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  1. #1
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    Camp Elliot East/Mission Trails north of 52 latest developments

    I have decideded to jump into this with both feet. I just found out a lot about what is going on. We as recreationists do have a voice and can make a difference. I am going to join the SDMBA and get involved

    The City Park and Rec is not happy at all with the unauthorized trails people have built on city land. This is the real issue. MTRP does not own these lands yet, and does not have authority to close them down, but the city could. The driving force is the US Fish and Wildlife and California Fish and Wildlife pushing the city to manage their open space lands.

    There will be single track trails north of the 52 and not all of the land is sensitive habitat. There is a struggle with people who want no public access versus the rest of us who want access.

    Trying to keep trails open on certain sensitive lands wil not happen, no matter what. We need to stay focused on what we can do.

    I got a lot more info I can devulge later. Maps, etc.

    Bill

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    I know a bunch of this has been posted before, but this is what I have come up with.

    The City along with stakeholders have drafted a revised Master Plan that includes the land north of 52. The idea is that as the City acquires these parcels, they will have a management strategy in place to manage them.

    The revised Master Plan will manage recreation which means some trails will be closed and we may get some new ones.

    Allied Climbers of San Diego has been working on this for years. There are numerous rock climbing areas in the park that were shut down years ago and Allied Climbers have been trying to get them opened. They have also been watching and participating in the public workshops for the Master Plan update as one of San Diego most popular bouldering locations is within East Elliot. Allied Climbers is VERY concerned that they will lose access to this great area to climb.

    Mountain Bikers (SDMBA) have been a vocal presence at every public workshop, asking for a reasoning and justification for restricting recreation.

    As the City works through the Master Planning process there will be an opportunity for public comment and involvement.

    The Draft revised Master Plan has not gone out for public comment yet. The plan will ultimately need council approval.

    KTU&A Mark Carpenter is the lead consultant on the project for the City


    MTRP Foundation has information from the public workshops posted online. The Plan has undergone revisions since the last workshop.

    As you can see from the map (link below) some of the trails located in the canyon areas of east Elliot would be closed.

    This map does not reflect the actual trail system of east Elliot which is much more comprehensive.

    http://www.ktuaprojects.com/mtrp/PW3...oncept_PW3.pdf

    The City is under pressure from the resource agencies (US Fish and Wildlife Service and California Department of Fish and Wildlife) to restrict recreation to protect resources. The City must balance this with the public’s desire to access these lands. It’s a tough position they are in and it will ultimately lead to closures of public lands to protect natural resources.

    The MTRP Citizens Advisory committee and the MTRP Task Force are public venues to express concerns over the park management. These meetings are open to the public.

    I am extremely passionate about maintaining and increasing access to public lands. Public lands of course are owned by the public and we are the public.

    The way lands are being managed today I believe that we will continue to lose our ability to enjoy them.

    If you enjoy riding East Camp Elliot, or you live close by, or both like me get involved and start by joining SDMBA. I belong to so many organizations already, I figure why not one more?

    There it is non political at that : )
    Bill

  3. #3
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    Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle . . . a sensible and informed post about what's happening in East Elliott. I'm glad you still have passion and are willing to work to remedy the coming closures. Given the history of the area and the nonsense that's going on at Del Mar Mesa, I find it hard to be optimistic that even the hardest work will effect even a moderate change.

  4. #4
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    "The City is under pressure from the resource agencies (US Fish and Wildlife Service and California Department of Fish and Wildlife) to restrict recreation to protect resources."

    Stop voting for anyone that calls themselves an environmentalist!!! Look for recreationalists instead.
    If not biking, then what?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTP View Post
    "The City is under pressure from the resource agencies (US Fish and Wildlife Service and California Department of Fish and Wildlife) to restrict recreation to protect resources."

    Stop voting for anyone that calls themselves an environmentalist!!! Look for recreationalists instead.
    In this instance, the problem is not with elected officials, but with bureaucrats -- DF&G is calling the tune and is telling the County to dance. When was the last time you voted a DF&G bureaucrat into office?

