I plan on riding Noble Canyon next weekend and i need to get a forest pass.
Whats the deal with this thing?
I know its not much money but can someone fill me in as to why they have it?
Where does the money go? Where do i get one? Do you really need it?
2008 Turner 5.Spot Raw - Pushed RP23 / Pike 454 U-Turn
2008 Turner Highline GDO - CCDB / Fox 40
San Diego County
Yes you need to buy a pass. The money is partly used to provide services like rest rooms and trash cans and rangers. You can get a pass at most any sporting goods store or at the Descanso General Store. It's still very cheap entertainment even if you feel you're being ripped off so just do it and don't think about the waste and corruption in government
Originally Posted by turnerbikes
Since you are riding Noble, just hit the Pine Valley store. You can buy one for $5.00 or two for $10.00. Funny thing is an annual pass is $30.00, transferable and best yet, if you buy a second annual pass it is only $5.00 more. $35.00 for two annual passes. You just need to decide how often you will be up there. These passes are required for just about any forest parking, not just riding.
Hell, if you want, rent it to your buddies and recoup the $$$ in no time.
2 minutes turkish
Here's the best way to do it:
don't get one. just park and get your ride on. the ranger will come by and give you a 'ticket'...only it isn't a ticket, it's a bill. You will have to mail in the $. you can send in 5$ for just the day, or the 80 or so $ that would get you a pass for the whole year...which they will send you. saves you the time of having to go to the ranger station...which i don't pass on my way to the trail.
While there are those out there that will forever be afraid "the man" is out to get them, keep it legal and play by the rules 99.5% use. Buy the pass. The prices are far less than the $80.00 locus claims.
Here is a link so you can check the pricing.
Besides, if you are riding Noble, they you have to drive right by the Pine Valley store. They are open early, 7:00 AM or earlier, and will always have them available.
Locus- REI, SportChalet and other sporting good outlets sell them too. I think you should be able to find one in your area.
Don't be a fool and risk the fine.
Silence and Thunder...
Talk about a cheap bastid...
Originally Posted by bankerboy
...not to mention perpetuating the 'bad image' so many riders work so hard to eliminate...
...every day sends future to past...
2 minutes turkish
maybe you read it wrong. I pay for my pass just the same as everyone. It's just hand delivered to my car by the ranger.
Go Fast, Take Chances.
Anyone know the trail conditions of Noble and Big Laguna Trail at the moment? Would love to go up there sometime soon, just worried about the trail conditions.
You got that new bike and now want to see how it really handles, huh?
"A full rigid SS or fixie is 99% rider, 1% bike, and 100% more fun" Monogod
Go Fast, Take Chances.
Pretty much, plus it is such a kick ass ride. I really want to do the full "Tour de' Noble" on the new bike.
I'd say 20% of the time I get a ticket (got an annual pass just forget to put it up). But like they say you can pay laters or write down your permit #.
Originally Posted by Captain Snakebite
Contrary to what people say, none of the money goes directly to the park but to the state general fund to be doled out by the state. I think right now its 5 - 12 cents on the dollar depending on the park. Ya its big scam, most the money is eaten up (wasted) by the admistration of the permits and the legislators.
I sometimes ride with a group of cheapazz, they park at the Pine Valley Library and pedal to the trail head. Its free parking
Adventure pass is not a state fee
You might want to check your facts on that. Adventure Pass is a federal program, and the money goes to the Forest Service, not the state general fund. However, I can't say what percentage they use just administering the program. The first year, I heard it was a net loser, but I beleive things have improved since then.
Originally Posted by Ratt
That said, I'm not a big fan of it, as I believe it will be used as an excuse to further cut already meager funds for National Forests. In addition, in those forests where it is enforced, it turns into a requirement to pay a fee just for being on public lands, whether or not you are using any services or amenities.
Haven't been backpacking/rockclimbing for about 10 years so the facts are foggy but I remember it as only a Socal and Oregon program and whatever money was put in it was subtracted from the general budget. I think i confused it with a different scam, the highway gas tax.
Originally Posted by HarryCallahan
They use those funds to pay for food stamps for poor people!
I got 2 words for that, Nice!
If you like being taxed twice, buy the pass. If you want to pay to access your forest, buy the pass. Besides, it's discretionary anyway. I've told the rangers at the station down the street from my house that I don't have to pay the double tax, and are wasting their time writing me a ticket. They don't ticket me. My neighbor told them that they can't double tax her for her religious experinces while using the forest. They don't ticket her either. I have noticed that around here, they are abolishing the double tax in many of the recreation areas, but for a while it was bad. Residents were getting AP tickets on their cars while their car was parked in front of their house. These days, I only see them ticketing the flatlanders playing in the dirty snow on the side of the highway. I must admit that I have a National Park Pass that I paid an extra $15 on, that satisfies National Monuments and AP fees. I refuse to display it though 'cause I don't want some dirt bag breaking into my car for it.
