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  1. #1
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    PV trails need help

    PV multiuse trails are under threat with a surprise possibly (probably?) anti-biking usage meeting:

    Here's what I heard:

    This meeting is scheduled to be held on Saturday November 10th at 9:30am at the Pointe Vicente Interpretive Center (31501 Palos Verdes Drive West, Rancho Palos Verdes, CA 90275-5369 310-377-5370) and could be a few hours long . . . This meeting was announced last night, but there is no announcement on their website yet.

    For information on the PUMP Committee and this situation, please go to the City of Rancho Palos Verdes website
    http://palosverdes.com/rpv/planning/...mmary-2007.cfm

    For a Map of what trails uses are being proposed by the PUMP Committee, please look at this attachment:
    http://palosverdes.com/rpv/planning/...ANYONS-ER2.pdf

    For CORBA's suggestion on a trail plan, please look at this attachment:
    http://palosverdes.com/rpv/planning/...CORBA%20PV.pdf
    Last edited by dusthuffer; 10-31-2007 at 06:47 PM.

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  2. #2
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    That pump map makes sense if you want to run bikers off, one thing you can't tell by looking at the map is there is no parking allowed at the bottom. So what a bicyclelist needs to do is get dropped off, then the best they could do is ride up a few fire roads halfway up the hill. Maybe they would throw in the Upper/ Lower Slalom, Grand Canyon and Bad Lands being they don't have a use for them.

  3. #3
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    Several of us attended last Tuesday's PUMP meeting and was successful in that the plan they had passed previousy wanting to shut us out from the entrance at the end of Crenshaw (Burma Road Trail) including several trails was put to a new vote and shot down. . But now they need to come up with a new plan. There are a few committee members that just have it in for bikers and come up with total BS in their argument it was just unreal. Next meeting is next Wednesday at 7pm:
    PUMP Committee Meeting
    City of Rancho Palos Verdes - (310) 544-5227
    November 7, 2007 at 7:00 PM
    City Hall Community Room - 30940 Hawthorne Blvd., Rancho Palos Verdes

    * Wednesday November 7 will likely decide our fate at Portuguese Bend. (PV,Del Cerro,the"Cizzle")
    * Saturday November 17 will be a public review of the plan.
    * January (date to be announced) city council will take public comments and make a final decision.

    Your presence and voice there are very important since the bike haters are also going to be having people there in force. They will be going through each trail deciding it's proposed use. You can read about this in full on our thread on STR. If you can attend please come. Troy from CORBA is on the PUMP committee and has represented the mountain bike community well and strong.

    Please read this link:
    http://www.socaltrailriders.org/foru...e-falling.html

    Thanks,
    -Chris "Sharky"
    Last edited by *Sharky*; 11-02-2007 at 08:46 PM.
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  4. #4
    PVt
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    November 10th meeting

    The November 10th meeting is for the Visioning Plan. This is the third in a series. It will not be about trail uses but more about a general plan for trail heads, facilities, and projects by the Annenberg Foundation sponsor.

    Some may want to attend to learn more about the overall plan in Rancho Palos Verdes but there will no discussion about trail uses.
    Troy
    Last edited by PVt; 11-02-2007 at 11:57 AM.

  5. #5
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    Oh my!! This is so sad to read. I used to ride there for many years when I lived in Redondo Beach. I cut my teeth learning to mountain bike there in the late 80's and early 90s. I've been living back here in Hawaii and regularly return to SC to ride with friends. It saddens me to think that such a great place will not be accessible by mountain bikers. I applaud all the hard work a few people are doing to keep the trails open for all to enjoy. I wish I could be there to support you. If there is some way I can help from way out here, let me know.

    Living out here Hawaii, I realize how hard it is to find useful trails. Most of the Big Island is private property and therefore, hard to gain trail access. In fact, a developer just started bulldozing one of the few trails we had here in the Kamuela (Parker Ranch) area.

    Good luck, I'm crossing my fingers.

    Aloha,
    g

  6. #6
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    bump
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  7. #7
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    Del Cerro-PV-the "Cizzle"

    For those who ride, have ridden or plan on enjoying the trails at Del Cerro this Wednesday's PUMP (Public Use Master Plan) committee meeting is vital to attend to support and lend your voice if needed. The proposed trail usage is the main issue on the table and the other "users" will be there in force. We're also hoping to have a section set aside for "technical" riders since the ladders/jumps/trails etc. popping up have been an issue of complaint. Most complaints from certain committee members about bikers have been completely unfounded but no doubt a push will be made at this meeting to shut us out.

    PUMP Committee Meeting
    City of Rancho Palos Verdes - (310) 544-5227
    This Wednesday, November 7 at 7:00PM
    City Hall Community Room - 30940 Hawthorne Blvd., Rancho Palos Verdes

    For more info on this meeting please read our thread on STR:
    http://www.socaltrailriders.org/foru...tml#post131452

    As well as:
    http://www.socaltrailriders.org/foru...e-falling.html

    Plan to arrive early to get a seat (stood through last meeting) and would give you a chance to meet with fellow bikers prior to the start. Thanks for any help!!
    See you there,
    Chris "Sharky"
    Last edited by *Sharky*; 11-06-2007 at 07:27 PM.
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  8. #8
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    Del Cerro

    Just one last reminder about tomorrow (Wednesday) night's meeting. This one could help decide our possible use or non-use in the future so we need a solid representation from the bikers there. We know there will be a good showing from those not wanting us sharing certain trails.
    Let's hope for a fair and positive outcome!
    Thanks again.

    Info:
    http://www.socaltrailriders.org/foru...formation.html
    Last edited by *Sharky*; 11-06-2007 at 11:12 PM.
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  9. #9
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    News?

    So...what happened at the last (November 7th) meeting? I was there from about 7pm to 8:30pm and had to bail. I wish I could have given more support. It seemed like there were a lot of Mtb-ers there though.

    Special thanks to the the guy/mechanic at Smith's Cycle (Lomita) for filling me in on the meeting.

