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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbell View Post
    You guys and your speculation is comical. You're all wrong.

    Funny stuff from some of you. Sabotaging trails is not justified even if the trail is illegal or not. Nobody has the right to try and hurt people to promote their own ideas.
    If you are riding on private property, you have no business complaining. Unless it is public land and a sanctioned trail you are on your own with this issue and should know better than to bring it up here on a public forum where the powers that do govern these trails read up on what is going on.

    Your best bet is to find out if the trail is legal or not, and then proceed.
    telling me to stay out of a former bombing range next to a dump while you build huge houses next to it? Screw you.-sandmangts

  2. #27
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    Why would someone place cobbles on the outside edge of trails and along constrictions along the trail? If you stay with in the trail you are fine, if your line is off not so good. I don't know if this is a misguided and or controlling rider? Probably not, or a hiker that is creating physical barriers to make sure riders don't stray off the trail? Bill

  3. #28
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    Rocks are placed in the trail. Sometimes staggered throughout the middle of a turn, sometimes perpendicular to the trail to obstruct it with large rocks.
    I'm no slouch. I ride well, and within my limits, but am constantly pushing myself.

  4. #29
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    This happens on a lot of trails, even on sanctioned trails in MTRP. I agree with mbell, anyone who places obstructions on any trail for the purpose of causing injury is a bag of d***s. If the trail is not open for use then the person or agency responsible needs to make that clear with signs or fences instead of booby traps.
    Goat Rider

  5. #30
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    I rode Chumash last night and was concerned because one of the trails close to it received many complaints on so called booby traps. Chumash was fine, nothing unusual on the trail.
    GGR Girl Wendy E

  6. #31
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    How to catch a saboteur?

    MBell,

    Please let us know which trail you're referring to in Poway so that the rest of us can keep an eye out as well as be a bit more careful in approaching blind turns.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by moldau94 View Post
    MBell,

    Please let us know which trail you're referring to in Poway so that the rest of us can keep an eye out as well as be a bit more careful in approaching blind turns.
    If you are on this trail rocks are expected and anyone up on the ridge using this trail should be fine, but a rock or two will need to be dodged although I have heard the rocks are getting bigger in size

    The rocks actually make things kind of fun...this has been going on for almost a year now and always make the run down interesting. The problem is with the INTENTof the rocks.....some fuktard is puting the rocks there for a reason, and aiming to potentially hurt someone or cause someone to crash is really shitty.

    Whether the trail is legit(yes) or not, private property or not, whatever, intending to potentially hurt someone is really lame.....geeeze.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGR Girl Wendy View Post
    I rode Chumash last night and was concerned because one of the trails close to it received many complaints on so called booby traps. Chumash was fine, nothing unusual on the trail.
    Hello again,

    Do you mean hummingbird? What kind of booby traps?

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by rathbone View Post

    Whether the trail is legit(yes) or not, private property or not, whatever, intending to potentially hurt someone is really lame.....geeeze.
    Whether a trail is legal or not makes a huge difference in what we as users can do to catch this person and prosecute them. If it is on private property you are out of luck since you are trespassing.
    telling me to stay out of a former bombing range next to a dump while you build huge houses next to it? Screw you.-sandmangts

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Whether a trail is legal or not makes a huge difference in what we as users can do to catch this person and prosecute them. If it is on private property you are out of luck since you are trespassing.
    Not true. For the same reason it is a felony to booby trap your home for invaders. It is a crime regardless of where the trap is placed. People have been prosecuted and gone to prison for setting up traps in their home.

    Like people have said. Place a wildlife camera in the area. If you get a good shot of him I'd post his picture at every trailhead with a warning.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MountainMike68 View Post
    Not true. For the same reason it is a felony to booby trap your home for invaders. It is a crime regardless of where the trap is placed. People have been prosecuted and gone to prison for setting up traps in their home.