  6. #6
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    Who do you think appoints the overlord bureaucrats? The kooks appoint like-minded individuals to powerful, but stealthy posts.
    If not biking, then what?

  7. #7
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    I love fire-road.

  8. #8
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    MTP, has nailed it. The environmentalists and eco-freaks run the city and hence they drive policy making.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjphillips View Post
    MTP, has nailed it. The environmentalists and eco-freaks run the city and hence they drive policy making.
    You don't know what you're talking about -- DF&G is upset because in their eyes the City of San Diego isn't doing enough to protect the plants and animals out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canaan View Post
    You don't know what you're talking about -- DF&G is upset because in their eyes the City of San Diego isn't doing enough to protect the plants and animals out there.
    If I can't find it on Fox News, it AIN'T NEWS!!!!!
    Come to think of it, the USMC colonel who is the CO of Miramar was ON Fox News, complaining about the "mtb Menace"....the anchors were fawning all over his every word!

    Guess I'll have to Do the Right Thing, and turn myself in.....

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canaan View Post
    You don't know what you're talking about -- DF&G is upset because in their eyes the City of San Diego isn't doing enough to protect the plants and animals out there.
    Just follow the money trail. Look what special interest groups have contributed to the campaigns of the city counsel and mayor. And look at the bureaucrats they've appointed. You're blind. You need to open your eyes.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjphillips View Post
    Just follow the money trail. Look what special interest groups have contributed to the campaigns of the city counsel and mayor. And look at the bureaucrats they've appointed. You're blind. You need to open your eyes.
    This is amusing -- show me the money trail you're talking about. What special interest groups contributed to the mayor (who is no longer in office) and the city counsel [sic] to close these trails? Does it occur to you that BillinSD and others may have facts that you don't?

  13. #13
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    Facts are irrelevant to extremists regardless of their political leanings and he is obviously one of the rightward leaning varieties. Attempting any type of discussion or debate with those types is pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canaan View Post
    This is amusing -- show me the money trail you're talking about. What special interest groups contributed to the mayor (who is no longer in office) and the city counsel [sic] to close these trails? Does it occur to you that BillinSD and others may have facts that you don't?

  14. #14
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    Man, I wrote a wonderful response and goofed it up. Anyway Conservatives/Libertarians are not the problem, they are a solution. Less rules, less regulations. Sounds good to me. Bill
    Last edited by Billinsd; 09-15-2013 at 09:21 PM.

  15. #15
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    Name:  george-bush-a-ok.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billinsd View Post
    Man, I wrote a wonderful response and goofed it up. Anyway Conservatives/Libertarians are not the problem, they are the solution. Less rules, less regulations. Sounds good to me. Bill

  16. #16
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    Sorry I got side tracked on politics. I gotta stay on point and focused. Bill

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billinsd View Post
    Sorry I got side tracked on politics. I gotta stay on point and focused. Bill
    Nah you were alright, torsp mistook Bushie for maybe a conservative when he's a progressive/neocon. The progressive ilk that took over the See Air Uh Club etc are the ones causing the problem for mtbers. Same sort of thing with Ray further above where Fox is associated with being rightwing, so hilarious, when all this time Rupert Murdich is a member of CFR, a far left NWO organization(Agenda 21, "sustainable growth" blah blah blah). Can't even make this **** up!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by socal_jack View Post
    Can't even make this **** up!
    Bloody hell mate, I think you just did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 65mph12 View Post
    Bloody hell mate, I think you just did.
    Nonsense. Somebody else made that up for him.

    Meanwhile, the trails will continue to be closed, while these dum-dums are arguing over nonexistent facts. At least SOMEBODY is focused: the DF&G.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 65mph12 View Post
    Bloody hell mate, I think you just did.
    Rupert Murdock is a member of CFR.

    Membership Roster - Council on Foreign Relations

  21. #21
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    Yes, I know. The only factual bit in jack's entire contribution to the thread.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billinsd View Post
    Rupert Murdock is a member of CFR.

    Membership Roster - Council on Foreign Relations
    as is Bill and Chelsea Clinton....
    Ryan McLatchy, you are my hero

    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

    -Urban Yeti

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Raton View Post
    At least SOMEBODY is focused: the DF&G.
    With our help via Strava.

