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  1. #1
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    Marines in Sycamore Canyon last Sat July 12.

    The marines had a group of ATVs located about 100 yards past the signs in the dry creekbed to the west of the big power tower and they were turning back bikers. A rider in the lot near the high school also told me he had been given a $200 citation in the Spring-Oak canyon area for being on the base about 2 weeks ago. He didn't know exactly where he was, but it wasn't on the ridge. FYI

  2. #2
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    You can expect more closures and more enforcement in other areas as well. Based on recently released USFWS documents you will soon see more trails closed at Sweetwater, Otay etc. The plans they show for Del Mar Mesa bear almost no resemblance to trail plans we have seen proposed by SDMBA. Basically, San Diego is getting screwed. What trails remain will be dumbed down and overused. Trail user conflict will rise because we are all getting squeezed in. Hikers, Equestrians and trail runners are getting screwed too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandmangts View Post
    You can expect more closures and more enforcement in other areas as well. Based on recently released USFWS documents you will soon see more trails closed at Sweetwater, Otay etc. The plans they show for Del Mar Mesa bear almost no resemblance to trail plans we have seen proposed by SDMBA. Basically, San Diego is getting screwed. What trails remain will be dumbed down and overused. Trail user conflict will rise because we are all getting squeezed in. Hikers, Equestrians and trail runners are getting screwed too.
    ^^^^ This is why I bike away from local trails...like up in Cuyamaca, Mt Laguna, Lake Morena, OC, LA mtns, Northern Cali, etc.
    These areas are not very crowded, as a lot of people are just too damned lazy to drive more than an hour or two in either direction to ride...or ride trails that are long uphill and steep...too much work!

    As I have stated before, I also hike the same trails I bike...local hiking trails are too crowded...so I hike up in the mountains...very little people or no people for hours on end!

    The writing is on the wall....I saw it many years ago.

    Perhaps a silver lining: as a result of the closure of local trails, more trails might open in the mountains! Like the PCT!!!

    Who is with me???

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTSO2112 View Post
    ^^^^ This is why I bike away from local trails...like up in Cuyamaca, Mt Laguna, Lake Morena, OC, LA mtns, Northern Cali, etc.
    These areas are not very crowded, as a lot of people are just too damned lazy to drive more than an hour or two in either direction to ride...or ride trails that are long uphill and steep...too much work!

    As I have stated before, I also hike the same trails I bike...local hiking trails are too crowded...so I hike up in the mountains...very little people or no people for hours on end!

    The writing is on the wall....I saw it many years ago.

    Perhaps a silver lining: as a result of the closure of local trails, more trails might open in the mountains! Like the PCT!!!

    Who is with me???
    The PCT will never be legal for bikes. There will be other trails opening up in rural communities that need the additional revenue and that's great but having to burn $50 bucks worth of gas every time I want to have a good ride or hike sucks. For those of us who have small kids and demanding jobs it is also nice to be able to squeeze in an hour or two of riding after work or early on the weekends and still have time to spend with the kids.

    I agree, the writing has been on the wall since trails started getting bulldozed over a decade ago. Every time it happens we have the same dedicated handful of people who try to do something about it only to be told by officials like Zirkle and MTRP board members and USFWS to sit down and shut up. We are told how selfish we are and how there are so many miles of trails for us to ride while developers bulldoze mile after mile of trail and habitat. Such bullsh!t.

    Consider this, as trails start to dwindle more hikers, bikers and equestrians will be heading to the mountains. Trails that were once tranquil and lightly used will become more crowded. User conflict will rise. More lands will be proposed for Wilderness designation and other protections which will ban bikes permanently.
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  5. #5
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    the more that is closed, the more new trails there are/will be. No officials want to address this, it's simply a "not my problem" approach, the "environmental destruction" is much greater with the more and more trails being built.

    I'd say the riders have tried fairly hard to present and help with solutions. City and County government doesn't want to address things.

    It will take a few more years but I imagine someone, at some point will get it.

    This being said, I've seen various packs of riders from 6-20+ riding where they know they should not be. Not just riding but hanging out on ridge lines socializing. Not a good idea.

  6. #6
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    Kind of silly to say that people who can't drive 2-4 hours every time they want to go on a ride are "too damned lazy"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ocd View Post
    the more that is closed, the more new trails there are/will be. No officials want to address this, it's simply a "not my problem" approach, the "environmental destruction" is much greater with the more and more trails being built.

    ....
    Agree.

