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  1. #1
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    Rancho Penasquitons - Trail Conditions 12/18

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    Last edited by moldau94; 12-19-2009 at 11:28 PM.

  2. #2
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    Went by there today and they are still
    closed. It looked pretty muddy in some of
    the areas I could see from the ball field
    parking lot. I will be road riding till things
    dry out.

    Best, John

  3. #3
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    I don't know the exact conditions of the trail but they are still closed. You can check yourself here.

    http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/parks/news.html

  4. #4
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    Likewise with Sycamore Santee/Poway. Closed.

    Looks like ATT is the best post rain/mud free riding for "local" e.county riders.

  5. #5
    ocd
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    Called yesterday, was told they are open

    except for "a few single track trails"

    Call the # on the website, there are updates if no one answers.

  6. #6
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    Ranger Gina says PQ is open; the DMM fire road is closed to protect the vernal pools (I had not realized that "vernal pool" == "puddle", silly me) but the north and south trails are good.
    Sycamore and Wagon Wheel crossings are open although care is needed to avoid wet feet. Little Wimea is good.

    There are temporary bridges on the horse trail from PQ to I-15, the TCT is in good shape.
    Further east, TW trails are rutted but very rideable (for XC at least).

  7. #7
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    the west end parking lot on sorrento valley bld has been open the last day or so

  8. #8
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    Forget the boring PQ Preserve. I rode Santa Luz and Black Mtn. trails this morning. Conditions are perfect. Tight, tacky, no dust.
    If not biking, then what?

  9. #9
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    Or park at the end of Camino del Sur by the Mobile gas station, and ride the tunnels! They are in great shape! The other 10+ riders there yesterday could vouch for it too!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by S:Drive
    Or park at the end of Camino del Sur by the Mobile gas station, and ride the tunnels! They are in great shape! The other 10+ riders there yesterday could vouch for it too!
    Brilliant

    Planning on robbing any banks while you are at it? It is probably a good place to post it too!

    Change your post.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy
    Brilliant

    Planning on robbing any banks while you are at it? It is probably a good place to post it too!

    Change your post.



    Sabotage. No bueno. Agreed.

  12. #12
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    I am with S:drive, I rode there the other day too! That trail rocks!

  13. #13
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    Jeezuz Christ, some people just CAN'T keep their f***ing pieholes shut, can they?
    Does it make you feel like a big guy to stick it to The Man and then boast about it here? How about you stick it to The Man QUIETLY?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcadbiker
    Jeezuz Christ, some people just CAN'T keep their f***ing pieholes shut, can they?
    Does it make you feel like a big guy to stick it to The Man and then boast about it here? How about you stick it to The Man QUIETLY?
    You know I usually don't say much about this sort of thing but I will now. Oliver and S:drive, you two morons need to STFU. Do you two twits not realize that the people who want mountain bikes restricted from that area will surely read what you have posted here? They watch these forums and use your blatant disregard for authority as ammo against the rest of us who want to ride those trails legaly. Do you want fences to go up? Patrols? Tickets? It is one thing to poach but bragging about it here reflects poorly on all mountain bikers. Please edit your posts.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcadbiker
    Jeezuz Christ, some people just CAN'T keep their f***ing pieholes shut, can they?
    Does it make you feel like a big guy to stick it to The Man and then boast about it here? How about you stick it to The Man QUIETLY?
    Work on your issues, while I work on riding all the tunnel trails!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy
    Brilliant

    Planning on robbing any banks while you are at it? It is probably a good place to post it too!

    Change your post.
    Bad analogy! What a drama queen!

  17. #17
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    OK, bad analogy, I'll give you that.

    But understand this. These are currenly closed areas. We all know where the trails are. Why the hell would you openly post that you are poaching trails that are being fought over? What possible good can come of it?

    I am not passing judgement (read your pm), I would just think you would have the common sense not to publicly post your activities. Do you really think it will have no consequences? Just post responsibly. That is all I, and others, are asking.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  18. #18
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    At first glance, I would agree that we don’t need to advertise the riding of trails illegally, but what exactly ARE the consequences? I don’t think anybody really knows. Sure, some conjecture that it may negatively impact future legal access, but why? Is it because the folks sitting across the negotiating table are telling us this?

