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  1. #1
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    Cleanup on Aisle 4

    Preaching to the Choir, I know........

    Somewhat disheartening to see the damage inflicted by some careless, selfish, inconsiderate, and ignorant boneheads from last weekend.

    It rained steadily on sunday and it looks like a whole cavalry of riders laid waste to the place.

    So, it's only fireroad you say.

    Not exactly. As I was climbing, I could not help it, but cringe at what the trail might look like once I finally got on it. And, sure enough....the trail proper, also got worked. The fireroad? Big deal...but, I could tell by the amount of damage where these A-holes were headed.

    These tracks have already hardened up and if we don't get any more rain this winter...it'll probably look this way for a good long while.

    Here's the thing.....there's a handful of us that put in quite a bit of shovel time...and it's just a huge downer to see what a few chuckle heads with a disproportionate sense of entitlement, can do in just one day.


    Unlikely that anyone reading this thread would pull this crap. But, if you were riding in east county, last sunday, in the rain...YOU SUCK!

    In the immortal words of Pete Townshend..."Why should I care...Why should I care?"
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    Last edited by Aquaholic; 02-28-2008 at 08:46 AM.
    What the EFF is "All MOUNTAIN"???

  2. #2
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    Eh, most likely someone will come through with a bulldozer and cover up all the damage.

  3. #3
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    honestly, I don't get it. This is nothing worth writing about, if the pics are typical of the damage. Who cares, that's sand.

    I never apologize. I'm sorry, but that's just the way I am.

  4. #4
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    yeah, I saw trucks parked under the bridge Sunday as I went by, and it rained out here all day long. All I could think was "...geezzzz.."...


    * it still surprises me how many still don't get it. I'm just disappointed that so many just don't care...
    That's been the problem at this spot for many, many years...
    ...every day sends future to past...

  5. #5
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    saw the same thing here in Tucson last weekend...didn't have a camera...

    it rains about 6 days out of the year here...and the ground is CLAY...and it takes about 4 minutes for the trails to dry when the sun comes out...

    and yet i was riding through HUGE RUTS!!!

    WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE????

    whew...ok...end of rant...
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by dusthuffer
    honestly, I don't get it. This is nothing worth writing about, if the pics are typical of the damage. Who cares, that's sand.
    what's not to get? this is like MTB 101. maybe you like railing thorugh choppy ruts?

    1,200 posts and you don't get it? why don't you buy a clue and re-learn the basics of mountain biking and taking care of a trail.


    #3 on the IMBA Responsible Riding Tips -
    Say No To Mud - Riding a muddy trail can cause unnecessary trail widening and erosion that may lead to long-lasting damage.
    lets not make it a religion, it is recreation

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dusthuffer
    Who cares, that's sand.
    except where it's not, which is most everywhere.

    the only place in southern California that has truly sandy trails is the area between the Pacific Ocean and The Pacific coast Highway. Everywhere else has a whole lot of clay............

    YR

  8. #8
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    I remember seeing this post on STR: http://www.socaltrailriders.org/foru...san-diego.html

    You have to read through the thread a little to get to the part where a group starts to organize a ride on ATT. I was a little surprised to see folks organizing a ride on ATT in the rain on a public forum, but obviously not everyone shares the same values concerning riding trails in the rain/mud. It was 100% clear it was going to rain Sunday as it had already started Saturday night when the posts were still happening.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristatos
    I remember seeing this post on STR: http://www.socaltrailriders.org/foru...san-diego.html

    You have to read through the thread a little to get to the part where a group starts to organize a ride on ATT. I was a little surprised to see folks organizing a ride on ATT in the rain on a public forum, but obviously not everyone shares the same values concerning riding trails in the rain/mud. It was 100% clear it was going to rain Sunday as it had already started Saturday night when the posts were still happening.

    K:

    Thank you for finding that link.

    I know those guys and I'll just say this(to them). You guys are experienced and well respected riders in the local MTB community. That said, you guys know better.

    Just a suggestion...the next time it's raining as much as it did last sunday, stay on your own local trails(south Bay) and EFF them up.

    Someone who frequents STR, would you please link this thread?

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    "I had a killer ride out to the ATT. Don Juan is having a hard time with post ride cramping. seems his new G37 6 speed might be taxing his leg".
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    Last edited by Aquaholic; 02-28-2008 at 09:10 AM.
    What the EFF is "All MOUNTAIN"???

  10. #10
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    Well, at least the equestrians stayed away!
    "Hesitation is the Mother of Failure!"

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  11. #11
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    i was *going* to go with that group, but i never did make it out last weekend. I'm guilty of riding ATT in the rain and post rain in the past. in fact, i've seen aqua out there shovel in hand building stuff during those conditions and stopped to chat. you didn't seem upset by me riding there so i was surprised to see this thread. i've always regarded anderson as one of those places people agree can be ridden in the rain much of that opinion has came from reading countless threads about places you can ride in the rain in the sd area.

    to be honest, those pics don't really look to bad. i can understand the issue of a trail widening because of people riding around a puddle, but i always am a bit baffled by tread imprints left in dirt being a big problem. but, judging from what aqua said in his post and as well as he knows that place, i guess i have to change my outlook on riding there when it's wet.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by danlorek
    i was *going* to go with that group, but i never did make it out last weekend. I'm guilty of riding ATT in the rain and post rain in the past. in fact, i've seen aqua out there shovel in hand building stuff during those conditions and stopped to chat. you didn't seem upset by me riding there so i was surprised to see this thread. i've always regarded anderson as one of those places people agree can be ridden in the rain much of that opinion has came from reading countless threads about places you can ride in the rain in the sd area.

    to be honest, those pics don't really look to bad. i can understand the issue of a trail widening because of people riding around a puddle, but i always am a bit baffled by tread imprints left in dirt being a big problem. but, judging from what aqua said in his post and as well as he knows that place, i guess i have to change my outlook on riding there when it's wet.

