# Thread: Spring canyon, the party is over

1. ## Spring canyon, the party is over

If you're willing to accept this, cool.

If not, here is the most recent work from the city of San Diego. This included a Ranger, a truck and advising people to not ride the "trails that do not exist"

Standby for fun and exciting rider plans to ride Saturday mornings on "legal" trails!!

2. More fun at Missing Trails Regional Park.

3. If I could ride through and over that stuff, anyone could. And I know I could.

4. I am not sure a bunch of dead branches is better for the environment or looks better than an existing trail.... Now what are the deer, rabbits and Coyotes going to do, that was the wildlife's trail as well.

5. ## Spring canyon, the party is over

The place is a sad joke.

6. Originally Posted by D_Man
The place is a sad joke.
Agreed, I am done with SD. Did they do anything to any other trails?

7. What "trail" was this? I see the bridge, but I have a hard time discerning which one it is.

8. Originally Posted by Carloswithac
What "trail" was this? I see the bridge, but I have a hard time discerning which one it is.
It's the first little bit of singletrack as you head north under the 52. It's about 50 yards long and it runs on a diagonal between the north/south fireroad and the second east/west fireroad. It's not a big deal trail to lose, but it is troubling that they're beginning to shut things down.

9. Originally Posted by Canaan
It's the first little bit of singletrack as you head north under the 52. It's about 50 yards long and it runs on a diagonal between the north/south fireroad and the second east/west fireroad. It's not a big deal trail to lose, but it is troubling that they're beginning to shut things down.
This particular trail is kinda redundant because there are 3 other ways through the same area but like you said it is troubling as an indicator of things to come. If they pull the same crap on 3 barrels, toads and some of the other single tracks it would be a real bummer. Lets hope they run out of deadfall.

10. The "Strange Bedfellows" have WON.

11. I wonder what the Fire Marshall thinks about mass spreading of dry tinder in a fire prone area?

12. Originally Posted by Just me
I wonder what the Fire Marshall thinks about mass spreading of dry tinder in a fire prone area?
Go light it on fire and leave a note saying "bad idea".

13. Originally Posted by Klurejr
I am not sure a bunch of dead branches is better for the environment or looks better than an existing trail.... Now what are the deer, rabbits and Coyotes going to do, that was the wildlife's trail as well.
Well, I guess they'll have to just HTFU, or the F&W 'occifers' are gonna write them up too! As for us, it looks like time to shop for Lycra!

14. Ok, just a thought... the city rangers don't really want to close trails or be in the enforcement business. They'll only do this stuff to appease the demands on them by the "agencies" (USFW, CDFW). So maybe, just maybe, they've closed this fairly visible but inconsequential trail so they can show the agencies "good faith" and maybe ease up the pressure to do more. Yeah, call me a pollyanna, but I'm not gonna lose sleep over losing this trail.

BTW, I doubt they'll touch 3 Barrels because most of it is outside of their area of interest (i.e. it's within USMC boundaries).

15. Originally Posted by ocd
If you're willing to accept this, cool.

If not, here is the most recent work from the city of San Diego. This included a Ranger, a truck and advising people to not ride the "trails that do not exist"

Standby for fun and exciting rider plans to ride Saturday mornings on "legal" trails!!
This is what Deer Dancer and the squiggly highline trail between it and Teote also looks like now.

16. This is what happens when some trail areas get too popular. Heck, I was hiking up Iron Mountain today and reminisced about the good old days (15-20 years ago) when I used to ride Iron Mountain, Mt Woodson, Black Mountain, MTRP, Cowles Mtn, etc...and there were almost nobody out there except a few hardy bikers and trail runners. Now, all those places are littered with day hikers and w/e wannabees. You used to be able ride ALL the trails in MTRP...now, only those signed with bikes allowed or multi-use. Ahhh, the good ol days!

17. Originally Posted by RTSO2112
This is what happens when some trail areas get too popular.
Mountain biking got popular again... it had died off for a while but it's back in full swing.

There's due to be some gnarly trail conflict in Mission Trails. More hikers, more joggers, more bike on the "legal" trails and there's going to be issues.

Funny thing is, Saturday the ranger was camped out near this mess/just up the hill at Deer Dancer (DD and the squiggly were not covered in deadfall at that time). While this took place, no one seemed to police the organized walk/hike/jog thing that was taking place near the Jackson drive lot. There wasn't sufficient trash cans for the event, they left the trash out in bags. The bags have since been torn open and as of this morning, trash surrounded the parking area (water cups, snack bags, etc). I'm sure the addition of 4 rangers will address this (they're coming) but currently, the needed duties seem to be ignored while trail police advise people trying to get some exercise to go elsewhere.

18. Originally Posted by BikingScott
This is what Deer Dancer and the squiggly highline trail between it and Teote also looks like now.
Deer Dancer is blown out in a lot of places, so it's not a huge loss, but the little connector from Teote to the first fire road was fun and in pretty good shape. Mark my words, it's only a matter of time until L-1/Teote and 3B are blocked off as well.

19. Originally Posted by Canaan
Mark my words, it's only a matter of time until L-1/Teote and 3B are blocked off as well.
You mean the new deadfall on the side of the trail isn't there to "mark the path to grandmas house" ??

If you look closely, you will see more and more "staging areas" and small piles accumulating.

20. ## Spring canyon, the party is over

I keep wondering: are there other parts of the country where the second biggest user group is so regularly pooped upon by the authorities? Or is that just what makes Cali special?

21. Originally Posted by D_Man
I keep wondering: are there other parts of the country where the second biggest user group is so regularly pooped upon by the authorities? Or is that just what makes Cali special?
I don't think other put up with it like "we" do.