    If we play the nice guys, might we just finish last? What do we have in the way of leverage, anyway? Might Civil Disobedience in the form of open defiance be our most effective leverage, as well as a legitimate and possibly the most successful strategy? Wouldn’t Civil Disobedience and open defiance be more successful with more trail users, especially trail users who are responsible citizens, with families, careers and who own homes locally?

    Eventually, the LM wants to establish control of the area. Is the threat or use of Force the most effective and efficient strategy for the LM to gain control? Are threats and the use of Force just negotiating tactics? It seems that legalizing the status quo is the most beneficial outcome for trail users, and the most effective and efficient use of resources for the LM.

    So, shouldn’t all parties to the negotiation know the status quo?

  19. #19
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    I want the tunnels as bad as everyone else. If you want to write about it, then contact your local representatives. Since these are public boards it is very easy to hit the print button and now a simple post becomes ammunition for the other side. Don't believe it?

    The post below is about the Carrizo Gorge. The train tracks are currently abandoned. It is a very scenic ride. Yet somebody posted the dates of the rides and the railroad police magically appeared and issued trespassing tickets when in the past there was little or no enforcement.

    Carrizo Gorge Revisited

    About half way down....

    Busted!!! Well sorta...

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    There's a lesson here boys and girls. If you're planning on riding Carrizo Gorge DO NOT advertise it on MTBR.

    They were waiting for us this morning at Dos Cebezas (driving a military surplus OD Green Blazer by the way) to issue us an "Order to Stay Away from Premises". Here's my my own personal one for your viewing pleasure.



    All I am asking for is common sense when posting. I have seen it posted here before and laughed every time I see it but the statement is "Fight Club rules".

    If you don't know, watch the movie. It will make sense.
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  20. #20
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    BB quote: "I want legal trails as bad as everyone else. If you want to write about it, then contact your local representatives. Since these are public boards it is very easy to hit the print button and now a simple post becomes ammunition for the other side. Don't believe it?"

    How effective do you suppose the posts in question will be as ammunition, and as ammunition for what, reinforcing the closure of a closed trail?

    BB quote: "The post below is about the Carrizo Gorge. The train tracks are currently abandoned. It is a very scenic ride. Yet somebody posted the dates of the rides and the railroad police magically appeared and issued trespassing tickets when in the past there was little or no enforcement."

    Heh! That would be funny if someone started posting up fictitious rides. That'll wear 'em down.

    BB quote: "All I am asking for is common sense when posting. I have seen it posted here before and laughed every time I see it but the statement is "Fight Club rules".

    You're suggesting we model our behavior based on the movies?

  21. #21
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    Do what ever you want. I don't care anymore. I tried
    Apathy will get you exactly what you deserve

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing in Action
    At first glance, I would agree that we don’t need to advertise the riding of trails illegally, but what exactly ARE the consequences? I don’t think anybody really knows. Sure, some conjecture that it may negatively impact future legal access, but why? Is it because the folks sitting across the negotiating table are telling us this?

    If we play the nice guys, might we just finish last? What do we have in the way of leverage, anyway? Might Civil Disobedience in the form of open defiance be our most effective leverage, as well as a legitimate and possibly the most successful strategy? Wouldn’t Civil Disobedience and open defiance be more successful with more trail users, especially trail users who are responsible citizens, with families, careers and who own homes locally?

    Eventually, the LM wants to establish control of the area. Is the threat or use of Force the most effective and efficient strategy for the LM to gain control? Are threats and the use of Force just negotiating tactics? It seems that legalizing the status quo is the most beneficial outcome for trail users, and the most effective and efficient use of resources for the LM.

    So, shouldn’t all parties to the negotiation know the status quo?
    I see your point and that is certainly a well thought out arguement. However I don't think the two posters who were boasting about riding the tunnels fit the bill. If civil disobedience is the intended course of action then it must be publicized as such and done in some organized manner. If you want to know the consequences of bragging about riding illegally go to a PQ CAC meeting or talk to Ebasil. Aside from that I am in total agreement with you.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandmangts
    I see your point and that is certainly a well thought out argument. However I don't think the two posters who were boasting about riding the tunnels fit the bill. If civil disobedience is the intended course of action then it must be publicized as such and done in some organized manner. If you want to know the consequences of bragging about riding illegally go to a PQ CAC meeting or talk to Ebasil. Aside from that I am in total agreement with you.