    Dan:

    What's up? Hey man, thanks for chiming in.

    I think it comes down to common sense ( of which is not so common any longer). Locally, most people know which trails hold up well after a rain. When it's raining that much and for that duration, as it did last sunday, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know better and to stay off.

    A lot of ATT is comprised of decomposed granite and holds up exceedingly well (even while raining). But, when you start approaching the 4 corners area the soil composition turns to clay based. If a substantial amount of rain has fallen, that area quickly turns into a greasy, slimy mess. I would recommend going no further than "Rest Rock" and then 180' ing it if conditions are dicey.

    If you'll recall, I did not have my bike with me that rainy day. Often times if it's raining, I will hike in with my shovel and do work/repairs.

    Last sunday, I also wanted to ride. I woke up and saw how much rain was coming down and the forecast called for continued rain throughout the day. So, instead I rode the couch.

    Those pictures may not convey the scope of what I saw...But, you know how pics often don't translate well. Of all the years I've ridden there, I haven't seen this much of a mess, made post rain.

    It was a weak act to be riding in those conditions.
    Last edited by Aquaholic; 02-28-2008 at 01:00 PM.
    What the EFF is "All MOUNTAIN"???

  13. #13
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    Yea, I got ya Aqua. DL, I'm in agreement with Aqua on this one too. You can ride up to "pistachio point" (ya like that?) real soon after a rain but to try and rail the top right after or during a rain is not a considerate or smart move.

    Let's hope this is not the end of the rain for the year so at least the ruts can be erased and start anew.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tappoix
    what's not to get? this is like MTB 101. maybe you like railing thorugh choppy ruts?

    1,200 posts and you don't get it? why don't you buy a clue and re-learn the basics of mountain biking and taking care of a trail..
    Seriously, can't you read? The pics showed a huge, graded wide fireroad and a deep sandy corner. If you want to see trail destruction come up to ventura county. They really mess things up here.

    I never apologize. I'm sorry, but that's just the way I am.

  15. #15
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    That stinks. I hate those crusty ruts. I haven't ridden dirt for about the last 4-5 weekends. I finally rode my local little Black Mtn. this morning, which is virtually all rock. It's amazing how squishy the mountain bike feels after riding nothing but a road bike for weeks... Love it!

  16. #16
    ridin' Mary
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    Aqua,

    Were the pictures you posted actually fire roads or are these groomed trails that have grown? They look like fire roads to me. So that puts me in the "don't care" category. Gigantic big-arse bulldozers grade these every year or two. A few bike tire marks are not going to make any difference.

    The second picture you post shows deep drainage ruts indicating this has not been graded in a while, and there are a bunch of little bike induced ruts on the surface of the fire road around these deep ruts. If I'm riding along that trail, my eyes are gonna be on that big problem on the left and not the little problems on the right.

    I'm all for saving single track since that is truly rare in Socal. But count me out of any new "save the fire roads" campaign. Fire roads are general access for everyone at all times.

    This is a general-usage world, and there are way too many elitists trying to make everything match to their particular viewpoint. Equestrians want the entire world for horses. MTB purists want the entire world for single-track rides. Downies want the entire world to be a jump range with tricks at every corner. Tree-huggers want foot traffic only everywhere. There can and should be places for all of these activities. But the fire roads are general public and should not be subject of your specific preservation desires.

    I'm like you and like to take a light tread on the world (try to do no harm). But let's let fire roads be fire roads.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dusthuffer
    Seriously, can't you read? The pics showed a huge, graded wide fireroad and a deep sandy corner.
    Again.. that ain't sand. They're cement hard deep wheel ruts. I don't live down there but I can feel for those that have to ride that now.
    Buy a bell, help the trails....

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  18. #18
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    You should see the massive damage to the mesa area at Sycamore Canyon (SD)...what was 8 to 10 inches wide is now 10 - 15 feet wide.

    All because some riders don't want to muddy their "sweet" rides.
    It wasn't me

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeti_Rider
    the only place in southern California that has truly sandy trails is the area between the Pacific Ocean and The Pacific coast Highway. Everywhere else has a whole lot of clay............YR
    The San Gabes?

  20. #20
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    This topic has been touched on time and time again over the years. But it never fails there is always a group of morons that hit the trails during and right after a rain storm. Some of you look at Aqua as he is stating something not worth talking about. But in actualality this is IMO one of the most important topics to discuss here. These morans that have this "who cares" attitude are the ones who are going to be responsible for getting all our beloved trails shut down to MTBRS. Someone stated that at least the equestrians stayed away. No shi@ this is one of the reasons the equestrians and hikers hate us MTBRS. Because there is a select group of idiots in our sport that have that "who cares"attitude. And this attitude seems to be getting more and more frequent as the years go by." Watch out it's my trail move aside". We all need to get a clue and turn this trend around.
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Dude, I'm in Illinois. The only place anyone would come from that would say this area is hilly is Kansas.

