, imagine it on a federal level and another 3000 miles.
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  40. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Here is a clearer/larger version Robo made years ago. Just click on it to enlarge the picture.
    Follow-up question: What's the expected timeframe for T1/T4 approval?

  41. #341
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    Undetermined.

    It has to go before the city council for approval and then on the mayor for ratification. It is mostly procedural since all of the necessary studies and approvals have been completed. I am hounding Chris Zirkle regularly to see if he knows of dates. As soon as I know, I will post it up.

    If I was to take a guess, end of summer or early fall. The wheels turn, just that they turn damn slow.
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    At least the wheels are turning. Better than standing still.

  43. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbill View Post
    Would someone please post a picture of an issued ticket out there?
    Ask and ye shall receive!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferdball View Post
    Follow-up question: What's the expected timeframe for T1/T4 approval?
    About five years given the history. BTW, has anyone noticed the signs hung on the fence surrounding the Rhodes Crossing construction site? "Keep out. Habitat restoration in process"; I pass them every day on my (legal) commute route. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

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    Hah! It must be the habitat for capitalism and consumerism that is being restored!

    Is there a legal route or easement going through there?

  46. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by scepticshock View Post
    Hah! It must be the habitat for capitalism and consumerism that is being restored!

    Is there a legal route or easement going through there?
    Yes, you can get from Carmel Mtn Rd/56 to Park Village on dirt. There's an earth berm at the end of CMR, south of 56, ride up it and keep going south. When you get to a split in the trail head left, follow the singletrack for a couple hundred yards and it drops out onto Dormouse in Park Village.

  47. #347
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    That route does work for now but once the construction really gets going over there, the route will be eliminated under the guise of progress. Camino del Sur and Carmel Mountain Rd will connect and push all the way down to Park Village giving a secondary paved exit for all the homes in Park Village. I guess the plus is road riding access.....

    Another permanent option at the intersection of Sundance and CMR, just north of the 56, head east on Sundance. In 3 blocks is the Darkwood canyon. It is the canyon that runs along side of Park Village Ele. It is all dirt, and under no threat of development and is part of the trail system. It is the canyon that is going to eventually have a connector up to the mesa where sdcadbikers route is listed but that probably won't happen until the majority of the construction is done.
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    Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-test.jpg

  49. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcadbiker View Post
    Yes, you can get from Carmel Mtn Rd/56 to Park Village on dirt. There's an earth berm at the end of CMR, south of 56, ride up it and keep going south. When you get to a split in the trail head left, follow the singletrack for a couple hundred yards and it drops out onto Dormouse in Park Village.
    Thanks for the route info. What if you go right? How close does this construction get to edge of the preserve? Who owns the dirt road that runs along the edge of the preserve?

    Good to know about the Darkwood Canyon trail. I never really explored it. I think I have seen it when driving along the 56, and always wondered how to get on it.

  50. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Here is a clearer/larger version Robo made years ago. Just click on it to enlarge the picture.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Question for those in the know: That maps shows no differentiation between trails with any user restrictions (like "no bikes"). For instance, I believe Queen's Trail (by the Duck Pond) is/was a "no bikes" trail but that's not called out on the map. Does user-type designation yet exist for the new plan? Thanks in advance.

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    You are right. Sorry about that. The map only calls out approved city trails and not use/restrictions. For example, in the bottom right of the map you can see the stream side trails that are expressly off limits to bikes except in one spot.

    For the DMM preserve trails, there are no bike restrictions. As a matter of fact, they will be listed as only hiker/biker trails because of the low tree canopy. It is not conducive to equestrian use. I don't remember if it was in the MND or not, but I have seen it in writing. I will search around and see if I can find it.
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  52. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by scepticshock View Post
    Thanks for the route info. What if you go right? How close does this construction get to edge of the preserve? Who owns the dirt road that runs along the edge of the preserve?