  10. #10
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    One word...FRUSTRATION !! Basically nothing was achieved last night. They took the Oct. 17th map http://palosverdes.com/rpv/planning/...ANYONS-ER2.pdf and proposed a change to open up the Burma Road Trail to Multipurpose (great for us) and also the intersection of Ishibashi/Grapevine to Burma as a pedestrian/equestrian trail but put to a vote did not pass. Mostly because the map as a whole would not be what they would want to present to the city council. So it was decided that at the next meeting which will be next Wednesday Nov. 14th at 7pm they would go trail by trail in the upper section of the Canyons map and decide their each proposed use. Our favorite bike hater on the committee decided last night to add bunny killers to her list of biased and unfounded complaints against mountain bikers. Finding a dead bunny on the side of a trail accused us of it's demise and a threat to ALL bunnys. OMG next we'll be accused of causing global warming!! Most likely was the victim of drought and lack of food or death by coyote etc? I mean really maybe a fluke hit but wildlife death by mountainbike pretty rare.
    Troy Braswell on this PUMP committee has been dealing with this type of mentality from her and a few others for 4 years now on our behalf my hat is off to him. He really needs our help and support. It's vital that when the City Council receives PUMP's plan and holds their meeting to hear public comments on what is proposed we need to be there in force to voice our views before they make their final decision if we want to keep these trails we enjoy open to us.
    To read more on our views of last night's meeting please read:
    http://www.socaltrailriders.org/foru...tml#post133590

    Thanks for coming out we need to stick with this to assure a fair outcome.
    See ya on the trails,
    Chris "Sharky"
    Last edited by *Sharky*; 11-08-2007 at 08:27 PM.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkrshark
    One word...FRUSTRATION Our favorite bike hater on the committee decided last night to add bunny killers to her list of biased and unfounded complaints against mountain bikers. Finding a dead bunny on the side of a trail accused us of it's demise and a threat to ALL bunnys. OMG
    Wow !!! Did she get a picture of Elmer Fudd on a mountain bike? He's the only professed bunny killer I know of.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by trail bait
    Wow !!! Did she get a picture of Elmer Fudd on a mountain bike? He's the only professed bunny killer I know of.

    SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

    Be very, very quiet! I'm hunting WABBITS!

    Last edited by Bobby Peru; 11-08-2007 at 10:28 PM.

  13. #13
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    Thanks...

    Thanks for keeping us informed. This trail is vital to us in SoCal. Close Del Cerro and the "nearest" trail we'll have is in the Santa Monica Mountains. With today's gas prices and traffic...ugh....that's just really impractical.

    Also thanks to those who stayed for the long haul and endured through the whole agonizing
    meeting.

    Excuse my ignorance on the matter, but how did this proposal to prohibit biking at Del Cerro even come up to begin with? Were there numerous complaints? Was it instigated by one particular council member (and I can guess who that person may be even from my short stay at the meeting)? Are there elections coming up so we can kick her out any time soon? Had there ever been a threat to close Del Cerro to bikers in the past and how was it thwarted then?

    Sorry for all the questions. I'm sure I can find the answers myself with a thorough search. I just have a bad feeling about the outcome. Nonetheless, I'll be there again next Wednesday wearing something mtber related to show my allegiance.
    Thanks again for keeping us informed!!

  14. #14
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    I'll let Troy give you a more detailed response but degradation and visible damage of a few trails have been the basis of some discussion on closure to regenerate. The Slalom area for example. Since studies have not shown that mountainbiking does any more damage than hikers or horses in my opinion if they close a particular trail for this specific reason it should be to ALL users and not single out the bikers.
    Some of the degradation is being done to NON-native plants which should be pulled anyways so there are so many points of discussion to each argument.
    Last edited by *Sharky*; 11-09-2007 at 12:14 PM.
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  15. #15
    PVt
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    Answers

    The proposal to close most trails to bikes came from a newly formed coalition called SUNíP. Most of these people have been working to restrict bikes for years. There are no council members in SUNíP.

    The Del Cerro area was private property until last year so the city had no authority to regulate uses. Essentially, everyone was poaching private land.

    However, there is a history of attempts to restrict cycling in RPV. The Forrestal Preserve was the first major open space purchase by the city. Here is an excerpt from a letter I wrote to the local news paper that summarizes the issues and how they relate to Del Cerro, now called Canyons Reserve.

    "Bike opponents at the Forrestal Preserve frantically claimed that cyclists were destroying sensitive habitat, terrorizing other users, and building unauthorized trails and jumps. Allowing bikes on trails would mean certain ecological disaster. The Forrestal Steering Committee, recognizing that most of these inflated issues could be mitigated, voted to allow bikes on all but a couple of trails.

    In 2004 the city council temporarily closed upper trails to bikes because of trail deficiencies, but stipulated that when repairs were completed they would reconsider. Cyclists volunteered in large numbers to help complete repairs in 2006.

    Subsequently, the Forrestal Advisory Board recommended that bikes be allowed back. The city council kept its promise and allowed bikes access on a trial basis, to be monitored by the conservancy. The monitoring report conclusion was that bikes had no more impact than other users and there was not a single user complaint. The PUMP committee then voted to leave the Forrestal plan intact, bikes and all.

    So what happened to the doomsday claims? The answer is simple; a good management plan was implemented and bike related problems were reduced to the level of other trail users. Isnít it amazing what some signs, user education, and overwhelming cooperation of responsible cyclists will do?

    Now we hear the same claims from the same people, only with extreme urgency this time. Instead of allowing the conservancy to do its job of managing the reserve, they want to undermine the good efforts of cyclists who have promised to help close inappropriate trails, repair the damage, and aggressively insist on good behavior through education and peer pressure. Cyclists have already helped remove all wooden structures. That took about three hours.

    Everyone agrees that unmanaged use has allowed the unsightly proliferation of trails. However, you must remember several things. It took years without management, and a drought to reach its current status, not weeks or months. A ban would take the same amount of time to implement as a fair management plan, so the urgency factor is overstated. Weíre talking about roughly 1% of the reserve area, not total destruction. When the management plan is implemented this activity, like at Forrestal, will quickly be reduced to the level of other user groups.

    The cycling community knows what is at stake and is poised to show that detractors are wrong again. All we are saying is give us a chance again."