Steamboat Springs Trails Alliance just submitted a major proposal, I've read a lot of it. It's not amateur, it's legit, possibly a template for others, should they want to spend the time reading it.

Steamboat Springs Trails

Overall it's relatively a joke. You can close an area, the riders are going to go to... other areas, few of which are legal. In the end, new trails arise, you end up with twice as many environmental problems. But that doesn't matter, it's a NIMBY attitude from the top down.

The master plan meetings wrapped up in... 2011 and we're "just about" to get a preview of the new master plan ??

Elsewhere in Cali, land managers are working with rider and making incredible improvements. This isn't a statewide issue. Many of the EIR, CEQA, liability and other excuses we've heard for years are starting to truly look like BS. It's simply a city that doesn't want to work with a few user groups. Even worse, it's really seems like it's just a few handfuls of people.

By the way, there will be a new multi-million dollar structure breaking ground off Mast Blvd soon. Bet that moves quickly.

22. Whatever happened down in SD county? I always thought that SD was more open minded, it seems the powers that be down there are always fighting against the trail users. You guys have(had) tons of awesome stuff, hope something works out in your guys favor one day. Although I'm from Big Bear, which is seeing a boom in trails being built, I've ridden PQ, Daley Ranch, Elfin, Hodges and Calvera, hate to hear that you are losing some access to great trails....keep up the fight!

23. Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff
Whatever happened down in SD county? I always thought that SD was more open minded, it seems the powers that be down there are always fighting against the trail users. You guys have(had) tons of awesome stuff, hope something works out in your guys favor one day. Although I'm from Big Bear, which is seeing a boom in trails being built, I've ridden PQ, Daley Ranch, Elfin, Hodges and Calvera, hate to hear that you are losing some access to great trails....keep up the fight!
I heard talk that there was going to be a mass exodus of mtn bike riders from the SD area. Their plan was to relocate and start off fresh in the San Bernardino mountains.

24. Originally Posted by D_Man
I keep wondering: are there other parts of the country where the second biggest user group is so regularly pooped upon by the authorities? Or is that just what makes Cali special?
It's really about what makes coastal San diego 'special' here Coastal and up to about 10 miles inland.
What makes for the magic here is the 'special' relationship between unions, big real estate developers, and local and state officials. For every new area of mesas and canyons, or any open space, for that matter, that gets developed, other remaining open space must be mandated for 'pristine habitat' designation. That means no more trails for the peons.

So we watch our tax money being spent to pay armed goons to ticket us for trespassing on newly 'pristine' habitat.
What's contributed to this has been , up to now, the 'libertarian' type view of most mtb riders. Most SD riders don't want to be bothered with organizing and such. So, even though many of us are homeowners and professionals, it's easy to kick us down and out of the new 'pristine' areas where we have been using the same trails for 20 years or more, in some cases.
Recently, the USMC got into the act too. They even closed down the Stowe trail, on the vey periphery of their massive base. It is actually a historical ranch trail, at least 100 years old.

But mostly it's the 'strange bedfellows' relationship between the developers and the local and State authorities. They rail against tree-huggers crying over 'fairy shrimp' on land they want to bulldoze flat for a new tract of townhomes and McMansions, but immediately become 'environmentalists' themselves when it is 'mitigation time'. Then fairy shrimp and horney toads are found to be getting decimated by those darned mtb riders. Even those riders who bought homes adjacent to the open space with the understanding that it would remain 'open space'. The realtors just left out that it wouldn't be 'open' to THEM!

25. San Diego mountain biking news lately feels like

26. Originally Posted by Ray Raton
Even those riders who bought homes adjacent to the open space with the understanding that it would remain 'open space'. The realtors just left out that it wouldn't be 'open' to THEM!
Granted the issues are slightly different from PQ, but I came within an inch of buying a house close to MTRP/Cowles precisely so that I could have a few good rides from the front door: Cowles, Spring/Oak, and then Mast Blvd Up to Sycamore. I'd be pretty angry right now if I had. Of course, all the rancho san diego trails that I ride could easily succumb to the same fate tomorrow since few of them are legit.

27. Originally Posted by D_Man
Granted the issues are slightly different from PQ, but I came within an inch of buying a house close to MTRP/Cowles precisely so that I could have a few good rides from the front door: Cowles, Spring/Oak, and then Mast Blvd Up to Sycamore. I'd be pretty angry right now if I had. Of course, all the rancho san diego trails that I ride could easily succumb to the same fate tomorrow since few of them are legit.
The Devil is in the details, and the details are just between the 'Strange Bedfellows'.

28. That's sad. Another reason why I just avoid Mission Trails entirely.

29. Originally Posted by D_Man
I keep wondering: are there other parts of the country where the second biggest user group is so regularly pooped upon by the authorities? Or is that just what makes Cali special?
The difference between California and other states is that other states are not controlled by the Sierra Club and Greenpeace at the highest levels of state government (i.e. Governor on down).

The environmental movement in California is so powerful, that they even managed to shutdown San Onofre powerplant wchich supplies San Diego, Orange and LA counties with a significant amounts of electrical power.

30. Originally Posted by wjphillips
The environmental movement in California is so powerful, that they even managed to shutdown San Onofre powerplant wchich supplies San Diego, Orange and LA counties with a significant amounts of electrical power.
Inept management, poor engineering and Fukushima helped that along.