    Good to know about the Darkwood Canyon trail. I never really explored it. I think I have seen it when driving along the 56, and always wondered how to get on it.
    Darkwood is OK as an evening route but in the morning the city douses the area under the bridge with a lot of water; this in itself isn't a big deal but the trail is very off-camber in places and if you come shooting along at strava$$hole pace through the mud it's quite possible for your front tire to go places that you really don't want it to.
    Someone put a couple planks down in the most horrible places and took care of a decaying edge too (moochas grass senor!) but you still have to take it a little slow if it's wet.

    Bankerboy is right that eventually this will be the only option to get from PQ to Park Village on dirt.

  53. #353
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    I did see the ranger truck cruising around up on the roads on the mesa along the fences the other day. Probably to show a presence.

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    Tunnel 5 has now been closed. I'll post pics later. Someone should tell Parks and Rec that there contractors would probably do a fantastic job building trails, rather than tearing up and relocating deadfall.

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    Last edited by Huntro; 04-22-2015 at 06:42 PM.

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    I realize this is of little consequence but it is a step closer to opening the area to the city approved trails. They have to complete the closures of the non recognized trails before they can open the officially sanctioned ones.

    Half step back for one forward. Give it some time.
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  57. #357
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    Absurd to throw tinder and deadfall all over a perfectly good trail (not to mention the increased risk of fires).

  58. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by scepticshock View Post
    Absurd to throw tinder and deadfall all over a perfectly good trail (not to mention the increased risk of fires).
    It is also absurd to close trails in the name of Habitat restoration and then sell that very land to developers to build homes on.... But that has happened in this case as well.....
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  59. #359
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    Were Rocking Horse and Shoes approved or are those going to be next to go?

  60. #360
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    From Ranger Washington this morning

    Good Morning,

    I wanted to dispel some rumors that I have heard. The only trail in Del Mar Mesa Preserve that is open and legal to ride is still the north/south fire road. Unfortunately there are still a few persistent vandals that remove our “trail closed” signs; so the best way to tell if the trail you want to ride is legal is by 1) check the kiosk map at the trail head 2) all legal trails have a signs indicating that it is a trail. They are generally brown with white writing and will either say “Trail” with an arrow or have the symbol of the mode of transport that you are using.

    We still have to take our Natural Resource Management Plan to two more meetings before final approval, which will include the Del Mar Mesa trail plan. I will let you know when those meetings are happening, as soon as I find out. Believe me, there will be no doubt as to when the trails in Del Mar Mesa are officially open.

    In the mean-time my staff and I are working to get the trails in Del Mar Mesa Preserve ready to open once we get final approval. We really appreciate your continued support by staying out of the closed areas. This makes it easier for us to complete our work, not having to stop and look out for unauthorized trail users and then go through the schpeel that is all too familiar to all of us. ;-)

    I will keep you posted!

    Gina Washington
    Senior Park Ranger
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    Park & Recreation Department
    202 C. Street Fifth Floor MS 5D
    San Diego, CA 92101
    858.538.8066 PH
    858.536.8334 FAX
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  61. #361
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    "Getting the trails ready." Does that mean getting the gravel and grading equipment ready?

    They really like to use that word "trail" and "fire road" interchangeably, as if they were about the same.

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    What a load of crap. Ride em while you got em

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    Quote Originally Posted by scepticshock View Post
    "Getting the trails ready." Does that mean getting the gravel and grading equipment ready?
    I think that means fueling up the D9 Cats and gassing up the post hole diggers

    Gotta make it look good for the new homes and roads
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuppie View Post
    What a load of crap. Ride em while you got em
    ^^^^^ Wise man right there
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  65. #365
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    Wow, you guys must be stoked! those trails you have been riding for 10+ years are finally going to be made "ready" for you. Hard to believe you have been able to navigate them safely up until now.
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    I told my 5 year that tunnels is closed forever (note he has ridden everything in SD many times)

    His answer: "why so they can build stupid houses " pause "they should build trails not more houses"

    full Bulls hit that in five years the all trails in SD will be faint memories.

