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  1. #1
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    PQ Tunnels: Tree removal by equestrians

    At least 3 large, old growth trees were removed in the canyon bottom on the section of trail connecting the western tunnel to the eastern tunnels in Deer Canyon. Fresh horse crap and lots of horse hoof tracks around the area. It looks like it was done today. I only passed through a short section of canyon bottom, so I don't know if other trees may have been removed.

    My guess is that a group of equestrians intends to remove more trees in order to gain access to the trails. This will of course drastically change the character of the trail and reduce it's appeal and novelty.

    Is there anything we can do about it? Is it possible they have permission? Maybe this is destined to become a horse trail? What is the current status of the trails?

    Does anyone have suggestions on how we can protect the trails from further tree removal (damage)?
    Last edited by Missing in Action; 05-28-2008 at 11:47 PM.

  2. #2
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    Horses in the tunnels? Do they not have enogh places to ride? How do they fit? I'll have no problem stopping and asking them what's the point of horses being down there.

  3. #3
    Eric at ITSA Bike Shop
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    aren't those trees part of the trail? I really hope that they didn't remove it cause that's pretty uncool :S

  4. #4
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    afaik, those trees are endangered or at least protected.

    are you a member of the multi use trails yahoo group? they should be alerted...

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MultiUseTrails/

  5. #5
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead!

    Go back up there and get photographs, ASAP. Skip work, take the rest of the day for riding and print this note for your boss to read.

    Seriously, photos ASAP. Click the link in my sig, upload photos there or post here...either is fine. I need good directions for where you're talking about, and a GoogleEarth aerial with some color scribbles (or GPS/TOPO) would be great. MTC and SDMBA volunteers will chase this down, and I will be on the phone with Rangers this morning. On second thought, clear directions posting is not a good idea on here...how did I morph into elitist scum?... but yeah: click the linky. SDMBA are members of MTC, too.

  6. #6
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    I usually ride there during lunch on Fridays. If someone gives me an idea where to go, I could get some pics.

  7. #7
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    Update

    I went back this morning to get photos and better assess the damage. I'll post photos later or send them to Eric Basel or the appropriate party. I have pictures of the stumps, 2 of which measure >6" in diameter at 5' from the ground where they were cut. Also, pictures of the downed trees, the resultant large gaps in the canopy, horse turds and many horse tracks. Many smaller branches were pulled down or were cut in this area.

    This brought back an observation from last week. There were a bunch of clippings in the general vicinity. There is an entrance in from the brush, and it was along this connector. My first thought was how odd this was because there really were no low branches for a cyclist or hiker. Later, I noticed fresh horse turds and tracks as I exited out into the brush, but did not put two and two together at the time. Now it is rather obvious that some equestrian or group of equestrians is making an effort to increase the height of the trails, even at the expense of the canopy. They have made two trail cutting efforts in less than one week, and they have moved from clipping smaller branches to the outright removal of large trees. Making this an equestrian trail could require the removal of hundreds of large trees...

    My camera and photos are safe at home and I am now at work. Maybe I'll post them at lunch.

  8. #8
    Single(Pivot)and Happy
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    I'll be in that area around 11:30am. If someone hasn't taken pictures yet, PM me with specific directions. I'm leaving my house at 9:30am, I need to know before I leave in order to pack gear and bike.
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  9. #9
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    Both/all of you, please take photos.

    It's probably a good idea to post them for folks here to see, but please also either upload them to the MTC site or mail full-res to me, along with a description of where they're taken, when and your real name/contact information. If you've got one of those antiquated cameras that inserts a date/time, activate that feature, please.

    Of course, if you encounter anyone doing any cutting or etc... take their photo, too.

  10. #10
    Single(Pivot)and Happy
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    I have about 1-1/2 hours between appointments. Anyone care to let me know where I can enter and get to this area quickly? Thanks.
    The suspension of your bike sucks if it's different than mine. Really. It sucks. Big time.

  11. #11
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    Boulder Pilot,

    I PM'ed my phone number to you.