  21. #21
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    Thats nothing just wait till California breaks off from mainland US and becomes its own island. All the trails are going to be wrecked then.
    I got 2 words for that, Nice!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhNooo
    Aqua,
    Were the pictures you posted actually fire roads or are these groomed trails that have grown?

    I'm all for saving single track since that is truly rare in Socal. But count me out of any new "save the fire roads" campaign. Fire roads are general access for everyone at all times.

    Read Aqua's words closely everybody:
    "And, sure enough....the trail proper, also got worked. The fireroad? Big deal..."

    I'll alert you to context here. Aqua also doesn't care too much about fireroad, "Big deal", as in "I don't really care", but he was worried the "trail proper" was also worked which it turns out, his fears were justified. I'm sure he was too torqued as he went down to take more pics of the damage of "trail proper."

    Look, I think Aqua complains too much about a lot of things that I don't really care about, like cracks in his frames, it's not my frame so why should I care? , but in this case I guess I'll have to defend the guy.

  23. #23
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    Hi Dirtjunkie,

    I agree with every word you wrote, because you used the word "Trails". I have no dispute in that context.

    But those pictures do not look like trails to me. If Aqua chimes in and states that these were formerly trails that have become bloated due to abuse, then again, I again agree. But if this is a county fire road that has recieved a few ruts, then I have to disagree with your comments in this context. Let fire roads be fire roads. Everyone in the pool!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhNooo
    Hi Dirtjunkie,

    I agree with every word you wrote, because you used the word "Trails". I have no dispute in that context.

    But those pictures do not look like trails to me. If Aqua chimes in and states that these were formerly trails that have become bloated due to abuse, then again, I again agree. But if this is a county fire road that has recieved a few ruts, then I have to disagree with your comments in this context. Let fire roads be fire roads. Everyone in the pool!
    You have to ride this fire road to get to the ST trails. So in essence you are messing up both while still wet. What do you think the other trail users think when they see bicycle tire markes molded into the trail and or fire road. They get pissed and turn against our sport. Even riding a fire road while wet is irresponsible and gives MTBRS a bad name.
    Quote Originally Posted by NDD View Post
    Dude, I'm in Illinois. The only place anyone would come from that would say this area is hilly is Kansas.

  25. #25
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    I think the subtext on some of these discussions that have been popping up lately in the SoCal forum this winter is that we're spoiled by great weather most of the year and that this winter has been wetter than the last couple of years and storms have been hitting on the weekends. Of course we're all itching to get out and ride and the temptation is great to hit up the trail soon after a storm or try to get in some riding and hope the forecast proves wrong.

    People need to take a step back and ask "Does my personal recreation/enjoyment of these trails take precedence over the potential damage to: the trail itself, the image of mountain bikers in general, the relationships MTBers have to build and work to maintain with land managers?"

    Some people feel entitled to ride whenever they want. Discussions like this help educate them that there are repercussions beyond cleaning mud off your bike at the end of a ride.

    PS. There are tons of great trail work opportunities for anyone feeling guilty or who enjoys getting out there and giving a little something back to the community. The weather's set up great conditions and SDMBA has a bunch of events lined up in the next few weeks. Hopefully we can all get out there and do some work.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mouse jockey
    Read Aqua's words closely everybody:
    "And, sure enough....the trail proper, also got worked. The fireroad? Big deal..."

    I'll alert you to context here. Aqua also doesn't care too much about fireroad, "Big deal", as in "I don't really care", but he was worried the "trail proper" was also worked which it turns out, his fears were justified. I'm sure he was too torqued as he went down to take more pics of the damage of "trail proper."
    Since I'm using a classic SNL avatar, I guess I should also provide a classic SNL reply..... "Oh... that's perfectly all right then... NEVERMIND!" <Rosanne Rosannadanna>

    Quote Originally Posted by mouse jockey
    Look, I think Aqua complains too much about a lot of things that I don't really care about, like cracks in his frames, it's not my frame so why should I care? , but in this case I guess I'll have to defend the guy.
    I've met Aqua on a few rides, and I have no beef with him. I sure wish I could ride like him! I guess I still have beefs with the few on this forum that think every fire road needs government protection as soon as it sprinkles. I just didn't get the context right from that first message.

  27. #27
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    Those trails are public land. People can ride them whenever they want. They pay taxes too. It may be a bummer for you but that is a matter of opinion. Land of the free. That being said, feel FREE to keep ranting, they will feel FREE to keep riding, rain or shine.

  28. #28
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    due to responses such as this

    Quote Originally Posted by desert kid
    Those trails are public land. People can ride them whenever they want. They pay taxes too. It may be a bummer for you but that is a matter of opinion. Land of the free. That being said, feel FREE to keep ranting, they will feel FREE to keep riding, rain or shine.
    Due to these type of responses, the only thing I can say is that when you see a post organizing a ride and it says something like "we will be in the white van"

    Well ****, nothing says "yes, we love you" like a boulder through the windshield.

    I kid, I kid (cough)

  29. #29
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    The rain/tire damage is about the most technical feature in those pictures. Please don't tell me that it's now a challenge to ride it or something. Trails change all the time, with or without people riding them.
    805

  30. #30
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    fyi- I'm pretty sure most these particular 'fire roads' haven't seen a blade in many, many years. That 'fireroad' was officially closed when an engine went over the side and killed a few firefighters way back in..??? [iirc]
    And as far as this trail being open to the public, that's a thin line...

    I used to enjoy parking near the (old) trailhead years ago and hiking down there with my kids when they were little. Then a bunch of the "who cares?" crowd starting parking wherever they wanted - blocking the road, resident's driveways, etc. and leaving trash all over...well why not...who cares?