    Like people have said. Place a wildlife camera in the area. If you get a good shot of him I'd post his picture at every trailhead with a warning.
    ^^^ This is the truth.
    Re-Cycled Person who rides a mountain bicycle.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MountainMike68 View Post
    Not true. For the same reason it is a felony to booby trap your home for invaders. It is a crime regardless of where the trap is placed. People have been prosecuted and gone to prison for setting up traps in their home.
    Unless you can get away with it and dispose of the body.
    ...and proud member of the anti-sock puppet desolation

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MountainMike68 View Post
    Not true. For the same reason it is a felony to booby trap your home for invaders. It is a crime regardless of where the trap is placed. People have been prosecuted and gone to prison for setting up traps in their home.

    Like people have said. Place a wildlife camera in the area. If you get a good shot of him I'd post his picture at every trailhead with a warning.
    If there are no Trespassing signs, then you are gonna have a hard time suing the owner of the property.
    telling me to stay out of a former bombing range next to a dump while you build huge houses next to it? Screw you.-sandmangts

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    If there are no Trespassing signs, then you are gonna have a hard time suing the owner of the property.
    Dude. Why do you think CA has so many lawyers? (and no, this is not another 'lawyer joke'.........well, maybe a little.)
    Re-Cycled Person who rides a mountain bicycle.

  15. #40
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    A landowner can be successfully sued by a trespasser for injuries caused by his or her negligence if the trespass is reasonably foreseeable. Likewise, if the landowner knows someone is setting booby traps and fails to take reasonable steps to prevent it, he can be sued by a victim.

    Interestingly, by statute, in California, a landowner who allows recreational use of his property at no charge has no liability unless he actively does something that causes harm.

  16. #41
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    That probably hurts a little bit....

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce in SoCal View Post
    A landowner can be successfully sued by a trespasser for injuries caused by his or her negligence if the trespass is reasonably foreseeable. Likewise, if the landowner knows someone is setting booby traps and fails to take reasonable steps to prevent it, he can be sued by a victim.

    Interestingly, by statute, in California, a landowner who allows recreational use of his property at no charge has no liability unless he actively does something that causes harm.
    This is part of what is wrong with the world. Why any trespasser would be given any rights is beyond me. I guess the goal now would be to prove that the rocks being placed are booby traps and not just landscape decoration......
    telling me to stay out of a former bombing range next to a dump while you build huge houses next to it? Screw you.-sandmangts

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    This is part of what is wrong with the world. Why any trespasser would be given any rights is beyond me. I guess the goal now would be to prove that the rocks being placed are booby traps and not just landscape decoration......
    I actually think it's one of the few things CA law gets right.

    I think your attention here is misdirected. It is not about 'giving rights' to trespassers, it's about assigning value to human life. The value of human life, in a first-world society, trumps the value of private 'proppity. In defense of human life, whatever means is necessary can and should be deployed, but for trespassing on property? I find that essentially un-American. In feudal, third-world places, it's often different. But we ain't like that yet, are we?
    Re-Cycled Person who rides a mountain bicycle.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Ray View Post
    I actually think it's one of the few things CA law gets right.

    I think your attention here is misdirected. It is not about 'giving rights' to trespassers, it's about assigning value to human life. The value of human life, in a first-world society, trumps the value of private 'proppity. In defense of human life, whatever means is necessary can and should be deployed, but for trespassing on property? I find that essentially un-American. In feudal, third-world places, it's often different. But we ain't like that yet, are we?
    Agreed!

    There was an article in Bike last year(?) about riding in Norway (which I can't find online...). The way their laws are set up makes access to private land for recreational use much easier and mountain biking has benefited.

    Back to what the OP was asking about - a trail camera is the best solution. If the land is private with illegal trails, why are you riding there anyway?

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Ray View Post
    I actually think it's one of the few things CA law gets right.

    I think your attention here is misdirected. It is not about 'giving rights' to trespassers, it's about assigning value to human life. The value of human life, in a first-world society, trumps the value of private 'proppity. In defense of human life, whatever means is necessary can and should be deployed, but for trespassing on property? I find that essentially un-American. In feudal, third-world places, it's often different. But we ain't like that yet, are we?
    I don't really agree with you on a few points, Let me play devils advocate for a min here.

    Lets suppose for a min you own some property that people decided to build trails on, or perhaps you purchased property where there were existing trails. You are afraid of a lawsuit so you post no trespassing signs on your property.

    Don't forget, you are the one paying ALL the property taxes to Uncle Sam for this plot.