    Stravathletes, I implore you. Join me in setting your poached rides to "private" and stop contributing to the closure of great trails.

    Wait, weren't we talking politics?
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    Keep on fiddling while the trails get closed. Divide and Conquer. I'm sure Management is having a great time monitoring this thread, and others like it, that devolve into partisan bickering instead of focusing on solutions to specific problems.

    But what did I really expect from a place known as eMpTyBeeR?

  25. #25
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    I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.

  26. #26
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    Update

    News Alert: Mission Trails Regional Park Area Closure
    A Special Edition TrailNews Alert was sent out on 9/17 to inform you of a planned closure to areas of Mission Trails Regional Park, SDMBA's actions, stance, and next steps.

    I. What SDMBA knows of the planned closure
    a. It recently came to our attention that Mission Trails Regional Park (MTRP) is planning to close areas north of the 52. This includes Spring and Oak Canyons and the area referred to as East Elliot. We were told closure would include signage, enforcement and fines upward of $1500.

    b. This closure comes as a result of a letter received by the City of San Diego from the US Fish and Wildlife Services (USFW) and the California Department of Fish and Wildlife (CDFW), after a site visit revealed a considerable amount of unauthorized building and use of trails that impact highly sensitive and endangered species. The entire letter can be viewed here.

    c. Over the last several years, MTRP acquired this property to expand the park, but it came with strict land use terms dictated by the Wildlife Agencies. While trails for recreation are compatible with the terms, the area must comply with the Multiple Species Conservation Program (MSCP) and must be integrated into the MTRP Master Plan Update (MPU). More information on the MPU can be viewed here.

    II. What SDMBA has already done
    a. On Sept. 13, 2013, SDMBA representatives met with Chris Zirkle, Deputy Director of Open Space City Park and Rec., Steve Haupt, District Manager of Open Space City Park and Rec. and Jeffrey Harkness, Park Planner, City of San Diego Development Services, to get first hand information on the planned closure. They discussed what the City thinks it must do to remain compliant with the Federal decisions and policies.

    b. SDMBA representatives agreed to have Mr. Zirkle as a guest speaker at the next SDMBA Advocacy meeting to further explain the complex issues of this situation. The important result of this meeting is that it continues a dialogue between the City and us, the stakeholders.

    III. SDMBA’s stance on the planned closure
    a. SDMBA adamantly opposes the current plan to close off all recreational access to trails. We will work diligently with the City and the Wildlife Agencies to support a better alternative plan. Trail closures rarely work as intended, often resulting in negative consequences such as unauthorized trail building and use in previously unaffected areas.

    b. SDMBA has successfully partnered with federal, state and city agencies that have strictly controlled land use restrictions, with the results being protected and rehabilitated habitat along with compatible recreational trails.

    c. SDMBA believes an open discussion with all user groups and agencies involved will gain the more support and compliance compared to this unilateral approach that is being pushed on the City.

    IV. What’s Next
    a. September 18th – 7:00pm – SDMBA Monthly Advocacy Meeting at MTRP Visitor Center
    i. SDMBA has invited Chris Zirkle to be our guest speaker and to provide more information about the issue.

    ii. We will be asking Chris Zirkle to work with us to find a better alternative management plan that will best mitigate the consequences of the planned closure.

    iii. The public is welcome at this meeting. We expect everyone to conduct themselves in a professional and respectful manner.

    b. September 19th – 1:00pm – MTRP Task Force Meeting at MTRP Visitor Center
    i. This meeting is also open to the public. More information on the Task Force can be viewed here.

    ii. KTU+A: Planning and Landscape Architect Firm, will be providing an update on the MPU to the Task Force.

    iii. SDMBA will have representatives present to request a forum between all user groups, stakeholders and agencies to determine a better course of action that will be mutually beneficial to the habitat, the park and the community of park users.

    If you would like additional information, please attend this Wednesday's SDMBA Advocacy Meeting. Please also check our Facebook Page and look for another Special Edition TrailNews Alert for any updates.