    I know the 'who cares' will continue to just laugh at this, so I'm just writing for the rest of us. But that's ok...I believe in karma....
    ...every day sends future to past...

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by xjbebop

    I know the 'who cares' will continue to just laugh at this, so I'm just writing for the rest of us. But that's ok...I believe in karma....
    Unfortunately it's the 'who cares' who give the negative stereotype validation and ultimately get more trails closed. The people who can't see beyond their own attitude, like this gem.

    Those trails are public land. People can ride them whenever they want. They pay taxes too. It may be a bummer for you but that is a matter of opinion. Land of the free. That being said, feel FREE to keep ranting, they will feel FREE to keep riding, rain or shine.
    nothing witty here...

  32. #32
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    I know the 'who cares' will continue to just laugh at this, so I'm just writing for the rest of us. But that's ok...I believe in karma....
    Sometimes, I like to expediate the karma process!
    The suspension of your bike sucks if it's different than mine. Really. It sucks. Big time.

  33. #33
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    What about the Cuyamacas?

    The damage at Sycamore is a shame. I won't ride there for a couple of weeks until that has dried out.

    A friend of mine was proposing we head up to the Cuyamacas (Grand Loop) this weekend. I suspect we need to give the trails more time, especially the "new" single track and Middle Peak portions. Based on the recent level of rain, how long do you recommend we should wait before heading up?

  34. #34
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    ahhhhhhhhhhh jeeeeezzz

    Quote Originally Posted by DHidiot
    The rain/tire damage is about the most technical feature in those pictures. Please don't tell me that it's now a challenge to ride it or something. Trails change all the time, with or without people riding them.
    Save it nancy. You may think you are the most "technically advanced" rider out there,honeslty though well, I thnk that I have said enough.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by desert kid
    Those trails are public land. People can ride them whenever they want. They pay taxes too. It may be a bummer for you but that is a matter of opinion. Land of the free. That being said, feel FREE to keep ranting, they will feel FREE to keep riding, rain or shine.
    Not quite, desert infant. The top half is on marked reservation land. While we have not been hassled about the trespassing at the top of ATT, it is trespassing.

    This land is not public nor do our taxes go there. That is the reason casinos exist in California. Surely they taught you about these things in school. Or you can learn them when you get to the 8th grade......

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by desert kid
    Those trails are public land. People can ride them whenever they want. They pay taxes too. It may be a bummer for you but that is a matter of opinion. Land of the free. That being said, feel FREE to keep ranting, they will feel FREE to keep riding, rain or shine.
    I have never been to this trail but I am assuming that it is a public trail and people are, for the most part, free to ride whenever they like. Correct me if I am wrong. Yes, people can go ride there when it's sunny, when it's cloudy, after it has rained and even while it's raining. I'm sure that there is nothing that I can legally do about it.

    BUT!! Have you ever heard of "tragedy of the commons"? Your response to this entire scenario is exactly what could eventually be the demise of this trail. Basically the trail is a 'somewhat' limited common resource that everyone is free to use as much as they want and never have to pay anything to ride. I say 'somewhat' because it's not like if everyone rides the trail while it's muddy the trail will explode, just a much lesser version of itself. If everyone rides the trail when it is vulnerable it will be ruined. But nobody is really willing to do anything about it because it is a common resource and nobody who rides the trail will personally lose anything by ruining the trail. If enough people have the same mindset that you do then the trail will probably be half of what it once was and at nobody's personal cost. But if you look at it from a communal sense, everbody loses because they all have to ride a deteriorated trail because of just a few selfish people.

    The "tragedy of the commons" can be applied to many many more natural resources and has always been a problem. I know there's nothing we can really do to prevent people from riding/ruining the trails at inopportune times. I just hope that people will understand that they could be ruining trails for themselves and everyone else.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocd
    Save it nancy. You may think you are the most "technically advanced" rider out there,honeslty though well, I thnk that I have said enough.
    Never said anything about that, just that this isn't a road biking forum.
    805

  38. #38
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    I went up there on a dry period between storms

    Quote Originally Posted by Devine Intervention
    The damage at Sycamore is a shame. I won't ride there for a couple of weeks until that has dried out.

    A friend of mine was proposing we head up to the Cuyamacas (Grand Loop) this weekend. I suspect we need to give the trails more time, especially the "new" single track and Middle Peak portions. Based on the recent level of rain, how long do you recommend we should wait before heading up?
    There was still a lot of water coming down the hills. There were a few muddy places. The big thing were the fallen trees. The abundance of rain this year has expediated the big heavy dead trees falling over. When they go down, they take 5-6 others with them. There is lots of hiking up through the brush to get around piles of trees. This is on the west side of the road. The east end was fine. Unless they have cut the piles of trees away, I wouldn't bother with Middle Peak or usually fun DH run. It makes for a shorter ride doing the single track and heading back down either Soapstone or the other fire road east of Soapstone.
    Don

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy
    Not quite, desert infant. The top half is on marked reservation land. While we have not been hassled about the trespassing at the top of ATT, it is trespassing.