  67. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    From Ranger Washington this morning

    Good Morning,

    I wanted to dispel some rumors that I have heard. The only trail in Del Mar Mesa Preserve that is open and legal to ride is still the north/south fire road. Unfortunately there are still a few persistent vandals that remove our “trail closed” signs; so the best way to tell if the trail you want to ride is legal is by 1) check the kiosk map at the trail head 2) all legal trails have a signs indicating that it is a trail. They are generally brown with white writing and will either say “Trail” with an arrow or have the symbol of the mode of transport that you are using.


    Gina Washington
    Senior Park Ranger
    City of San Diego
    Park & Recreation Department
    202 C. Street Fifth Floor MS 5D
    San Diego, CA 92101
    858.538.8066 PH
    858.536.8334 FAX
    T1 is posted with trail signage, but the brushing and fence closures of trails have started.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stuppie View Post
    What a load of crap. Ride em while you got em

    Exactly! Anytime a government agency takes something away from the people it's almost a certainty it will not be given back. Ride'em!!!!!

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    The closure of Tunnel 5 is official and marked. Unfortunately it is being continually vandalized and new brush is being cut by an entitled few. Don't be that person. Please stop tearing down and circumventing the fencing and markings. It is causing far more trouble than riders know in other areas outside of PQ. US Fish and Wildlife (not CA) is now involved. Lots of alternatives exist. It will lead to more law enforcement and heavy handedness in the future if it continues. I am working with the Ranger staff to get some signage up on the mesa at the trailhead kiosks to help delineate what is happening. Riding will be legal up there again as early as the July/August but it is dependant upon City Council and Mayoral approval. The plan has already been blessed by the city planning board. We are on our way.

    So, here is the approved plan again.

    The only trails that the city is in the process of approving (read NOT OPEN YET) are Tunnels ONE and FOUR, the west side rim trail (except the part at the top of T5 due to vernal pools), a little known portion of the rim trail to the north of the existing rim trail, and the switchbacks down into the valley. Everything else (T2, T3, T5, East Rim trail, Sidewinder ) is not officially recognized or sanctioned.

    Stay out of the CDFW land. You will not be a happy camper if you get caught. There is a dedicated group of riders working hard to encourage CDFW to allow access for the much needed E/W connector There is verbiage that allows it in their own documents and there are ears within the agency that are beginning to listen. We keep shooting ourselves in the foot every time somebody is cited for trespassing on that land and it isn't helping.

    BLUE - Tunnel trail approved by city
    RED - Rim trail, also approved by the city
    ORANGE - SDGE fire road, er, trail
    GREEN - Existing mesa DG path around "The Preserve" housing community lol
    LIGHT BLUE - Darkwood connector and trail system - connector to mesa (Rhodes Crossing) is approved and will be built at a later date.
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    Thanks for the updates, B.B.

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    Such a shame.

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    I understand something is better than nothing. I was finally able to make it out there for my weekly night ride after altering between spring and sycamore and boy what a pain in the ass. Had to reloop alot of portions to get the normal miles in because of the new fences. What was easily pieced together for a good amount of riding has been sectioned off to mindnumbing repeats. As Joe Mama said, such a shame.

    If it could all go back to "how it was", people in power looking the other way while it was practically self policed, that would be grand. All good things must come to an end, I know this, and I appreciate all the hard effort put in to save what can be saved...It just plain sucks though.

    From what I've heard, the new "standby", is now going to be in the ears of the city council over in santee.....I really feel sorry for the builders out there, all of this time spent getting those trails dialed over these years could be erased with one signature. The madness...

  73. #373
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    Although a certain clueless segment of riders are obviously to blame for this, I can't help wondering that the timing of this relates it to the closing of trails in PQ, and MT. This has put increasing pressure on the Santee area eluded to. I'm sure people were probably riding there quietly for years without attracting to much attention.

    I'm not sure what kind of appealing loops can be made of what legal parts of the Tunnels we end up with. In MT The closing of Teote at the end of Deer Dancer kind of killed a very popular route, and left a trail that really doesn't go anywhere. This will cause over use in the few remaining good areas.

