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  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    This is what bothers me about trail closures in general. So many of the trails have been around for decades.

    No wildlife is being harmed by the trails being there so long. No species went extinct from it, and the local wildlife use those trails as well.

    the entire situation is odd and sad.
    In the eco-extremist state of Cali, you only need the shrill histrionics of a few enviros, concerned about fairy shrimp and button celery, to shout down the masses that are begging for just a little more trail access.
    "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
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  2. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    There's a strange mindset we mtbr's have when it comes to trails built illegally on land we don't own.

    When the time comes that the landowner starts to execute his/her goals for said land we scream bloody murder that those evil people are stealing our trails.

    We blame the city, we blame the wildlife agencies, we blame anyone other than ourselves.

    We now have some situations where land with illegal trails is having ownership transferred to city/county/state.

    Whether some or none of those illegal trails will become legalized is directly tied to the perception of mountain bikers impact on environmentally protected lands.

    Put it this way. They are ours to lose.

    We can man up and act responsibly or we can cowboy up and screw over the next generation of riders.
    Illegal trail building works... as long as you're not a rider:

    “As for the La Cuenta trail, from what I understand, the group took responsibility for that and we are now trying to permit that trail,” wrote Chris Zirkle, director of the city’s Open Space Division. “In regards to the trails being widened…the existing trails have had little to no change to them.... [U]ntil a final trails plan is approved and permitted, [the trail blazers] have been restricted to only conducting maintenance on established trails. Our hope is that through the permitting process unauthorized impacts will be addressed, including the recommendation for closure of some trails that are not safe and sustainable.”

    You got a permit for that trail? | San Diego Reader

  3. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    You know, It's pretty sad and messed up that we have to use tax payer money and resources to decommission a trail. Isn't there a better use of time and money?

    At least they will have a brand new ranger station soon.......
    The A.C.E. crew was hired to clear corridor on Black Mountain - must be done per certain monitoring criteria, so not an option for us to do that work. Took a few months to secure the funding.

    Meanwhile (a few weeks back) A.C.E had a job cancel out and donated 10 days of their labor to SDMBA. As the Black Mountain Ranger Staff also oversees 6 other open space parks they opted to use A.C.E to do work at those parks so that they too could concentrate on Black Mountain trail builds this winter.

    That the situation at DMM is what it is today - and we can argue right, wrong, indifferent, shades of gray etc etc but I think, as adults, we can all agree that the status quo (incomplete trails network, vandalism, habitat destruction) is untenable. The city must take action and it looks like the immediate decision was to reprioritize the A.C.E. crew to rehab T-3.

    Come on people . . . we need new trails. We're green lighted to build new trails. Just need corridors cleared. The crew IS up on Black Mountain today. Let's keep them on Black Mountain (by not f-ing up at DMM).

  4. #504
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    Ya know...any MTBR regular that bounces around the forums knows that Sedona has been going thru this type of stuff (minus the Coastal Commission) the past few years. Tons of "bandit/rogue" trails were built over the years. The Forest Service finally came in and closed some trails and legalized others. This same issue also went on in Breckenridge, Colorado and is currently going on in Durango as well. Without outright condoning illegal activity, it almost seems that it's better to build, build, build then ask for forgiveness or hope the trails get accepted into a trail network because the "city" (or other management entity) realizes how well the trails are working. That probably won't work here though because the City of SD management is blatantly incompetent.

    Disclaimer: I've only ridden at DMM once (3-4 weeks ago) and other than this website, know nothing of it's "history". Just learned that the "trails" have been there since 1964 ten minutes ago. If that's the case, they obviously aren't hurting anything.

  5. #505
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    Just came back from a ride at La Costa. Lots of habitat signs up along with lots of good trails. How come they can coexist there and not at DMM? What we need is something similar down here. Hopefully that can happen at Black Mountain.

    The prospect for something new at PQ park seems pretty remote, even thought its overwhelmed with users making their way to the waterfall.

  6. #506
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    It's impossible to prove when trails first came to Deer Canyon. You can't bloody see the trails because they are under the canopy.

    In terms of habitat sensitivity: Ask yourself if Deer canyon is unique or are there other canyons that are identical.

    It's as unique as Torrey Pines. The vernal pools on the mesa are not so different than other mesa vernal pools but they are THE vernal pools that are slated to be protected and saved from being turned into a shopping mall.