31. Originally Posted by wjphillips
The environmental movement in California is so powerful, that they even managed to shutdown San Onofre powerplant wchich supplies San Diego, Orange and LA counties with a significant amounts of electrical power.
No matter what Fox news quotes, that is all crap. So. Cal Edison had no intention of bowing to the Enviros and had all the clout. They shut down the reactors because it made more financial sense to shutter it after the poorly and faulty designed steam generators. Besides, they are making money 3 ways off of us now.

1) We paid for the upgrade
2) We get to pay for the decomissioning due to the faulty design
3) We are paying higher rates than before because they claim their cost have gone up becasue they claim they cannot produce enough electricity (funny, no rolling blackouts so far..)

People were whining for years about San Onofre and are claiming victory now. Kind of like claiming victory for a football team. Enviros had nothing to do with it. They were on the sidelines the entire time. It was the 100% Edison's decision.

The crap that is happening is SD is a policy shift in the CFDW. They are forcing the cities hand, not that the city required much of a push. We have to figure out a way to change CDFW policies to allow use.

32. Originally Posted by outside!
Inept management, poor engineering and Fukushima helped that along.
That would be a factual, evidence-based observation. This kind of thinking is not welcomed by many mtb riders. So, keeping them in mind, I might as well add Atheists and Agenda 21 to the mix, before anybody else beats me to it!

I think that about covers all the conspirators.

33. When will the cyclone fence go up?

It was fun while it lasted.

RIP

34. Originally Posted by Howeler
When will the cyclone fence go up?

It was fun while it lasted.

RIP
One step away from concertina wire...we have that here where I work. Can't tell you where, or I'd have to...

35. Originally Posted by RTSO2112
One step away from concertina wire...we have that here where I work. Can't tell you where, or I'd have to...
Maybe they have little extra to donate to the cause, Chief. Ranger Mel would likely give you a Blue Ribbon if you did that!

36. Originally Posted by D_Man
Granted the issues are slightly different from PQ, but I came within an inch of buying a house close to MTRP/Cowles precisely so that I could have a few good rides from the front door: Cowles, Spring/Oak, and then Mast Blvd Up to Sycamore. I'd be pretty angry right now if I had. Of course, all the rancho san diego trails that I ride could easily succumb to the same fate tomorrow since few of them are legit.
Actually, D man, we reached that point way back before Pardee bulldozed the western part of DMM, and the Tunnels area was a combination redneck rodeo dumpsite up top, and a migrant trash infested dump down below. After the mtb club cleaned most of it up, it became 'pristine', and thus prime 'mitigation' land for the atrocity just to the west.

We call that "progress" here in San Diego. And just in case you didn't know, we are "America's Finest City"! (Free swag for the first kid to say where that title came from!).

37. Originally Posted by Ray Raton
Actually, D man, we reached that point way back before Pardee bulldozed the western part of DMM, and the Tunnels area was a combination redneck rodeo dumpsite up top, and a migrant trash infested dump down below. After the mtb club cleaned most of it up, it became 'pristine', and thus prime 'mitigation' land for the atrocity just to the west.

We call that "progress" here in San Diego. And just in case you didn't know, we are "America's Finest City"! (Free swag for the first kid to say where that title came from!).
It'a a fine line between aristocracy and atrocity!

Pete Wilson, Bob Filner, Ronnie Raygun, or The Kumeyaay People...what did I win?

38. I think the word you're looking for is "traveshamockery."

39. Originally Posted by Ray Raton

We call that "progress" here in San Diego. And just in case you didn't know, we are "America's Finest City"! (Free swag for the first kid to say where that title came from!).

HA! Softball....

We were voted AFC by Forbes or the likes over 30 years ago. While we have long fallen from that contention, we have desperately clung on to it to keep the tourist economy alive and well.

**Edit**

Ah, the Republican Party Convention and a little bragging go a long way. To bad it took 20+ years to finally get the convention.....