    I think that's a good analysis.

    I think quietly going in some closed area and riding can be a form of civil disobedience, but probably not very effective. If lots of people are doing it and it is being documented, then perhaps it is effective. But the documentation has to be able to withstand criticism and show the activity in a favorable light at the same time. I think that's a high bar.

    In this case, if there was some documentation of the area in question before the clean up, and now that the areas was closed to legitimate us, you could show the problems had returned (trash, illegal camping as examples), that would be helpful. It wouldn't be civil disobedience. But it would be supportive of legitimate access.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandmangts
    I see your point and that is certainly a well thought out arguement. However I don't think the two posters who were boasting about riding illegal trails fit the bill. If civil disobedience is the intended course of action then it must be publicized as such and done in some organized manner. If you want to know the consequences of bragging about riding illegally go to a PQ CAC meeting or talk to Ebasil. Aside from that I am in total agreement with you.
    Yeah, you have a very good point about the two posters.

    So what exactly are the consequences of bragging about riding illegally, with regard to a PQ CAC meeting. Honestly, I have no idea, other than maybe some haters get all worked up, but what are the real consequences, and how do they differ from "business as usual"?

  25. #25
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    I only posted that I ride the tunnels to get the few people on this board worked up! Call it childish, but sometimes it is so amusing to watch people get so bent out of shape.

    I am actually a home owner in the area, and I have not riden the tunnels since they closed them down. It is a pity, because I really enjoyed them. The problem, is that I get off the 56 every night, and see numerous riders heading that way nightly that dis-regard the rules.

    So let's be honest, everyone still rides them and wants to turn a blind eye to this and just bend over and take it. I say screw it, it time to ride them again until they inforce it or open them up, which will not happen!

    I can count on one hand the number of trails that have been re-opened in so-cal once they are closed.

    It is time for the responsible mountain biker, and home owner in the area to stand up and just ride the tunnels. And do me a favor do not tell me to go to the meetings, because they are one sided, and will always be this way.

  26. #26
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    There was another thread about the Tunnels that was referenced in past meetings along with photos of stunt building and trail damage. Generally used to falsely promote the image of the rogue outlaw adrenaline freak mountain biker. It is total BS but unfortunately it works.
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  27. #27
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    Oliver,

    I think except for your first paragraph, that's a really great post. I think you could have posted the whole rest of the message and gotten some good feedback.

    I understand where you are coming from on the meetings. My suggestion would be to write your councilperson and essentially repeat what you wrote;
    -you live in the area;
    -enjoyed riding the trails;
    -see the community process as a waste of time.

    CC your letter to the mayor and the paper.

    That at least puts a little heat on the issue and a little scrutiny on the meetings.

    I live in another part of the state where we've been trying to get some trails legalized, and it's just a never ending process with little if nothing to show for it.

    HC

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver
    do me a favor do not tell me to go to the meetings, because they are one sided, and will always be this way.
    Au contraire Pierre. The sheer volume of outraged trail users that showed up for the 2008 DMM trails workshop/CAC meeting is indirectly responsible for why we are not saddled with a DMM trails plan that has no trails today.

    Of course, over a year later we still await the outcome and are yet to see which trails are and which trails are not in the plan.

    Until the trails plan is announced all So Cal mountain bike advocacy groups have urged compliance with the trails closures that went into effect this time last year. It is these groups that have worked hard to establish credibility with "the authorities". Blatant trail poaching and/or encouragement to poach known closed trails whose status remain in jeopardy is counter productive.

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodster
    Until the trails plan is announced all So Cal mountain bike advocacy groups have urged compliance with the trails closures that went into effect this time last year. It is these groups that have worked hard to establish credibility with "the authorities". Blatant trail poaching and/or encouragement to poach known closed trails whose status remain in jeopardy is counter productive.

    Thanks
    It seems clear that mountain bike advocacy groups need to urge compliance in order to maintain their credibility with Land Managers. It's not clear that mountain bikers need to respect closures in order for advocacy groups to maintain credibility or that poaching is counterproductive.

  30. #30
    Master of the Face Plant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver

    And do me a favor do not tell me to go to the meetings, because they are one sided, and will always be this way.
    Go to the meetings, then maybe they won't be one sided. Stop stiring the pot.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing in Action
    It's not clear that mountain bikers need to respect closures in order for advocacy groups to maintain credibility or that poaching is counterproductive.
    Oh dear; your last couple posts were ok but now you smell of troll poop again...