    We don't get to ride Torrey Pines. We do get to ride DMM.

    That is the real significance of achieving this trails plan. Yes, your glass is half-empty. Time to quit dwelling on that and start enjoying the half-full bit.

    See what I did there? Opened up the door for some wisecracker to state that we had a vast trails network on DMM and now we've been handed a half vast network.

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    You know why it's unique? Because they haven't freaking developed it, that's why!

    I'm tired of all the ******** about habitat destruction when they:
    - backfill all the vernal pools on Alta Del Mar
    - approve 500+ homes to go in within a 10mi radius
    - backfill Camino Del Sur instead of making an overpass over the habitat
    - approve mixed use development south of the Mobil station
    - on and f*cking on

  8. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    ...and now we've been handed a half vast network.
    "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
    -- Robert A. Heinlein

  9. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    It's impossible to prove when trails first came to Deer Canyon. You can't bloody see the trails because they are under the canopy.

    In terms of habitat sensitivity: Ask yourself if Deer canyon is unique or are there other canyons that are identical.

    It's as unique as Torrey Pines. The vernal pools on the mesa are not so different than other mesa vernal pools but they are THE vernal pools that are slated to be protected and saved from being turned into a shopping mall.

    We don't get to ride Torrey Pines. We do get to ride DMM.

    That is the real significance of achieving this trails plan. Yes, your glass is half-empty. Time to quit dwelling on that and start enjoying the half-full bit.

    See what I did there? Opened up the door for some wisecracker to state that we had a vast trails network on DMM and now we've been handed a half vast network.
    The area has had trails which have moved around due to development. I am probably not unique in my long tenure here in San Diego (since 1967) nor Penasquitos (since 1991) but even the name Del Mar Mesa is much newer than many of the trails in question. I never really heard that name before they started calling it sensitive and placing fences. In the 70 cow roamed the canyon proper The area was considered open space. The main horse ranch was in Sorrento Valley as the PQ one was a turn around for us as the Horse Ranch thee now was only accessible by dirt roads.

    In the mid Eighties when I got my first mountain bike the trail network was different as where Park Village is now had good riding and the DMM especially the area of tunnels was to be avoided as there was a small city of migrant workers that worked the local farms of Carmel Valley.

    In the early 90's they were essentially cleared to make way for Park Village the area was considered open space still. After the migrants were cleared the area became more open for bikers. Full disclosure I did not ride in this area at this time as I took a break in riding from about 1999 to 2006 and most of my riding in the 90's was not in the canyon but for all intent and purpose the area was considered open space.

    It is not until somewhere in the 2000s that we see habitat closures and suddenly it becomes and issue. I would think this is most likely funded by the proposition H if you are for the 56 you are for H campaign where the Sierra club signed off on the redevelopment of the previously off limit building of homes in Carmel Valley/PQ corridor to the tune of 10k homes.

    It is amazing how less environmentally sensitive the area was after the great stewards of the Sierra club received 8 million dollars to support Prop H

    As far as what trail was where I cannot say but the "environmentally sensitive" was considered open space from when I was a child to adulthood. I disagree we disturb the natural balance as bikers hikers and equestrians and we should have access to established trails for our enjoyment.

    However City Official due pressure from Environmental Groups whom will open their legs for money disagree. Now the bureaucrats chisel away at open space as they change the City Plan (H) and we are supposed to sit and accept it without question.

    Again the fight back from Bankerboy and apparently yourself and other MTB advocates is applauded. You have taken a stand and more than helped. The opening of Tunnel 4 and other areas is applauded by myself and I think most of the MTB community. But the fact remains that there was a bigger trail network that was open and is now closed including the parts now that have been open for no reason other than they can.

    The area cannot be developed for anything at such time until they take a bulldozer to it. I am fairly certain on all the closure we speak of that you cannot obtain a building permit. Just like the entire area that was rezoned due to Prop H. But we cannot ride a bike in this established network of trails just because.

    If the environmentalist that have pushed this agenda so hard if they were smart they we realize we are actually on the same side. We wish to see the area undeveloped. We have money and a voice. We should stand together to prevent future development of the area. But instead they battle us for the cause of mystical fairy shrimp and push us into smaller and smaller corners. Their agenda is anti human traffic in the middle of a City.

    And you question why we are reluctant to accept this mandate?