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    Don't be so absolutely positive that only MTB riders are messing with all the types of closures out there or anywhere else either Not that I also wouldn't think like that but I have seen horse poop all over those trails for years including the past couple of days. From up on that ridge looking into that empty valley that makes me sick just thinking about it, I have seen equestrians, trail runners, hikers and others all over there too, some looking at the fences. Yes, the newest fences and brush closures. Nowhere near them was a bike of any kind to be found. I am not saying that they are to blame BUT isn't that how this whole mess started back in 2008? After all, if the trails are closed to MTB'ers, life will be better for them in most of their eyes. they will continue to use the trails as they always have...

    MTB riders in many aspects are their own worst enemy's but are also the most active user group as far as getting trail access opened up, building and maintaining trails, and trying to get along with all trail users.

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    I'd rather ride fun illegal trails and risk being ticketed, than crappy legal "trails" that are flat and wide. Obviously I'm not alone. Until they start legalizing the fun and sustainable trails we already have (or had), or start building new ones that are equally fun, this is always going to be a problem. The average rider at PQ is probably 40 years old with 2 kids and owns a home nearby. You wouldn't think busting the locals for riding a bike on a dirt path would be such a priority but I guess they have solved all the other problems in the city...

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    I think we have already lost the battle.

    The unions and environmentalists have already won. Either we get a bunch of new housing developments paved over the existing trail systems, or we get preserves created that no one can touch.

    In either case we lose!

    This will lead to lots of illegal trail building and archipelago trail systems with folks connecting through backyards and golf courses.

  77. #377
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    Here are a few maps of the on-goings to the immediate south of the gas station at Camino Del Sur. All of that land is slated for development. Hopefully this gives some insight into the big pile of dirt everyone sees off of 56.

    First, you need to know that Camino del Sur will be extended over to the mesa, connecting with Carmel Mounain Road and will ultimately meet up with Park Village down in PQ. This is not a new plan. It has been around for nearly 20 years.

    The Camino del Sur land fill bridge (looking from the north/west, gas station off screen at bottom left) will create the eastern end of Tunnel One. The blue is the road bed and the red is the fill slope. From there an easment (yellow line) will be made to get the trail up to the mesa and eventually over to Darkwood Canyon.



    The Camino del Sur extention will roughly align with the current cobble climb out of tunnnel one. That is the ultimate western boundary of the Merge 56/Rhodes Crossing developemnt. They cannot build further west as that is US Fish and Wildlife land. You want to talk headaches? Have a developer piss off the feds. So DMM is and will remain safe.

    Here is one version of the planned development. It has seen many iterations but all fall within the same boundaries. You can clearly see the DMM boundary on the west (right) side of the map. The only parcel still up in the air is the small block that juts into the preserve. This is church land that is currently up for sale. There is hope it is bought and added to the preserve. There are no plan for it right now.



    Rhodes/Merge 56 will be going on for multiple years so don't expect the connector over to Darkwood Canyon anytime soon. As of right now there is no development but that is only temporary. As soon as the permits are complete, you can expect some serious dirt moving and the access from Camino del Sur and Carmel Mountain to be completely curtailed for a while.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    From Ranger Washington this morning

    Good Morning,

    I wanted to dispel some rumors that I have heard. The only trail in Del Mar Mesa Preserve that is open and legal to ride is still the north/south fire road. Unfortunately there are still a few persistent vandals that remove our “trail closed” signs; so the best way to tell if the trail you want to ride is legal is by 1) check the kiosk map at the trail head 2) all legal trails have a signs indicating that it is a trail. They are generally brown with white writing and will either say “Trail” with an arrow or have the symbol of the mode of transport that you are using.

    We still have to take our Natural Resource Management Plan to two more meetings before final approval, which will include the Del Mar Mesa trail plan. I will let you know when those meetings are happening, as soon as I find out. Believe me, there will be no doubt as to when the trails in Del Mar Mesa are officially open.