  12. #12
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    One thing will always be true: At least mountain bikers don't cut down trees!

  13. #13
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    Idea!

    Good work, you two. Seriously.

    Hey in the meantime for the rest of us: Don't Get Too Inflamed! It's good to be upset at vandalization of habitat, and it's appropriate to react with an inquiry about how you can help, whom you can call and what you can do. But, it's not going to do any of us any good to burn up all that energy with online rage. Be inflamed, but channel that energy into action to protect this amazing trails network and habitat from destruction.

  14. #14
    ocd
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    So if the hrose folks cut down the trees

    and Maybe the trails are legal and maybe they are not. Maybe the trees are endangered and no one should be riding through them. What would the final outcome be?

    "all horses are banned but bikes are allowed"

    or

    "fence off the area, post it and protect the endanged trees"

    Tread lightly my friends.

    To catch a fish you need to think like a fish.

  15. #15
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    I rode through Deer Canyon/Tunnels yesterday. I noticed many spots where large branches were downed and blocking the trail. The way they were laying and the way theywere placed on "blind" curves, it looked like it was intentional. I thought it was very strange. Unfortunately I didn't have my camera.
    I hope you have a big trunk... 'cuz I'm puttin' my bike in it.

  16. #16
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    If you take photos, please double up: close up of the cut/broken area, then a wider shot for context, in each location where trimming or major cutting have taken place.

  17. #17
    Single(Pivot)and Happy
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    Bryan (Missing in Action) and I rode down to the area in question this afternoon. We took pictures that we will upload to the file that EBasil mentioned above.

    We found numerous sawn cut branches (Bryan measured one at 5" dia.) with sawdust still on the ground. Even worse for some of the trees, we found many freshly ripped off branches, at a height over 6' from the ground. We have pictures of hoof prints, and a huge pile of steaming horseshlt.

    We still don't know who is doing this illegal trail building. We don't know who is damaging this pristine natural environment. So let's not lower ourselves to the level of certain other trail user groups that don't hesitate to accuse us mountain bikers of doing all the damage whenever damage is discovered.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boulder Pilot
    We still don't know who is doing this illegal trail building. So let's not lower ourselves to the level of certain other trail user groups that don't hesitate to accuse us mountain bikers of doing all the damage whenever damage is discovered.
    It's really TALL mountain bikers cutting those branches.

  19. #19
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    Do the equestrian people not have enough "open" trails that they have to invade some of the best trails in the area, we already have to steer around they're crap, and yield to them at a moments notice. Can't we all just get along?

  20. #20
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    When is the next CAC meeting? Does anyone have contact info for the Ranger? I will be up there today for a ride. Can we post some signs or something asking people not to cut or build? I am truly fed up with this crap. With gas prices being so high I can't afford to drive somewhere to find a nice trail. PQ, hodges, sycamore and Mission are just about all I have. Cutting the canopy on that trail will cause it to dry out and erode and make it just another singletrack. Maybe if we can just explain that to these idiots.

  21. #21
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    To the best of my knowledge the trail is on private property so the ranger's wouldn't be able to enforce. I would be a shame to see all that hard work go to waste because of erosion. Informing seems to be the best tact.

  22. #22
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    Has SDMBA been advised here?
    "Hesitation is the Mother of Failure!"

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  23. #23
    ocd
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    Drama Llama reporting for duty.

    I spent about 1.5 down there this morning, saw one guy pop out, or at least he was at the top of the trail. First time in a couple of months (I dont seem to find it as maximumawesome as others I guess).

    Personally, I don't own a horse and I'm not sticking up for the horsey folks but if it were near and dear to my heart, I would keep quiet and anything going on there.

    A couple of piles of dung were spotted, a few hoof prints, a few cut branches. However the amount of "fresh" trails cut in the surrounding area, the high amount of "teeth marks" in low lying branches and the "non native" installs points to plenty of guilt on both sides of the fence (literally both sides of the fence that is "posted")

    I say drop it, remove this post, do whatever but any attention will be negative attention on both "sides" of the fight.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocd
    I spent about 1.5 down there this morning, saw one guy pop out, or at least he was at the top of the trail. First time in a couple of months (I dont seem to find it as maximumawesome as others I guess).