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver
    I only posted that I ride the tunnels to get the few people on this board worked up! Call it childish, but sometimes it is so amusing to watch people get so bent out of shape.

    I am actually a home owner in the area, and I have not riden the tunnels since they closed them down...
    Wow, someone said that I have issues! I'm a local homeowner too and the point is that the tunnels/DMM trails are way too good to lose. I'm as frustrated as anyone at how long it is taking to get the matter sorted out and I'm often sorely tempted to say "F*** it" and just go ride. Some of us get bent out of shape because we care. Despite what you and MIA say, comments posted on this board have been produced as "evidence" by our enemies on the various committees that will decide the fate of the area; please don't hand them any more ammo.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdcadbiker
    Oh dear; your last couple posts were ok but now you smell of troll poop again...
    Let me clarify:

    It’s not clear that in all cases, mountain bikers need to respect closures in order for advocacy groups to maintain credibility, or that in all cases, poaching is counterproductive.

    Would Civil Disobedience in the form of open defiance be considered poaching and a lack of respect for trail closures? Wouldn’t the point of such an exercise be to give more leverage to advocacy groups and force a more productive outcome?

    Is our current strategy for trail access working? Do we actually have trail access or hope of trail access? Do advocacy groups have credibility in this case? Is the usual trail access dogma relevant to this case, or even every case? Is it okay to think outside the box? Are there certain issues, such as poaching, which are beyond discussion, beyond probing? If so, is the current access doctrine more religious than business in nature?

    Should we worry about how our critics portray us? If we change our behavior, will our critics change the way they portray us? Are there any groups or individuals who are not negatively and in many cases unfairly portrayed by their critics?

    What I say on these boards is evidence of what? Evidence that I question the legality, effectiveness, motives, etc of the closures, and that I am willing to discuss alternative responses to the closure?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing in Action
    It’s not clear that in all cases, mountain bikers need to respect closures in order for advocacy groups to maintain credibility, or that in all cases, poaching is counterproductive.
    Poaching a trail in Nevada would have practically zero impact to a San Diego bicyclist lobbyist group's fight for access to Del Mar Mesa. Poaching the very trails the lobbyist group is fighting to open - especially when a prime argument we're using is that we're good land stewards is problematic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Missing in Action
    Is our current strategy for trail access working? Do we actually have trail access or hope of trail access? Do advocacy groups have credibility in this case? Is the usual trail access dogma relevant to this case, or even every case? Is it okay to think outside the box? Are there certain issues, such as poaching, which are beyond discussion, beyond probing? If so, is the current access doctrine more religious than business in nature?
    Until the trails plan is announced we will not know how effective our lobbying has been.Yes we have hope of access. We just don't know until the plan is announced whether it's misplaced hope. SDMBA, the multi-use trails commision and others have been engaged by the authorities - evidence that they have credibility (or in the least, they are groups that the authorities need to pay lip-service to). I think outside the box everyday and encourage everyone to do the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Missing in Action
    Would Civil Disobedience in the form of open defiance be considered poaching and a lack of respect for trail closures? Wouldn’t the point of such an exercise be to give more leverage to advocacy groups and force a more productive outcome?
    Poaching because an individual feels "entitled" to trespass and for no other reason cannot be defended as responsible behavior. Gandhi, Martin Luther King etc have shown that organized group civil disobedience CAN be effective. Wait until the trails plan is announced . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Missing in Action
    Should we worry about how our critics portray us? If we change our behavior, will our critics change the way they portray us? Are there any groups or individuals who are not negatively and in many cases unfairly portrayed by their critics?
    Republicans will be hyper critical of democrats and democrats hyper critical of republicans. At the end of the day it's the average Joe Blow in the street that gets to decide who is less full of crap. Mountain bikers will always have critics. If those critics influence the general public perception then we lose. Each and every member of the public you encounter on a ride develops a perception about mountain bikers based upon the way you interact with them. I go out of my way to be sickly sweet with non-biking trail users even when they are totally hostile towards me. Their rudeness only reinforces my opinion of their demographic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Missing in Action
    What I say on these boards is evidence of what? Evidence that I question the legality, effectiveness, motives, etc of the closures, and that I am willing to discuss alternative responses to the closure?
    I don't think there's any question of the legality of closing trails on DMM. The authorities with jurisdiction are well documented. Worrying about the motives is a waste of time and energy. Arguing that the closure is ineffective is where I invest time and energy.