    Please help! Let me know if you have question.
    Troy

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    Thank you...

    Thank you so much for the insight! It's great to know we have such informed people on our side. If we can get these facts across and a bit of self-policing (to prevent new wooden structures, people straying from the trails, continued trail maintenance, etc.) we should be ok.

    I think it's beneficial to focus on the benefits of having mountain bikers. I run into many hikers at night who lose their dogs (or are even lost themselves) and I always see many mountain bikers using their high powered lights and better/quicker maneuverability to help find the dogs or give others aid.
    I'm sure this has been focused on before by other insightful riders at the meeting and it should be hammered into the committee that we're not just "using" the trail, but also doing what we can to preserve it and helping others enjoy it as well.

    Like many others, you have my support and I'll be sure to show up at those critical meetings. Please keep us posted as to those crucial meetings and we'll be there! Thanks again and keep up the fight!! Your effort and work is sincerely appreciated!

  17. #17
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    Good job!

    Just a reminder about the meeting tomorrow (Wed.) night if anyone can make it. They're supposed to go through the upper trails of Del Cerro (Canyons Reserve) to decide the proposed use of each so your support and voice is needed at this one. Can't wait to see what our favorite "all bikers are evil" member comes up with this week. Rode there yesterday was hoping to run into her !!

    PUMP Committee Meeting (Public Use Master Plan)
    City of Rancho Palos Verdes
    Wednesday, Nov. 14th at 7:00 pm
    City Hall Community Room
    30940 Hawthorne Blvd., Rancho Palos Verdes

    See ya there...
    Last edited by *Sharky*; 11-13-2007 at 09:49 PM.
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  18. #18
    PVt
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    Bikes banned

    The ax has fallen......
    The Palos Verdes Peninsula Land Conservancy board voted unanimously last night to request that the City ban bicycles from all trails in the Canyons area except Burma Road until the PUMP is completed.


    It's more important than ever to be at the meeting tomorrow night!

  19. #19
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    Ain't that a kick in the marbles.

  20. #20
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    The ax has been swung.

  21. #21
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    As I understand this situation the PVPLC is a public group requesting the city to ban the activities of another public group (us) on city property.

    What advantage do they hold with the city as compared to CORBA?



    What perceived purpose will this "temporary" ban achieve other than motivating us to oppose the bike haters and educate trail wreckers with a new resolve?

    I'll be e-mailing and calling a few people regarding this recent issue and try to make the meeting.


    Thanks for your work Troy!
    Last edited by ssisyphus; 11-14-2007 at 12:08 AM.

  22. #22
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    Troy is the man!! This is only my 3rd straight meeting he's been battling this for us for 4 years. Tonight is going to be an important meeting if anyone can attend. Better late than never. Hoping we can get a clear vision across to them as to what would be a FAIR outcome. Thanks for everything Troy it's much apreciated.

    PUMP Committee Meeting:
    TONIGHT at 7:00 pm
    City Hall Community Room
    30940 Hawthorne Blvd., Rancho Palos Verdes

    http://www.socaltrailriders.org/foru...tml#post137269
    Last edited by *Sharky*; 11-14-2007 at 10:59 AM.
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  23. #23
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    UPDATE-next PUMP meeting this Wednesday

    Just an update for anyone following/supporting our battle to keep Del Cerro open to us. The city council did actually vote last Tuesday to allow the Land Conservancy Board to close certain trails to ALL users keep in mind it is that Board's primary job to preserve the habitat. Uncertain which trails they will be and should hopefully be temporary till the final approval of the long term PUMP plan which is what these meetings are accomplishing to submit to the city. Please respect the closures since we'll be closely judged by our behavior on these possibly affecting the final PUMP aproval. At the last PUMP meeting 2 weeks back they got through about half the trails deciding their proposed use biker input was vital to some of these decisions so thanks to those that spoke. AND of course what's a meeting without "bikers are bunny killers" member trying to outlaw us she decided using original deeds for the land purchase that bikers should be included as "off road vehicles" since they were forbidden.Uh huh, right!! Moving on. On a positive note a few seemed open to the idea of a seperate "freeride" area for us.
    This Wednesdays meeting we will be fighting hard to keep Grand Canyon/Slow or Die but concider Badlands off the map to any users because of it's unique features lost issue. Upper Slalom (aka Upper Grapevine) was given to us but no access from above so would be an out and back from below?? So if I walk my bike on a ped/equestrian trail that would make me a hiker, right? Here's a map showing what's been decided so far as of the last meeting GREEN=we can use (bikers), ORANGE still to be decided, DOTTED ones are closed or not on the map.

    Last edited by *Sharky*; 11-27-2007 at 10:53 AM. Reason: Enlarged map
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  24. #24
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    http://www.socaltrailriders.org/foru...falling-9.html
    Here's a link to a thread that stays pretty current with info and accounts of the meetings.
    If you can make the next meeting will be this Wednesday the 28th.
    PUMP committee meeting:
    This Wednesday, November 28th at 7:00PM
    RPV City Hall Community Room
    30940 Hawthorne Blvd.
    Rancho Palos Verdes

    THANKS...
    Sharky
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  25. #25
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    Oops by request I enlarged the map above...now you can read the trails. Hope some of you can make it to the meeting. Hit me up for some beef jerkey if it goes long ....I come prepared.
    Riding Del Cerro this afternoon if you're out there say "HI" we'll both be on IronHorses.
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  26. #26
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    Many THANKS !!

    I took this from another site but it's important you respond, to those attending the PUMP meeting tonight will see you there at 7pm :

    URGENT
    Daily Breeze wants your opinion 12-12-07
    The South Bay Daily Breeze has posed a question to the public:
    "Hikers, bikers, and equestrians have been discussing how to share trails on the peninsula.
    Should mountain bikers be allowed on the trails, or do such bikes do too much harm to the environment?"