  10. #510
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    No one is arguing that the population influx over the last 25 years has been painful. Within another 25 most of the undeveloped land that was not set aside for preservation will be more houses, stores, and offices. This is not a question of if but when.

    There was enough foresight to set aside land for designated open space. Much of the land you are referring to was not open space as we view it now. It was large parcels of land that was privately owned. There were rules on selling and developing it that slowed the pace of growth. Once the public voted in favor of the prop, it was a land grab for developers.

    4S Ranch really was a ranch. Cows ran in PQ up until the late 80's. I played cowboy more than once on my bike in there until one day a heifer stood up for itself (another story, another day) Once Prop H and a few others were passed, that all changed. It was then that the land we know a PQ, McGonigal, Gonzalez, Lake Hodges, San Dieguito, and Black Mountain were first set aside as designated open space rather than the open space where you could do as you please. Now we have the guaranteed open spaces that cannot be developed under law. That is a good thing given the rapid increase in the build-out of the area.

    Driven down the 56 lately or looked at the valley across the street from Oak Valley Middle school?

    Since there is more and more development, there is an obligation on the city to protect the designated open spaces and its habitats. We are close to the top of the food chain and definitely the dominant species. The animals and plants need their space too. It naive to believe we do not have an impact.

    A lot of the anger I am perceiving is based on the development outside the property lines of the preserve. All of those developments have been on the books since the late 90's. They are not new. Yes, there were trails on them and they were great. Once the plow hits the ground they are gone forever. Unless we get in front of the developer prior to plans being drawn up, it is really hard to get concessions.

    But none of this matters in the Del Mar Mesa. For some reason there is a feeling that the city is trying to screw us over. Fact is this has been on the books since 2009. All they are asking for is really simple. If there is a fence, don't go in there. The DMM was great when it was unregulated. But ask any moto rider about SD old and SD current. Laws change, access changes, and we have to change too. We have tons of trails beyond the DMM. Go explore and vent out the anger in the saddle. You can put in multiple 20+mile loops and several 50+ mile with little or no redundancy. Don't let 1.5 miles of tunnel 3 ruin it for you.

    On the plus side, the trial crew is out on Black Mountain today working on the latest extension to last years trail work. More on that later.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  11. #511
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    The comparison of lands developed (per community master plans) to what percentage of social trails were included in the plan are a common theme in the debate on-line.

    I totally understand the frustration in declining open space and then within the saved open space a further decline in trails available.

    I can't put the genie back in the bottle in DMM. The lesson is that all new developments need to include a trails component. Reactive trails advocacy yields compromised results. Proactive trails advocacy - get trails plans in those community and master plans is the key for success moving forward.

    Pacific Highlands (Pardee) includes a trails plan but it's rubbish. I'm talking that new stuff going in south of Carmel Valley road, either side of 56, west of tunnels. The "trails" will allow linkage from Gonzales Canyon to McGonigle Canyon but they aren't trails, they are PAVED, adjacent to road. Pretty much what most of us call "sidewalks". Insert sound of clenched fist meeting forehead . . .

    By the time I became aware of that, the ship had long sailed. On east side of tunnels though we have a progressive developer (trail runner) and a much better outcome is in the offing.

    Black Mountain Ranch (Lusardi - including Santa Luz, Del Sur etc) has a master trails plan. While many of these are repurposed old farm roads, the new alignments will be single tracks - The Ahwee trail built last year being one such trail in the plan. The key here is for us to remain engaged with the (home) builder and with city staff to advocate for quality alignments and use volunteers to do the builds rather than letting Bubba loose with his dozer.

    The ongoing stuff at DMM though is eating time and energy away from making positive strides elsewhere locally. I'd much rather have you guys riding my ass as to what is taking so long to get new stuff built than being in free fall mode lamenting the DMM trails plan. It is what is. Is what it is going to be. It's not going to change. We have to move on folks.

  12. #512
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    Here is a side of the city you don't hear about enough. They are spending a lot of money for another trials plan close by at Black Mountain.

    Black Mountain Trail Plan 2015/2016 begins

    This is proof the city is not out to get bike riders.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  13. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Here is a side of the city you don't hear about enough. They are spending a lot of money for another trials plan close by at Black Mountain.

    Black Mountain Trail Plan 2015/2016 begins

    This is proof the city is not out to get bike riders.
    Can't wait to start digging at BM again. Come on rains!