    In the mean-time my staff and I are working to get the trails in Del Mar Mesa Preserve ready to open once we get final approval. We really appreciate your continued support by staying out of the closed areas. This makes it easier for us to complete our work, not having to stop and look out for unauthorized trail users and then go through the schpeel that is all too familiar to all of us. ;-)

    I will keep you posted!

    Gina Washington
    Senior Park Ranger
    City of San Diego
    Park & Recreation Department
    202 C. Street Fifth Floor MS 5D
    San Diego, CA 92101
    858.538.8066 PH
    858.536.8334 FAX

    hahahahahahahahahaha What a bunch BS!!!!!!!!! If it comes from a politician or a gov't worker you can bet its a lie!!!!!

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    I saw a white truck out there today and avoided at all costs. Is that fish and game?

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    Did the white truck look like this?
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    Better info than mine from Rodster on Dirttreaders:

    Referring to the map above. Note on upper left a square on west side off Camino Del Sur. That is land owned by the Catholic Diocese. They were at one time going to put a church/Sunday School there but have no plans to do so currently and it's for sale. Interestingly, it's NOT MHPA land despite having the same exact sensitive habit as Del Mar Mesa Preserve that it is bordered by on 3 sides. Not only that, the city council district lines are drawn following the joggle so unlike the preserve which is in Sherri Lightner's district, it's in Mark Kersey's district. It also falls within the Torrey Highlands planning area as opposed to Del Mar Mesa.

    About a year ago Kilroy (the One Paseo folks) was looking to buy the land and get in rezoned industrial.

    That deal went south and the land is still for sale but there's no hint of a buyer.

    There are people that hold hope that it gets reclassified MHPA and sells as banked mitigation land/gets added to DMM Preserve. As the land is worth 10x more as non-MHPA land, such a deal is not likely. It will eventually sell and some sort of non-residential development will get built on it.

    Since the Diocese property is in limbo, the reroute of Tunnel 1 has very limited potential for placement. In the rendering I'd made to show Camino Del Sur and the fill footprint (also above) the routing of T-1 as shown there is the better of two proposals. It actually crosses the corner of the Diocese property but as it sits within the footprint of the fill for Camino Del Sur, the easement for the road prevails. It stretches the limit of the city's standard for gradient on new trails.

    The alternative is a switchback trail up the fill embankment. As a seat on the Planning Board I have the plans for both but cannot share them. The route shown above is the better of the two.

    From the top of T-1 where it makes Camino Del Sur there will be a 5ft wide DG trail adjacent to the road heading south to the intersection of Carmel Mountain Road. At Carmel Mountain Road the DG trail then continues further south but on the east side rather than west side of Camino Del Sur. In the map above about 3/4 down the pic there will be a new singletrack coming off Camino Del Sur that drops into Darkwood Canyon.

    Initially the DG trail alongside Camino Del Sur only connected T-1 to the Darkwood trail. The latest plans now show the DG trail continuing south to the Park Village neighborhood. This addition really holds no interest to us mountain bikers but was added at my request so that kids commuting by bike from Park Village to the middle and or high school don't have to ride in the striped bike lane where they have zero protection from a late for work, texting soccer mom. The developer saw the same value in terms of kids safety and despite accruing cost for plan changes and the construction costs at time the road goes in, made the change right away.

    The dirt pile Mike shows a pic of is dirt removed from the K-B homes (Rhodes Crossing) development going in. Merge 56 has a permit for dirt to be stored on their land - that's likely the that will go in the canyon for the road extension.

