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  1. #1
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    SB riders beware

    If any of you heard the story about the horse killed on Cold Springs, you know whate I'm talking about. For those you who didn't, let me fill you in: about a week ago, a woman and her daughter were riding their horse on Cold Springs trail in Santa Barbara. Two young kids on bikes and their dad, who the mom claimed charged up on her (the dad of the two boys says they stopped well in advance), spooked the horse, causing it to fall off the trail and break its back. The woman and her daughter were injury free. After several hours of pain, the horse died.

    This present a serious predicament for the already fragile Santa Barbara trail situation. So, those of you who regularly ride in the SB area, be sure to bring a bell, and attack it to you bike (not you bag or pants) so it will ring audibly. Also be especially courteous to the hikers which you meet. Hopefully this incident will not result in the banning of bikes on the frontcountry trails.

  2. #2
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    There is room for it all, just ride what you like to on what you like to...that's freeriding. -rbn14



  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBDHrida
    If any of you heard the story about the horse killed on Cold Springs, you know whate I'm talking about. For those you who didn't, let me fill you in: about a week ago, a woman and her daughter were riding their horse on Cold Springs trail in Santa Barbara. Two young kids on bikes and their dad, who the mom claimed charged up on her (the dad of the two boys says they stopped well in advance), spooked the horse, causing it to fall off the trail and break its back. The woman and her daughter were injury free. After several hours of pain, the horse died.

    This present a serious predicament for the already fragile Santa Barbara trail situation. So, those of you who regularly ride in the SB area, be sure to bring a bell, and attack it to you bike (not you bag or pants) so it will ring audibly. Also be especially courteous to the hikers which you meet. Hopefully this incident will not result in the banning of bikes on the frontcountry trails.
    It just proves that horses should stick to their natural environment - plains. Horses don't belong on mountains any more than seals do.

  4. #4
    Just another Homer
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacman
    It just proves that horses should stick to their natural environment - plains. Horses don't belong on mountains any more than seals do.

    Nor do people belong on horses backs. It's animal abuse plain and simple and don't let them tell you otherwise.
    I may not be as good as I once was.
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    look into this a little closer. ull find like a 4 page thread about this about a month ago.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBinJammin
    look into this a little closer. ull find like a 4 page thread about this about a month ago.
    Sorry about that. The first time I hear about the incident was in the SB news press about a week before posting this. I guess others heard about it earlier.

  7. #7
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    horses suck. they ALWAYS get "spooked". and then the owns get mad at you.and they don't even pick up the poop ...stupid.

    running into mountain cows is way better than running it to a horse on the trail. they don't get spooked, they just keep walking. crazy cows.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pain Freak
    Nor do people belong on horses backs. It's animal abuse plain and simple and don't let them tell you otherwise.
    I'm sorry, but I don't buy this argument. Man has used horses since at least 2000BC. The unequivocal date of (1) domestication and (2) use as a means of transport dates to no earlier than circa 2000 BC, evidenced by the Sintashta chariot burials.

    If you look at the weight ratio, a 1000lb horse carrying a 200 pound riders is the equivalent of a human carrying a 40lb backpack, which is nothing.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit Fox
    I'm sorry, but I don't buy this argument. Man has used horses since at least 2000BC. The unequivocal date of (1) domestication and (2) use as a means of transport dates to no earlier than circa 2000 BC, evidenced by the Sintashta chariot burials.

    If you look at the weight ratio, a 1000lb horse carrying a 200 pound riders is the equivalent of a human carrying a 40lb backpack, which is nothing.
    And if you were hot and tired and you derived no pleasure from it, would you do it? A 40 pound pack can get pretty heavy. Thats right you wouldn't. You can try any way you want to say it's not animal abuse,but deep down you know it is.
    Because we've done something wrong for 4,000 years, then that makes it right? Have you ever watched horses run free? You can't honestly say after watching that, that they should have a human riding on them.
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  10. #10
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    just plain bad for all parties......really the trail is very hard on a horse
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  11. #11
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    Okay, I gotta chime in here. I own three horses and I also love mountain biking (my son rides). My horse absolutely LOVES me riding him on trail, and riding horses is not abuse. Whenever we go out, my horse prances and jigs and wants to go as far as possible. The minute I turn him back towards home, he drops his head and starts dragging his feet like it's the last thing he wants to do. I have even considered taking my horse to one of the Fontana events and taking pictures from horseback instead of in the brush. I have also ridden my horse while my kids ride along on their bikes. It was great!