40. That would be great...as long as your pro-active in the community as far as working with the Trails foundation, the USFS, Big Bear Cycling and the other organizations that are totally into building new trails, re-opening closed trails( the trails that were trails, not the skid mark fall line trails) and working with all trail users. Went to a trails meeting last night up here, there is going to $750,000 over the next five years to build and maintain trails up here....some pretty exciting stuff! Sorry down in SD that you guys having such problems. 41. Originally Posted by random walk San Diego mountain biking news lately feels like Well played. 42. Originally Posted by bankerboy HA! Softball.... We were voted AFC by Forbes or the likes over 30 years ago. While we have long fallen from that contention, we have desperately clung on to it to keep the tourist economy alive and well. **Edit** Ah, the Republican Party Convention and a little bragging go a long way. To bad it took 20+ years to finally get the convention..... Good second effort! I was actually here for the humiliation! It was actually pretty funny. 43. Saw a new "no public access" sign at the bottom entrance to Grassy Knoll. RIP, I liked that climb. Oh and this at the entrance. 44. hot laps on the visitors center loop, 8am on Saturday mornings? 45. Originally Posted by ocd hot laps on the visitors center loop, 8am on Saturday mornings? Too steep, off-camber and technical...only those who watched those Charles Bronson movies in the 70s are fools enough to attempt it. Plus, I hear there is mountain lion nearby. 46. spotted a sign at the top of L1/toete last night, "No public access", no sign at the bottom though. 47. Brought my bike to work today with plans of riding out there tonight. Is there any type of enforcement going on? Guess I'll just scrap my plans and ride up and down Florida Canyon. What a joke this has become! 48. Originally Posted by random walk I think the word you're looking for is "traveshamockery." Should I be prosecuted for riding Some Trails Further Up, I'll rest easy knowing that Woody Allen has already written my closing argument for me: "It's a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of two mockeries of a sham. I move for a mistrial, do you realize there is not a single homosexual on that jury?" 49. ## Re: Spring canyon, the party is over Originally Posted by Carloswithac Saw a new "no public access" sign at the bottom entrance to Grassy Knoll. There's a sign at the top too. And someone put some rocks in the middle of the trail for about the first 10ft, I'm assuming to deter anyone from ignoring the sign. I guess they don't realize some people prefer the additional challenge riding on a trail with rocks affords... 50. Here is a nice little quote from mtrp.org: "Chris Zirkle, Deputy Director of the City of San Diego’s Open Space Division, provided some background to help clarify the matter. We are not closing trails since the city has never officially opened and/or authorized the trails. Initially, Park Rangers will be restoring unauthorized trails that were constructed since 2010. Additional restoration efforts are pending." Makes perfect sense right? Since the trails were never "opened" officially they can't officially be "Closed" So they are being "restored" Where the **** do they find the people that write this shit? Why don't you just say you are erasing any unauthorized trails? 51. Originally Posted by ocd hot laps on the visitors center loop, 8am on Saturday mornings? Honestly, until someone organizes this, and people to stand there and hand out fliers to all the oblivious trail users who have no idea what is going on, nothing is going to happen. You need to show all the strolling families, joggers, walkers, etc what shared trail usage is going to look like once all the best trails are off limits and the entire user base is confined to a small area. The pain on the majority is the only thing that will cause action. No matter how good a case a few select MTBer's present at public hearings, it is mob action and voice that gets those at the top to listen. 52. Originally Posted by sandmangts Here is a nice little quote from mtrp.org: "Chris Zirkle, Deputy Director of the City of San Diego’s Open Space Division, provided some background to help clarify the matter. We are not closing trails since the city has never officially opened and/or authorized the trails. Initially, Park Rangers will be restoring unauthorized trails that were constructed since 2010. Additional restoration efforts are pending." Makes perfect sense right? Since the trails were never "opened" officially they can't officially be "Closed" So they are being "restored" Where the **** do they find the people that write this shit? Why don't you just say you are erasing any unauthorized trails? Politicians have to start and hone their spin somewhere...these guys will move onward and upward....and someday, if "we're" lucky, they'll be Congressmen! 53. Originally Posted by Klurejr Honestly, until someone organizes this, and people to stand there and hand out fliers to all the oblivious trail users who have no idea what is going on, nothing is going to happen. You need to show all the strolling families, joggers, walkers, etc what shared trail usage is going to look like once all the best trails are off limits and the entire user base is confined to a small area. The pain on the majority is the only thing that will cause action. No matter how good a case a few select MTBer's present at public hearings, it is mob action and voice that gets those at the top to listen. Critical mass style, lets do it. Lets pick a day that will see heavy use by other user groups. I am a member of a meetup group that I am sure I could get 10-25 riders involved. 54. Originally Posted by sandmangts Critical mass style, lets do it. Lets pick a day that will see heavy use by other user groups. I am a member of a meetup group that I am sure I could get 10-25 riders involved. I'm in. I live 1/2 mile from the Visitor Center so I can make just about any date and time that is set. 55. Originally Posted by sandmangts Critical mass style, lets do it. Lets pick a day that will see heavy use by other user groups. I am a member of a meetup group that I am sure I could get 10-25 riders involved. Bad idea. Large gatherings like that never turn out for the cause. They just piss alot of people off and give the riders a bad rep. Critical Mass and groups alike were designed to bring the spotlight to safety for riders. Here in SD, Critical Mass likes to ride down the middle of the Gas Lamp at night with no lights, safety protection or obey any laws. Let's not associate with those dipshits. 56. Originally Posted by sandmangts Critical mass style, lets do it. Lets pick a day that will see heavy use by other user groups. I am a member of a meetup group that I am sure I could get 10-25 riders involved. It needs to happen, something like every other saturday at prime time, 10 am, noon, somewhere in that timeframe. Large ride on multi use trails with publicity. I counted 42 riders in Spring canyon on Sat AM in less than 45 minutes. Displace all of those riders into the park proper and let the cards fall where they may. The city's next step (if there unhappy with bikes riding legal trails)would be to say "we'll close the park to bikes". If that happens, the park is closed to bikes for simply riding their bikes... on perfectly legal trails. If that's the case, then what slight trails are lost would be lost with good cause. We, as a community, simply cannot sit and continue to accept this. If you do as a taxpayer, thanks for rolling over. The efforts put into a decent trails system are nearly nil. It isn't a funding issue. The next structure to be built in Mission trails (according to the 9/2013 CAC minutes) has now swollen to 2,000,000. Two... million ... dollars. But there isn't funding for an EIR, for CEQA or for anything remotely related to providing resources for large user groups in the park? It's simple and it's easy. What hasn't worked in the past, isn't going to work now or in the future. I'm not sure what the long term solution is but it's relatively clear, what's been the "standard" isn't working so where do we go from here? 57. Originally Posted by Island20v Bad idea. Large gatherings like that never turn out for the cause. They just piss alot of people off and give the riders a bad rep. Critical Mass and groups alike were designed to bring the spotlight to safety for riders. Here in SD, Critical Mass likes to ride down the middle of the Gas Lamp at night with no lights, safety protection or obey any laws. Let's not associate with those dipshits. I do not agree. People need to see what will happen to all the MTB riders when the trails we like to ride waaaay out away from all the walkers and joggers are forced back into a small area. Mountain Biking is not on the decline, we are not in the minority. 