    Now people start to ignore your signs and continue to ride on your property, so you put some rocks on the trails in an effort to deter use, perhaps you do not have evil intentions of hurting people, you just don't want them on it, and you figure ruining the trails is a good one way to deter people.

    Disclaimer, I have no idea if that is the case here, just trying to be fair to both sides. How as the LANDOWNER, do you go about stopping the illegal trespassing, or deter the illegal use of YOUR property?

    Again, i have no idea if this is the case because the OP will not tell us where this is. Perhaps we need a new thread to discuss this.


    But here is my Opinion, and it is just that, an Opinion. If I owned a large amount of acreage, and paid tax on it, and had to maintain it for fire control I would be scared to death of a lawsuit and place no trespassing signs on the property and possibly fence it off, and if someone ignored those signs, got hurt and sued me and won..... I would feel like justice was wrong.

    Of course I am pro mountain biking and would probably have an open trail/shuttle run with BIKES ONLY signs all over the place and only chase off Hikers, Joggers and Horseback riders, but I am trying my best to see this from the eyes of someone who knows nothing about the sport and only see's people trespassing on land.

    In places like Texas they have Private ranches where you can pay a day use fee and ride trails, and if you are caught trespassing you can be legally shot.

    I do not believe booby trapping is a good thing, or even a good deterrent, but I also believe in respecting private property as best as I can, especially if it is posted.

    A few Years ago I had someone jump my back fence and assault a band member because he did not like that I was having live music played in my backyard. He left my yard before I could confront him, and he was smart to do so because I would of had my friends contain him until the Police came and arrested him for Trespassing. I cannot even imagine the outrage I would feel if he somehow hurt himself while jumping my fence and sued me and won.......

    I have a hard time believing that anyone would be okay with someone coming onto their property, getting hurt and then winning a lawsuit against you because of some loopholes in the law that give rights to criminals.
    telling me to stay out of a former bombing range next to a dump while you build huge houses next to it? Screw you.-sandmangts

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    I don't really agree with you on a few points, Let me play devils advocate for a min here.

    Lets suppose for a min you own some property that people decided to build trails on, or perhaps you purchased property where there were existing trails. You are afraid of a lawsuit so you post no trespassing signs on your property.

    Don't forget, you are the one paying ALL the property taxes to Uncle Sam for this plot.

    Now people start to ignore your signs and continue to ride on your property, so you put some rocks on the trails in an effort to deter use, perhaps you do not have evil intentions of hurting people, you just don't want them on it, and you figure ruining the trails is a good one way to deter people.

    Disclaimer, I have no idea if that is the case here, just trying to be fair to both sides. How as the LANDOWNER, do you go about stopping the illegal trespassing, or deter the illegal use of YOUR property?

    Again, i have no idea if this is the case because the OP will not tell us where this is. Perhaps we need a new thread to discuss this.


    But here is my Opinion, and it is just that, an Opinion. If I owned a large amount of acreage, and paid tax on it, and had to maintain it for fire control I would be scared to death of a lawsuit and place no trespassing signs on the property and possibly fence it off, and if someone ignored those signs, got hurt and sued me and won..... I would feel like justice was wrong.

    Of course I am pro mountain biking and would probably have an open trail/shuttle run with BIKES ONLY signs all over the place and only chase off Hikers, Joggers and Horseback riders, but I am trying my best to see this from the eyes of someone who knows nothing about the sport and only see's people trespassing on land.

    In places like Texas they have Private ranches where you can pay a day use fee and ride trails, and if you are caught trespassing you can be legally shot.

    I do not believe booby trapping is a good thing, or even a good deterrent, but I also believe in respecting private property as best as I can, especially if it is posted.

    A few Years ago I had someone jump my back fence and assault a band member because he did not like that I was having live music played in my backyard. He left my yard before I could confront him, and he was smart to do so because I would of had my friends contain him until the Police came and arrested him for Trespassing. I cannot even imagine the outrage I would feel if he somehow hurt himself while jumping my fence and sued me and won.......