    Personally, I don't own a horse and I'm not sticking up for the horsey folks but if it were near and dear to my heart, I would keep quiet and anything going on there.

    A couple of piles of dung were spotted, a few hoof prints, a few cut branches. However the amount of "fresh" trails cut in the surrounding area, the high amount of "teeth marks" in low lying branches and the "non native" installs points to plenty of guilt on both sides of the fence (literally both sides of the fence that is "posted")

    I say drop it, remove this post, do whatever but any attention will be negative attention on both "sides" of the fight.
    it's no mtrp...

    i see where you're coming from, but point is though they have to be stopped. eventually, this area will be up for grabs -- it already has the attention, and those horsey folks might cut off access for us by sabotage.

    there shouldn't be any non native installs anymore -- are you talking about structures?

  25. #25
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead!

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmangts
    When is the next CAC meeting? Does anyone have contact info for the Ranger? I will be up there today for a ride. Can we post some signs or something asking people not to cut or build? I am truly fed up with this crap. With gas prices being so high I can't afford to drive somewhere to find a nice trail. PQ, hodges, sycamore and Mission are just about all I have. Cutting the canopy on that trail will cause it to dry out and erode and make it just another singletrack. Maybe if we can just explain that to these idiots.
    The next CAC meeting is July 17th, at 7pm. The LPCP CAC site is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LPCPCAC Deer Canyon is not yet within the LPCP, but the CAC is stocked with representatives of the equestrian community that have professed a duty to relay information regarding trails to their user groups and interested parties.

    Deer Canyon and these trails are on private property, and the Ranger staff will NOT be enforcing anything, notwithstanding that the actual landowner may be liable for removal/cutting of coastal scrub oak from his land.

    Your observations regarding the effect of canopy removal (not to mention iron-shod hooves) on the trails there are well-taken.

  26. #26
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    So here is the final assessment of damage. Four large trees cut down (by saw), numerous large branches cut, 3 large holes in the canopy, such that an area 50 feet long which had previously been completely dark, cool and shaded at mid-day is now open to the sun, brightly lit and hot. An equestrian can now ride 50 feet further along the trail without dismounting than previously. Four large stumps about 4-5 feet high, curve out at an angle perfectly suited to bang one’s head on. Four downed trees partially block the trail.

    I still have 20 or so photos which document the damage and show equestrian presence. I am still wrestling with time and technical issues for getting these pictures posted here and on the Yahoo site.

    There are a lot of opinions expressed here which seem a bit over the top. First, I don’t believe that this incident was sanctioned by the equestrian community, but is the result of an individual or group of rogue equestrians. Second, it wouldn’t matter to me whether the cutting was done by hikers, cyclists, equestrians, migrants or hunters, I just want to do what I can to stop it from continuing. This is a well established trail, and the trees are really what make this trail unique. Third, it is well established that cyclists and hikers can travel all the trails without need for making any alterations to the trail, other than perhaps periodic maintenance as would be required on any trail.

    Incursions onto these trails by equestrians has been rare but rather obvious when it does occur: Horse tracks, horse turds, and of course purposely broken or cut branches and trees. Equestrians are unable to traverse the trail while mounted and I believe much of the cutting by equestrians has been done just to lead the horse up the trail while dismounted. Plain and simple, the trails are not suitable for equestrian use. I think that the equestrian community as a whole recognizes this and has stayed out of the tunnels. They are not the challenge we face in the tunnels.

    Hardcore environmentalist, on the other hand, had high hopes that this area of public land would be their own private playground. These are the true elitists who believe that neither hiker, cyclist or equestrian is enlightened enough to fully appreciate the natural world. This is the group that I believe we will go head-to head with over continued access to the tunnel trails. Our best strategy here will be to show that we can be good stewards of the land, and this may require that we occasionally reel in a few rogue equestrians, cyclists and hikers.