    Reply with your thoughts by calling 310-543-6691 or email tellus@dailybreeze.com

    They require your full name, home town, and phone number. Please respond quickly, the results will appear in the Friday paper.
    Last edited by *Sharky*; 12-13-2007 at 02:18 AM.
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  27. #27
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    I know there was an outpouring in responses but this is what the paper published today. Thanks to those that gave input and let me know if you'd llike this thread updated as we go along with these meetings??
    Good chance next week the Conservancy will shut down the trails to all users except Burma Road temporarily till the city decides what to designate after the PUMP map is submitted.


    Most readers favor shared use of nature trails
    Daily Breeze Question of the Week
    Article Launched: 12/13/2007 10:02:53 PM PST


    Although I am a biker (road type), I do not believe that hiking/horse trails should be shared with mountain bikers, and the environment is not the reason. Mountain bikers are all about speed on the downhill, and hikers and walkers are obviously on a different pace. Mixing them is a recipe for injuries.
    - BOB YOUNG
    Harbor City

    Obviously you've never been on a horse path before or never had a horse spooked by somebody jumping on a bicycle in front of you. It's crazy to mix bicycles and horse riding. Horses do spook. Good way to break your neck. No bikes.
    - RANDY SCHOONOVER
    Torrance

    I live in Upper Portuguese Bend and my wife and I have been biking, hiking and riding horses on the trails in that area for years. Compared to other places we have experience with, the folks we meet are very pleasant and generally demonstrate a real concern for the environment.
    This is evidenced by the lack of trash and litter on the trails.
    Because we use the trails for hiking, biking and riding, we are not biased toward any one group. It is our opinion that you can cause damage in any format. You cannot solve the problems with regulation. We need to communicate our concern, educate the users (all disciplines) and post rules of good conduct.
    - JIM LEGGE
    Rancho Palos Verdes

    A few hikers and a few mountain bikers are a problem. The many other hundreds of hikers and mountain bikers are happy to share the trails and don't forget the horse people also sharing. There seems to be an issue with a few power-hungry people (who believe) the trails are theirs. Remember, the land is for everybody, not just a few people. Does anybody realize that people need to get out and ride or walk every day for the health of themselves and society as a whole? Without naming certain names, a few have created a lot of stress to ban mountain biking. These few should go visit the rest of the planet and see how lucky they are to live where they have open land and to share it with (others) who know they are lucky to have the open land and enjoy it.
    - MITCH BERGER
    Torrance

    Yes, mountain bikes should be allowed on the trails. Mountain bikes do no more harm to trails than hiking, and less than horses. (There are many studies to support this.) Damage to trails, whether it be from mountain bikes, hiking boots or horse hooves, can be mitigated and repaired. Banning mountain biking from the trails is prejudicial and has shown to exacerbate conflict. And it wouldn't do much to mitigate damage to the environment.
    As a member of Conejo Open Space Trails Advisory Committee (in Thousand Oaks) I know that mountain biking can absolutely coexist with other trail users because there is open dialogue, inclusion and cooperation, not an atmosphere of exclusion, bans and conflict.
    - MARK LANGTON
    Newbury Park

    I think it should be strictly foot traffic. It's just too much otherwise, and the environment would be so much better.
    - CAROL BARKER
    Hawthorne

    Science and ecological studies have shown that, with very few exceptions, well-designed public trails support mountain biking without any abnormal or unusual wear.
    As a mountain biker for years, and an early member and longtime coordinator for the volunteer trail maintenance program of a nonprofit group, I believe those of us from all user groups who have at heart the love, respect and quest to go out and enjoy our natural surroundings should work together to keep the outdoors open to us. We might even be helping invite the next generation out to take part in what we've found.
    - RICH PINDER
    Van Nuys

    Mountain bikes do little harm to the trails, much less than a horse, and about as much as a hiker. The weight of the rider and bike is spread over two wheels with a wide contact area to the trail, which results in a low impact to it. Regular trail use by mountain bikers helps keep existing trails accessible to hikers.
    - GREGORIO DE HARO
    Torrance

    Not only I am a mountain biker, but (I am) also backpacker, hiker and Sierra Club member. I have been mountain biking in Palos Verdes for 15 years. During that time I have never had any conflict with hikers or equestrians and have found pleasant hellos to be the norm.
    The current concern in the area is a number of unofficial trails that have been made and the corresponding erosion caused by this. Unfortunately, as in any group, there is a small number of individuals who, usually through lack of knowledge or etiquette, give a group a bad name. A mountain bike, when ridden under control, causes no more damage than a footprint, and significantly less than a horse. The main cause of erosion in our trails is water runoff. The mountain bike community has already volunteered significant hours to assist with trail maintenance and has rerouted trails in the preserve to minimize erosion.
    Once the trails have been officially designated and posted, we can patrol the area and continue to educate users. Banning bicycles from this area would be akin to banning hikers on all trails because a small handful of them shortcut on switchbacks. By and large, all user groups have successfully shared this area for a long time and should be able to continue to do so.
    We need to all work together and not have access denied to anyone because of a small handful of kids on bikes (not mountain bikers) or a small group of angry hikers.
    - STEVE KERR
    San Pedro

    The National Park Service's own reporting shows that damage from mountain bikes is negligible (if riders stay on the prescribed trails) and that in some cases horses can be far more damaging.
    Any erosion caused in the Portuguese Bend area by mountain bikers is done by a small minority of bikers, and the mountain bike community has begun to actively "police" these riders from continuing the type of riding that would damage these trails.
    - ANDY TANKERSLEY
    San Pedro

    I firmly believe that mountain bikers should be allowed on the nature trails on the Peninsula, and in particular on the trails in the Portuguese Bend area below Del Cerro Park. These trails have been shared by hikers, equestrians and mountain bikers for more than 20 years now.
    Up until now, this land has been a big "vacant lot" with basically no rules. Once the Public Use Master Plan (PUMP) Committee (in Rancho Palos Verdes) decides which of the existing trails should remain open, I believe that it will be in the best interest of everybody that all of these trails be designated "multi-use."
    Just in the last year, this same process has been implemented in the Forestall Preserve with most of the trails being designated multi-use, and there has been no evident harm to the environment from mountain bikes.
    Mountain bikers will respect posted signs and will stay on designated trails if they are allowed on most of the trails, just like what has happened in the Forestall Preserve.
    - BOB ENDICOTT
    San Pedro

