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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbbrad View Post
    A private road just means the public is not responsible for maintaining it and that it doesn't have to meet the standards of a public way. It doesn't mean exclusivity. Public access is still allowed.
    so does this mean the horse trail is ok to ride on?


    I remember seeing a sign at the bottom of the horse trail saying it's private property or something. However, the sign didn't look official, it looked like someone made it.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmtt View Post
    so does this mean the horse trail is ok to ride on?


    I remember seeing a sign at the bottom of the horse trail saying it's private property or something. However, the sign didn't look official, it looked like someone made it.
    I would'nt ride it if I saw some lady on a white horse there......you might get kicked!!

  3. #203
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    So O.P. are you still on the trail talking to "the lady on the white horse". Come home for dinner it's getting cold.
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  4. #204
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    "A private road just means the public is not responsible for maintaining it and that it doesn't have to meet the standards of a public way. It doesn't mean exclusivity." This is far from accurate. Private roads are usually privately-maintained routes along easements IN PRIVATE PROPERTY from public streets to private properties otherwise blocked from access to those public streets. Easements are meant to benefit the owner of the easement, not the general public, and the grantor of the easement can tack on additional restrictions to further limit who can use the easement. Private roads can also be just a dozer track through private property, with no easement, in which case you have no legal justification for using the "road" unless you have permission of the landowner to use their property. This fails the "common sense test", of course - if you see a dirt road, with no signs, and your Camelbak is still half-full, of course you're gonna check it out, and all but the most paranoid of landowners (and their lawyers) will understand this. If it's got a sign, however, the important part of "private road" is the word "private".

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottR1 View Post
    "A private road just means the public is not responsible for maintaining it and that it doesn't have to meet the standards of a public way. It doesn't mean exclusivity." This is far from accurate. Private roads are usually privately-maintained routes along easements IN PRIVATE PROPERTY from public streets to private properties otherwise blocked from access to those public streets. Easements are meant to benefit the owner of the easement, not the general public, and the grantor of the easement can tack on additional restrictions to further limit who can use the easement. Private roads can also be just a dozer track through private property, with no easement, in which case you have no legal justification for using the "road" unless you have permission of the landowner to use their property. This fails the "common sense test", of course - if you see a dirt road, with no signs, and your Camelbak is still half-full, of course you're gonna check it out, and all but the most paranoid of landowners (and their lawyers) will understand this. If it's got a sign, however, the important part of "private road" is the word "private".
    Can you back this with City/County/State Law Codes?
    Ride Bikes, Drink Craft Beer, Repeat.

  6. #206
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    CALIFORNIA CODES VEHICLE CODE SECTION 490:
    “Private road or driveway” is a way or place in private
    ownership and used for vehicular travel by the owner and
    those having express or implied permission from the owner but
    not by other members of the public.

    It is also backed by common sense. "Private" doesn't mean "Public" by any stretch of stupidity. We've got enough problems as a mountain bike community that don't need to be exasperated by aholes breaking the law.

  7. #207
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    Can I post relevant codes? No, but I know a lawyer who can. She pointed me towards California Penal Code Section 602. Relevant parts (to cycling) are included below, as copied from the state's website. Your state's laws will undoubtedly differ. My notes are in {braces}, although some of those notes are from the lawyer, not me.