  27. #27
    Master of the Face Plant
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocd
    I spent about 1.5 down there this morning, saw one guy pop out, or at least he was at the top of the trail. First time in a couple of months (I dont seem to find it as maximumawesome as others I guess).

    Personally, I don't own a horse and I'm not sticking up for the horsey folks but if it were near and dear to my heart, I would keep quiet and anything going on there.

    A couple of piles of dung were spotted, a few hoof prints, a few cut branches. However the amount of "fresh" trails cut in the surrounding area, the high amount of "teeth marks" in low lying branches and the "non native" installs points to plenty of guilt on both sides of the fence (literally both sides of the fence that is "posted")

    I say drop it, remove this post, do whatever but any attention will be negative attention on both "sides" of the fight.
    OCD makes a good point. It seems no matter how you view it MTBers get screwed. I agree the trail is not really maximumawsome as you put it but compared to other trails in the area it is pretty nice. I agree we are all guilty but the cutting is unacceptable.

  28. #28
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    Just got back from there. I didn't see very much in the way of fresh cuts. No horse poop at all. There was one section with significant canopy removal.

  29. #29
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    I am out of town for a few... but there were a number of photos posted to the MTC site (including by one of the recent posters here). I'll see if I can get the others uploaded.

  30. #30
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    Hardcore environmentalist, on the other hand, had high hopes that this area of public land would be their own private playground. These are the true elitists who believe that neither hiker, cyclist or equestrian is enlightened enough to fully appreciate the natural world. This is the group that I believe we will go head-to head with over continued access to the tunnel trails. Our best strategy here will be to show that we can be good stewards of the land, and this may require that we occasionally reel in a few rogue equestrians, cyclists and hikers.


    As Brian (Missing in Action) , quoted above wrote, and after I reviewed official documents pertaining for the use of this land in the future, it doesn't look very good for ALL of us trail users. The fact is, the environmentalists would like to see the land in question PRESERVED in its natural state within the PRESERVE. What the environmentalists fail to comprehend is that we trail users (hikers, bikers, equestrians) ALSO want the land preserved in its natural state. All of us trail users simply want to be able to enjoy this land by RESPONSIBLY travelling through the land on designated trails.

    The environmentalists' are stating that Hikers, Equestrians, & Bikers (HEB's) cannot be trusted to act responsibly within the Preserve. I believe that there are rogue elements within each of the trail user groups that are adding credibility to this insulting statement.Each trail user group can point a finger at another trail user group and show examples of unresponsible trail use.

    Bottom line, if you see someone on a horse, don't assume they are part of the problem. Take the time to inform them of what is going on. The equestrians don't want to lose trail access just like us riders. And if you see riders, don't assume they are not cutting unauthorized trails. With three large trail user groups involved, if we ALL cannot stand as one and prove that we are stewards of the land, that we do respect nature, and that the PRIVILEGE of using the trails should be decided upon the fact that 99% of all trail user groups do act responsible, and that we can all work towards reeling in the other 1%. We cannot let the decision be based on the 1%.
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  31. #31
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    All I can say in response to that is, "Yeah, but No."

    See, I am sure that the very best chance for the trail community to preserve our access to these trails is if Deer Canyon comes into the jurisdiction and management of the Los Penasquitos Canyon Preserve, as the contiguous Carmel Mtn Mesa and Del Mar Mesa have also done. Los Pen IS a "preserve and not a park" (a catchphrase also unfortunately misused by opponents of bikes) but the clear policy of the City of San Diego is that trail use is consistent with management of preserves. Now, this doesn't extend to CONSTRUCTION of new trails necessarily, and there are those who might prefer to lock off the preserves and issue permits based on Birkenstock vintage, but the system is not opposed to trails.