    Every time they close popular trails, more illegal trails get built. Then priorities shift and they stop enforcing the old trails, so people ride them again. When a rule doesn't make sense people don't listen to it. The fear of being ticketed only goes so far since they can't be there all the time.

    If they don't get (and listen) to rider input and provide good trails this will always be a problem.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mama View Post
    Kind of silly to say that people who can't drive 2-4 hours every time they want to go on a ride are "too damned lazy"
    More like "too damned busy" or "too damned broke"
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mama View Post
    Agree.

    Every time they close popular trails, more illegal trails get built. Then priorities shift and they stop enforcing the old trails, so people ride them again. When a rule doesn't make sense people don't listen to it. The fear of being ticketed only goes so far since they can't be there all the time.


    If they don't get (and listen) to rider input and provide good trails this will always be a problem.
    I agree as well but I hope that the city would realize that the establishment of legal trail options only bolsters the desire to preserve these areas. Look at La Costa for example. It is a good challenging trail system and has been well maintained by bikers for quite a long time. My fear is that San Diego will become more like Marin where rangers lie in wait with radar guns to ticket bikers on legal trails.
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    It seems like the current approach (trying to actually speak with representatives, voice concerns, propose multi-use options, etc . . . ). How crazy would it be to try and make the positions that edict park plans elected rather than appointed? I realize that it's a double edged sword since electees would then cater to developers even more (is that even possible) but, at least there'd be the ability to opt for not rehiring.

  11. #11
    ocd
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    Mission Trails is going so overboard that they're closing trails which are actually park trails.

    I noticed 2 nights ago, the small 30-50 yard trail to the grinding rocks in the Grasslands was covered in 2 feet of brush. There used to be a sign pointing people to the rocks, that's gone too. I've emailed but no response yet.

    Honestly a lot of this is fallout from people who shouldn't be or should have never been in the leadership positions they are. The good old boy network works very well for them though, so onward we go.

  12. #12
    CEB
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    Take candy bars, lots of candy bars. Marines like candy bars! You might need to unwrap for them, as their hands are glued on to an M16, just ready for the enemy (that's you and me fellow mtn bikers) to make a bad move.

    Marine base is WAY overdue to close down and move the war games elsewhere. Our readiness is no longer an issue. Our country is OVER THE TOP ready to blow this earth up 100's of times. Enough with the BS.

  13. #13
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    yup

    also kind of funny that the proposed solution for san diego's trail issues is to ride trails that aren't in san diego..

  14. #14
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    Mountainbikers - the new INSURGENTS!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXmNuc_h90g

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEB View Post
    Take candy bars, lots of candy bars. Marines like candy bars! You might need to unwrap for them, as their hands are glued on to an M16, just ready for the enemy (that's you and me fellow mtn bikers) to make a bad move.

    Marine base is WAY overdue to close down and move the war games elsewhere. Our readiness is no longer an issue. Our country is OVER THE TOP ready to blow this earth up 100's of times. Enough with the BS.
    Oh I don't know. I kinda like having them around. Especially when fire season comes around.

    Marines in Sycamore Canyon last Sat July 12.-10313324_596861870421843_501316473749121070_n.jpg
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  16. #16
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    "Oh I don't know. I kinda like having them around. Especially when fire season comes around."

    Park that sheet at Pendleton, close enough when needed for fire eradication.

  17. #17
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    So sad. Sycamore is one of my favorites. Here's an idea. The military is always looking for ways to connect with the community. Since that is the most remote, useless edge of the base, maybe the Marines can set it aside as a mountain bike park open to the public. Ooh, and a parking lot right behind those houses on Medina.
    Goat Rider

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mama View Post
    Mountainbikers - the new INSURGENTS!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXmNuc_h90g
    I've been saying this here on emptybeer for the last couple years...San Diego has always been the point of the spear for privileged interests getting their way and leaving the public to deal with the after effects and pay the bill as well. It's always been this way.

    Zirkle is just the latest of the minions for the developers. Facts and studies don't matter to petty clerck-bureaucrats like him when their main job is to mollify developers and enable them to gobble up huge amounts of open space, cover it with McMansions and town homes, and move on after making a killing.

    That kind of job is called Public Service in San Diego, the Regressive capital of the Southwest.

    Richard Nixon didn't call this his "Lucky City" for nothing. This town LOVES a crook with a pocket full of bribe money.
    Re-Cycled Person who rides a mountain bicycle.

  19. #19
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    I sat down with the rangers at Elfin Forest recently and realized how much of a mess things are. The problem does not lie with any specific leadership group. The real problem is that the government as a whole does not grasp the concept of buying and maintaining lands for recreational use, they buy and maintain for preservation. Preservation is defined very, very narrowly with no easy ways to approve new trails etc.