    602. Except as provided in subdivision (u), subdivision (v),
    subdivision (x), and Section 602.8, every person who willfully
    commits a trespass by any of the following acts is guilty of a
    misdemeanor:
    {Snip (a) through (g)}
    (h) (1) Entering upon lands or buildings owned by any other person
    without the license of the owner or legal occupant, where signs
    forbidding trespass are displayed, and whereon cattle, goats, pigs,
    sheep, fowl, or any other animal is being raised, bred, fed, or held
    for the purpose of food for human consumption; or injuring,
    gathering, or carrying away any animal being housed on any of those
    lands, without the license of the owner or legal occupant; or
    damaging, destroying, or removing, or causing to be removed, damaged,
    or destroyed, any stakes, marks, fences, or signs intended to
    designate the boundaries and limits of any of those lands.
    (2) In order for there to be a violation of this subdivision, the
    trespass signs under paragraph (1) must be displayed at intervals not
    less than three per mile along all exterior boundaries and at all
    roads and trails entering the land.
    (i) Willfully opening, tearing down, or otherwise destroying any
    fence on the enclosed land of another, or opening any gate, bar, or
    fence of another and willfully leaving it open without the written
    permission of the owner, or maliciously tearing down, mutilating, or
    destroying any sign, signboard, or other notice forbidding shooting
    on private property.
    (j) Building fires upon any lands owned by another where signs
    forbidding trespass are displayed at intervals not greater than one
    mile along the exterior boundaries and at all roads and trails
    entering the lands, without first having obtained written permission
    from the owner of the lands or the owner's agent, or the person in
    lawful possession.
    (k) Entering any lands, whether unenclosed or enclosed by fence,
    for the purpose of injuring any property or property rights or with
    the intention of interfering with, obstructing, or injuring any
    lawful business or occupation carried on by the owner of the land,
    the owner's agent, or by the person in lawful possession.
    (l) Entering any lands under cultivation or enclosed by fence,
    belonging to, or occupied by, another, or entering upon uncultivated
    or unenclosed lands where signs forbidding trespass are displayed at
    intervals not less than three to the mile along all exterior
    boundaries and at all roads and trails entering the lands without the
    written permission of the owner of the land, the owner's agent, or
    of the person in law
    (m) Entering and occupying real property or structures of any kind
    without the consent of the owner, the owner's agent, or the person
    in lawful possession.
    (n) Driving any vehicle, as defined in Section 670 of the Vehicle
    Code, upon real property belonging to, or lawfully occupied by,
    another and known not to be open to the general public, without the
    consent of the owner, the owner's agent, or the person in lawful
    possession.
    {However, Section 670 specifically EXCLUDES human-powered devices.}
    (p) Entering upon any lands declared closed to entry as provided
    in Section 4256 of the Public Resources Code, if the closed areas
    shall have been posted with notices declaring the closure, at
    intervals not greater than one mile along the exterior boundaries or
    along roads and trails passing through the lands. {Red-flag closures.}
    {Snip a bunch of stuff, including "trespassing" in airline terminals, runways, and etc. Every bit as boring as you might think.}
    602.8. (a) Any person who without the written permission of the
    landowner, the owner's agent, or the person in lawful possession of
    the land, willfully enters any lands under cultivation or enclosed by
    fence, belonging to, or occupied by, another, or who willfully
    enters upon uncultivated or unenclosed lands where signs forbidding
    trespass are displayed at intervals not less than three to the mile
    along all exterior boundaries and at all roads and trails entering
    the lands, is guilty of a public offense.
    {Labor organizers, process servers, and surveyors are exempt. This is not a trivial section, as land (in California) is taxed at its highest potential value, which is far higher for residential land than agricultural land. Consequently, large landowners restrict huge sections of their land to "agricultural purposes" and run a few goats or plant some grapes on the property, and cut their property taxes by 80%. This is a transparent mis-use of assessment practices, but legally makes their land "under cultivation" or "occupied by livestock" and drastically increases the penalties of anyone trespassing on that land. Marijuana growers do not get this property tax reduction. I feel your disappointment.}

    Penalty - Trespassing in California can be prosecuted as an offense, a misdemeanor, or a felony, depending on intent, impact, and history of the offender. It's usually prosecuted as a misdemeanor, with a maximum penalty of 6 months in jail and $1,000 fine, but it's usually much smaller, like $200 and the judge chews you out. In special cases of trespassing, like you're a known violent offender forcing your way into a battered woman's shelter, it's a stone cold felony and you will likely spend upwards of fifteen years in jail. Trespassing in other states has different consequences, like agricultural land in Nebraska or ranch land in Wyoming are likely to be protected by much stronger anti-trespassing laws.