    What's ironic about THESE trails is that they may meet their legal demise because of trail users. Early on, the problem was MTB stunt-builders dreaming of our little piece of B.C., and now it's equestrians jealous of trails they don't fit in and perfectly willing to chop, cut and hack their way in, as they've always done with impunity in and around the Preserve (before and after that designation). It's a sure thing that the character of these "reclaimed migrant trails" will change for the worse if they're widened and the canopy is cut out so that there's 10-12' of clearance for 4' wide equestrian trails. Would that be the only bad thing to come of such "work"?

  32. #32
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    Has there been an amendment to the Los Penaquitos Master Plan as far as mountain biking trails are concerned? If so, could someone provide me direction where I may read this?

    According to the LPMP, it states,"Mountain bikes are to stay on the main service road. Signs are to be posted at all intersections with the main service road informing mountain bikers of severe penalties for going off the main service road."

    The Tunnel trails, officially refered to as the "Enclosed Corridor", will they be incorporated into the main service road?
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  33. #33
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    See below, my friend...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boulder Pilot
    Has there been an amendment to the Los Penaquitos Master Plan as far as mountain biking trails are concerned? If so, could someone provide me direction where I may read this?
    No, that document has not yet been revised or updated. There is a committee to do so, and it's moving very slowly. As the Chair of that committee, I will say that it's been hard to get much help from the committee members. This has been reported in the open LPCP-CAC meetings and the published minutes, which are available for all to read on the LPCP-CAC yahoo site (yeah, yeah... it's free, so we use it), as is the actual Master Plan. The Master Plan, and significant discussion about it are also on the MTC Yahoo site, of which you're a member, so you have full access to a lot of files.

    According to the LPMP, it states,"Mountain bikes are to stay on the main service road. Signs are to be posted at all intersections with the main service road informing mountain bikers of severe penalties for going off the main service road."
    That's exactly what it says. Does it say anything about dogs in the Master Plan? The Master Plan contains useful elements but was certainly used as an engine for anti-bike, anti-family, anti-pet and anti-access policies favored by those that worked on it. From day one of its adoption, aspects were immediately and correctly ignored by City and County Rangers. I've given a hint regarding one.

    What does the LPCP Trails Plan say about bicycle access on trails? That's the operative document.

    The Tunnel trails, ... will they be incorporated into the main service road?
    The main service road, also referred to as The Main Trail, is a six-mile long fire road on the south side of Penasquitos Creek that extends from the County Equestrian Staging Area westerly to Sorrento Valley Road and/or the City's Sorrento Valley Staging Area. Deer Canyon is nowhere near the main service road, of course.

  34. #34
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    disgusted!!

    I will probably get bombed for this but here it goes: remember when the tunnels were sort of a secret? Now it was never really a secret but it had that feel to it, something special...special enough to not lose. Lately, being the last couple of weeks I have seen things on the tunnels that have turned my stomach and lead me to believe that regardless of horse travel and their idiot owner/riders our days are numbered over there. Last Sunday in particular I saw a group of three riders two with no helmets riding marginally capable bikes at best. I am not an elitest but this tells me that these three were prime canditates to get really hurt really fast. I attempted to make small talk and mention that helmets really do save lives and of course my concern was met with "yeah whatever". Later on my ride i saw a biker throwing a candy wrapper onto the trail floor while riding by the stream and yes i picked it up. Two weeks ago i saw a group of six or seven riders all neatly decked out in their Trek jerseys ride right past my buddy with a flat saying while laughing and i qoute "sure hope you brought a spare", not one offered to help or ask if he needed a spare. Folks i am telling everyone our biggest concern on these trail is ourselves. Now on the flip side one guy, super cool riding solo stopped immediately in his tracks and offered anything to us that we needed, and in the end showed us a little trail that we had never seen before and we have been riding in pq since the early 90's. My point is that the bikers will kill this trail system for us faster then the horsies if we don't stop it. One head trauma, trash, ignorant wolf packs of riders etc... I am not going to say how because i don't have the answer but protect this area any way you can. Be a good steward of the land, and just maybe don't lead anyone on two wheels to the tunnels if your insides tell you they will not promote that philosophy, remember this...chances are that if you are reading this post you care...not everyone does.