    We have come across many bikers and generally it is not a big deal - when the biker makes his presence known. The problems occur when bikers charge up on horses without calling out or wearing a bell. You have to understand the horse mentality. Horses are prey animals (humans are predators), so anything that approaches a horse quickly and quietly will make that horse spook. It doesn't matter how well trained the horse is - if he feels his life is in danger, his fight or flight response will kick in, and the horse will either run off, which can cause a bad wreck, or he'll kick your teeth in. Some horses will turn and rear up at whatever spooks them, and you need to know that a horse can hurt you with his back feet, but he will kill you with his front feet.

    Horses backs are designed to carry weight, and they do not feel the fatigue we humans feel when we carry a pack all day. Humans and horses can not be compared because humans were not made to carry packs on our backs.

    I have watched many, many horses run free, they are beautiful and are called "drinkers of the wind". But just because they look so beautiful running without a rider, don't believe that they don't enjoy the companionship they have with good owners. Trust me on this: if a horse didn't want anyone to ride him, there is no way possible for a human to stay on his back or control him with a bit in his mouth.

    All you have to do is be considerate of others. Yield to the horse. When I am riding and come up on a blind curve, I always call out ahead so I don't cause an unaware biker to crash. I have surprised quite a few and they were more startled than my horse was.

    Attaching a bell to your bike is not a new idea. People have been using bells to warn others of their approach since 800 BC. Here's an interesting link http://classicbells.com/Info/History/History.htm

    Hope this gives you food for thought.

    PhotoMom

    Quote Originally Posted by Pain Freak
    And if you were hot and tired and you derived no pleasure from it, would you do it? A 40 pound pack can get pretty heavy. Thats right you wouldn't. You can try any way you want to say it's not animal abuse,but deep down you know it is.
    Because we've done something wrong for 4,000 years, then that makes it right? Have you ever watched horses run free? You can't honestly say after watching that, that they should have a human riding on them.
    Last edited by PhotoMom; 01-03-2006 at 08:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapwithtom
    If you start a race confident you'll podium, you're a sandbagger.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhotoMom
    My horse absolutely LOVES me riding him on trail, and riding horses is not abuse. Whenever we go out, my horse prances and jigs and wants to go as far as possible. The minute I turn him back towards home, he drops his head and starts dragging his feet like it's the last thing he wants to do.

    Horses backs are designed to carry weight, and they do not feel the fatigue we humans feel when we carry a pack all day. Humans and horses can not be compared because humans were not made to carry packs on our backs.

    I have watched many, many horses run free, they are beautiful and are called "drinkers of the wind". But just because they look so beautiful running without a rider, don't believe that they don't enjoy the companionship they have with good owners. Trust me on this: if a horse didn't want anyone to ride him, there is no way possible for a human to stay on his back or control him with a bit in his mouth...

    PhotoMom
    Hi, PM. Your reply is well written and your intentions are good and I'm sure you treat your horses well. But I must agree with Pain Freak on this one.

    You write that your horse loves it when you take him out, but he hates it when you make him go home. Why? Because when you two are leaving home, he feels free, and we all feel good when we are free. He hates turning back because where does he end up? Behind a fence? In a stall in a stable? In horse prison? Granted, that is treating a horse very well in human terms. But would your horse be happier in that stable or outside running free? Think from the horse's perspective.

    Horses were designed to carry weight? Huh? A horse is ideal for carrying a person if you think in human terms. I doubt any horse thinks that.

    Your horse loves having you on his back and if he didn't want you or anyone to ride him, no one would or could? Well, did your horse love having someone on his back from Day 1, or was he broken to accept someone on his back? How long did that take? Was he happy back then?

    I didn't want to post this because I didn't want to call you out or show you up. But as Pain Freak pointed out and I completely agree, deep down you know what's true. I've had many opportunities to ride a horse in the past and I turned down every offer. I don't think it's right. But I wouldn't jeer you or insult you if I saw you riding your horse on the trail.
    Hug the Bunny

  13. #13
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    PhotoMom

    I won't take issue with any of your comments about horses except where horses should be. Out on the plains - sure. On a rocky mountain side - no. Do horses in the wild climb mountains? You'll find them out in the open where a prey animal can see approaching predators and can run in any direction. If horses belong on mountain trails why do you have to provide them with steel toes? All they do is damage the trails. Look at Yosemite where the pack animals grind granite into dust with their steel shoes.