    Mashup I made:

    Blue are the new roads that will go in.
    Yellow is existing trails (Darkwood Canyon on right, Tunnel 1 at top left.
    Red is new trail to be built (the end of T1, and connector into Darkwood)
    Pink is the DG trail alongside Camino Del Sur
    I also identified the CDFW fenced Vernal Pool Reserve, the US Fish & Wildlife refuge north of it, and the Catholic Diocese Property

    Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-rhodescrossing_zpsldtbopqy.jpg


    OK west side of the preserve. That's not in the boundaries of the PQ planning board that I sit on but I know the deal. It's Pacific Highlands Ranch. The housing development is a Pardee project. There's a project (don't have the official designation handy at my finger tips this minute) to build trails that link Gonzales Canyon to McGonigle Canyon. Some have already been built (the community trail from east end of Gonzales Canyon Open Space to Rancho Santa Fe Road).

    Unfortunately the ones going in that new neighborhood (they'll connect to mcGonigle at the stream crossing by bottom the Gut Wrencher climb) are PAVED. Yes, on three altogether now let's let out a collective groan. Basically they are sidewalks designated as trails so that legally you can ride your bike on the sidewalk. Not stellar by any stretch but at least the connection from PQ, Tunnels, Black Mountain, Lake Hodges etc to Gonzales (which gets you to Del Mar Racetrack and the beach) will still be able to be made.
    Last edited by bankerboy; 06-08-2015 at 08:17 AM.
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    It is the fence at sidewinder that really baffles me. It was my belief obviously false that is was open and a gateway to McGonigle. It is not like it is a tunnel and there was no fence crossing to get there. A wide established trail in the open. What is the logic there?

    I think it is lost on many what a putrid and huge encampment that was once there in the tunnels area. It was like a small town in a separate third world country.

    Riding a sidewalks a recipe for disaster. A few pedestrians are so unyielding which is odd there is no coexistence. As a child I learned not to use the sidewalk as it is more unsafe than the street.

    Vernal pools are a card thrown out now and again to restrict access to a bicycle but are plowed over on a regular basis in the name of progress to build parking lots. A strange yet consistent double standard.

    I am glad to see some progress made locally the trail from the miners loop is wonderful.

    But militant fence building and grabbing dead brush during fire season and blocking trails is over the top. I fail to see how it is protecting anything. But building homes right in a once so sensitive environmentally an area it needed to be fenced off from evil mountain bikers makes sense.

  83. #383
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    Just the messenger...

    While the path is wide and extablised, it was not to be. Sidewinder uses the same egress as the bottom of tunnel 5. That puts it in the middle of the wildlife corridor and unusable by USFW and CDFW standards. Also, the bottom is all private property and the land owner has made it very clear that while they will allow minimal access via the switchbacks, it came at the cost of closing off the access. The fence at the bottom is at the edge of the property. The fence at the top is to keep trail users out so they don't wind up at the bottom of the hill and climbing the fence into private property.

    I loved that trail because of the roller coaster turn. But it is officially closed and off limits. Please observe and respect the closures.

    The trails plan is off to the city council on June 16 as a docet vote. Once that happens, they can officially vote on it at a later date (early July) and then send to off to the mayors office for ratification. The wheels turn slowly but they are turning.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  84. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Just the messenger...

    While the path is wide and extablised, it was not to be. Sidewinder uses the same egress as the bottom of tunnel 5. That puts it in the middle of the wildlife corridor and unusable by USFW and CDFW standards. Also, the bottom is all private property and the land owner has made it very clear that while they will allow minimal access via the switchbacks, it came at the cost of closing off the access. The fence at the bottom is at the edge of the property. The fence at the top is to keep trail users out so they don't wind up at the bottom of the hill and climbing the fence into private property.

    I loved that trail because of the roller coaster turn. But it is officially closed and off limits. Please observe and respect the closures.

    The trails plan is off to the city council on June 16 as a docet vote. Once that happens, they can officially vote on it at a later date (early July) and then send to off to the mayors office for ratification. The wheels turn slowly but they are turning.
    Thanks I have found your answers informative even if I do not like what I hear. The messenger is safe. I am in PQ and would be willing to help support your efforts. Been to a RPTC meeting or two in the past

  85. #385
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    Carmel Mountain-Del Mar Mesa Natural Resources Management Plan and Trail System - City Council Hearing

    Monday, June 22, 2:00 pm
    202 C Street
    San Diego, CA 92101

    It has been 7+ years since this all began. I am glad to see it move forward. The trails plan goes before the city council. I do not anticipate opposition but it is good to have people in support.