  35. #35
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    agreed 100%

    Quote Originally Posted by SIK SD
    I will probably get bombed for this but here it goes: remember when the tunnels were sort of a secret? Now it was never really a secret but it had that feel to it, something special...special enough to not lose. Lately, being the last couple of weeks I have seen things on the tunnels that have turned my stomach and lead me to believe that regardless of horse travel and their idiot owner/riders our days are numbered over there. Last Sunday in particular I saw a group of three riders two with no helmets riding marginally capable bikes at best. I am not an elitest but this tells me that these three were prime canditates to get really hurt really fast. I attempted to make small talk and mention that helmets really do save lives and of course my concern was met with "yeah whatever". Later on my ride i saw a biker throwing a candy wrapper onto the trail floor while riding by the stream and yes i picked it up. Two weeks ago i saw a group of six or seven riders all neatly decked out in their Trek jerseys ride right past my buddy with a flat saying while laughing and i qoute "sure hope you brought a spare", not one offered to help or ask if he needed a spare. Folks i am telling everyone our biggest concern on these trail is ourselves. Now on the flip side one guy, super cool riding solo stopped immediately in his tracks and offered anything to us that we needed, and in the end showed us a little trail that we had never seen before and we have been riding in pq since the early 90's. My point is that the bikers will kill this trail system for us faster then the horsies if we don't stop it. One head trauma, trash, ignorant wolf packs of riders etc... I am not going to say how because i don't have the answer but protect this area any way you can. Be a good steward of the land, and just maybe don't lead anyone on two wheels to the tunnels if your insides tell you they will not promote that philosophy, remember this...chances are that if you are reading this post you care...not everyone does.
    No bombing from me, I agree with you.

    2 years ago, 75% of the riders didn't know the area existed. I myself would have to circle around a few times to find it and I knew it was there.

    But people didn't keep quiet. People didn't know when to say when and now we are where things are. Hell, groups that SHOULDN't have been posting pictures of questionably legal trails did (and probably still do).

    At any rate do yourself a favor and don't show anyone else that the solo guy showed you.
    Ride it, enjoy it, share it with a buddy who can keep it to himself. If things all get turned into public land and open to bikes, have a hayday. Otherwise, keep it to yourself.

  36. #36
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    Four Years Ago...

    When I first started exploring and riding in and around the tunnels, you were as likely to run into one of the following, as you were into another mountain biker: motorcycles, ATVs, 4WD vehicles, migrant camps, someone living in their car, some weirdo just hanging out, a group of young adults or high school kids drinking beer or alcohol, an unattended fire from said party still smoldering the next day, illegal dumping, and garbage left from all of the above users.

    The place was an eyesore with a “wild west”, “anything goes”, “I don’t feel completely safe” atmosphere. The trails weren’t in nearly as good of shape as they are now because they weren’t ridden enough, and they weren’t ridden enough because they weren’t in good shape, being mostly a selection of old migrant trails, motorcycle trails and 4WD vandalism.

    As the trails have become popular with mountain bikers, and access to vehicles has become more difficult, migrants removed from Deer Canyon, etc, the atmosphere of this place has vastly improved. Sure there are going to be inconsiderate people in any group, but I just don’t see mountain bike usage as a problem here.

    As the number of mountain bikers has increased, the other users I mentioned above have found this area to be less desirable and have moved on. Conversely, hikers, trail runners and equestrians have increased as a result, but not to nearly the same degree as mountain bikers. I credit mountain bikers and their use of these trails as the major force in reclaiming what was once a wasteland into a beautiful and valuable recreational resource for San Diego.

    And finally: If this place had been kept secret, mountain bikers would have just been one more undesirable, easy to displace user of the land, not a major force to be reckoned with. Secret trails are always going to be much easier to close down because there are fewer riders riding them and a much smaller, “fringe” outcry when they are.