    Prove me wrong by running your horse shoeless.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacman
    I won't take issue with any of your comments about horses except where horses should be. Out on the plains - sure. On a rocky mountain side - no. Do horses in the wild climb mountains? You'll find them out in the open where a prey animal can see approaching predators and can run in any direction. If horses belong on mountain trails why do you have to provide them with steel toes? All they do is damage the trails. Look at Yosemite where the pack animals grind granite into dust with their steel shoes.

    Prove me wrong by running your horse shoeless.
    Many domesticated horses need shoes, because their hoofs are too brittle. I own two horses, and both have front shoes. Without shoes, their front feet crack and split, on dry flat ground, let alone rocky trails. I think man has weakened the domesticated horse's hoof, when you compare it to a wild horse's hoof http://www.barefoothorse.com/barefoot_HoofShape.html

    Regarding horses living in mountains, your incorrect. While most pictures of wild horses are on green plains, thet do in fact live in rocky mountainous terrain.
    http://www.blm.gov/az/whb/images/ltlharqph.jpg
    http://a1410.g.akamai.net/f/1410/163.../MA0169_2m.jpg
    Last edited by Kit Fox; 01-04-2006 at 08:35 AM.

  15. #15
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    New question here. Evolution doesn't occur overnight....

    Quote Originally Posted by PhotoMom

    Horses backs are designed to carry weight, and they do not feel the fatigue we humans feel when we carry a pack all day. Humans and horses can not be compared because humans were not made to carry packs on our backs.

    PhotoMom
    I'm really not trying to get religious here, so if anyone wants to debate evolution or Darwin, don't do it with me... BUT

    How were horses 'designed' to carry weight? Evolution occurs from an animal's need to adapt to its natural surroundings in order for the fittest animals to contribute to the survival of the species. Over the course of the millions of years that horses evolved, how were their backs being loaded without human assistance? Clearly there was no need for horses to carry weight, and therefore no need for them to evolve into an animal 'designed' to carry weight. For horses to have evolved into an animal that was 'designed' to carry weight on their backs, would have required them to have a need to carry weight on their backs, and until the first human saw the first horse, I'm pretty sure their backs hadn't been loaded up... and at that point a horse was already a horse, of course.

    No doubt now that humans have BRED domesticated horses to have stronger backs, sort of creating our own 'design', that doesn't make it right. Humans used to breed the biggest strongest people to be slaves also.

    So basically, humans saw an animal that we could use for our purposes, not that was 'designed' to be our transportation, and when that occured thousands of years ago it was out of necessity. Now that technology has improved and we no longer 'need' horses for transportation, carrying, or working to make our world operate... the only use for them is human recreation and amusement, horse riding and racing.

    At least the person riding on the trail is there on free will. Horse back riders are there because they are too lazy to get there under their own power. Just because horses were 'invented' before bikes doesn't mean that they are suitable for todays trail use. We don't see them on freeways or streets (without blinders on, so they won't get spooked).

    I also find it interesting that all the horse people admit to the main reason they should not have a horse on tight, technical strails... horses by nature are NOT DESIGNED for this, they are a prey animal that gets spooked... why would you want to be on a side of mountain, precariously perched atop an animal that can and will get spooked and cause injury or loss of life to itself, its rider, or a someone nearby?

    All other trail users don't occupy the whole trail and can pass each other freely in tight quarters... add a horse into the mix and the trail unpassable without a lot of space... whether on foot or on bike.

    And don't even get me started on the trail damage caused by a hoofed animal that weights thousands of pounds.

    Yes bikers need to take care and ride responsibly, I'm not trying to make an argument in support of the idiot bikers out there that bomb blindly down trails.

  16. #16
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    ever seen dogs mate? it's the same for horses...

    not a fan of the horsey set, but ignoramouses on bikes can be as bad or worse; no consideration for other people, much less horsies.

  17. #17
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    Pacman,

    Actually, as a rule, I do not shoe my horse. He's from an area in northern California called Devil's Garden (in Alturas). Some of you may have heard of it as there is a bike trail up there. Anyway, the elevation is about 5,000 feet and extremely rugged and rocky.