    You also have multiple government entities involved with very different rules/goals in very small areas. Elfin Forest proper is paid for and maintained by Olivenhain Water District (of which I am resident) even though their main users come from San Marco and Escondido. The area at the bottom is controlled by The Escondido Creek Conservancy which uses funds from donations and grants from the State of California. Those grants are specifically for preservation and not recreation. The East side from Del Dios is controlled by San Diego County and the funds for that purchase also came from the same California State grants for preservation.

    Now, Elfin Forest wants to create a second entrance into the park to take some load off of the Way Up Trail. They would like this to be at the base of the dam, but there are access issues on the road which is technically owned by three different entities including the residents of Cielo. TECC would like to create more access on their lands as well, but they are not allowed to based on the grant money from the State. The state does audit trail creation every ten years and if too many are created it goes outside the bounds of the grant and they shut things down (EXACTLY what happened at MTRP) since the land is "not being preserved" in its natural state. This is outside the control of local rangers or even local government. Looking Del Dios Highlands (park off of Del Dios Highway) they also want to cut singletrack up to Elfin Forest, but are handcuffed by the State since the land is for conservation and preservation, NOT recreation.

    All of this comes from an entity that is actively engaging the mountain bike community and openly admits we are the most responsible and involved user group.

    So what does it all mean? If we want true change some organization needs to actively engage the Federal and State government and attempt to change perception around why the public wants lands set aside. It is NOT for preservation, it is for active recreation in most situations. The population base has radically changed in the last 30 years from sedentary to active especially in San Diego. The government has not caught up to this yet since it moves at a much slower pace.

    The other piece of this is that these entities are not specifically anti biker. They are trying to enforce the rules to maintain their grant money and maintenance budgets. Right now we are in the 10th year of the cycle where the State is verifying/auditing that the lands are being properly managed for preservation. The MTRP closures are a direct result of this, not the park rangers or even the County. If they did not close the trails their budgets would be eliminated since the money really comes from the State grants.

    All of this being said, I am just as frustrated as the rest of you and prior to my meeting with OMWD and TECC I also placed blame on the rangers, City and County organizations. Unfortunately it goes well beyond them and it is going to take years of work to change the views across the government organization.

    Upside is that once the audits and completed, enforcement will slowly dwindle and things will be back to relative normal 18 months from now. Not an ideal situation, but not the end of the world either.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEB View Post
    Marine base is WAY overdue to close down and move the war games elsewhere. Our readiness is no longer an issue. Our country is OVER THE TOP ready to blow this earth up 100's of times. Enough with the BS.
    Do you ever hear the helicopters and jets fly over? Do you know what that sounds is? It is freedom right over your head. This is NIMBY'ism at its worst.

    I am not some crazy right wing guy, but if you can't see the risks to the US right now you would have to be blind. Major escalations with an expansionist minded leader in Russia. A Chinese government that is going to have a major showdown with it's own population in the next 10-15 years. Middle Eastern extremist that would like to put the world back into the stone age. Etc, etc, etc. The reason our country and way of lives continue is because of our ability to project power and keep trouble far, far away from our borders.

    Overall I do not think we should be the World Police. Iraq was a joke and the void created by removing Saddam has created a void that is being filled by far more dangerous people, which is exactly the reason we kept him in power for so long. Afghanistan we went into with good intentions, but again as soon as we pull out a vacuum is created and things go right back to the way they were.

    Saying that we should start closing down more military bases does not sit well with me right now. There is far too much risk to us right now from both major nation/state entities and NGO's/terrorist organizations. When you see entire countries being taken over by radicals (Syria anyone?) the last thing you want to do is downsize your military. Nuclear bombs are not going to solve the modern day military problems we have which is what you reference with your comment of blowing the world up 100's of times over.

    /rant

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    I sat down with the rangers at Elfin Forest recently and realized how much of a mess things are. The problem does not lie with any specific leadership group. The real problem is that the government as a whole does not grasp the concept of buying and maintaining lands for recreational use, they buy and maintain for preservation. Preservation is defined very, very narrowly with no easy ways to approve new trails etc.

    You also have multiple government entities involved with very different rules/goals in very small areas. Elfin Forest proper is paid for and maintained by Olivenhain Water District (of which I am resident) even though their main users come from San Marco and Escondido. The area at the bottom is controlled by The Escondido Creek Conservancy which uses funds from donations and grants from the State of California. Those grants are specifically for preservation and not recreation. The East side from Del Dios is controlled by San Diego County and the funds for that purchase also came from the same California State grants for preservation.