    Link to letter: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4PT...it?usp=sharing

  27. #27
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    That's tomorrow. I plan to be there.
    Bill
    Last edited by Billinsd; 09-17-2013 at 06:21 PM.

  28. #28
    ocd
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    Bad news. There's now a trailer port-o-crapper parked roughly 10 feet (from the seasonal creek tat is sensitive habitat.)
    Port-o-crapper = work crews. Work crews = fences and stuff.

    *funeral march*

  29. #29
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    I don't even ride Mission Trails, but instead of everyone putting blame on the government, you should put t h e blame on the illegal trail builders. Like I said, that I don't ride Mission Trails, I do ride lots of other places, mostly Big Bear, where they have closed some illegal trails, but it is the same mostly everywhere, it's not the government " sticking to the man", it's the idiots who go out and build unauthorized, illegal trails, who are the problem. If you what/ need more trails go about it the right way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    I don't even ride Mission Trails, but instead of everyone putting blame on the government, you should put t h e blame on the illegal trail builders. Like I said, that I don't ride Mission Trails, I do ride lots of other places, mostly Big Bear, where they have closed some illegal trails, but it is the same mostly everywhere, it's not the government " sticking to the man", it's the idiots who go out and build unauthorized, illegal trails, who are the problem. If you what/ need more trails go about it the right way.
    You do have a point, as unpopular as it may be, but still, it's complicated. Many other factors at play here.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    I don't even ride Mission Trails, but instead of everyone putting blame on the government, you should put t h e blame on the illegal trail builders. Like I said, that I don't ride Mission Trails, I do ride lots of other places, mostly Big Bear, where they have closed some illegal trails, but it is the same mostly everywhere, it's not the government " sticking to the man", it's the idiots who go out and build unauthorized, illegal trails, who are the problem. If you what/ need more trails go about it the right way.
    Technically all of the trails in the subject area are illegal and always have been, so if it weren't for illegal trail builders no trails would exist. This isn't like Big Bear at all: San Diego's definition of a "trail" is a fireroad like 2N10 not singletrack, and many complete trail systems are being removed with nothing new being built. In Big Bear new trails were built BEFORE shutting down the old ones. I thank all the trail builders for giving me some singletrack to enjoy. It was fun while it lasted.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocd View Post
    port-o-crapper = work crews. Work crews = fences and stuff. *funeral march*
    the british are coming!!!

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Raton View Post
    You do have a point, as unpopular as it may be, but still, it's complicated. Many other factors at play here.
    Yep- lots of different factors and players, that include the government's inability to manage, the illegal trailbuilders going buckwild in sensitive habitat, the mountain bikers' mentality of "let's ride it until it's gone", money, and corruption.
    I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mama View Post
    Technically all of the trails in the subject area are illegal and always have been, so if it weren't for illegal trail builders no trails would exist. This isn't like Big Bear at all: San Diego's definition of a "trail" is a fireroad like 2N10 not singletrack, and many complete trail systems are being removed with nothing new being built. In Big Bear new trails were built BEFORE shutting down the old ones. I thank all the trail builders for giving me some singletrack to enjoy. It was fun while it lasted.
    You also have a point. All or most of the local metro area open space trails are either illegal to ride bicycles on or were created by 'outlaw' trail builders. And, of course, the latter are being shut down now.
    And I must say, they built some MAGNIFICENT trails! These guys have talent and stamina. That's hard work.

    When the city of Tucson/State of Arizona discovered a complex trail system on a parcel of land that was open but only for things like hunting, they looked at the ingenious network of trails, realized the effort that went into them, and then LEGALIZED them, and today, "Fantasy Island' gets a lot of use, both by locals and also by out of town visitors.

  35. #35
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    It's hard to stomach the loss of great trails. Especially since the USFG letter to MTRP, which cites the trails encroaching on threatened species, makes no mention of the proposed peaking power plant to be sited nearby, nor does it mention the continued expansion of the landfill. And I haven't seen any of the species mentioned in the USFG letter (and I look for unique flora, damnit).

    Also, I call bull**** on having the task force meeting at 1pm on a weekday. How can you say you've gotten public input when you're essentially closed to the public?