    PhotoMom

    Quote Originally Posted by pacman
    I won't take issue with any of your comments about horses except where horses should be. Out on the plains - sure. On a rocky mountain side - no. Do horses in the wild climb mountains? You'll find them out in the open where a prey animal can see approaching predators and can run in any direction. If horses belong on mountain trails why do you have to provide them with steel toes? All they do is damage the trails. Look at Yosemite where the pack animals grind granite into dust with their steel shoes.

    Prove me wrong by running your horse shoeless.
    http://www.JodyGomez.com Someone please teach me to shoot!

    Quote Originally Posted by rapwithtom
    If you start a race confident you'll podium, you're a sandbagger.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by crashdang
    Hi, PM. Your reply is well written and your intentions are good and I'm sure you treat your horses well. But I must agree with Pain Freak on this one.

    You write that your horse loves it when you take him out, but he hates it when you make him go home. Why? Because when you two are leaving home, he feels free, and we all feel good when we are free. He hates turning back because where does he end up? Behind a fence? In a stall in a stable? In horse prison? Granted, that is treating a horse very well in human terms. But would your horse be happier in that stable or outside running free? Think from the horse's perspective.

    Horses were designed to carry weight? Huh? A horse is ideal for carrying a person if you think in human terms. I doubt any horse thinks that.

    Your horse loves having you on his back and if he didn't want you or anyone to ride him, no one would or could? Well, did your horse love having someone on his back from Day 1, or was he broken to accept someone on his back? How long did that take? Was he happy back then?

    I didn't want to post this because I didn't want to call you out or show you up. But as Pain Freak pointed out and I completely agree, deep down you know what's true. I've had many opportunities to ride a horse in the past and I turned down every offer. I don't think it's right. But I wouldn't jeer you or insult you if I saw you riding your horse on the trail.
    Jerry,

    I understand and respect your position, and I don't feel like you're calling me out in any way. Your belief, though romantic, is not based on one ounce of fact. I don't feel like you've shown me up, instead, my first thought when I read your post was that some education is in order.

    Actually, I gentled and broke my horse myself, and he's never bucked a day in his life. He is kept in a large pasture with other horses, living as he would if he were free. As a matter of fact, he is a Mustang and I adopted from the BLM. He was a year old, born free, and totally wild when I adopted him. Truth be told, I have two mustangs and neither of them was any problem to train, nor did either of them fight me in any way. Ever. When I ride him, it is with a bridle called a side pull. The side pull is a simple piece of rope over his nose. There is no bit in his mouth, and no pressure on his face whatsoever. Even though my horses live in a pasture and are essentially "free", if the weather is bad, they are brought in and if necessary, blanketed to keep warm.

    I believe with every fiber of my being that my horses prefer their lives with me as opposed to running free. Why? Let's look at the horse's life as you believe it should be: At the turn of the century, an estimated two million wild horses roamed America's rangelands. By the 1950s, their population dropped to fewer than 20,000. Later, in order to increase profits from the sale of horses to slaughter houses, wild horses were rounded up by airplane and forced to run until they dropped from exhaustion. Public concern developed over falling populations and inhumane treatment by profiteers who captured and sold the animals for slaughter. This outcry prompted the Wild Horse and Burro Act to be passed in 1971 which prevented this abuse.

    Currently, there are about 32,000 wild horses and burros roaming on BLM-managed rangelands in 10 Western states. Wild horses and burros have virtually no natural predators (thanks to humans) and their herd sizes can double about every five years. Now because of our unchecked population growth, there is less and less land for these horses to live on, so that means more wild horses and less food to sustain them. This leads to suffering and death by starvation and lack of water, if disease doesn't get them first. Consider something called Colic. Colic is caused my many factors, but the most common cause is worm infestation from grazing. In an attempt to relieve themselves from the pain, a colicky horse will lay down and roll back and forth. However, since a horse's intestine is approximately 122 feet long, often the rolling and thrashing that accompanies colic results in the intestine becoming twisted. If immediate care is not recieved, the horse will die a torturous death, and if he's lucky, his intestine won't explode before he dies.