    Now, Elfin Forest wants to create a second entrance into the park to take some load off of the Way Up Trail. They would like this to be at the base of the dam, but there are access issues on the road which is technically owned by three different entities including the residents of Cielo. TECC would like to create more access on their lands as well, but they are not allowed to based on the grant money from the State. The state does audit trail creation every ten years and if too many are created it goes outside the bounds of the grant and they shut things down (EXACTLY what happened at MTRP) since the land is "not being preserved" in its natural state. This is outside the control of local rangers or even local government. Looking Del Dios Highlands (park off of Del Dios Highway) they also want to cut singletrack up to Elfin Forest, but are handcuffed by the State since the land is for conservation and preservation, NOT recreation.

    All of this comes from an entity that is actively engaging the mountain bike community and openly admits we are the most responsible and involved user group.

    So what does it all mean? If we want true change some organization needs to actively engage the Federal and State government and attempt to change perception around why the public wants lands set aside. It is NOT for preservation, it is for active recreation in most situations. The population base has radically changed in the last 30 years from sedentary to active especially in San Diego. The government has not caught up to this yet since it moves at a much slower pace.

    The other piece of this is that these entities are not specifically anti biker. They are trying to enforce the rules to maintain their grant money and maintenance budgets. Right now we are in the 10th year of the cycle where the State is verifying/auditing that the lands are being properly managed for preservation. The MTRP closures are a direct result of this, not the park rangers or even the County. If they did not close the trails their budgets would be eliminated since the money really comes from the State grants.

    All of this being said, I am just as frustrated as the rest of you and prior to my meeting with OMWD and TECC I also placed blame on the rangers, City and County organizations. Unfortunately it goes well beyond them and it is going to take years of work to change the views across the government organization.

    Upside is that once the audits and completed, enforcement will slowly dwindle and things will be back to relative normal 18 months from now. Not an ideal situation, but not the end of the world either.
    Sounds like another option would be to stop funding state grants, and use local funds to acquire/maintain land for recreational purposes. (This coming from someone who's pretty darn liberal.) Downside here is that all the mountain bikers and other beneficiaries of trails would need to pony up the dough for trails/land. I don't see it happening. It's easier to kowtow to the state and get "free money" and then kick user groups off the land. And guess what, you can get additional money when you fine users for non-compliance.

    The real problem is that the "representatives" establishing regulations for land use (i.e. state/federal), and for agreeing to adhere to regulations in order to acquire land (local) and too short-sighted or lack concern for their more numerous, but less financially endowed constituents.

    In other words, we ain't getting represented, and I don't think there's much we can do 'bout it.

  22. #22
    CEB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    Do you ever hear the helicopters and jets fly over? Do you know what that sounds is? It is freedom right over your head. This is NIMBY'ism at its worst.

    I am not some crazy right wing guy, but if you can't see the risks to the US right now you would have to be blind. Major escalations with an expansionist minded leader in Russia. A Chinese government that is going to have a major showdown with it's own population in the next 10-15 years. Middle Eastern extremist that would like to put the world back into the stone age. Etc, etc, etc. The reason our country and way of lives continue is because of our ability to project power and keep trouble far, far away from our borders.

    Overall I do not think we should be the World Police. Iraq was a joke and the void created by removing Saddam has created a void that is being filled by far more dangerous people, which is exactly the reason we kept him in power for so long. Afghanistan we went into with good intentions, but again as soon as we pull out a vacuum is created and things go right back to the way they were.

    Saying that we should start closing down more military bases does not sit well with me right now. There is far too much risk to us right now from both major nation/state entities and NGO's/terrorist organizations. When you see entire countries being taken over by radicals (Syria anyone?) the last thing you want to do is downsize your military. Nuclear bombs are not going to solve the modern day military problems we have which is what you reference with your comment of blowing the world up 100's of times over.

    /rant
    In a nutshell: You've bought the fear, the whole package and can't back down. I understand, you are not the only one. It's cool.

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    I'll back you if you run for office Salespunk !

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    Quote Originally Posted by CEB View Post
    In a nutshell: You've bought the fear, the whole package and can't back down. I understand, you are not the only one. It's cool.
    You beat me to it!

    Btw, I was in the Military for 20 years and have worked 10 more with them as a civilian as well...so, I have seen (first-hand) how this game is played and works.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie View Post
    I'll back you if you run for office Salespunk !
    LOL awesome! I will let you know if I ever run!

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