    This land is not public nor do our taxes go there. That is the reason casinos exist in California. Surely they taught you about these things in school. Or you can learn them when you get to the 8th grade......
    The bottom access is also trespassing. You've got members of the local trail advocacy group and MTB group tesspassing and posting pics of it. They also lecture others on trail damage and riding closed trails and ride arounds. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for waiting a week or more after a heavy rain. This trail used to be one of my favorite close in rides(near my house). Thanks to a few, it is now closed. The last time I rode it, after the Bofus nightmare, it had deteriorated a lot. I don't ride it anymore.
    Don

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquaholic
    K:

    Thank you for finding that link.

    I know those guys and I'll just say this(to them). You guys are experienced and well respected riders in the local MTB community. That said, you guys know better.

    Just a suggestion...the next time it's raining as much as it did last sunday, stay on your own local trails(south Bay) and EFF them up.

    Someone who frequents STR, would you please link this thread?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "I had a killer ride out to the ATT. Don Juan is having a hard time with post ride cramping. seems his new G37 6 speed might be taxing his leg".
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  41. #41
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    History lesson please Don

    Can Don or anyone else please give me a brief history lesson of The Wall of Bofus. I can tell that the current bottom "access" is a graded lot for a future home that I seem to recall is for sale and then there will be no access at all. It looks to me that the bottom "access" has changed over the years because one home after another was added.

    I don't actually ride there much because I don't shuttle anymore and I don't like to ride the asphalt either.

    Chris in Sweetwater
    Quote Originally Posted by turnerbikes View Post
    Of course the easiest way to fix this is to go for a hike.
    DT

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudd
    Well, at least the equestrians stayed away!
    That would be an exception. Equestrians are usually riding just after a rain. Maybe they like the post-rain fresh air or they think the softer ground is easier on the horses but the net effect is after a rain you can count on even more trail damage.

  43. #43
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    honestly...

    the questionably legal trail you guys are talking about (not the fire road, who gives an eff about a giant scar on the planet) is DH training for local racers. if you build features that attract the racer and adrenaline junky types, then expect them to train when they get a chance to ride something different. (mud)

    i certainly didn't contribute to the damage, i was racing in the mud on legal trails at a sanctioned event. i guess my best feedback would be:

    1. if there were no people riding the questionably legal trails at all, there would be no question as to whether or not there was damage

    2. all the DH race poseurs should come out to the real races and test themselves against the clock on legal trails and sanctioned events.

    i for one had a blast, covered in mud, going through tear-offs, slipping and sliding on the DH course in Fontana that day. totally new experience. racing in the mud ROCKS! unfortunately we don't get the opportunity to do that very often.

    i don't condone damaging trails in the wet, but people are going to do it. either don't build the trails that attract riders, or live with it. just a fact of life. i appreciated the time that Aqua showed me this trail, it was tons of fun. i have not been back since and didn't share info on where the trail was.

    by the way, i posted approximately the same thing on naSTy-aRgh.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by rckhopper87
    I have never been to this trail but I am assuming that it is a public trail and people are, for the most part, free to ride whenever they like. Correct me if I am wrong. Yes, people can go ride there when it's sunny, when it's cloudy, after it has rained and even while it's raining. I'm sure that there is nothing that I can legally do about it.

    BUT!! Have you ever heard of "tragedy of the commons"? Your response to this entire scenario is exactly what could eventually be the demise of this trail. Basically the trail is a 'somewhat' limited common resource that everyone is free to use as much as they want and never have to pay anything to ride. I say 'somewhat' because it's not like if everyone rides the trail while it's muddy the trail will explode, just a much lesser version of itself. If everyone rides the trail when it is vulnerable it will be ruined. But nobody is really willing to do anything about it because it is a common resource and nobody who rides the trail will personally lose anything by ruining the trail. If enough people have the same mindset that you do then the trail will probably be half of what it once was and at nobody's personal cost. But if you look at it from a communal sense, everbody loses because they all have to ride a deteriorated trail because of just a few selfish people.

    The "tragedy of the commons" can be applied to many many more natural resources and has always been a problem. I know there's nothing we can really do to prevent people from riding/ruining the trails at inopportune times. I just hope that people will understand that they could be ruining trails for themselves and everyone else.

    Excellent point good sir!!

    There are a lot of people in southern California that mountain bike. Many of which have drastically different opinions on subjects such as these. In reality all points can be argued as right or wrong. I would just like to make a point of caution. If you want to stop someone else from doing what they want with the land the be very prepared to be stopped from what you want to do with the land. Public, private, taxed or not...I am reasonably certain that none of you on this forum own this land, we all have the same rules and limitations regarding its use. We all have to share the sand box (so to speak) sometimes that means filling in the holes your classmates dug and moving on.

    Just be careful of deeming someone else's opinion "wrong" the coin can be easily flipped. I think this is really just an argument of the morality of proper dirt displacement. Mountain bikes are meant to adapt to the terrain, thats why we buy bikes with shocks and gears (...luckyyyy!). If you want to ride off road on groomed trails, there is such an aspect of cycling and it is BMX, maountin cross, road, track....We are trail riders and we can adapt to tough terrain.

    I would like to live in a world where we all get along and have the same goals. Well we don't. If you want to stop them from riding in the rain there are ways it can be done. But the likely side effect is you are going to loose some of you access to the land too.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy
    Not quite, desert infant. The top half is on marked reservation land. While we have not been hassled about the trespassing at the top of ATT, it is trespassing.

    This land is not public nor do our taxes go there. That is the reason casinos exist in California. Surely they taught you about these things in school. Or you can learn them when you get to the 8th grade......

    Sorry I missed my California gaming law and native American sovereignty law classes in 8th grade. What I do understand is that unless you own the land (sounds like you don't) you can't tell anyone else what they can or can't do on it. Not without a whole lot of paperwork, money, and hopefully a majority vote.