    <break>

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  14. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    The comparison of lands developed (per community master plans) to what percentage of social trails were included in the plan are a common theme in the debate on-line.

    I totally understand the frustration in declining open space and then within the saved open space a further decline in trails available.

    I can't put the genie back in the bottle in DMM. The lesson is that all new developments need to include a trails component. Reactive trails advocacy yields compromised results. Proactive trails advocacy - get trails plans in those community and master plans is the key for success moving forward.

    Pacific Highlands (Pardee) includes a trails plan but it's rubbish. I'm talking that new stuff going in south of Carmel Valley road, either side of 56, west of tunnels. The "trails" will allow linkage from Gonzales Canyon to McGonigle Canyon but they aren't trails, they are PAVED, adjacent to road. Pretty much what most of us call "sidewalks". Insert sound of clenched fist meeting forehead . . .

    By the time I became aware of that, the ship had long sailed. On east side of tunnels though we have a progressive developer (trail runner) and a much better outcome is in the offing.

    Black Mountain Ranch (Lusardi - including Santa Luz, Del Sur etc) has a master trails plan. While many of these are repurposed old farm roads, the new alignments will be single tracks - The Ahwee trail built last year being one such trail in the plan. The key here is for us to remain engaged with the (home) builder and with city staff to advocate for quality alignments and use volunteers to do the builds rather than letting Bubba loose with his dozer.

    The ongoing stuff at DMM though is eating time and energy away from making positive strides elsewhere locally. I'd much rather have you guys riding my ass as to what is taking so long to get new stuff built than being in free fall mode lamenting the DMM trails plan. It is what is. Is what it is going to be. It's not going to change. We have to move on folks.
    Ok fair enough. The eco freaks have done more damage to tunnel 3 in one weekend than riders have done in decades. and that sucks I will move forward

    One thing though is the comunication of the SDMBA is rather lacking. I only joined last year and really have never been updated via email. My reason was the Arch Ride

    If we are going to collectively raise our voices for change to a greater level there has to be a reach out to the all members on a regular basis. Besides my thanks for registration and show up here for the ride there has been no email correspondence from them what so ever. I just checked my box. I do not know if I am unique and have simply been overlooked as a member but if you want a grass roots movement watering the grass now and again would be wise

  15. #515
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    Gallo-I think you may have just been left off the email list. I have been getting near weekly updates. Right on the top of their website is a sign up.

    I just got a mailing for SDMBA's Trail Access Fund, which seems to be what we need at the moment. If any of you have not gotten the flyer, please go to San Diego Mountain Biking Association to make a donation. All money stays here in SD.

    Thanks for the positive news Bankerboy! And it looks like we got our rain.

  16. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Here is a side of the city you don't hear about enough. They are spending a lot of money for another trials plan close by at Black Mountain.

    Black Mountain Trail Plan 2015/2016 begins

    This is proof the city is not out to get bike riders.
    What makes it "easier" to get trails added at BM than most other SD areas?

    Are there no endangered species there?

    Is it not suitable for more houses or mini-malls?

    What is it, BB...?

  17. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTSO2112 View Post
    What makes it "easier" to get trails added at BM than most other SD areas?

    Are there no endangered species there?

    Is it not suitable for more houses or mini-malls?

    What is it, BB...?
    A lot of Del Mar Mesa is mitigation land which the city/agencies would tell us is meant for preservation, not recreation. BM is an existing open space park, not mitigation land. That is a huge difference.

  18. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post

    One thing though is the comunication of the SDMBA is rather lacking. I only joined last year and really have never been updated via email. My reason was the Arch Ride
    Have you signed up for trail news? that'll give you a SDMBA update every week. Facebook page is updated almost daily. And there is a monthly advocacy meeting where you can get a serious inside scoop on the status of just about any trail system. So you can be about as informed as you want to between those three options.

  19. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by evdog View Post
    A lot of Del Mar Mesa is mitigation land which the city/agencies would tell us is meant for preservation, not recreation. BM is an existing open space park, not mitigation land. That is a huge difference.
    ^^^That is probably the biggest thing but I have to give props to Rodster. He has been on the RPQ council for years and a major component of the Black Mountain CAC. He was working with Ranger Ed Christensen for better than 6 years to get through the Negative Declaration and onto the city's radar. The map what we are building from saw the public light of day less than 18 months ago.