    My two cents.
    Last edited by Missing in Action; 06-05-2008 at 02:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing in Action
    When I first started exploring and riding in and around the tunnels, you were as likely to run into one of the following, as you were into another mountain biker: motorcycles, ATVs, 4WD vehicles, migrant camps, someone living in their car, some weirdo just hanging out, a group of young adults or high school kids drinking beer or alcohol, an unattended fire from said party still smoldering the next day, illegal dumping, and garbage left from all of the above users.

    The place was an eyesore with a “wild west”, “anything goes”, “I don’t feel completely safe” atmosphere. The trails weren’t in nearly as good of shape as they are now because they weren’t ridden enough, and they weren’t ridden enough because they weren’t in good shape, being mostly a selection of old migrant trails, motorcycle trails and 4WD vandalism.

    As the trails have become popular with mountain bikers, and access to vehicles has become more difficult, migrants removed from Deer Canyon, etc, the atmosphere of this place has vastly improved. Sure there are going to be inconsiderate people in any group, but I just don’t see mountain bike usage as a problem here.

    As the number of mountain bikers has increased, the other users I mentioned above have found this area to be less desirable and have moved on. Conversely, hikers, trail runners and equestrians have increased as a result, but not to nearly the same degree as mountain bikers. I credit mountain bikers and their use of these trails as the major force in reclaiming what was once a wasteland into a beautiful and valuable recreational resource for San Diego.

    And finally: If this place had been kept secret, mountain bikers would have just been one more undesirable, easy to displace user of the land, not a major force to be reckoned with. Secret trails are always going to be much easier to close down because there are fewer riders riding them and a much smaller, “fringe” outcry when they are.

    My two cents.
    Yup, saw it all in the early nineties also, plus people having sex, pot growing farms, people hunting little creatures with rifles etc.. etc...

    And i agree with everything you said but my point is more this:

    Would you let anyone date your daughter?

    All i am saying is if you care about something a lot you should take care of it a lot, and maybe not everyone deserves to enjoy it, maybe some should be directed to the pretty waterfall. Maybe the privelage should be earned. Secret no, it never was a secret, we were just more selective who we shared it with. I don't wan't to peel some bone heads skull off the trail because they were too stupid to wear a helmet...then little johnny's mom sues someone and poof it's gone. Also, i don't like inconsiderate people, and frankly i have only experienced inconsiderate people in the tunnels recently. I guess it's just coincedence.
    Last edited by SIK SD; 06-05-2008 at 03:09 PM.

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    i just plucked this from STR-brand new post

    New Fence (Repaired) at LPQ

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Fish and Game was repairing the fence line just east of the big trees up on the mesa. Shiny new fence.
    Last edited by SIK SD; 06-05-2008 at 06:25 PM.

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    There was a posting on this site a few months ago by Mike Maio, our LPQ CAC representative stating this was going to happen. He also stated that the Fish and Game did not intend to stop bicycle or pedestrian traffic through the area. Not sure if this means all of the trails through the F&G preserve are to remain open...

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    can someone gimme directions from north county? I wanna check this ride out.

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    no need for directions

    Quote Originally Posted by Pan1c
    can someone gimme directions from north county? I wanna check this ride out.
    Just hit up one of the many "group rides" . You will get shown all around, bring a few of your friends when you do but hurry because it isn't going to open to riding for long.

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    The only way these trails will not be "open for long" is if we don't do anything to change how these trails should be used.
    The suspension of your bike sucks if it's different than mine. Really. It sucks. Big time.

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    personally i think that this post is kinda making a big deal out of nothing. ok equestrian riders should not be cutting down trees, and i think that we can all agree on that. i discovered these trails about 3 years ago, when drugs and migrant workers were still common, as part of a high school (im not going to mention which one) cross country team. while i think that people should not vandalize these trails i do not think that saying that equestrians and runners and even assorted hikers should not be allowed. i think that the tunnel trails are probably not the best place for equestrians, due to their large size, i think that runners, bikers, and hikers should easily be able to get along, as long as they show each other respect, and don't damage the trails. keep this place a fun place to go riding, and running you guys, dont ruin it for everybody, dont get mad at people just because they arnt mountain bikers, or because they are relatively inexperienced, everyone has to start somewhere, even if you see horses, dont get angry with them, just tell them that you think that they are damaging the trails, and refer them to somewhere else to go riding, DONT yell at them and tell them to get lost.
    anyways thats my views on the subject.
    -Robert Smith

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    Who said these trails were not appropriate for bikers,hikers, and trail runners? What are you talking about?
    The suspension of your bike sucks if it's different than mine. Really. It sucks. Big time.