  35. #35
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    Let me present a question or five

    What is the long term plan?

    Is there a long term plan?

    If tunnels access is re-opened, what is next?

    What if access doesn't happen?

    What happens if it is less than adequate access?

    If all goes well with the tunnels, what next?

    These are things that people seemingly haven't wanted to answer to me one on one so I present them here.

    I am just curious, since credibility seems to be sought after.

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    I can see both sides of the argument here but its clear the HUGE turnout last sept did very little positive for access to this trail.

    1. The trail is still closed
    2. There is a pot farm growing there
    3. the trail is getting ripped up again from trash and illegal off road activity
    4. We've yet to see a trail plan of any kind

    I'm with Oliver on this. . .the community process is falling on deaf ears, if this went to public vote it would be a landslide. Instead we have a small group who are cowardly hiding behind "environmentalism" to keep access to the trails closed

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmaximus
    I can see both sides of the argument here but its clear the HUGE turnout last sept did very little positive for access to this trail.

    1. The trail is still closed
    2. There is a pot farm growing there
    3. the trail is getting ripped up again from trash and illegal off road activity
    4. We've yet to see a trail plan of any kind

    I'm with Oliver on this. . .the community process is falling on deaf ears, if this went to public vote it would be a landslide. Instead we have a small group who are cowardly hiding behind "environmentalism" to keep access to the trails closed
    Same here, I too was just kidding around. I am just feed up with the process, and would like to see some results one way or the other.

  38. #38
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    To MIA, S:Drive & Oliver

    MIA: I'm not going to insult you or call you names; from your previous posts on other threads I know that you dislike the BS surrounding tunnels as much as anyone; however, remember you said: It's not clear that mountain bikers need to respect closures in order for advocacy groups to maintain credibility or that poaching is counterproductive? you may also remeber back in January you posted some pix of trail damage caused by 4x4's?

    The illustrious Marvin Gerst said the following shortly afterwards:

    Thus we have been treated to a variety of reports that other "user groups" have been invading the deer Canyon and Delmar Mesa open space areas. Four wheel drive vehicles, Quad trackers, and people dumping debris have been reported. The persons reporting these new activities have largely been mountain bikers and they usually couple their reports with some statements such as mountain bikers should be allowed to continue "protecting" the area.(see posting 3.09.09 on website by Erik Basil
    "On Saturday at around 5:00 pm I witnessed three things that show how impossible it is for the city to patrol the slated preserve, and that a couple of signs, and even fences, will not stop people. First, there was a truck off-roading on the Eastern part of the Mesa.
    Second, not far from the new fence posts erected at the CA Fish and Game property line
    there was a fresh dump of plastic, including a vacuum cleaner, a kids'pool, and 2 cubic yards of other trash.
    Third, there were three guys on pocket-bikes (motorized min-dirt bikes) on the Eastern-most tunnel trail.

    Once again, this brought to you by a mountain biker doing his duty of voluntarily patrolling the area.")

    They fail to make the obvious connection that the new Vandals are simply observing the behaviors of the old Vandals and are imitating and extending these behaviors because the observers conclude that any vandalism will now be tolerated and go unpunished.
    In this way the destruction is magnified and extended in time far beyond that which was perpetrated by the original actors. Whether the original vandals describe themselves as "trail builders", "trail adopters",or "trail protectors", the destruction is the
    same
    .


    SDrive & Oliver: Can you now see that even talking in jest about riding tunnels gives ammunition to those who would deny us access to those trails? We are up against some very sophisticated people who know how to manipulate information to their own ends and who also know that a lie told often enough becomes truth.

    I'll go away now, gonna go make some ruts in the mud

  39. #39
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    Personally, I wish you could have made your point without reposting Gerst's slanderous crap, whereby he intentionally attributes another's posting to me in order to support his sleazing of the issues. Several bubbleheads at the City and on the CAC simply accept whatever this douchebags posts as fact, so he's learned to post slander because they'll repeat it as fact.