Ripping trails and tipping ales
The law states:
Section 803(d)(1) PROHIBITION ON FEES FOR CERTAIN ACTIVITIES OR SERVICES. --The Secretary shall not charge any standard amenity recreation fee or expanded amenity recreation fee for Federal recreational lands and waters administered by the Bureau of Land Management, the Forest Service, or the Bureau of Reclamation under this Act for any of the following:
(A) Solely for parking, undesignated parking, or picnicking along roads or trailsides.
(B) For general access unless specifically authorized under this section.
(C) For dispersed areas with low or no investment unless specifically authorized under this section.
(D) For persons who are driving through, walking through, boating through, horseback riding through, or hiking through Federal recreational lands and waters without using the facilities and services.
(E) For camping at undeveloped sites that do not provide a minimum number of facilities and services as described in subsection (g)(2)(A).
(F) For use of overlooks or scenic pullouts.
Section 803(f) Standard Amenity Recreation Fee
the Secretary may charge a standard amenity recreation fee for Federal recreational lands and waters under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management, the Bureau of Reclamation, or the Forest Service, but only at the following:
(1) A National Conservation Area.
(2) A National Volcanic Monument.
(3) A destination visitor or interpretive center that provides a broad range of interpretive services, programs, and media.
(4) An area--
(A) that provides significant opportunities for outdoor recreation;
(B) that has substantial Federal investments;
(C) where fees can be efficiently collected; and
(D) that contains all of the following amenities:
(i) Designated developed parking.
(ii) A permanent toilet facility.
(iii) A permanent trash receptacle.
(iv) Interpretive sign, exhibit, or kiosk.
(v) Picnic tables.
(vi) Security services.
Take the Whining Elsewhere!
Whining about double taxation and promoting not paying the Adventure Pass fees is like posting illegal trails or your ability to build stunts on private property - neither does the mountain biking community at large any good.
I suspect the vast majority of those who put in the time, money, and effort to build and maintain the Noble Canyon Trail we all enjoy at no other cost, pay those fees.
Ultimately, the mountain biking community's willingness to pay is what will get more trails opened. The $3 I spent two weeks ago to ride the Laguna Coast Wilderness Park was the best $3 I spent in a long time!
The Adventure Pass also covers parking at the San Juan Trail and Santa Ana River Trail. I'm sure it makes the rangers day better when all the cars and trucks with bike racks have that sticker displayed.
Now it's time to get off the soapbox and figure out this weekend's ride!
It's your dollar. If you decide to vote for the fee by purchasing a pass, that's your business.
Originally Posted by Devine Intervention
Ripping trails and tipping ales
Laguna Forest Pass
Not to get off the Federal Forest Pass subject, El Moro Canyon in Laguna is a state park that has a parking lot on PCH with no "gated" entrance and a sign that says pay $10 parking fee in the Rangers office. Everyone one displays their CA state park pass in their windshield and the newb's pay $10 for a ticket that they stick inside their windows. The sad thing is that the $10. fee is not mandatory and that its a "donation". Ive been riding there for about six years and ive never paid and have never recieved a ticket.
The money gathered is probably to raise funds for trail maintenance and expensive fancy signs that say "Do not enter this part of the wildlands its being preserved"!
I got 2 words for that, Nice!
I refuse to support this type behavior by public servants. This is our land, the american people, we do not, nor should not ever have to pay extra money for it. Its just one more way to capitalize on our ignorance and willingness to trade our freedom and money for false claims and appropriations.
The money aquired from the "adventure pass" has done virtually nothing to 'improve' the forest - rather it is used to put up more gates that remain locked and to close off more public land (that means YOUR land) to you!
Since the "adventure pass" scheme started, I have seen roads, trails, and lands that were always open and free be shut down, fenced off, and gated. And more tolls being implemented in once 'free' camping and recreation areas.
Furthermore, the attitude and presentation of the forest 'service' individuals is appaulling and certainly not worth rewarding. They act above and outside the laws and constitution of our land. Who remembers the times when they used extortion tactics, diverting all traffic up sunrise highway, forcing you to buy an adventure pass after a brief interrogation of your business there??? Little did people know, you don't HAVE to buy this pass. Next time you are acosted by a forest 'service' personal ask them what level of offense is the "violation". If they do not know, help them out by asking:
"is it an infraction?", they'll say "no".
"is it a misdeamenor?", they'll say "no".
"is it a felony?", they'll say "no".
Thats because it is nothing - it is another experimental tariff that if enough people begin to accept as law will eventually become a law.