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    On a certain level, I respect the state and federal wildlife programs for trying to do the right thing in terms of protecting resources. But there is an extreme absurdity in this situation. The area north of 52 was used heavily by the USMC as a training area during WW2, and the threatened species they are trying to protect survived foot traffic, vehicle traffic, and high explosives. In the 1970's, people offroaded in the area with 4x4s and on motorcycles. And the threatened species continued to exist. Now all of a sudden they can't exist because of foot and bicycle trails?

    Both the state and the feds have limited budgets for environmental protection. AS Ebasil has noted in other posts, legitimate land use tends to drive out illegitimate use. The resource agencies would be much better off in committing to a workable trail plan that allows public use and routes it around and away from areas of critical concern.

  37. #37
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    It will be interesting to see what groups take active participation roles in working out a solution with the city.

    I'm fairly well versed with multiple groups, shops, clubs, teams and other riders that regularly led group (some... very large group) rides in the area. I hope each of those groups does the right thing and get involved in some way to work toward a solution.

  38. #38
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    I see your point also. Some gripe about the environmentalists closing down to which some of that argument may be valid, but if it wasn't for the tree hugging environmentalists, we probably wouldn't have much places to ride in areas that are not part of the nfs. Places like MTRP, the ever dwindling PQ and Calvera exist because people fought for open spaces, to which there will be a fight to who gets to use them and what is closed a n d what is open, but at least there are trails that are open and we need to fight to keep them that way, as long as they were accepted into the trail network, were done with permission and built to be sustainable.

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    Environmentalists are involved in a law suit to close the Ocotillo off road park, paid for by registration fees collected for parks to ride in. Ocotillo has been a off road park for the early 60s. Environmentalists are the enemy, it's that simple people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulie_G View Post
    Environmentalists are involved in a law suit to close the Ocotillo off road park, paid for by registration fees collected for parks to ride in. Ocotillo has been a off road park for the early 60s. Environmentalists are the enemy, it's that simple people.
    Ding, ding! Yes, and they see mountain bikers as the enemy. But they're willing to allow housing developments like castlerock to build in "sensitive" areas in exchange for political favors.

    Someone mentioned the power plant. It's called Quail Brush fossil fuel plant. I believe it was voted down. The city counsel representative from that area (Sherman??) stated that the plant wasn't needed because California (and especially San Diego) doesn't need a new power plant because we have a surplus of power already! Really? Then why is everyone's electric bill going up now that San Onofre is shutdown (another win for the eco-freaks). Also, Sherman abstained from the castlerock housing development vote. Hmm, I wonder why...?

    I guess if Ed Shultz on MSNBC didn't talk about it, it didn't happen....

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    ^^^ WJP -- No one is interested in your political rants and apparently you are not truly interested in what's going at East Elliott or you would have been at the meeting at MTRP instead of posting that drivel.

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    The biggest eco-freaks and environmentalists in San Diego are real estate developers. They get to raze the tops off of several mesas and fill them with houses, in return, they vow other land for 'mitigation', just like buying carbon credits.
    For pennies on the dollar, they get richer, and the rest of the taxpayers in San Diego get stuck with the consequences. We are seeing some of those consequences coming home to roost.
    They don't call San Diego "Enron-by-the-Sea" for nothin'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canaan View Post
    ^^^ WJP -- No one is interested in your political rants and apparently you are not truly interested in what's going at East Elliott or you would have been at the meeting at MTRP instead of posting that drivel.
    So....how did that meeting go? Any surprises?

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    ... and if we just ...

    I left the meeting a little early after my head exploded, it was real frustrating for me to watch. Everyone talked and handled themselves, very well!!!

    Maybe others had a different take, but to me the city is not going to oppose the fed and state fish and lame tyrants demands. They will slowly, and awkwardly comply with the demands the best they can. There were a lot of good logical arguments, and emotional pleas, but it's too late for that. Beaurocracies (I can't spell, lol) don't care about logic, and don't have compassion. I think SDMBA looked really good and really professional. I don't think they can do much, but it is not their fault.