    Whew! I need a beer, and I now owe my lawyer friend and her family a ride in Ahmanson. It was worth it.

  8. #208
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    I miss her so much. Keep this picture of her under my pillow.

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  9. #209
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    Wow...you got off cheap, Scott. My lawyer woulda charged me $500 for that C&P. Maybe more.

  10. #210
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    Hasnt somebody shot this woman and her horse yet? if not id suggest shooting her horse first, you wouldnt want her to miss seeing that, then pop her off second.
    Dont ever let the truth get in the way of a funny story....

  11. #211
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    the lady on the white horse (if you ran into her you know what im talking about)

    Quote Originally Posted by scvkurt03 View Post
    I don't know you, per se, but I imagine this is very much the worldview of a complete and utter a-hole.
    I guess it depends on how you read it. I think his point was that even if you are out with a generally courteous and respectful attitude and behavior, you're going to piss people off and there's just nothing you can do about it. So while you're doing you're best to think of others, you can't control their thoughts or behavior. And also I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and gosh darn it....people like me!
    All out of S**** and down to my last F***

  12. #212
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    Over here, a "private road" sign just means the council doesn't pay for its upkeep. "Private - no trespassing" is the one to watch out for.

  13. #213
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    From our ride today, Sunday Oct 6 @ 9am.

    In no way is this any "official" City / SM Mtns Conservancy / Gas Co, etc. sign. None of these would use angle iron shelving material as the structure, nor would they pour about 6" deep concrete to secure it.

    Now, I'm not saying weather or not what this sign says is true or not, as I do not know the answer. I do know cyclists have been riding this since the mid 80's however.

    It does look like someone had a very serious collision with the sign, maybe it is too close to the trail? We can only assume it was a hiker or horse back rider that collided. Looks like dogs don't think too much of it either!

    the lady on the white horse (if you ran into her you know what im talking about)-nobikessullycynhorsetrail.jpg
    .
    "...when your ride is nearly over, it seems to have lasted but an instant..."


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  14. #214
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    Lol

    That's hilarious. Collision my ass, I give that sign a short life expectancy.

  15. #215
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    No doubt about it.....that sign is a hazard. It should be removed ASAP.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonjm View Post
    Lol

    That's hilarious. Collision my ass, I give that sign a short life expectancy.
    Of course I was joking about that.
    .
    "...when your ride is nearly over, it seems to have lasted but an instant..."


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  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Salt View Post
    Of course I was joking about that.
    Yeah I figured. What mystifies me is why someone would waste all that energy attacking the poles when the obvious weak point is the sign itself

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by skitchy View Post
    Death rides a white horse...
    Pale horse... Death rode a Pale horse
    Red horse was War
    Black was Famine..

    Conquest rode a White horse..

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Salt View Post
    Of course I was joking about that.
    Why wait until the criminal issues are dealt with? You may have a solid civil case against the alleged person who put you in fear of your life and/or assaulted and/or battered you...

    Remember that it is sick and will continue to assault and/or batter and/or kill actual persons by it's crazed behavior. There is a very high probability that it's antisocial behavior will escalate until it is incarcerated or killed by someone that it is assaulting who is in desperate fear of their own life.

    Yo, crazed & white horse riding alleged female human, I bet that you have been hoping that no one would point this out.
    Enjoy.
    Abandoned the 26" wheel in May '03

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Salt View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	nobikessullycynhorsetrail.jpg 
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ID:	837143
    That is Pathetic.
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  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    That is Pathetic.
    Also doesn't say by whose authority it was erected.


    Time to dust off the unicycles...