    Right now, I am scheduled for a class and may not be able to attend. Even if you are not comfortable speaking before a large group, any physical support you can bring would be appreciated. Please be respectful as the council is most likely voting in favor of trail access. We are on the cusp of getting the Del Mar Mesa legal access to trail users.

    If you cannot attend in person, you can always send in your support via email or fax

    email: Hearings1@sandiego.gov
    fax: (619) 533-4045

    All communications will be forwarded to the Mayor and City Council
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  86. #386
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    Why on earth do they hold these meetings at 2 in the afternoon when MOST people are at work?

    No wonder government is broken.
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  87. #387
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    I don't know...

    Maybe because like us they have work hours? At least the meeting is happening
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  88. #388
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    FYI, I just got word the June 22 is the procedural meeting and will not be much excitement or time well spent. It looks like they want to aim for July 14th, still at 2:00 pm.

    As I find out more, I will post it.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  89. #389
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    Not that I'm going to be riding any time soon, but is this new news? All I want is T1 and T4.

    Del Mar Mesa Announcement

    The Del Mar Mesa Preserve NRMP (Natural Resource Management Plan) is scheduled for review by city council on July 14th and in all likelihood will be approved. This plan has been quite controversial and long in the making. As the city's open space parks exist with the primary (but not exclusive) goal of habitat preservation, the public's desire for trail access comes into direct conflict with wildlife agencies idealized vision of undisturbed, human free, wilderness.

    The effect of human presence near wildlife is well studied. Trail corridors carry with them edge effects (dependent upon terrain, density of foliage, trail use type) that impact wildlife range and migratory habits. Key requirements within the management plan were to secure a “core habitat zone” and an unimpeded migratory corridor. As CDFW and USFW both own sections of the Preserve the obvious solution was to include their parcels into the core zone. Studies performed by the San Diego Tracking Team established the preferred migratory corridor. With those “human free” aspects secured the trails plan could then be established within the rest of the preserve.

    In anticipation of city council approval, city staff has been preparing for the opening of the park by actively fencing off and brushing the trails that are NOT included in the trails plan. SDMBA asks that all riders cooperate with the ranger staff and not vandalize fencing and signage that is being erected.

    The final product therefore is a compromise that neither hard line side particularly likes. As most riders are aware, there is a large network of social trails that have long existed. We also know that had the mountain biking community not rallied back in 2008, none of these social trails would have been included into the management plan. That accomplishment should never be forgotten despite the cumulative disappointment that the huge investment in advocacy hours did not garner a more comprehensive trails network than is to be provided.

    We must all acknowledge that the process for plan creation did include the input and influence of all stakeholders and that the trails plan as it is to be released is the official trails plan. Efforts do continue with regard to the missing east-west connection across the mesa. All community planning boards with purview of the NRMP (Del Mar Mesa, Carmel Valley, Rancho Penasquitos) all agree that this connection is required. It's inclusion within the NRMP language allows its addition at a future date without amendments to either the NRMP or Del Mar Mesa Community Plan.

  90. #390
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    Getting closer. Still waiting on the official recognition by City Hall and the Mayor.

    I promise you got your wish. Once you are better, you should be able to ride it legally.
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  91. #391
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    While riding the main trail on Del Mar Mesa the other day I noticed a new sign. It was right across the main trail from
    the gate leading to the eucalyptus trees. It said trail with a arrow pointing down a single track trail. I don't understand
    why they put this up if we aren't suppose to ride anything but the main trail. Anyone know whats up with this?

  92. #392
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    As part of the preparation for the trails plan, tunnel 5 and the connector were closed off since they crossed through vernal pools and private property. There is peeler fencing all along the old entrance. Part of the accommodation was to pre sign the trail since it is part of the approved plan. It was done in part to help stymie the large amounts of vandalism that occurred once the fencing went it. It is part of the education of the trail users there. There are a few areas on the DMM where this has occurred.