    The lessons learned from PQ were applied at Black Mountain in things like partnering with the City, Open Space, City Biologists, Developers, and Private land holders. These partnerships have flourished and it is making easier on other projects. This is why I get so upset when people challenge what has happened in Tunnels. The public spoke, the city and other agencies listened enough to get trails where none were previously allowed. It was a crummy compromise, riddled with issues yet to be resolved, but it was the first time this sort of thing happened. We cannot afford to lose the help because a rider feels they are owed a particular trail just because they have always rode it.

    The next steps is trail planning evolution is getting in front of developers of future construction. There is no guarantees we will get to keep the trails on their lands but I am starting to see some changes. The developer of the mansions on the north side of Black Mountain has approached us about trails in and around the community. There is another large developer who has approached us for help with a new trail. These will not add up to much but you have to start small and grow from there. A bigger developer in the south as expressed some interest in trail development well beyond the cursory 1/4 mile 8' wide DG path originally stated in their plans

    So to say Del Mar Mesa was the first to get there really is not quite correct but many the lessons learned there are helping with other projects throughout the county.

    This would also be a great time to give props to the other instrumental event that put mountain biking in front of the city staff. The Mission Trails protest ride 2+ years ago definitely got their attention. It will take a village to get this done.

    Thought for the day

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  20. #520
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    Hello Bighammer.

    I see you have climbed back from under your bridge?
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

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    Quote Originally Posted by D_Man View Post
    Have you signed up for trail news? that'll give you a SDMBA update every week. Facebook page is updated almost daily. And there is a monthly advocacy meeting where you can get a serious inside scoop on the status of just about any trail system. So you can be about as informed as you want to between those three options.
    Thanks just signed up. Odd that I was not opted in as a member

  22. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Here is a side of the city you don't hear about enough. They are spending a lot of money for another trials plan close by at Black Mountain.

    Black Mountain Trail Plan 2015/2016 begins

    This is proof the city is not out to get bike riders.
    I wouldn't say the city is out to get bikers.
    I would say city managers and planners have grossly ignored a large user population whilst underestimating the benefits of catering to that user group.

    Further, reading things like the city is considering enforcement of park closures after hours and ticketing of riders in the dark is absurd and continues to prove the point that the decision makers are out of touch with reality.

    A short example:
    Cowles main trail after dark. I can sit and see hundreds of headlamps a night.
    While technically closed after dusk, never have I read a mention of ticketing hikers for being there after dark.

    Simple solution, parks are open after dark on even number days.

  23. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by ressaw View Post
    The City of San Diego Parks dept. is planning on destroying DMM trails starting November 14-maybe sooner. Your tax dollars at work.
    In 2012 some folks cut "new trails" in city open space and got busted doing so. The rehab costs were quoted at $65,000. The D.A. was looking for reimbursement costs plus.

    That's a direct apples to apples comparison to the rehab of the trails not included in the DMM plan. The only difference is the builders did not get caught in the act and the rehab activities are proceeding many years after the initital habitat disturbance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocd View Post
    Simple solution, parks are open after dark on even number days.
    Why not every day? The better solution would be to just ignore the after dark users. If they just close their eyes for a minute, it will be like no one was ever there.
    Mountain bikers, hikers and horseback riders are not the enemy. Bulldozers are the enemy.

  25. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by outside! View Post
    Why not every day? The better solution would be to just ignore the after dark users. If they just close their eyes for a minute, it will be like no one was ever there.
    nocturnal critters, give em every other day to take care of business.

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    The man was out in force on Sunday one parked at Tunnel 4 and another at the end of North Rim Trail, couldn't even tell Tunnel 3 was ever there at the bottom. Funny how there always seems to be an infinite supply of endangered habitat to use for brushing trails.

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    I found it odd as it has been quite a while that I have seen one vehicle and saw two on the same day. Pretty obvious that what Bankerboy and Rodster have said they are monitoring. If we want the rest of the mesa they are promising we better behave nicely

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    taken yesterday at the end of tunnel 3.. sigh
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-image.jpg  


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    Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-image.jpg

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    The irony was not lost on me. Seeing Rangers driving their 4-wheel trucks through the Mesa to protect the wildlife and sensitive habitat from destructive 28 pound bikes. I especially like the new truck tracks which are creating vernal pools for the fairy shrimp.