  22. #222
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    I'm not here to argue the law and people need to get their own legal advice, but I can tell you that a "Private Road" sign does not equal "Private Property" or "No Trespassing".
    If they want to keep the public out legally (ie have cops remove them) they need to put up a gate & a fence & properly mark the property as private property and trespassing as prohibited. The sign they have up on Old Ranch Road saying "Private Road" "24 Hour Security Patrol" & "No Park Entry" does NOT cut it.
    Question for ScottR1 - Does your friend reallty think the sign they have up on Old Ranch Road entrance would result in someone being arrested for trespass? Really???

  23. #223
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    Neither the road at bottom nor the trail are privately owned end of story. The bunch of wankers who live down there would have put gates up it were so.

  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    That is Pathetic.
    Yeah, you'd think it would ripped out already!

  25. #225
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    I've never been on Old Ranch Road, as maps and GoogleEarth show that it doesn't have enough climbing to interest me. I'm sorry, I don't even know where the access on Old Ranch Road is located. Parcel maps do show the lower end of Old Ranch Road is a private easement through private property, from Sunset up to 1740 Old Ranch Road, but that's just a legal description, I have no idea what it looks like on the ground.

  26. #226
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    Hey ScottR1 - It's probably unwise to comment on something you know nothing about. Here's pic of the sign from the street view on google maps.
    the lady on the white horse (if you ran into her you know what im talking about)-old-ranch-sign.jpg
    You & your attourney friend need to do a little research on the differences between a "road on private property" and a "private road". In the meantime you should stop spreading misinformation that limits access for MTBers.

  27. #227
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    Does that little sign say "Maintained by the City of LA"?

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    Does that little sign say "Maintained by the City of LA"?
    You mean the only one thats defaced? Why yes, it does appear to be the case, and if so, I'd wager that gives a taxpayer rights to access. Though I'm not an attorney so don't listen to what I say.
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by 007 View Post
    You mean the only one thats defaced? Why yes, it does appear to be the case, and if so, I'd wager that gives a taxpayer rights to access. Though I'm not an attorney so don't listen to what I say.
    That's what I was thinking...

  30. #230
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    The City maintains a lot of roads on private property for things like fire fighting, access to radio towers, reservoirs, power lines, and other equipment. Because the City maintains the road does not mean it's open for public access.

    That being said there is nothing on that sign that would indicate that public travel on the road is not allowed.

  31. #231
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    "Not dedicated for public use" seems to me to be a deliberate way of getting as close to saying "public use prohibited" as they legally could. If there's no indication of it being private property I don't see what the problem is.
    buzzes like a fridge

  32. #232
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    Hey, bbbrad, don't pop a vein, 'k? How is copying and pasting sections of the California Penal Code "spreading misinformation?" Your photoshopped sign indicates property owners may try to limit access for park users, but it's not aimed specifically at MTBers, so drop the paranoia. The City's sign indicates the street is not for public use, so I, personally, who have some respect for private property, would (and will) avoid that street. Thanks for letting me know what the sign looks like, but I still don't know where it is.

  33. #233
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    can't believe you guys are debating this

    "not dedicated for public use"

    wtf does that mean? it means nothing..... if this was private the signs would say:

    PRIVATE : NO PUBLIC ACCESS, trespassers will be prosecuted etc etc and there would be a gate with a security guard knowing what kind of ********s live down there.

    I personally think the horse trail is a waste of time, really not a great trail, but after seeing all these signs im gonna tear town it at mach 5 at every chance I get.

  34. #234
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    I sent a note over to the Brentwood Community Council to see if they can clarify about the legal intention of Old Ranch Road and hopefully the trail.

    If there is unequivocal proof that the trail/road is private or public, I'm going to print that out and carry it around with me.

    It's silly that someone is going to get hurt before the use is clarified.

  35. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udyr View Post
    I sent a note over to the Brentwood Community Council to see if they can clarify about the legal intention of Old Ranch Road and hopefully the trail.

    If there is unequivocal proof that the trail/road is private or public, I'm going to print that out and carry it around with me.

    It's silly that someone is going to get hurt before the use is clarified.
    Well lets just hope that they come back and say that its public, because if they come back and say that it is in fact private, you just sealed the coffin on the Horse Trail . . . .