    The local admin understand that the trails are used. They are just starting the education process early.

    PM if you have additional questions.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  93. #393
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    Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-dmm-2015.jpg

    Check your SDMBA email for an update. I'm posting the map here for a quick reference. Note: This is not yet approved.

  94. #394
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    Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-t5.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferdball View Post
    Not that I'm going to be riding any time soon, but is this new news? All I want is T1 and T4.
    It's not new news to those who have lived the saga. For newer riders without the history though, I hope it sheds light on the logic of the plan.

  95. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	t5.jpg 
Views:	99 
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ID:	998331

    It's not new news to those who have lived the saga. For newer riders without the history though, I hope it sheds light on the logic of the plan.
    You know what would be nice? If they shared their research with us. I think I remember someone linking their site, but it didn't have much on it at the time.

  96. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post
    Vernal pools are a card thrown out now and again to restrict access to a bicycle but are plowed over on a regular basis in the name of progress to build parking lots. A strange yet consistent double standard.
    Not true. Rhodes Crossing was an approved project in 2004. The build out was blocked by a federal ruling regarding vernal pools. Any development on land with vernal pools was blocked. It took the city about 10 years to put a vernal pool management program together so that these developments could then proceed. The given being that they comply with the vernal pool management plan.

    I agree that a lot goes on that seems completely illogical to the everyday rider. The city and agencies do a poor job of communicating. We have few riders who are engaged in the "process" that do get exposed to 90% of the ins and outs. I wish we had more but hey, everyone has priorities in life and that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Sure eats up a lot of my free time, for dang sure.

    Thanks for the kind words re: Black Mountain. Lot's more good stuff to come there. All done "by the book" and hopefully a standing blueprint that other trails advocates will use throughout the county.

  97. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    Not true. Rhodes Crossing was an approved project in 2004. The build out was blocked by a federal ruling regarding vernal pools. Any development on land with vernal pools was blocked. It took the city about 10 years to put a vernal pool management program together so that these developments could then proceed. The given being that they comply with the vernal pool management plan.

    I agree that a lot goes on that seems completely illogical to the everyday rider. The city and agencies do a poor job of communicating. We have few riders who are engaged in the "process" that do get exposed to 90% of the ins and outs. I wish we had more but hey, everyone has priorities in life and that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Sure eats up a lot of my free time, for dang sure.

    Thanks for the kind words re: Black Mountain. Lot's more good stuff to come there. All done "by the book" and hopefully a standing blueprint that other trails advocates will use throughout the county.
    Thanks for your help in the background. You seem to have your arms wrapped around much of the subject. As an everyday type myself I know little except I want to ride. The vernal pool thing still appears to be a card to me and the all mighty fairy shrimp that resides there. With more information and admittedly I own that I might change my mind. It seems like allot of big brother stuff in the grey areas in the nether regions of government. As you point out lack of communication within the community of what is being done. Between you and bankerboy I have some new insights. I am pleased to hear the progress that has been made.

    Had some friends that were out on the trail build at Black Mountain I was going to go one day but had a work thing pop up. Just recently joined the sdmba.

    Once again thank you for your insights and help.

  98. #398
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    Yes, I'm a tad immersed in this stuff. Chair of the Black Mountain Open Space Park's Citizen Advisory Committee (CAC), seat on the Rancho de Los Penasquitos Community Planning Board, long time seat on Los Penasquitos Canyon Preserve CAC (representing over time, Multiple Use Trails Coalition, SDMBA, and these days as the alternate rep from the planning board).

    Fingers are in other (2-wheel) pies too.

  99. #399
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    Today at 2pm?
    I make maps and seek out adventure using a Salsa El Mariachi with a 29+ front end. Read more here:

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  100. #400
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    Wednesday, july 15. It is the last item on the agenda and you probably wont see anything until after 4
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

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