58. Originally Posted by Island20v Bad idea. Large gatherings like that never turn out for the cause. They just piss alot of people off and give the riders a bad rep. Critical Mass and groups alike were designed to bring the spotlight to safety for riders. Here in SD, Critical Mass likes to ride down the middle of the Gas Lamp at night with no lights, safety protection or obey any laws. Let's not associate with those dipshits. True critical mass riders piss people off. But in this case spotlighting the amount of riders that are interested in riding Mission Trails is important. Especially with the new trails plan about to be released. We will just have to be sure to do it in a polite, non-douchebag manner. It is important for other visitors to know that if we can't ride out there legally we will be sharing the crowded trails with them. Lets let them know that we are a legitimate and active group that does more volunteer trail work than any other group. Continuing to ignore our needs will not pass. 59. ## Spring canyon, the party is over It does seem like the time for protest and collective action has come. Playing the insider's game and trying to build capital with decision makers has simply gotten the MTB community nowhere at MTRP. Even if they close all the trails to bikes at this point, one could hardly call it a loss since there are so few real trails there anyway (with the exception of Cowles). The place is just a joke, for bikes at least, and we aren't being listened to. 60. Originally Posted by sandmangts True critical mass riders piss people off. But in this case spotlighting the amount of riders that are interested in riding Mission Trails is important. Especially with the new trails plan about to be released. We will just have to be sure to do it in a polite, non-douchebag manner. It is important for other visitors to know that if we can't ride out there legally we will be sharing the crowded trails with them. Lets let them know that we are a legitimate and active group that does more volunteer trail work than any other group. Continuing to ignore our needs will not pass. If approached tactfully it can work. The problem is getting 50+ people on the same page is easier said than done. 61. I'm just back from surveying the wreckage for myself. 6 signs on the Spring Canyon side alone, and no trail is too insignificant to be posted as out of bounds. Three Barrels is still open but given the minor trails they've shut down already, that's probably true only because they haven't got there yet. 62. smart phone apps. 63. Originally Posted by D_Man It does seem like the time for protest and collective action has come. Playing the insider's game and trying to build capital with decision makers has simply gotten the MTB community nowhere at MTRP. Even if they close all the trails to bikes at this point, one could hardly call it a loss since there are so few real trails there anyway (with the exception of Cowles). The place is just a joke, for bikes at least, and we aren't being listened to. This result should not come as a shock: the LPQ scene took all of the help the mtb riders would give, and then proceeded to kick them off all of the single track. Until recently, relatively speaking, you couldn't even ride on the N. side of the canyon at all. It was reserved for a few equestrians, and the hikers that could make it out to the falls. A very exclusive public open space. I've been saying for years that the helmet-in-hand, shuffling 'yassuh' approach to access was just what they wanted. They know EXACTLY how to deal with that. Certain types never learn to respect you, until you TEACH them to respect you. 64. Originally Posted by Ray Raton Certain types never learn to respect you, until you TEACH them to respect you. Like that one time I did a 9-year stretch in Folsom? 65. Originally Posted by RTSO2112 Like that one time I did a 9-year stretch in Folsom? Depends on what you were stretching! 66. Originally Posted by Canaan I'm just back from surveying the wreckage for myself. 6 signs on the Spring Canyon side alone, and no trail is too insignificant to be posted as out of bounds. Three Barrels is still open but given the minor trails they've shut down already, that's probably true only because they haven't got there yet. So from the SDMBA Trail News article on the closures, and the linked-to map (below), the implication is that only trails built after 2010 are being closed down, which would rule out 3B and L1 (not Teote). Originally Posted by SDMBA Trail News article So far the trails targeted are the most recent additions to the area. The trails known as Deer Dancer, the upper section of Teote and Grassy Knoll are targeted for closure and habitat rehabilitation, beginning with Deer Dancer. Is that consistent with what signage you saw? Also, from the map it also appears that the old way up from L1 (obsoleted by Teote) is considered a "pre-2010" trail and not subject to closure -- does that mean we can reclaim it? 67. Originally Posted by random walk So from the SDMBA Trail News article on the closures, and the linked-to map (below), the implication is that only trails built after 2010 are being closed down, which would rule out 3B and L1 (not Teote). Is that consistent with what signage you saw? Also, from the map it also appears that the old way up from L1 (obsoleted by Teote) is considered a "pre-2010" trail and not subject to closure -- does that mean we can reclaim it? Per the map, it looks like they are keeping open a lot of the trails I used to ride when I lived down there back in the 90s. How come Mr Toads is not on this map? Not saying there is or is not one there, but if there was... 68. Originally Posted by RTSO2112 How come Mr Toads is not on this map? Not saying there is or is not one there, but if there was... If I'm not mistaken, it is in the left corner, between Teote & Grassy Knoll (the part of the trail that's not on MCAS Miramar land). 69. Originally Posted by random walk If I'm not mistaken, it is in the left corner, between Teote & Grassy Knoll (the part of the trail that's not on MCAS Miramar land). Looking at the map, it seems like all is not lost then, after all? Or am I just reading the map wrong? 70. Originally Posted by Ray Raton Looking at the map, it seems like all is not lost then, after all? Or am I just reading the map wrong? I'm waiting for Canaan (and/or others) to chime in on where the signs are going up, besides the ones reported on GK & Teote. The map & article say one thing, but for all we know they're going to pave over the entire canyon with deadfall. 71. Shame to lose Grassy Knoll, it is a fun, well built, and sustainable trail. 72. Originally Posted by random walk So from the SDMBA Trail News article on the closures, and the linked-to map (below), the implication is that only trails built after 2010 are being closed down, which would rule out 3B and L1 (not Teote). Is that consistent with what signage you saw? From the article, I got the distinct feeling that they are starting with trails built after 2010 but that does not preclude previous built trails. I think they had documented those from the initial "East Elliot master plan" and were easier to identify. I will not be surprised that if they get the current set of trails successfully shut down, they will move on to the older trails. After all, all of us A-hole dirt bag pot smoking hippie anti environmentalists only ride these trails to kill plants and animals. We have to be evicted to save the warbling blue bellied sphincter. Of course everything will be fine because the East Elliot Master Plan allows for miles and miles of new single track where the warbling blue bellied sphincter already lives. This Is possible because they took the time to mitigate the horrific trail damage inflicted by trail users and it will be OK to kill off plant and animals in the new locations. Sounds like a great and successful plan. What could possibly go wrong? That is how it works, right? BTW, if the trails were not closed because they were never opened, how is it there is a sign that states “closed”???? 1984 – We are increasing your chocolate rations from 30 grams to 25 grams per week. 73. Originally Posted by bankerboy I think they had documented those from the initial "East Elliot master plan" and were easier to identify. according to a reliable source, the MTRP master plan update draft has already been released to "key parties". I don't believe mountain bikers are a key party. My questioned to the powers that be, of why/when the general public will see this draft have only been answered with "a week, maybe two" If it's truly a draft open for negotiations, I imagine it would be available for all. To the city folks reading this... people aren't going to up and stop riding bikes. What will they do? They will ride elsewhere... the cycle will repeat itself and you will waste more resources on herding cats. Easy peasy would be developing solid and sustainable trails plan and making it happen. 