Don't be duped into giving away what is yours and then be charged/double-taxed for it.
Beautiful places around the US have remained so without the enforcment of and "adventure pass". Utah for example has never had an "adventure pass", yet they have the cleanest bathrooms, the most beautiful lands, and some of the friendliest people I've seen - all without the money from an "adventure pass".
The forest service in these areas can truley be called "forest service" as they do provide service to the forest and the people!
"Thats because it is nothing - it is another experimental tariff that if enough people begin to accept as law will eventually become a law. "
How long has your head been in the sand? This is a law.
Whether you choose to follow it is another issue all together.
If you have ever taken an economics class, you would understand usury fees. These fees are intended to help reduce the impact of usage by imposing a fee structure. Ideally the fee is such that the item used, in this case the forest and parks, is not overrun by those using it. Have you every tried to hit the beach on the 4th of July? Could/would you want to see the trails like that?
Now granted that is not the primary goal of the fee. The primary goal is to collect revenue. The crowd reduction is second or tercerary. Realistically, the fee needs to be greater than it currently is to achieve a reduction in the recreational traffic.
If you don't buy the pass, as it has been pointed out in previous posts, the fee/penalty is simply having to purchase the pass. HOWEVER, if you are cited on a secondary offence, the fee becomes a $100.00 penalty. This penalty holds the same weight as a parking ticket. Don't pay it and see how lenient the courts will be.
Some feel this is not just. Whoopie! Let me break out my violin. You are probably the same people who believe the IRS is an illegal entity because in reality only the post office has the authority to raise taxes. Though many have argued that case in a court, NOT ONE ever won their case. The fact of the matter is the fee is here and it will be collected, whether you want it or not.
Luck may be on your side and you have not been cited, yet. As this economy tightens up, all revenue possibilities will be used and your luck will probably run out.
Best of luck!
Here's where your money is going in San Diego
"Due to insufficient recreation budgets, the Forest Service in southern California relies on the Adventure Pass program for baseline management of areas covered by the program, including Laguna Recreation Area and Corral Canyon OHV area. It helps pay for what few people the FS has in the field, it pays for vehicles, it pays for trash bags, trash cans, signs, repairs, paint, trash clean-up, graffiti removal, porta-johns, toilet cleaning, toilet pumping, trash disposal costs, nails, glue, paint, interpretive signs, law enforcement, hazard tree removal, water systems, new restrooms, new trailheads, picnic tables, fire rings, faucets, etc.
Not to mention clearing all the downed trees off the trail so we can ride!
Annual adventure pass photo accomplishment reports for all four southern CA forests from 2002-2006 are available online at:
The 2007 report is not available yet, but here are some recent AP funded items on the Descanso District of CNF:
Design and installation of a mountain bike cattle guard, in addition to a horse gate on the Big Laguna Trail System at Sunrise Hwy, near Meadow Kiosk. (Installed 3/1/08)
The FS employed 1 student intern from SDSU up to 40 hrs per week with AP dollars for O&M at Laguna Recreation Area and Corral Canyon OHV area, and have recently hired another intern from Grossmont College.
The Forest Service has obligated $20K of adventure pass dollars this year for development of the new Agua Dulce Trailhead in Laguna Rec Area for purchase and installation of a new "sweet smelling" CXT vault toilet, the additional $20K cost will be matched by appropriated FS dollars. The new vault toilet should be installed this spring. Other matching funds for development of the site have been offered by Laguna Mtn Volunteer Association and Backcountry Horsemen of SD. This trailhead accesses the Big Laguna Trail system, including over 10 miles of user created multi-use trails that have been recently analyzed and adopted by the Forest Service.
During Snow Play days on Laguna the FS uses AP funds to staff an information station along Sunrise Hwy near I-8, rents porta-potties deployed at various locations, plows parking areas, and clean-up the trash that gets left in the aftermath.
Have you ever seen the incredible amount of trash left behind, it's terrible
The AP funds also allow us to have additional staff on duty for the weekends in Laguna Recreation Area and Corral Canyon to make public contacts for area information and enforcement of regulations.
AP funds received by the local FS unit are used in the areas where they are collected to help continue to provide the recreation opportunities in those areas while protecting National Forest System resources."
Last edited by Hecklermark; 05-13-2008 at 09:13 PM.
Shuttle Noble? Hell No!
Silence and Thunder...
I really don't understand all the complaining....hell, rangers need beer money too....
...every day sends future to past...
Crop Dusting Magistrate
I helped buy a toilet and gate.
Heck I gotta get back up there and drop a load...gotta get my moneys worth.
Just monkeying around
"The new vault toilet should be installed this spring."
Awesome, but I bet folks will still crap their pants on Widowmaker.