    Be careful about implying responsibility for maintaining and or riding possibly "illegal trails". That seems, to me, to be a dicey move.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechmann_mtb

    1. if there were no people riding the questionably legal trails at all, there would be no question as to whether or not there was damage

    2. all the DH race poseurs should come out to the real races and test themselves against the clock on legal trails and sanctioned events.
    1. Excellent logic, if there were no humans at all we wouldn't have to worry about people riding trails too soon after rain either.

    2. Spend $50 to race crappy courses so I can be called a 'real' racer, I did that for plenty long and I don't see any reason to do it now, I'll wait until there's a series with decent courses before spending my hard earned money to be a real racer. This will be happening soon enough.

    How about this, have enough forethought to realized that riding a trail immediately after a rain storm is not a good idea, it helps erode the trail faster than it would normally and it gives/enforces the impression that bikers don't care about sustaining/improving their environment. Yes, you can ride a trail right after a rain if that's what you want to do, you can also split lanes on your motorcycle during a rain storm but it's probably not the best idea. We're not talking about taking away civil liberties here, we're talking about giving the sport a better image so that maybe we can work with land managers to open more trails or expand existing trail networks.

    One more corny comment and then I'm out. If you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem.
    nothing witty here...

  47. #47
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    This thread brings up the question (at least in my mind): what is the latest with ATT access? I was hassled on the upper portion a few years ago by an overzealous female ranger. Last year I went to ATT to ride the lower half and had trouble finding the latest entrance b/c of the wall and all that crap (I know I should have just ridden farther up the road).

    Where is the entrance now, and is there a hassle for riding the upper half anymore? I note the Indians just got a quadruple expansion of their slot machine limits due to the last propositions. Anything going on with this little corner of the reservation?

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2w4s
    2. Spend $50 to race crappy courses so I can be called a 'real' racer, I did that for plenty long and I don't see any reason to do it now, I'll wait until there's a series with decent courses before spending my hard earned money to be a real racer. This will be happening soon enough.
    don't really want to argue with you, because i think we are on the same side here. i choose to participate in the only local series because without it DH racing could die altogether in socal. then all that would be left would be XC and 12/24 hr stuff. you can be a real racer and never ever race at Fontana. just like real racers that ride Tunnel but never race Fontana. i was just saying that racers are attracted to these types of trails, and that the only legitimate reason i could come up with to ride these trails in the soup would be to train for real racing (UCI and such, there is at least one racer that lives in east county SD and will be on the UCI circuit this year). i will be stoked when there are more DH racing options in socal!!!!!

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechmann_mtb
    and that the only legitimate reason i could come up with to ride these trails in the soup would be to train for real racing.


    How about this one?
    Racers and their wanna-be counterparts have nothing to do with it. It was just inappropriate and a poor judgement call to be riding that area that day, with that amount of precipitation falling. It shouldn't be that hard to wrap your head around that.


    Speaking of which....I read the public apology that was posted on another forum. Hoser, you sir, are a standup guy and a class act!

    Listen, I don't lay claim to "owning" this trail or any other. No one owes me an apology or even a pat on the back. It's just a matter of respect for that privilege to play there. When I ride someones else's "home turf"... I always make a mental note to really appreciate the time and effort that those unsung heros that built or maintain that particular trail have undertaken.

    If you were on a trail, pick any trail....and you rode something poorly and damaged it. Say for example, that some rocks got misplaced, or straightlined a turn, ripping apart a berm, ..... Ask yourself, would you take the time to stop, laydown your bike, and attempt to make a repair...or are you just in too much of a flow state to bother?





    rckhopper87 I really apppreciate your comments...very elequently stated.

    2W4S:
    BINGO!/GCBY!
    Last edited by Aquaholic; 02-29-2008 at 01:42 PM.
    What the EFF is "All MOUNTAIN"???

  50. #50
    mechmann_mtb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquaholic

    How about this one?
    Racers and their wanna-be counterparts have nothing to do with it. It was just inappropriate and a poor judgement call to be riding that area that day, with that amount of precipitation falling. It shouldn't be that hard to wrap your head around that.


    Speaking of which....I read the public apology that was posted on another forum. Hoser, you sir, are a standup guy and a class act!

    Believe me, I don't have any problems wrapping my head around concepts. Sometimes it is hard to practice what we preach. I am on your side though, and truly wish that we could all just ride what we wanted when we wanted without squabbling, unfortunately it doesn't work out like that. Maybe we will get to ride together again some time soon. My new big wheeler should be done soon.

    One thing I don't get, I remember when you used to cringe at people mentioning the trails around ATT out loud. I guess you have gotten over it since so many people insist on talking about it. I know I personally sent hate mail to the guy that posted it on Egoladders. I have quite fond memories of riding that trail with you long ago. I sincerely hope that with all this increased traffic you are able to maintain your access and keep progressing. I know you put tons of hours and your heart into it, I have yet to find a trail I feel that way about.

  51. #51
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    Blame game

    Actually, from a land managers viewpoint, all the trail construction out there is far more of a reason to shut the area down than a few tire tracks. But, god is it fun!

  52. #52
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    Abberation

    Since I think riding on fire roads are almost as boring as riding on asphalt, (except when they lead to real trails) I tend to agree, mucking up a fire road is nothing to get on yer high horse about. It tends to make Ďem more interesting as far as Iím concerned. But when that damage continues on to coveted single track, I draw the line.