    Having a diverse trail user community is healthy and reflects the people and their recreational preferences in the surrounding neighborhoods. Bicycles have been using the trails on the Palos Verdes Peninsula for more than 20 years. Mountain bicyclists from the surrounding communities have provided many hours of volunteer trail maintenance and shown their value as caring and involved constituents.
    Excluding bicycles would only create a huge challenge for the agency that is tasked with managing the local trails and parklands, taking away from their ability to maintain trails and keep them safe and beautiful for all users, while alienating a longtime user group.
    - PETER HEUMANN
    Calabasas

    Mountain bikes should be allowed on all trails in Palos Verdes. They inflict less trail damage than equestrian trail users. Mountain bikers in the area ride respectfully. Please share the trails.
    - CHAD FLYNN
    Hermosa Beach

    I have been an avid hiker for years. I have never had a problem with mountain bikers at Del Cerro. The ones I have met have been very polite. I know that some can cause trouble but in that regard, I have scolded other hikers for intentionally littering and have seen hikers going off trail.
    It's like driving in L.A. - most people are good but sometimes someone is an idiot! I believe that multi-use trails can work. They should not be closed to anyone unless it rains. Then horses and bikers should stay off.
    - LIZ KURTZ
    Los Angeles

    Mountain bikers should be allowed to share the land with hikers and equestrians. And no, bikes do not do "too much harm to the environment." I have been a hiker and mountain biker in that area for more than 10 years, and the most damage I've seen was due to water and horses being ridden on trails right after rain.
    Downhill sections of trail would have deep imprints from the horses shoes, due to the softened dirt.
    - LARRY LINDSAY
    Torrance

    We are all stakeholders. This land now belongs to the community, so everyone should be allowed to share these trails. The bike community has been working to make sure everyone knows the rules. There is no evidence that bikes impact trails any differently than other users if they stay on designated trails.
    Cyclists have done more trail work than any other group. We deserve respect. I've volunteered to repair trails throughout the Southern California. We deserve to ride them. I've been riding these trails for more than five years now. Walking your bike in hazardous sections is a common practice we use. Cyclists can control their bikes even on the steepest trail. I've never had a bad encounter with hikers or horses.
    - VICTOR CASAS
    Glendora

    Using a dirt trail leaves marks no matter what the mode of transportation. If the trails are dry, neither bikes, pedestrians or horses cause any actual damage. But when it rains, we should all stay away for one or two days until the trails dry out.
    Regardless of who uses them, trails need periodic maintenance, and bicyclists are usually the group most willing to spend a Saturday morning working on the trails. When I volunteer at organized trail work days in PV, we bicyclists outnumber everyone else.
    - DAVID THOM
    Torrance

    The controversy implied by the question stems from activities while the land was private property and without any form of management. A city-ordered study of all uses in the Forrestal Nature Preserve strongly suggests that the implementation of management will provide the controls necessary to accommodate bike use.
    The Palos Verdes Peninsula Land Conservancy study concluded that bikes had no more impact on habitat than other users and added that no user complaints were reported. As a member of the Forrestal Nature Preserve Advisory Board, I concur with the conclusions.
    Focusing on unmanaged activity neglects all of the proven mitigation methods that are available. I am also a member of the Rancho Palos Verdes Public Use Master Plan Committee that is nearing completion of an updated management plan. I am hopeful that a year of good management will allay concerns about bikes and other uses.
    - TROY BRASWELL
    Rancho Palos Verdes

    By prohibiting bikes from using the Peninsula trails, the city will cause more damage to the environment than good. Mountain bikers will be forced to drive to other trails, leading to more local air pollution and traffic congestion. Many mountain bikers, who also ride road bikes, would be forced to ride on the streets more often, in turn slowing down traffic and potentially leading to increased traffic accidents.
    In this era of global warming, bicycling should be encouraged in our community, not discouraged by special-interest groups that have misperceptions, axes to grind and/or special agendas in regard to a great sport.
    - AL MARTINEZ
    Rancho Palos Verdes

    The trails should be shared by all parties. The hikers should have the right of way but not exclusive use. The equestrians have always been somewhat limited, and I agree that not all trails should be open to horses.
    As for the environmental impact, a horse in not indigenous to North America and has a much, much higher unit loading on its hooves than that of a mountain bike tire. The unavoidable manure from a horse spreads nonindigenous plants. These plants have a negative impact on the area by choking out the native plants.
    These are evident on trails not used by mountain bikers. Is this really an environmental issue, or is it an elitist, exclusive land grab?
    - JOHN HALL
    Rancho Palos Verdes




    I'd say it was a positive response in our favor that hopefully will open up their way of thinking.
    Thanks for your help!!
    -Sharky
    Last edited by *Sharky*; 12-14-2007 at 03:44 PM.
    INCYCLE

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    Sharky, Dusthuffer, Pvt, etc....
    THANK YOU so much for keeping us informed here and going above and beyond for us fellow riders. Please do keep it up! It is very much appreciated.

  29. #29
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    Any updates with PV?

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    At the Dec. 12th PUMP meeting we lost access to a few trails voted to the map and they have not decided yet if Grand Canyon/Slow or Die should even be a usable trail. The next meeting is January 16th hopefully they can finish voting on trails so they can move ahead with this. Once the City has a workshop/meeting date set to listen to the public's input on the map submitted to them by PUMP it is vital we have as many bikers show as possible. You submit a card to speak so could be important to just have your 3 minute allotted time given to another speaker to add on to theirs.
    We're still hoping for a freeride play area outside the preserve. To see an updated map voted on as of the last meeting plus a map/photos of the possible play area check out the link below. Around the 1st the Conservancy is supposed to close off all trails except for the fireroad "Burma Road" to all users so ride them while you can. This will hopefully be temporary. Thanks all for your help and support !

    http://www.socaltrailriders.org/foru...alling-13.html
    Last edited by *Sharky*; 12-29-2007 at 10:55 AM.
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  31. #31
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    Del Cerro