    There's a greater irony, that may bolster some of MIA's perceptions, though: in addition to Gerst, Swanson, Harvey, Clews and Remnant's SUPPORT of the Del Mar Mesa equestrians who were caught in Deer Canyon cutting brush and then photographed the next day riding horses on the freshly-vandalized trail, this same crew sat silently in November 2009, when Bunny Clews reported to the CAC that she has personally been cutting illegal trails in LPCP, because she feels like it.

    We're not talking about riding a horse or bike down preexisting migrant trails, but slashing and stomping trails across habitat within the preserve that has never had a trail across it before. The Ranger was silent. When three of the trails were blocked off by the MTC trail crew (with auth by Rangers) on December 7th, guess what happened? A brand new one was chopped in over the weekend. Click my sig to see a map.

    It's enough to make one wonder if it's so obvious the vandals will go unpunished that they'll just do whatever they like. Do they follow rules? Does the Ranger have "legitimate authority" if the rules that apply to you don't apply to the wealthy patrons of Sherrie Lightner and Pam Slater-Price?

    As to TRAIL CONDITIONS: they're pretty nice! Some of the stream crossings are closed and there are mudholes you should ride through rather than widening the trail to evade them, but the trails are mostly open, tacky and great. Before it rains, get out there and enjoy them.

  40. #40
    ocd
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    Quote Originally Posted by EBasil
    Personally, I wish you could have made your point without reposting Gerst's slanderous crap, whereby he intentionally attributes another's posting to me in order to support his sleazing of the issues. Several bubbleheads at the City and on the CAC simply accept whatever this douchebags posts as fact, so he's learned to post slander because they'll repeat it as fact.

    There's a greater irony, that may bolster some of MIA's perceptions, though: in addition to Gerst, Swanson, Harvey, Clews and Remnant's SUPPORT of the Del Mar Mesa equestrians who were caught in Deer Canyon cutting brush and then photographed the next day riding horses on the freshly-vandalized trail, this same crew sat silently in November 2009, when Bunny Clews reported to the CAC that she has personally been cutting illegal trails in LPCP, because she feels like it.

    We're not talking about riding a horse or bike down preexisting migrant trails, but slashing and stomping trails across habitat within the preserve that has never had a trail across it before. The Ranger was silent. When three of the trails were blocked off by the MTC trail crew (with auth by Rangers) on December 7th, guess what happened? A brand new one was chopped in over the weekend. Click my sig to see a map.

    It's enough to make one wonder if it's so obvious the vandals will go unpunished that they'll just do whatever they like. Do they follow rules? Does the Ranger have "legitimate authority" if the rules that apply to you don't apply to the wealthy patrons of Sherrie Lightner and Pam Slater-Price?

    As to TRAIL CONDITIONS: they're pretty nice! Some of the stream crossings are closed and there are mudholes you should ride through rather than widening the trail to evade them, but the trails are mostly open, tacky and great. Before it rains, get out there and enjoy them.
    I give you credit man, you hang in there and take punches (from what I've seen) from all sides and keep coming back for more.

    I say thanks for your efforts.

    I hate to be a pessimist but when Mr and Mrs ranger want to stand around and look for me at a stop sign on the trails (that at one point was attached to a "property of the YMCA" sawhorse) to write tickets while Yosemite Sam and crew blaze through cutting trails in front of their faces without more than a bat of the eyes, well, this is defeat.

    For you and all of the punches you've taken this year, sit down, enjoy the holidays have a few beers (or root beers) and relax. You've done what you can dude, on behalf of all the mountain bikers, thanks.

  41. #41
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    Spare Me the Self-Righteous Pap

    Those of you who don the mantle of "civil disobedience" in riding closed trails are nothing more than poseurs and scofflaws. If you want to ride a fun trail, just say so -- don't pretend you're doing it for the greater good of mountain biking. If you really want to engage in an act of civil disobedience, then tell the rangers when you're going to do your illegal ride and get yourself arrested -- then you'll call the public's attention to the grave injustice that you're so selflessly trying to abolish.

  42. #42
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    Gerst and his ilk have their own personal agenda. . .by wrapping anyone who rides a mtb as vandals while ignoring admitted destruction of by some equestrian is laughable.
    Last edited by vmaximus; 12-29-2009 at 11:42 PM.

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