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    im sorry that was more in response to reactions i have been getting when running through there recently. recently there seems to be a lot of mountain bike only sentiments int here, it used to be that when running through there with our usual group of 10, bikers would be courteous enough to say high, or stop and let us pass, but recently when running through there, it seems more as if the riders are more willing to run you over then to speak to you, and one even went as far as to tell us that we shouldn't be there. but when i get on a mountain bike and ride through the trails, all of a sudden they say hi, and become more courteous. . . i was just trying to remind people that the trails are for everyone. . .

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    Robert,

    You don't need to apologize. Yes, we all agree that no one should be cutting anything on this land, be it trees or new trails. The big deal here is that these trails are on private land that is in the process of being turned over to the Preserve. If continued unauthorized building or destruction on the land continues, we, hikers, joggers, runners, birders, and riders may not get the privilege to user these trails.

    The only trail user group that is not appropriate for the trails in question are equestrians. You have been on the trails in question. The only way equestrians would be able to use this trail would be if the canopy was removed. To remove the canopy would destroy the uniqueness of the trail, destroy the natural growth habit of the oaks, and probably accelerate the erosion of the trail due to increased rainfall impact.

    I hope when the time comes for the community to voice there opinions on how these trails should fit in to the Preserve that we can count on you and your running group to be there.
    The suspension of your bike sucks if it's different than mine. Really. It sucks. Big time.

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    Carmel Valley Reader Newspaper came out, read that the closing of Intestines was the reason more folk's are flooding the Tunnels. I use to ride there just about everyday and did not see a flood of people, Mon-Fri I was lucky to see 3 people at the most. I never saw a Horse in the Tunnels and as far as Joggers I saw 1 or 2 in a year period.

    Man those guys are just making excuse to close the Tunnels down.

    The Paper also states its a sensitive habitat and there are protected species and Vernal pools?

    They did not care to much about that when Pardee waved the cash in front of them up at Intestines. T

    The Tunnels are so clean, bikers are not there to touch the animals they just stay on the single track and ride damaging nothing if anything they keep vandals a way.

    Paper reads that the City is going to decide to close or re-open the Tunnels on the 15th of Jan.

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    Carmel Valley Reader Newspaper came out, read that the closing of Intestines was the reason more folk's are flooding the Tunnels. I use to ride there just about everyday and did not see a flood of people, Mon-Fri I was lucky to see 3 people at the most. I never saw a Horse in the Tunnels and as far as Joggers I saw 1 or 2 in a year period.

    Man those guys are just making excuse to close the Tunnels down.

    The Paper also states its a sensitive habitat and there are protected species and Vernal pools?

    They did not care to much about that when Pardee waved the cash in front of them up at Intestines. T

    The Tunnels are so clean, bikers are not there to touch the animals they just stay on the single track and ride damaging nothing if anything they keep vandals a way.

    Paper reads that the City is going to decide to close or re-open the Tunnels on the 15th of Jan.

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    Do you have a link to the particular story?

    The Jan. 15th date is no longer operative, as of December when it was announced the RMP will be done no sooner than February and that the trails plan will go to the Del Mar Mesa development Planning Board for review and approval. That makes March '09 the earliest possible time for review by the LPCP CAC of whatever makes it past the DMM crowd.

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    Here you go, the story is under Trails and Tribulations continues on page A-10

    http://www.delmartimes.net/news/2521...ine-highlights
    Last edited by GreyCarpet; 01-03-2009 at 10:22 AM.

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