    By this coming Monday the Conservancy will be putting in temporary closures to all users of all trails except Burma Rd. which is the main fireroad so ride them while you can. Not good for the community below there since this cuts off their access. At the PUMP meeting (I couldn't make it) this last wednesday they eliminated the Pillow Lava Edge trail and made Grand Canyon/Slow or Die PEDESTRIAN ONLY. Big loss for us. The "three sisters" map was confirmed all multi-use. This completes the Del Cerro area so at the next meeting Jan. 30th we hope to address a "fun zone" for us just outside the reserve. Feb 23rd is the public workshop with the city council. This is where we have to have a very strong showing. That's when we can address the City Council and present our case for expanded bike access beyond what the PUMP committee is recommending.
    Again thanks all for your help and support.
    INCYCLE

  32. #32
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    Fwi

    http://mtbpv.org/

    As of now all the trails are closed except for the fireroad. Hope to see many bikers at the Feb. 23rd meeting it's our last chance to voice our thoughts on the trails we'd like to keep open to us. Thanks again all.
    INCYCLE

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by *Sharky*
    http://mtbpv.org/

    As of now all the trails are closed except for the fireroad. Hope to see many bikers at the Feb. 23rd meeting it's our last chance to voice our thoughts on the trails we'd like to keep open to us. Thanks again all.
    Thanks for the info. That really #!@$#. What about Forrestal? If it is open, I guess I can take the fireroad to Forrestal.

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    Yes, you can connect the fire road (aka Burma Road) via Panorama Trail to Forrestal without breaking the rules. See the CORBA PV web site for a detailed map of closed trails and also further details about what everyone can do to help.

    Thanks, Jim

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    the land is our land, not the forest service, or any other entity. vote for Ron
    Paul and reduce the gov't, they are a cancer growing out of control.
    Mitch

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    Go for info:
    http://www.socaltrailriders.org/foru...tml#post207698

    There's an important meeting coming up on the 23rd a week from this Saturday. This is our last chance and a time where we actually get to address the city council before they make their final decision on the PUMP plan submitted to them as to the proposed use of these trails. Please attend if you can and respect the closures currently in place.
    Thanks all for your help and support!!
    INCYCLE

  37. #37
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    http://www.socaltrailriders.org/foru...tml#post210966

    This Saturday is our last chance to speak up and support saving these trails for us. If unable to attend concider sending an email info in link above. After this meeting with the City Council they will be making their final decision based on our input and the PUMP map submitted as to the use of these trails. Thanks again for all your help.
    We have an ongoing thread on STR so just easiest for me to post these links.

    Additional info:
    http://www.socaltrailriders.org/foru...tml#post207698
    INCYCLE

  38. #38
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    So, what the heck happened at the "last" and final meeting?! :O
    Strength of a grizzly; Reflexes of a puma; And the wisdom of a man

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    http://www.socaltrailriders.org/foru...tml#post215605
    I was unfortunately unable to attend but the anti-biking group was there in force and the PUMP plan was adopted for now. The trails should re-open in about 30 days with the limits put in place. The link above should give you a full rundown. The idea of a seperate funzone is possibly still on the table so can only hope for ATLEAST that? Really disappointed in the outcome.
    INCYCLE

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    Good news from PV

    After the bitter disappointment of the Portuguese Bend massacre, bikers in PV really needed a victory. It came late last night at the RPV council meeting.

    The usual anti bike groups spoke, claiming bikes destroy habitat and endanger other users, and therefore should not be allowed on trails at the Forrestal Reserve.

    Fortunately, we had factual data in the city ordered Forrestal Monitoring Report to support our claims that bikes present no more problems than other users. In fact, the report stated that there has not been a single complaint against bikers.

    As a result, the trails plan at Forrestal remains intact with the exception of Cristo Que Viento, which was changed to pedestrian. This trail is expendable because it is incredibly steep and goes into Rolling Hills. I believe it gave the council something to sacrifice to the habitat folks. So be it.

    It seemed the anti bike element lost its intensity and the council is finally starting to get it. Surprisingly, some councilmen actually asked detailed questions from bike speakers. One questioned whether CORBA PV could fulfill its promise to help educate bikers. In essence, this is the doorway to get more trails opened to bikes. If we ride responsibly and volunteer for trail work, we have a chance at the next trail review in six months.

    After being disappointed (pissed off actually) at the results for Portuguese Bend, I feel rejuvenated. I canít possibly express enough thanks to the eight resolute bikers who came to the meeting.

    You rose from the ashes to fight again. You are the heroes here!

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    So does this mean that bikes are now allowed back on the singletrack? What's the deal? I went there about 2 weeks ago but didn't notice ANY signs posted, (as before) stating that bikes were prohibited on the trails.

    I *did* notice that almost ALL the trails were rapidly being overgrown with foliage nearing 7' tall! WTF! Was that stuff planted on purpose to choke off the trails?

  42. #42
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    Trails will reopen soon

    Rancho Palos Verdes has 10 reserves. The area below Del Cerro is the Portuguese Bend Reserve. Even though people have been trashing the signs, all single tracks are still closed to everyone, not just bikes.

    The Sheriffís department has been patrolling and can give tickets. The other thing is, people who want to get ride of bikes will be out there with cameras to document bad biker behavior. We know this sucks but try to hang in there for a little longer. The trails will be reopened when the city puts up the new trail use signs. That should be in a month or so.

    The brush usually grows over most trails every year. The past two years of drought have been the exception. Bikers have historically cleared brush several times a year. However, now all work in the reserve must be directed by the city. There will be a trail workday, sponsored by REI, on Saturday April 19th to clear brush. For information go to mtbpv.org and click ďVolunteerĒ or email CORBA PV info@mtbpv.org.
    Last edited by PVt; 03-28-2008 at 09:06 AM. Reason: typo

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by PVt
    all single tracks are still closed to everyone, not just bikes.

    The Sheriff’s department has been patrolling and can give tickets. The other thing is, people who want to get ride of bikes will be out there with cameras to document bad biker behavior.
    I was out there on the fire road earlier this week. I saw MANY violators of the laws. Maybe I should bring my camera and take pictures of -



    Doggie walkers with NO LEASH! Oh the horror!



    Horseyback riders on the single track!