    Let's not forget injury. What about the unfortunate animal that finds itself on a highway in the path of an oncoming car? Or the animal that breaks his leg and suffers for days before he eventually dies? Or the animal that cuts himself and dies weeks later from a festering infected wound that has turned into blood poisoning. If starvation, injury, or disease isn't enough, what about natural disasters like wildfire or floods? What about the seasons? You think these horses like fending for themselves when it's 40 below and they have to dig through the ice and snow until their hooves are bloody just to find a mouthful of food or water, only to die of starvation anyway?

    While I absolutely agree with you that there are too many horses are abused (as are every animal), I can't for one minute believe that if horse's could choose for themselves, they would choose the life above over a life that includes vet care, regular feed, companionship, safety, care and maintenance, and love that comes with living with humans. Your idealism regarding the horse would be perfect if our country were not in the state it is today. There is simply nowhere for the horse to live his life as it should be, since humans have effectively screwed that up for the range animals.

    I don't know all the anatomical details that allow horses to carry our weight, but I do know that riding a horse is not abuse. If the horse were in pain, there is no way he would allow us on his back. Think about it logically - my horse weighs 1200 pounds. I weigh 130 pounds. I'm an afterthought. Besides that, anything that our good Lord does is not wrong, and He rode while walking on this earth and will return on the back of a horse (sorry guys, not a bicycle) - but that's a whole other conversation that is not appropriate for this thread.

    While I am not interested in debating this subject, I will extend you an invitation to come see my (formaly wild) horses for yourself. I guarantee there is no way you could spend anytime with my horses and think they aren't perfectly happy right where they are. Remember, they know what it's like to be free.

    :~)
    PhotoMom
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapwithtom
    If you start a race confident you'll podium, you're a sandbagger.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by burner
    At least the person riding on the trail is there on free will. Horse back riders are there because they are too lazy to get there under their own power.
    Ever try riding a horse on trail?? It works every muscle in your body and you are exhausted after a day-long ride on horseback. If you're not extremely fit, you will be sore in muscles you didn't know you had. As for me, when I'm not riding, I photograph downhill mountain biking. Which means I HIKE the trails you guys ride while carrying all my camera gear on my back. Oh yeah, since I'm trying to avoid being killed by a biker who's hauling ass, I don't get the benefit of staying on the trail. So I have to walk on the rocks or climb over the fallen trees as was the case in Park City last year. Usually during a race weekend, I hike up and down the mountain several times. I hiked Deer Valley four times in two days, Brianhead five times, and Mammoth countless times. I have had mountain bikers tell me they couldn't hike the mountains they ride...so I don't think lazy would be an adequate description.

    I'm not bragging. I'm just trying to get you to think before you stereotype people.

    PhotoMom
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapwithtom
    If you start a race confident you'll podium, you're a sandbagger.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhotoMom
    I understand and respect your position, and I don't feel like you're calling me out in any way. Your belief, though romantic, is not based on one ounce of fact. I don't feel like you've shown me up, instead, my first thought when I read your post was that some education is in order.
    A well formulated reply, but probably all for naught. Ignorance can not always be corrected, especially in the herd mentality that is prevalent in MTBR. I'm sure none of your detractors have ever seen wild mustang bones or a corpse while riding, let alone a live herd. Herds of loudmouths on bicycles tend to frighten off wild herds of any animal.

  21. #21
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    KarateChicken,

    I'm sure you're probably right about my efforts being all for naught. But, if there's one person (biker, hiker, or equestrian) that learned anything, then it is worth it.

    Thanks! :~)

    PhotoMom

    Quote Originally Posted by KarateChicken
    A well formulated reply, but probably all for naught. Ignorance can not always be corrected, especially in the herd mentality that is prevalent in MTBR. I'm sure none of your detractors have ever seen wild mustang bones or a corpse while riding, let alone a live herd. Herds of loudmouths on bicycles tend to frighten off wild herds of any animal.
    http://www.JodyGomez.com Someone please teach me to shoot!

    Quote Originally Posted by rapwithtom
    If you start a race confident you'll podium, you're a sandbagger.

  22. #22
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    horses have big weiners...hee hee hee... weiners.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjammin
    horses have big weiners...hee hee hee... weiners.
    Yup we're all a bit dumberer for that...see what you've done

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by hbfrdh1
    Yup we're all a bit dumberer for that...see what you've done
    dunberer...hee hee hee....dumberer...

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