74. questions should be able to be answered by someone below (taken from the website). Among concerns: The lack of adequate trails Monies spent on off road bicycling activities (zero) Trails that do not exist but those trails are closed etc Organization Structure Stacey LoMedico, Park and Recreation Director 202 C Street MS 37C San Diego, CA 92101 (619) 236-6643 Assistant Director Andrew Field, (619) 235-1110 Developed Regional Parks Deputy Director Kathleen Hasenauer, (619) 235-1157 Balboa Park maintenance, public facilities management and special events Mission Bay Park maintenance and special events Presidio Hill maintenance and historic/cultural management Beach and shoreline park maintenance Citywide maintenance services including mowing, sweeping, aquatic features, park forestry and irrigation Park rangers serving Balboa Park, Mission Bay Park, Presidio Park and Chollas Lake Civic Dance Program Open Space Deputy Director Chris Zirkle, (619) 685-1350 General open space maintenance Brush management of City-owned open space Open Space Regional Parks: Mission Trails, Otay Valley, Tecolote, Marian Bear, Rose Canyon, Los Penasquitos and Black Mountain San Diego River Planning Support Citywide open space coordination Park Rangers serving open space parks MSCP (Multiple Species Conservation Program) compliance 75. Originally Posted by Island20v If approached tactfully it can work. The problem is getting 50+ people on the same page is easier said than done. If you park at the visitor center lot and ride the visitor center trails west to that gnarly fire road climb, the upper canyon has some VERY fun single track. I live 10 min from mission trails and that ride will be replacing spring/oak in the rotation. If we spread the word about the trails in the upper canyon to the displaced riders, we wont have to organize a thing.... there will simply be hundreds of riders invading the visitor center parking lot every weekend. Get riders used to riding there, and THEN organize pre or post ride tailgating. It would be very easy to politely but throughly take over the visitor center parking lot every single weekend. Squeaky wheels get grease. When Mtrp can not provide adequate parking for the events they schedule, they may rethink displacing the mountain bikers. But, and this is important, we have to get the word out that there is still a ride to be had in the park proper. Trying to organize a hang out for the sake of just making a point is doomed to failure. 76. Originally Posted by BigRingGrinder If we spread the word about the trails in the upper canyon to the displaced riders, we wont have to organize a thing.... there will simply be hundreds of riders invading the visitor center parking lot every weekend. Get riders used to riding there, and THEN organize pre or post ride tailgating. It would be very easy to politely but throughly take over the visitor center parking lot every single weekend. Squeaky wheels get grease. When Mtrp can not provide adequate parking for the events they schedule, they may rethink displacing the mountain bikers. This already took place in the past. It was when the BMX area was on top of the hill near the visitors ctr. According to one key volunteer "the bikers took up all the parking every weekend"... (you'd think that would be a sign of a successful park and that people should be happy). They closed that BMX area, or didn't close it because it didn't exist. However, at the time, a deal was struck (thanks to the head ranger at the time) to provide the Deerfield Quarry. An old video.. the BMXers used to own it 77. Originally Posted by ocd This already took place in the past. a deal was struck Yes, I cut a crap ton of your post.... but precedent has been set. Shut down the visitor center parking lot and they will deal. 78. Originally Posted by random walk I'm waiting for Canaan (and/or others) to chime in on where the signs are going up, besides the ones reported on GK & Teote. The map & article say one thing, but for all we know they're going to pave over the entire canyon with deadfall. The signage that I saw is pretty well consistent with that, with one exception -- the single track running north from the first brushed-in section has a sign to be read by southbound traffic at the L-1 trail head. Also, the little trail that drops down into the wash at that location and connects over to the fire road is also "signed" at the fire road. It looks to me like they're intent on keeping people off of the single track on the west side but are willing to permit people to ride the fire roads -- seems pretty consistent with the way the rest of the park is managed, right? 79. I rode the here yesterday, every single track on City property had either a sign or a lame brush pile. Trails on USMC property were the only ones not "closed" We saw the rangers moving up the canyon closing everything they saw. I can understand closing some trails and improve other trails, but to close all trails, yea that is just gonna make people ignore it. I saw a trail runner pretty much run around the rangers and continue his "illegal" running. 80. Ranger M was out this morning, 0630, big truck, blocking the high trail, deadfall, talking to people. Funny thing was on the asphalt "trail" a car had driven the wrong way and parked. Them 4 new hires will fix that problem though! 81. ## Spring canyon, the party is over Apparently, Nothing annoys the city more than an actual trail in or adjacent to "Mission Trails." 82. Originally Posted by ocd Ranger M was out this morning, 0630, big truck, blocking the high trail, deadfall, talking to people. Funny thing was on the asphalt "trail" a car had driven the wrong way and parked. Them 4 new hires will fix that problem though! He must be having the time of his life! 83. Originally Posted by Ray Raton He must be having the time of his life! 'I'll get those evil mtbers....and their little cogs, too!" 84. Originally Posted by RTSO2112 'I'll get those evil mtbers....and their little cogs, too!" ... 85. Originally Posted by cmdr.taggart . . . I can understand closing some trails and improve other trails, but to close all trails, yea that is just gonna make people ignore it. Yeap. Exactly. Like I posted a while ago about "giving" the crazy lady her part of The bottom of Deer Dancer. It's give and take. If the Feds and city close ALL the trails and don't leave some of it open, then everybody is just going to ignore ALL the posted closures. This will make things worse all around. I agree there are some trails that should never have been built because they cut through sensitive habitat. Example is DD and the squiggly single track from it to Teote along the west side of Spring. But there are others that they just now closed that have NO value for wildlife to nest upon. Perfect example is the short diagonal trail just north of the bridge. 86. Originally Posted by D_Man Apparently, Nothing annoys the city more than an actual trail in or adjacent to "Mission Trails." You mean "Missing Trail" 87. I think the trail users need to use SDMBA as the hub, so we are all on the same page, and know all the facts. With all our ducks in a row the trail users can have a huge impact. SDMBA can provide good direction going forward. They are working with IMBA on this issue. We need to time the impact and hit the City all at once. Flood the phone line, Flood the Mail boxes. I think the SDMBA meeting is important to attend. Wednesday, November 20 2013, 7:00pm - 9:30pm Mission Trails Regional Park One Father Junipero Serra Trail San Diego, CA 92119-1008 88. Originally Posted by leadmoto I think the trail users need to use SDMBA as the hub, so we are all on the same page, and know all the facts. With all our ducks in a row the trail users can have a huge impact. SDMBA can provide good direction going forward. They are working with IMBA on this issue. We need to time the impact and hit the City all at once. Flood the phone line, Flood the Mail boxes. I think the SDMBA meeting is important to attend. Wednesday, November 20 2013, 7:00pm - 9:30pm Mission Trails Regional Park One Father Junipero Serra Trail San Diego, CA 92119-1008 I'll be there. 89. From the Asante Patch..."The City has not developed a trail plan or effective management system for the area, and now the lack of structure means the City must demonstrate that they are effectively preventing destruction and enforcing policies based on commentary from federal state fish and wildlife agencies. If they do not, then the City may lose its developer-friendly MSCP." 90. Here is another quote from the Santee Patch article. "The City is not interested in developing trails that are dead-ends to private properties. A workable solution must be established with the small number of land owners in question." That is stupid. What the city must realize that for the recreational user in an open space preserve ALL trails are trails to nowhere because we are all going back to our cars when we are done. Trail riding, Hiking, Running and horseback riding has never been about getting from point A to point B. It is about the trip, not the destination. 91. I noticed 2 new posts in the ground(signs to follow) this morning at the entrance to L1 and the singletrack that parallels above spring canyon. Iron tread had no signs....yet!! I ran into 5 different riders that were on recon missions to see whats left after these #$%# tards finish "restoring" MT.