  31. #531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo View Post
    I found it odd as it has been quite a while that I have seen one vehicle and saw two on the same day. Pretty obvious that what Bankerboy and Rodster have said they are monitoring. If we want the rest of the mesa they are promising we better behave nicely
    Are we required the bring them coffee and donuts too?

    Hell we just brought them a new ranger station, they should stay they more often
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  32. #532
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    Both trucks appeared to be brand new also. Ran into one of the rangers as he was hiking the North Rim trail from the power lines where his truck was parked.

  33. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by socal_jack View Post
    Both trucks appeared to be brand new also. Ran into one of the rangers as he was hiking the North Rim trail from the power lines where his truck was parked.
    Did you ask him how they justify driving heavy 4x4 vehicles into "protected" areas in order to keep out the bikes and hikers?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Did you ask him how they justify driving heavy 4x4 vehicles into "protected" areas in order to keep out the bikes and hikers?
    Now come on Klurejr... asking a state and/or federal official to justify their actions with common sense is just plain asking too much

    It's perfectly acceptable in their minds to create vernal pools with their trucks (and SDGE), cut down sensitive habitat to close trails that were there before they were born, and allow developers to continue to build on sensitive habitat that you were to stay out of for years. And on top of all of that total BS, they will write you up if you don't obey (and forget their coffee & donuts)
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    Quote Originally Posted by socal_jack View Post
    Both trucks appeared to be brand new also. .
    Thank you for your tax contribution
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    Now come on Klurejr... asking a state and/or federal official to justify their actions with common sense is just plain asking too much

    It's perfectly acceptable in their minds to create vernal pools with their trucks (and SDGE), cut down sensitive habitat to close trails that were there before they were born, and allow developers to continue to build on sensitive habitat that you were to stay out of for years. And on top of all of that total BS, they will write you up if you don't obey (and forget their coffee & donuts)
    No harm in making it clear that what they are doing is worse for the environment than what they are "protecting". Not everyone is dense, maybe it will spark some thinking on their part to question the orders they are getting from the top.
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    Along that note, CEQA was originally supposed to be used to make sure CA govts complied with the environmental laws. Now they routinely exempt themselves, like when DFG put the fences in at Calvera several years ago.

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    You guys wear me out ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    You guys wear me out ;-)
    Rod- It's the thread that keeps giving...
    Ryan McLatchy, you are my hero

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    You guys wear me out ;-)
    No one has to be happy about what is happening....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    No one has to be happy about what HAS happenED....
    Fixed it for you. It is a done deal.

    People keep arguing this topic like it can be changed. It was done 4 years ago.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

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    The argument is not whether things can be undone or not. The recent threads are more about the hypocrisy of the Rangers riding large trucks through the Mesa and doing other destructive things in the name of habitat preservation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Fixed it for you. It is a done deal.

    People keep arguing this topic like it can be changed. It was done 4 years ago.
    I was speaking in a more general manner, not just about PQ.

    And I do think trail users should be upset when they see the land managers driving heavy 4x4 trucks out in the area's they are "protecting" and essentially doing more damage than they are preventing. It is comical.
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    Specifically what destructive things are the rangers doing?

    Driving their trucks on the established dirt roads (when dry) that are open for hikers and bikers plus SDGE service vehicles doesn't qualify.

    Piling deadfall in T-3 doesn't qualify. In fact it does qualify as rehab as the layer of mulch will retain moisture and promote regrowth.

    The only place sensitive habitat is getting cut is on Black Mountain and your tax dollars are at work clearing corridors for the new trails we're building this winter (weather permitting - where's this El Nino?).

    Matt, Rich J, Ben and myself were out Sunday crawling on hands and knees through dense vegetation flagging corridor for the American Conservation Experience crew to clear. Matt and Rich were out there mid week last week doing same and Matt was up there again this evening getting more done.

    I'd say greater than 1/2 of the new stuff is cleared. Of the remaining stuff, 1/3 of that is flagged. Probably about 1 mile of stuff still needs flagging.

    If anyone wants to reenact the Blair Witch Project, this work is as close as it gets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    Specifically what destructive things are the rangers doing?

    Driving their trucks on the established dirt roads (when dry) that are open for hikers and bikers plus SDGE service vehicles doesn't qualify.

    Piling deadfall in T-3 doesn't qualify. In fact it does qualify as rehab as the layer of mulch will retain moisture and promote regrowth.