    Legislation to deregulate and reduce government is my answer, but I won't hold my breath. Bill

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    Two take away thoughts from the meeting tonight.

    1. Press the city for a response to fish and wildlife as there plan will not work and the end result will be more habitat damage. This will only occur if it comes from above, city council or the Mayor.

    2. Stage an event, a flash mob of every San Diego mountain biker "breaking the law" on a Saturday morning and invite the media to watch, call it a march / protest and ceremonially pass under the bridge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 41 elgin View Post
    Two take away thoughts from the meeting tonight.

    1. Press the city for a response to fish and wildlife as there plan will not work and the end result will be more habitat damage. This will only occur if it comes from above, city council or the Mayor.

    2. Stage an event, a flash mob of every San Diego mountain biker "breaking the law" on a Saturday morning and invite the media to watch, call it a march / protest and ceremonially pass under the bridge.
    3. Liter the trails with water bottles and trash and clothes and call the trails "immigration corridors". No agency would touch that. Bill

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    The San Diego County Wildlife Federation is a fantastic organization that is committed to keeping public lands open. I don't see that SDMBA is an affiliate member? Both organizations have parallel goals of keeping access to public lands. Bill

    http://www.sdcwf.org/aboutus.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billinsd View Post
    The San Diego County Wildlife Federation is a fantastic organization that is committed to keeping public lands open. I don't see that SDMBA is an affiliate member? Both organizations have parallel goals of keeping access to public lands. Bill

    http://www.sdcwf.org/aboutus.html
    Good point, Bill I just looked at their site, and it seems to be represented by mostly hunting and fishing groups. I used to be a highly rated target shooter, in rifles, and I was a member of at least one of the clubs listed as affiliates. SDMBA would make a valuable addition to their roster, because I know from experience that many of those groups are rather meager in means. SDMBA would fit right in!

    I took the liberty, as an SDMBA member, to write their president an e-mail, including a link to SDMBA. At this point, we need all the help we can get.

  49. #49
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    Stage a ride in with media

    Quote Originally Posted by 41 elgin View Post
    Two take away thoughts from the meeting tonight.

    1. Press the city for a response to fish and wildlife as there plan will not work and the end result will be more habitat damage. This will only occur if it comes from above, city council or the Mayor.

    2. Stage an event, a flash mob of every San Diego mountain biker "breaking the law" on a Saturday morning and invite the media to watch, call it a march / protest and ceremonially pass under the bridge.
    This is the best idea to get the word out. The meeting attendees last night was just the tip of our iceberg in terms of people who the wholesale closure will affect. The only way to not turn this into a DMM 10 year whale is to make this public ASAP. My guess is the Mountain Bike community in San Diego does not troll the MTBR forums (like we do) and has no idea of the latest developments.
    The redaction of our civil liberties and use of OUR public lands needs some publicity to garnish the momentum it needs for action and to build support with our co-stakeholders.

    Otherwise this will be swept under the rug just like DMM has been for years. Just my opinion.

  50. #50
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    Come to the meeting TODAY at Mission Trails Regional Park - 1:00 PM

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostrider1 View Post


    This is the best idea to get the word out. The meeting attendees last night was just the tip of our iceberg in terms of people who the wholesale closure will affect. The only way to not turn this into a DMM 10 year whale is to make this public ASAP. My guess is the Mountain Bike community in San Diego does not troll the MTBR forums (like we do) and has no idea of the latest developments.
    The redaction of our civil liberties and use of OUR public lands needs some publicity to garnish the momentum it needs for action and to build support with our co-stakeholders.

    Otherwise this will be swept under the rug just like DMM has been for years. Just my opinion.
    For anyone who doesn't have to work, you should attend today's 1:00 PM meeting (9-19-13) at Mission Trails Regional Park Visitors Center. The Mission Trails Board Members are going to discuss what to do next. A good showing of mountain bikers, hikers, rock climbers, and all recreationists who would be affected by the closure of our park should come and let them know how you feel about it.

    Some of us (those who have been on this type of "merry-go-round" before) believe that they will simply close the entire park just to stop everyone from using the illegal trails and comply with the Feds.

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