    I have a hard time believing that anyone would be okay with someone coming onto their property, getting hurt and then winning a lawsuit against you because of some loopholes in the law that give rights to criminals.
    There's a big difference between booby traps and a rock here and there on a trail. Anybody who willfully causes death or injury to another person for the defense of property is in violation of the law, unless you are in Texas. There, one can kill a burglar. I don't believe private property is more valuable than human life. In Texas, it is.

    Of course, the other thing about Texas is that there is such a tiny percentage of the overall land that is public open space. All that space, and all 'private proppity'.

    I think if you take your due diligence, whatever that actually means, to post no trespassing signs if you don't want people using your open space land, then you have done just about all that's legally and ethically possible. Resorting to violent force, be it by booby trap or another means, steps across the line into felony-land. Except of course in Texas, and maybe Florida too.

    For myself, I have absolutely no intention of moving to either place. I have friends who did so for tax purposes, and I see them spending as little time in their new 'home' state as they possibly can.

    For me, life is too short to go chasing the almighty tax-free carrot, only to live in a place that is basically unliveable on my terms. Fortunately I don't see California going that route. I've been here almost 60 years, and aside from the crowding, and in this county, the oppressive trail access issues, I think California has got it pretty much right, for the most part.

    The thought of having 38 million neighbors does make me a bit claustrophobic at times, though.
    Re-Cycled Person who rides a mountain bicycle.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Ray View Post
    There's a big difference between booby traps and a rock here and there on a trail. Anybody who willfully causes death or injury to another person for the defense of property is in violation of the law, unless you are in Texas. There, one can kill a burglar. I don't believe private property is more valuable than human life. In Texas, it is.

    .
    Just a minor point, it isnt the property that is more important, it is the sanctity of your home. A home invader could just be taking your ipod, or could be there to tie you up and rape your wife and daughters while you watch.

    The texas law basically says you dont have to figure out which it is and that anyone breaking into your home can be shot.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodmojo View Post
    Just a minor point, it isnt the property that is more important, it is the sanctity of your home. A home invader could just be taking your ipod, or could be there to tie you up and rape your wife and daughters while you watch.

    The texas law basically says you dont have to figure out which it is and that anyone breaking into your home can be shot.
    We aren't talking about breaking in to a home, but trespassing on private undeveloped land, there is a MASSIVE difference.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodmojo View Post
    Just a minor point, it isnt the property that is more important, it is the sanctity of your home. A home invader could just be taking your ipod, or could be there to tie you up and rape your wife and daughters while you watch.

    The texas law basically says you dont have to figure out which it is and that anyone breaking into your home can be shot.
    The Texas law, which was heavily promoted by a Texas citizen by the name of Joe Horn( no kidding....I have no idea if he is related to the infamous Tom Horn...prolly not), actually allows you to kill a burglar who is unarmed and is not even invading your own proppity but that of your neighbors'!

    How's THAT for elevating the value of 'private 'proppity' over the value of human life! In a very questionable 'incident' it was the very same Joe Horn, who shot and killed a burglar that had entered his neighbors' home, and was fleeing in front of Horn's yard , with not one, but with two, shotgun blasts to his back. This was within weeks of the new law taking effect.

    Yes, the heroic Mr. Horn actually found it necessary to fire a second 12 gauge blast, to the back of the burglars' head, just to make sure that either his pet law stood up or the 'threat' from the burglar was 'neutralized'. Apparently Mr. Horn is no sharpshooter...

    Many other remarkable circumstances involved in this first test of the new Texas law. For one, the burglar went straight to the one window that was unlocked. Once inside, the burglar went straight to where a bag of gold coins was lying around, and he spent a total of less than 5 minutes inside Mr. Horn's neighbors' home. Also, an undercover police officer happened to be parked down the street, and witnessed the entire event, from break-in to the shooting.

    Yes, I'm very familiar with Texas laws, with Texas thinking, and i know a good number of Texas jokes, to boot. I highly recommend Texas as a residence to any white male California residents who feel threatened by the rising dark-skinned criminal tide. Texas is where you want to be.
    Re-Cycled Person who rides a mountain bicycle.

  25. #50
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    Wow. This got off topic. But, sorry, I too am challenged to think of a burglar in my home as a human. Animals just take from others.
    Last edited by h82crash; 07-10-2014 at 06:42 PM.
    Goat Rider

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