    The only place sensitive habitat is getting cut is on Black Mountain and your tax dollars are at work clearing corridors for the new trails we're building this winter (weather permitting - where's this El Nino?).

    Matt, Rich J, Ben and myself were out Sunday crawling on hands and knees through dense vegetation flagging corridor for the American Conservation Experience crew to clear. Matt and Rich were out there mid week last week doing same and Matt was up there again this evening getting more done.

    I'd say greater than 1/2 of the new stuff is cleared. Of the remaining stuff, 1/3 of that is flagged. Probably about 1 mile of stuff still needs flagging.

    If anyone wants to reenact the Blair Witch Project, this work is as close as it gets.
    It does not look like dead fall it looks clearly a felled tree in the forefront to me and the mulch looks more like tinder. and I disagree it is sensitive habitat. It is hardy and has the ability to bounce back quickly.

    And while much of it is in the past tense for you and Bankerboy it is fresh and hurts. We are in mourning and have not hit the acceptance phase just yet. I personally have no issues with the ranger out there in their trucks.

    I appreciate you help and advocacy but am still angry at the process which I recently became aware of.

    That being said I understand the finality of it when trees are felled to restrict access.

    I am ready to move on but still have a bad taste in my mouth. I think that many here are just lamenting and pissed and moving toward the acceptance phase. Defending it only riles us up a bit more

    Just saying


    Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-t3.jpg

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    On behalf of Gina - Sr Ranger for PQ and DM:

    There was a post accusing us of falling trees to block trails, with a picture. The oak log installed to block the bottom of T3 was taken from PQ, it is a branch that fell off an oak about 3 or 4 years ago.

    Anyway, I want to set your minds at ease, the City Park Rangers do not cut new vegetation to rehab areas. We might import clean native cuttings from other locations, but we don't cut them from sensitive habitat.

    I very much appreciate the fact that people are mourning their trails. There are 5 stages of grief, right? Seems we are still in the very beginning stages of denial and anger. We just have to keep working to get through to the acceptance phase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    On behalf of Gina - Sr Ranger for PQ and DM:

    There was a post accusing us of falling trees to block trails, with a picture. The oak log installed to block the bottom of T3 was taken from PQ, it is a branch that fell off an oak about 3 or 4 years ago.

    Anyway, I want to set your minds at ease, the City Park Rangers do not cut new vegetation to rehab areas. We might import clean native cuttings from other locations, but we don't cut them from sensitive Hardy coastal sage brush and sturdy coastal Oak habitat.

    I very much appreciate the fact that people are mourning their trails. There are 5 stages of grief, right? Seems we are still in the very beginning stages of denial and anger. We just have to keep working to get through to the acceptance phase.
    Fixed that for ya Gina.... I hate that anyone uses the term "sensitive" to describe the rugged plants and animals that are native to this dry desert like environment near the sea. There is nothing sensitive about it. The native plants have adapted over thousands of years to the climate and conditions here, and the fact that they survive in a major drought region is testament to the fact that they are the opposite of sensitive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster View Post
    On behalf of Gina - Sr Ranger for PQ and DM:
    Anyway, I want to set your minds at ease, the City Park Rangers do not cut new vegetation to rehab areas. We might import clean native cuttings from other locations, but we don't cut them from sensitive habitat.
    That's not entirely true. I have seen and have photos of brushed trails with fresh vegetation. Vegetation that was cut for the purpose of brushing trails, and had nothing to do with maintenance. This photo was taken at MTRP. Clippings were used to brush a trail. No BS. Tickets being issues on ALL of  Del Mar Mesa aka Tunnels-cimg0065.jpg

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    Ah, MTRP brushing drama revived.

    That was back in the day of another rider and some misguided brushing attempts in Spring Canyon.

    Who Sanitized Three Barrels?

    and

    Mission trails hazard

    for some context.

    It was not rangers.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    Ah, MTRP brushing drama revived.

    That was back in the day of another rider and some misguided brushing attempts in Spring Canyon.

    Who Sanitized Three Barrels?

    and

    Mission trails hazard

    for some context.

    It was not rangers.

    Noticed the cut Chaparral shrubs about 3 weeks ago. I figured it's either A:that Stravahole that got Teote closed a little while back. Or,
    B: some misguided dude trying to make it safe for grandma to ride...

    Just hope that Ca FW don't get all pissed off and close this trail too.
    BS.

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