    They almost ran over me climbing the fire road. Ok, I'm lying, I was pushing my bike up actually. I could fight fire with fire I guess but what's the point? I'm sure there are a few bunny killers out there that have not been caught....yet.



    Like the Sheriff Dept. is going to ticket a doggie walker or a horseyback rider. Yeah right. They are going right after those lawbreakin' bike riders!
    "Well I don't drink as much as I ought to."

    ~Jerry Jeff Walker~

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    this is very nice of you guys. I went on this trail once and it's awesome but im too far from it

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    any word?? can we ride our little bikes on the trails yet??? I wonder how much money the city has wasted on this little topic, just to make up there minds about bikes on a dirt trail.... wow what a waste of time and money.. Also cops who give tickets to people ridding bikes on a dirt trail on a empty hill....should find something more important to do
    woke up this morning....It was all down hill from there

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    I heard the temp. closure signs were left up but the trails meant to be open to us are open? I'm riding out there later this week and will try to find out. Atleast for sure the fireroad (boring) is.
    INCYCLE

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    Trails still closed

    Unfortunately, the trails won't reopen until the signs are up. A lot of them are almost unridable anyway because they're overgrown. There's a trail work day Saturday April 19th. Hopefull that will take care of the signs and clear the trail of brush.

    I've been riding other open areas on Sundays. These trails are little used and some are overgrown but, hey, it's single track. Sunday morning ~9:00 AM at Del Cerro parking lot.

    Don't forget the city council will review trails in Portuguese Bend in about 4-5 months. Hang in there, we're still working to get more trail opened to bikes.
    Last edited by PVt; 04-12-2008 at 09:24 PM.

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    so who is going to make it on april 19th???
    woke up this morning....It was all down hill from there

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    Can't find specific details as far as time, etc.? I'd like to try and make it even though I'd be late getting there. Please post any info when you have it. Thanks !

    Edit: I see the link is now updated with the info .
    Last edited by *Sharky*; 04-14-2008 at 08:16 AM.
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  50. #50
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    Earth Day Trail Maintenance

    This will be a full 6 hour work day. If you can't make it in the morning, come a little later. Someone will be at the gate to direct you to a work site. Sign in as CORBA or something that indicates you are a mountain biker.

    Sponsored by REI - Lunch and water will be provided for the first 100 people that sign-up. Some tools and gloves will be provided however it is recommended that you bring your own gloves, water, and sunscreen. Long pants and good shoes recommended.

    See ya there!

    What: Trail workday. Help with trail maintenance at the Portuguese Bend Reserve (Del Cerro).
    When: April 19th 9:00 AM to 3:00 PM

    Where: Del Cerro Park Map
    2 Park Place, Rancho Palos Verdes
    Last edited by PVt; 04-14-2008 at 08:51 AM.

  51. #51
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    Trail Maintenance this Saturday April 19th

    *BUMP*
    Planning on going should be a cool day out according to the weather forecast. Maybe get some riding in after? See ya there...
    INCYCLE

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    How did the build day go??? any word on the trails opening???
    woke up this morning....It was all down hill from there

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    Great turnout the trails worked on were Peacock Flat and Panorama. I believe the next work days scheduled are in May and June 7th?? They really do this up good with 6' long sandwiches, water etc. was well taken care of. There were several sign posts at trailheads up stating the trail uses but was told the Council needs to give final aproval of opening once they're all done and other paperwork submitted at their upcoming meeting? Maybe Troy can jump in with more info.
    Any word on the "play" area?
    INCYCLE

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    I saw signs up today. I tried Eagle's Nest, but it was very narrow. It's basically my second time mountain biking ever, so I wasn't sure I could handle it. It wasn't that it was steep or anything. I felt like I was going to lose my balance from the brush constantly hitting me.

    The good news is that this time I was able to bike all the way back up instead of walking.

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    So what is the word on Del cero Park??? is it open??? are we able to ride our little bikes up and down a little dirt hill??
    woke up this morning....It was all down hill from there

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    I was out yesterday and most all the single track is cloced to bikers. I did notice that alot of the trail markers have been cut down and hidden in the trees,so take care where you ride even if you did not see a sign it was most likley cut down and you could be fined. Yes it sucks,I am in Torrance and one of the reasons we bought a home here was to be close to some decent trails but no more.

  57. #57
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    Trails still closed

    Unfortunately, trails are still closed in Portuguese Bend (Del Cerro). You can only use the fire road and 4 trails (map). The signs that have been posted are in preparation for reopening but the city council has to approve it first. That could happen at the June 3rd council meeting but no onw knows for sure. In any event, it will be soon.

    In the mean time, hang in there and stay on legal trails. The sheriffs department is doing random patrols and anti-bike people are taking photos to persuade the city to kick bikes out altogether. Don't help them.

    If you see anyone destroying signs, please let them know itís a dumb thing to do. It will not change anything and it will absolutely hurt our effort to open more trails to bikes. My experience is that people who are mad enough to do this stuff never show up to do anything positive, like meetings with the city or trail work. Hostility is rewarded with hostility.

    If you want to vent your anger in a useful way, join us for trail work on June 7th at Del Cerro (info). We have a chance to get more trails for bikes when the city reveiws trail uses in about six months. Keep this goal in mind when you ride.

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    This Sucks, Horses can crap all over but a dumb little bike is the problem. Let us Ride---people are just mad they do not have something to do like we do and that we will all live longer b/c we ride bikes for fun. Just open the freaking trail so we can ride
    PVT---please let us know when we can ride there
    woke up this morning....It was all down hill from there

  59. #59
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    I'll keep you posted

    I feel your pain. It's all about politics, not fairness. I'm going to the city council meeting tonight and will post the results. My guess is tonight or in two weeks. Hang in there.

    There's also a meeting to consider a bike skills area. If anyone wants this, go to the meeting and voice you opinion (Details). If you have kids who enjoy riding this stuff, bring them.

    Last thing: CORBA is sponsoring a trail workday at Del Cerro Park next Saturday 9:00 AM - Noon (Details). This may be the only real tool we have to get trails back. Your help will be appreciated.

  60. #60
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    Trials will open next Friday

    The city council voted to reopen trails at Portuguese Bend next Friday June 6th.