I have finally had enough of SD. Born and raised here and my work(commercial pilot) allows me to live anywhere I want. My wife and I left the coast years ago because of cost and our desire to surf had been crushed by the overcrowded lineups everywhere. Having found my love for mtn biking 8 years ago, we moved down the street from the MT visitors center as an alternative to the rat race living at the beach. Now I come home, gear up in my garage and I'm on the trails 10 minutes later. Now that reality is being crushed. Trying to decide where we want to live is exciting and I look forward to finding my little slice of heaven. Good luck to all who are trying to make a difference.....your gonna need it!!!!!

92. Originally Posted by sandmangts
Here is another quote from the Santee Patch article. "The City is not interested in developing trails that are dead-ends to private properties. A workable solution must be established with the small number of land owners in question."

That is stupid. What the city must realize that for the recreational user in an open space preserve ALL trails are trails to nowhere because we are all going back to our cars when we are done. Trail riding, Hiking, Running and horseback riding has never been about getting from point A to point B. It is about the trip, not the destination.
And yet I've heard this canard floated out over and over again by trails "officials" as some kind of unassailable dogma, one that only they have the ability to act on. They continue to use it, simply because it seems to work on audiences. It tends to stun those attending into silence. I think of it as the "WTF?" effect.

93. ## Posting on MTRP's Facebook page

(This is a Cross-post from another thread, but I think this thread is more focused on the specific issue of trail closures in Spring Canyon/MTRP.)

I've just posted a quick synopsis of the closures on the MTRP Facebook page, along with a link to this article in the Santee Patch. Sure, the FB comment may get removed shortly, but in the meantime maybe more people outside the MTB community will see it and become aware of this issue. I've also invited a lot of my MTBer friends on FB to "like" the MTRP page so they'll see comments like this pop up on their news feeds. The idea is to get the word out to as many people as possible, not just MTBers but hikers, trail runners, or anyone else who uses or appreciates MTRP.