    Itís gonna happen, so just live with it!?! That is the wrong attitude to have!
    I donít condone sodomizing young children, but people are going to do it. either, quit having children that attract the pedophiles, or live with it. just a fact of life. Get the idea?

    Itís good you had a blast racing, teariní it up on someone elseís turf. I fully condone the pay-to-play sanctioned events. I have done my share. Unfortunately that attitude carries over into the real world, with real trails, and some of the ďadrenaline junky typesĒ donít know the difference.

    Honestly, if you think a questionably legal trail with features that make your adrenaline surge is asking to be raped, then you donít deserve to ride it. Nothing like that is ever gonna get legalized if thatís the way you treat it. Itís not a fact of life, itís an aberration of life.


    [QUOTE=mechmann_mtb]

    i don't condone damaging trails in the wet, but people are going to do it. either don't build the trails that attract riders, or live with it. just a fact of life. i appreciated the time that Aqua showed me this trail, it was tons of fun. i have not been back since and didn't share info on where the trail was.

    the questionably legal trail you guys are talking about (not the fire road, who gives an eff about a giant scar on the planet) is DH training for local racers. if you build features that attract the racer and adrenaline junky types, then expect them to train when they get a chance to ride something different. (mud)

    i certainly didn't contribute to the damage, i was racing in the mud on legal trails at a sanctioned event.

    i for one had a blast, covered in mud, going through tear-offs, slipping and sliding on the DH course in Fontana that day. totally new experience. racing in the mud ROCKS! unfortunately we don't get the opportunity to do that very often.

    /QUOTE]

  53. #53
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    i agree, but it is nearly impossible to stop people from doing whatever the hell they want. whether it makes me sick to my stomach or not, there are people that rape kids. just a fact of life. i am not a police officer, nor a prosecutor, nor a judge. my place is not to arrest, nor prosecute, nor judge fellow mountain bikers. my place is to do whatever it is that i do, and try not to eff up someone else's time while i am doing it. i know that most people don't live by that motto, most people have no concern for others, or their impact on others.

    i do try to educate when i can, if people will listen. i like to think i make a difference sometimes, but in the grand scheme of things it probably doesn't have any impact. best to just enjoy things while they are what they are.

    don't stop living life for fear of dying.

  54. #54
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    So far two of you sikos have somehow drawn links from riding in the rain to devious sexual activities with children. You guys have a pretty sick and twisted sense of logic there.

    Lets just be clear on something. First off pedophiles and driving recklessly is ILLEGAL. CVC22350 is the basic speed law and an officer can absolutely give you a ticket if you split lanes on a motorcycle on a rainy day because it is AGAINST THE LAW to drive at a speed which is not reasonable and prudent for the conditions.

    So far the sake of argument lets just say these trails are legal (which they are not and none of you should be riding there and this would be a non issue). It is not against the law to ride in the rain. It is a difference in opinion! You guys cant seem to wrap you minds around the fact that other people exercise their rights differently than you. So should we just accept bad things (such as those mentioned above) no we don't and thats why we make laws. Don't ride in the rain is not one of them. You guys are shoving your moral judgment on other people. Get off it, they are not your trails no matter how much you dig and clip. Until you sign a deed...SHUT UP!!!!

    This makes me want to take my dirt bike and roost the #%^$ out of those trails...and you know what? I am just as much in the right to do that as you are by building or riding out there you trespassing blow hards!

  55. #55
    mechmann_mtb
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    Quote Originally Posted by desert kid
    So far two of you sikos have somehow drawn links from riding in the rain to devious sexual activities with children. You guys have a pretty sick and twisted sense of logic there.
    wasn't me dude, i just responded. i break the law all the time, as i am sure most people do. laws don't stop people from doing the wrong thing... just as long as i don't ram into anybody when i am doing 80 on the freeway then i am not effing with someone else's time.

    you do have a point though. illegal trails are illegal trails. no reason to get all heated though. what is with people lately? nobody can have a decent discussion without getting all pissy...

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechmann_mtb
    i agree, but it is nearly impossible to stop people from doing whatever the hell they want. whether it makes me sick to my stomach or not, there are people that rape kids. just a fact of life. i am not a police officer, nor a prosecutor, nor a judge. my place is not to arrest, nor prosecute, nor judge fellow mountain bikers. my place is to do whatever it is that i do, and try not to eff up someone else's time while i am doing it. i know that most people don't live by that motto, most people have no concern for others, or their impact on others.

    i do try to educate when i can, if people will listen. i like to think i make a difference sometimes, but in the grand scheme of things it probably doesn't have any impact. best to just enjoy things while they are what they are.

    don't stop living life for fear of dying.

    Really? You were one of the two I was referring to.

  57. #57
    mechmann_mtb
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    Quote Originally Posted by desert kid
    Really? You were one of the two I was referring to.

    don't take my post out of context. how crazy would that be if we all did that. you just brought up devious sexual activities with children a few minutes ago. so you must include yourself then, if we take all posts out of context. i was replying to someone else's post.

    here is yours out of context. look you mentioned devious sexual activities with children!!

    ...drawn links from riding in the rain to devious sexual activities with children.