    Please remember that we are working towards getting more trails open to bikes in six months. Don't give them an excuse to say no. Enjoy!

    Trail work next Saturday June 7th, 9:00 AM Del Cerro Park

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    so next week we can go work on Del Cerro park but we can not ride there??? open Portuguese bend?? dose that mean dell cerro is open also?
    woke up this morning....It was all down hill from there

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by PVt
    The city council voted to reopen trails at Portuguese Bend next Friday June 6th.

    Please remember that we are working towards getting more trails open to bikes in six months. Don't give them an excuse to say no. Enjoy!

    Trail work next Saturday June 7th, 9:00 AM Del Cerro Park
    What do you mean "reopen"? They've BEEN open for a while now, but with limited bike access. Do you mean that ALL trails that were previously open to bikes are now open again as well?

  63. #63
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    Trail status

    Quote Originally Posted by snowmaniac153
    What do you mean "reopen"? They've BEEN open for a while now, but with limited bike access. Do you mean that ALL trails that were previously open to bikes are now open again as well?
    Quote Originally Posted by snowmaniac153
    so next week we can go work on Del Cerro park but we can not ride there??? open Portuguese bend?? dose that mean dell cerro is open also?
    Snowmaniac - Single track trails have not been officially open while the signs were being erected. The confusion is understandable, especially when you see hikers and equestrians on single track trails. The whole trail closure thing was poorly done.

    Trails Status
    God, you don't know how much I wish I could say all the old trails are open. What we have in the Portuguese Bend Reserve (Del Cerro) is eight trails and the fire road (map). I know that sucks but those are the cards we've been dealt. Just remember that when we started four years ago, bikes were out, that’s zero trails. Today we have 36 trails throughout the ten reserves. Is that enough? Absolutely not!

    So what can we do to change it?
    The bottom line is, the city council holds the power. They have to sit there and listen to everyone who is willing to speak. That includes facts, non-facts, distortions, exaggerations, and dramatic displays. The result is, they compromise. We don't like the results but we've been assured that they can make changes in six months, and then every year thereafter. The door is not shut; it’s open if we can work to influence them.

    They want bikers to prove they can obey the rules, stay on designated trails, and not trash habitat. All those fun new technical trails, jumps, and drops we made in the past allowed the opposition to put us on the defensive from day one. They've declared that this is not a bike park; it’s a nature preserve where bikes are allowed if they don't create problems.

    The council had repeatedly expressed appreciation for our trail work. They need and depend on volunteers. We know this can work because we got trails back at the Forrestal reserve a couple of years ago by working on them. We need to keep it up until the next trail review in February. There are no guarantees we will get anything but what’s the alternative?

    You also have a lot of people working their butts off to get more access. That means going to endless really really sucky meetings, and facing up to people who treat you like you have the plague. It’s only natural to be pissed off and complain about what’s happened but that doesn’t help get trails back. I hate politics and I hate meetings and I hate public speaking, but I go because I love these trails and I love mountain biking. Working on trails for three hours a couple of times a year is the easy part. Will you help?
    Last edited by PVt; 06-05-2008 at 11:53 AM.

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    Greetings guys,

    I haven't posted up here, but came to the Socal forum section to see if anyone meets up to ride at Del Cerro. I am always friendly and courteous when riding at Del Cerro because of the mounting tensions between different demography. I intentionally avoid riding Monday and Thursday to give space to the hiking group.

    Its a real shame that its gotten to this point. PVt, if there are any literature layout (not writing, but designing) that we can use, please contact me and I can whip up some PDF's provided that the text is there.

    Hope to see all of you out on the trail!

  65. #65
    PVt
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    We ride at Del Cerro every Sunday at 9:00 AM in the parking lot (start ~9:30). CORBA PV is redesigning a brochure for mountain bikers. Join us and we'll talk about it or contact info@mtbpv.org

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    < trail > signs?

    went for a ride in P.V. yesterday and came across many of these signs right in the middle of the trail <trail>,also looks like they are creating a new trail close to waterfall.I almost ate the mound of brush left in the middle of the trail! So is this trail closing part of the plan and if so would like to know which trails are open/closed.thanks for any info.

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    I'm not sure where Waterfall is?? But it sounds as if they've combined Ishibashi and lower Slalom into one route going down now. One BORING route down no more fun turns!! They talked about doing this move at the meetings seeing no need for two trails that so closely parallel each other . More a move to keep the natural aspect in place and cut down on erosion? Hopefully Troy "PVt " will chime in it's been a while since I've been there.
    INCYCLE

  68. #68
    PVt
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    Waterfall

    Quote Originally Posted by *Sharky*
    I'm not sure where Waterfall is?? But it sounds as if they've combined Ishibashi and lower Slalom into one route going down now. One BORING route down no more fun turns!! They talked about doing this move at the meetings seeing no need for two trails that so closely parallel each other . More a move to keep the natural aspect in place and cut down on erosion? Hopefully Troy "PVt " will chime in it's been a while since I've been there.
    You're right, they combined both trails into "Ishibashi" which goes straight down the ridge line. Twenty-five years ago I called it Waterfall because of the drops at the end. I guess the name stuck.

    Lower Slalom is dead but we have hope. The current ridge trail is not considered sustainable, so it will have to be realigned to incorporate turns. It may not be exactly like lower slalom but it should be a lot more "interesting" after the project is done. I can't say for sure when this will happen but if we offer to do most of the work it may be sooner. Keep up the good fight....

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    So how long is the trail that we can ride? Never been here before, I just found out about this trail a couple weeks ago, and was planing to ride it, until I found this thread. Is it worth going to at this point??? It's probably the closest trail to my house.

  70. #70
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    This is the current map as to what's open to us (green). Burma Road is the main fireroad you start out on at the end of Crenshaw. The individual trails are relatively short but all depends what route you put together as far as mileage. Most of the fun technical stuff no longer legally exists to us so it all depends what you're looking for if it's worth it. Other than Burma it's mostly singletrack. Watch for hikers alot of blind turns. I'll be out there with a few late Sunday.
    INCYCLE

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