If/when you write a comment, keep a copy (I just created a text document on my desktop) so if it gets deleted you can always go back and copy/paste it into another post.

94. I went for a recon ride this afternoon to see the latest. Took a few pictures of signs, etc., then rode up L1/Teote and down 3 Barrels. On the way back, at the Grasslands crossing, I came upon Ranger Mika (Ranger Mel's associate) and had a nice, friendly chat with her. She'd been out in the area most of the day, she said, talking to various groups of bikers and hikers that passed by. Said she had talked to around 20 different groups and everyone was surprisingly friendly. I was very friendly as well, but emphasized that I was NOT happy with the closures. She had a map showing the various trails in red, yellow, and green, and explained that the red ones were the first slated to be "rehabilitated". Those were Deer Dancer; the connector trail (don't know the name) from the east end of Deer Dancer over to L1; Teote (just the top part connecting the upper end of L1 to the ridge); and Grassy Knoll. She said that Ranger Mel was putting in the signs, and the artistic placement of deadfall on the rehabbed trails was being done by either Urban Corps crews or Parolee crews. All at the direction of their superiors - just following orders, etc. She had a second map overlaid with data points from a city biologist (not CDFW, she said) showing various locations of endangered species. She mentioned that there was supposed to be a 100' (or was it 100 yard?) bubble of undisturbed space around these sites.

So, I explained a few things to her. Mountain Bikers LOVE something called "singletrack" - trails that are only about 18" wide. MTBers LOVE staying ON the trails, riding in single file and not stopping if possible. Their rubber tires leave nothing but a light tread print on the trails. There can be plenty of endangered foo-foo bush or whatever just a few feet off the trail and it will never be disturbed by MTBers. In fact, the map she had actually provided plenty of evidence to that effect - endangered plants have been spotted right next to trails that have been there for DECADES, and they appear to be doing just fine.

I also pointed out that when they close trails, the MTBers don't just go away. Some will continue to ride the closed trails (but going around all that beautiful deadfall, creating new trails), and some will move into the central part of the park and ride on the trails/roads/stroller paths right alongside the hikers. Same with the trail runners. By closing the popular MTB trails, they're increasing user density in other areas. The ideal place for MTBers and trail runners is out o\in the more remote areas (like Spring/Oak) - once you get a mile or so away from a trailhead, the potential for conflict with the hordes of casual hikers goes down drastically. You can expect the MTB traffic on the Visitor Center Loop trail to increase. In fact, I started my ride there today (probably only the second time I've ridden it, because, well... it's just to gnarly for me, I guess

She was very receptive and willing to listen to my comments, although I don't know if it will do any good. She and Mel aren't policymakers, they're just there to carry out orders that are handed down to them. But what the heck, it made me feel better to tell her this stuff.

So, here's what the current round of signs is looking like:

Deadfall on the trail just north of the 52 bridge:

Sign at the base of L1, facing back the way I just came:

Signpost (but no sign) looking up toward L1:

Another one, on the "high trail" that continues north up Spring parallel to the main canyon:

The connector trail coming in to L1 from the bottom of Deer Dancer:

No signs up here (yet):

95. LT Cawley, LTCOL North, Eichmann, and LCPL Downey, were only "following orders", too!

96. Originally Posted by RTSO2112
LT Cawley, LTCOL North, Eichmann, and LCPL Downey, were only "following orders", too!
I actually met one of those characters in my former life, as an "independent contractor" for the DOD and the State Dept. He was as two-faced as they come. A bully AND a coward, a true disgrace to the uniform he wore.

97. I moved away from SD a year and a half ago. I have rode that trail many times and as someone stated there are three other ways in through there. So Sandmangst said early on in this thread he's done with SD why is that? Are there other trail closing's going on around SD county other than Missing Trails?

98. Originally Posted by Ray Raton
I actually met one of those characters in my former life, as an "independent contractor" for the DOD and the State Dept. He was as two-faced as they come. A bully AND a coward, a true disgrace to the uniform he wore.
Well...
it couldn't be Cawley, as he was actually just following the orders of the day.
it couldn't be Eichmann...for obvious reasons.
it couldn't be Downey, he was one of "a few good men!"
So, it had to be LTCOL Ollie North...cuz he is a douchebag of the highest order!

She was very receptive and willing to listen to my comments, although I don't know if it will do any good. She and Mel aren't policymakers, they're just there to carry out orders that are handed down to them. But what the heck, it made me feel better to tell her this stuff.
They might not be policy makers, but if they continue to get the same message from everyone, and then see the truth of it in the results, they have better access to speak up the chain about it.

No signs up here (yet):

Of Course not, it is much too pristine!!!!!

There is a cool switch back climb out in Calavera "Preserve" just below the damn that I used to love riding. They put up signs saying it was being rehabilitated, but people just went around them. They put up fencing but people cut it down. They finally put a ton of dead-fall on the fence and it has remain un-disturbed for a few months.

The biggest joke about this trail it is runs right by some old farm house ruins, a GIANT half of a rusted barrel thing about 20 feet long, and a ton of broken glass from kids or homeless drinking down there. IMHO -you cannot close down a trail for rehabilitation and just expect the Rusted trash and crap out there to clean itself up. What a joke.

100. Originally Posted by DIRTJUNKIE
I moved away from SD a year and a half ago. I have rode that trail many times and as someone stated there are three other ways in through there. So Sandmangst said early on in this thread he's done with SD why is that? Are there other trail closing's going on around SD county other than Missing Trails?
Yeah there are several other trail closures in progress. That among other things has influenced my decision to leave but the main factor is the cost of living here. My job allows me the ability to work in any state with the same salary.

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