    What do I care . . . I don't even live near there any more
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  36. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by 007 View Post
    Well lets just hope that they come back and say that its public, because if they come back and say that it is in fact private, you just sealed the coffin on the Horse Trail . . . .

    What do I care . . . I don't even live near there any more
    My main concern is that people can protect themselves. I'd hate to have her kill or seriously injure someone and then have the horse mafia somehow convince the gas company to restrict mountain bikers from the area.

  37. #237
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    the lady on the white horse (if you ran into her you know what im talking about)

    Quote Originally Posted by jasonjm View Post
    can't believe you guys are debating this

    "not dedicated for public use"

    wtf does that mean? it means nothing..... if this was private the signs would say:

    PRIVATE : NO PUBLIC ACCESS, trespassers will be prosecuted etc etc and there would be a gate with a security guard knowing what kind of ********s live down there.

    I personally think the horse trail is a waste of time, really not a great trail, but after seeing all these signs im gonna tear town it at mach 5 at every chance I get.
    Dedicated is a legal term. It means a gift of land for public use.
    All out of S**** and down to my last F***

  38. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzaro View Post
    Dedicated is a legal term. It means a gift of land for public use.
    lol

    BTW the big red NO bikes sign is completely missing, its vanished.

    I did spot a new sign now about 10 foot down the horse trail which a smaller version of the big red sign, you cant really see it in my video but you kind of can

    goto 3 minutes 55 on my video to see

    testing hero 3+ black - YouTube

  39. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonjm View Post
    lol

    BTW the big red NO bikes sign is completely missing, its vanished.

    I did spot a new sign now about 10 foot down the horse trail which a smaller version of the big red sign, you cant really see it in my video but you kind of can

    goto 3 minutes 55 on my video to see

    testing hero 3+ black - YouTube
    If I had to wager a guess, that sign was placed illegally on Gas Co. property. Hence the move . . . in other words, it ain't an enforceable ban.
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

  40. #240
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    new sign

    I was there yesterday and took this picture of the new sign...definitely doesn't look official.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails the lady on the white horse (if you ran into her you know what im talking about)-photo.jpg  


  41. #241
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    Maybe we should put up our own sign...something like this?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails the lady on the white horse (if you ran into her you know what im talking about)-photo.2.jpg  


  42. #242
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    I like the double exclamation point after "Warning!!" Very offical looking.

  43. #243
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    Sounds like this person erecting these signs needs to be arrested for vandalizing public property.
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  44. #244
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    This thread has turned into a circus. Wasn't it originally about a lady on a white horse who violated the rights of some people? Now you guys are arguing about the wording, location, and officiality of some signs?

  45. #245
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    This thread is about all the rabid nutbags living around Sullivan canyon who have no regard for the law. What's next - booby traps on the trail?

  46. #246
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    Oh, wonderful...

  47. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmtt View Post
    I was there yesterday and took this picture of the new sign...definitely doesn't look official.
    I interpret that sign to mean that dirt bikes are allowed, I figure a dozen dirt bikes up and down the trail once a day for a week and they'll be begging the MTBers to come back...

  48. #248
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    Can't believe I just read every post on this thread, and still don't know what happened with the lady on the horse.

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    Re: the lady on the white horse (if you ran into her you know what im talking about)

    Quote Originally Posted by DieselvRR View Post
    Can't believe I just read every post on this thread, and still don't know what happened with the lady on the horse.
    Yeah... I'm subscribed... and I'm in Minnesota! It's like a book where you just want to get to the ending to find out what happens
    ...Be careful what you're looking at because it might be looking back...

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    Re: the lady on the white horse (if you ran into her you know what im talking about)

    Quote Originally Posted by duggus View Post
    Yeah... I'm subscribed... and I'm in Minnesota! It's like a book where you just want to get to the ending to find out what happens
    Also subscribed from the quad cities ia/il!
    The leg bone's connected to the Cash Bone!

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