  58. #58
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    It was in context. I quoted the whole comment. You clipped out a portion, of less than a sentence no less.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by desert kid
    It was in context. I quoted the whole comment. You clipped out a portion, of less than a sentence no less.

    whatever dude. i responded to another guy's post. in any case i appreciate you helping me to waste the day away. lots of anxiety here. got a long day ahead of me tomorrow and i just can't get my mind off it without some distraction!

    have fun with roosting on poor aqua's illegal trail with your moto. i guess he will know who to go after when he finds the moto tracks.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by desert kid
    Those trails are public land. People can ride them whenever they want. They pay taxes too. It may be a bummer for you but that is a matter of opinion. Land of the free. That being said, feel FREE to keep ranting, they will feel FREE to keep riding, rain or shine.
    "Public Land". This is a fallacy. Doesn't exist. All land is owned by some entity. Private, Private for public access (aka Conservencies), and government. The land owner desides the appropriate use of the land. Paying taxes is irrelevant with regards to government land. All it takes is some person with a camera to take a photo and show up at some land use hearing and complain about the bikes harming the roads and trails and whammo something legal can become illegal. Then it comes down to what enforcement the owner decides to enact.

    Take the stunt trail of which there is a thread in this forum. It is illegal for bikes but hikers and bikes can get along so long as the DH bikes are respectful. Some wern't. Some complained and now supposedly there is going to be some enforcment in the area, so some unspecified period of time.

    It comes down to respect. Respect for the land and respect for others.

  61. #61
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    I made all of those tracks and I will do it again. Nobody is gonna tell me where and when I can or cannot ride

  62. #62
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    Right on man! Dang right they can't!

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    I made all of those tracks and I will do it again. Nobody is gonna tell me where and when I can or cannot ride
    ...speaking of tracks...
    Your mom taught you well, MoFo...

    ...every day sends future to past...

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    I made all of those tracks and I will do it again. Nobody is gonna tell me where and when I can or cannot ride

    LOL... you are probably on the phone with Aqua as you typed that!

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    I made all of those tracks and I will do it again. Nobody is gonna tell me where and when I can or cannot ride
    Were you with this notorious character?


  66. #66
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    You have the right, but you are not right

    My point was.... no one should be led to believe that we just have to accept it as a fact of life. We donít have to accept it when others act in ways that most of us think are irresponsible and unacceptable. We try to do something about it. Educate, not retaliate.

    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
    ~margaret mead

    And if you think Iím a sicko for making an analogy (pun intended) between those two behaviors which deviate from the accepted notions of right and wrong... well Iíld like to bend you over a barrel and make you watch while I come tear up your front yard and your neighborís yard while it's raining. No, I donít own the deed to any trail, but I own the right to defend what is considered ("questionably") public domain. You're right, I'm a sicko. And I'm committed.

    Quote Originally Posted by desert kid
    So far two of you sikos have somehow drawn links from riding in the rain to devious sexual activities with children. You guys have a pretty sick and twisted sense of logic there.

    So far the sake of argument lets just say these trails are legal (which they are not and none of you should be riding there and this would be a non issue). It is not against the law to ride in the rain. It is a difference in opinion! You guys cant seem to wrap you minds around the fact that other people exercise their rights differently than you. So should we just accept bad things (such as those mentioned above) no we don't and thats why we make laws. Don't ride in the rain is not one of them. You guys are shoving your moral judgment on other people. Get off it, they are not your trails no matter how much you dig and clip. Until you sign a deed...SHUT UP!!!!

    This makes me want to take my dirt bike and roost the #%^$ out of those trails...and you know what? I am just as much in the right to do that as you are by building or riding out there you trespassing blow hards!

  67. #67
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    Well you can't do that. That is assault, vandalism, and trespassing. All of which are illegal. Riding in the rain is not. Furthermore, being inconsiderate isn't illegal either.

  68. #68
    Neg reppers r my biatches
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffj
    Were you with this notorious character?
    nobody takes me serious and its getting old. you better watch the eff out for me or i'll report your asses to a moderator!

  69. #69
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    My popcorn bucket just ran out....brb
    It wasn't me

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by FoShizzle
    nobody takes me serious and its getting old. you better watch the eff out for me or i'll report your asses to a moderator!
    LOL... don't make me send burner after you. he'll fix you up fast!

  71. #71
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    You know, it does not look that bad if you ask me. It is no worse than the trail looks at the end of the summer with no rain and you are left with powdered ruts and corners.

    Could some of those tracks be yours as well? The ground still looked soft enough to leave marks from your tires. Just a thought?

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffj
    Were you with this notorious character?

    ROTFL!!!!
    That is the second best response to this thread in my opinion!

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by desert kid
    This makes me want to take my dirt bike and roil you sign a deed...SHUT UP!!!!
    ost the #%^$ out of those trails...and you know what? I am just as much in the right to do that as you are by building or riding out there you trespassing blow hards!
    We might just "accidently" lodge a shovel in your front wheel then. Karmas a *****.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by desert kid
    Well you can't do that. That is assault, vandalism, and trespassing. All of which are illegal. Riding in the rain is not. Furthermore, being inconsiderate isn't illegal either.

    Ahhhh, now look whoís telliní people what they can and canít do. And you almost sound like a sierra clubber with those serious accusations. So... if it doesnít belong to us, shouldnít we leave it how we found it?
    OR...... make it better. Peace Out.

  75. #75
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    Reputation: SHIVER ME TIMBERS's Avatar
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    Jan 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by dusthuffer
    Seriously, can't you read? The pics showed a huge, graded wide fireroad and a deep sandy corner. If you want to see trail destruction come up to ventura county. They really mess things up here.
    Brett u never been there, so don't stir the pot....and it isn't sand
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

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