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  1. #1
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    Camp Elliot East/Mission Trails north of 52 latest developments

    I have decideded to jump into this with both feet. I just found out a lot about what is going on. We as recreationists do have a voice and can make a difference. I am going to join the SDMBA and get involved

    The City Park and Rec is not happy at all with the unauthorized trails people have built on city land. This is the real issue. MTRP does not own these lands yet, and does not have authority to close them down, but the city could. The driving force is the US Fish and Wildlife and California Fish and Wildlife pushing the city to manage their open space lands.

    There will be single track trails north of the 52 and not all of the land is sensitive habitat. There is a struggle with people who want no public access versus the rest of us who want access.

    Trying to keep trails open on certain sensitive lands wil not happen, no matter what. We need to stay focused on what we can do.

    I got a lot more info I can devulge later. Maps, etc.

    Bill

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    I know a bunch of this has been posted before, but this is what I have come up with.

    The City along with stakeholders have drafted a revised Master Plan that includes the land north of 52. The idea is that as the City acquires these parcels, they will have a management strategy in place to manage them.

    The revised Master Plan will manage recreation which means some trails will be closed and we may get some new ones.

    Allied Climbers of San Diego has been working on this for years. There are numerous rock climbing areas in the park that were shut down years ago and Allied Climbers have been trying to get them opened. They have also been watching and participating in the public workshops for the Master Plan update as one of San Diego most popular bouldering locations is within East Elliot. Allied Climbers is VERY concerned that they will lose access to this great area to climb.

    Mountain Bikers (SDMBA) have been a vocal presence at every public workshop, asking for a reasoning and justification for restricting recreation.

    As the City works through the Master Planning process there will be an opportunity for public comment and involvement.

    The Draft revised Master Plan has not gone out for public comment yet. The plan will ultimately need council approval.

    KTU&A Mark Carpenter is the lead consultant on the project for the City


    MTRP Foundation has information from the public workshops posted online. The Plan has undergone revisions since the last workshop.

    As you can see from the map (link below) some of the trails located in the canyon areas of east Elliot would be closed.

    This map does not reflect the actual trail system of east Elliot which is much more comprehensive.

    http://www.ktuaprojects.com/mtrp/PW3...oncept_PW3.pdf

    The City is under pressure from the resource agencies (US Fish and Wildlife Service and California Department of Fish and Wildlife) to restrict recreation to protect resources. The City must balance this with the public’s desire to access these lands. It’s a tough position they are in and it will ultimately lead to closures of public lands to protect natural resources.

    The MTRP Citizens Advisory committee and the MTRP Task Force are public venues to express concerns over the park management. These meetings are open to the public.

    I am extremely passionate about maintaining and increasing access to public lands. Public lands of course are owned by the public and we are the public.

    The way lands are being managed today I believe that we will continue to lose our ability to enjoy them.

    If you enjoy riding East Camp Elliot, or you live close by, or both like me get involved and start by joining SDMBA. I belong to so many organizations already, I figure why not one more?

    There it is non political at that : )
    Bill

  3. #3
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    Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle . . . a sensible and informed post about what's happening in East Elliott. I'm glad you still have passion and are willing to work to remedy the coming closures. Given the history of the area and the nonsense that's going on at Del Mar Mesa, I find it hard to be optimistic that even the hardest work will effect even a moderate change.

  4. #4
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    "The City is under pressure from the resource agencies (US Fish and Wildlife Service and California Department of Fish and Wildlife) to restrict recreation to protect resources."

    Stop voting for anyone that calls themselves an environmentalist!!! Look for recreationalists instead.
    If not biking, then what?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTP View Post
    "The City is under pressure from the resource agencies (US Fish and Wildlife Service and California Department of Fish and Wildlife) to restrict recreation to protect resources."

    Stop voting for anyone that calls themselves an environmentalist!!! Look for recreationalists instead.
    In this instance, the problem is not with elected officials, but with bureaucrats -- DF&G is calling the tune and is telling the County to dance. When was the last time you voted a DF&G bureaucrat into office?

  6. #6
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    Who do you think appoints the overlord bureaucrats? The kooks appoint like-minded individuals to powerful, but stealthy posts.
    If not biking, then what?

  7. #7
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    I love fire-road.

  8. #8
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    MTP, has nailed it. The environmentalists and eco-freaks run the city and hence they drive policy making.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjphillips View Post
    MTP, has nailed it. The environmentalists and eco-freaks run the city and hence they drive policy making.
    You don't know what you're talking about -- DF&G is upset because in their eyes the City of San Diego isn't doing enough to protect the plants and animals out there.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canaan View Post
    You don't know what you're talking about -- DF&G is upset because in their eyes the City of San Diego isn't doing enough to protect the plants and animals out there.
    If I can't find it on Fox News, it AIN'T NEWS!!!!!
    Come to think of it, the USMC colonel who is the CO of Miramar was ON Fox News, complaining about the "mtb Menace"....the anchors were fawning all over his every word!

    Guess I'll have to Do the Right Thing, and turn myself in.....

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canaan View Post
    You don't know what you're talking about -- DF&G is upset because in their eyes the City of San Diego isn't doing enough to protect the plants and animals out there.
    Just follow the money trail. Look what special interest groups have contributed to the campaigns of the city counsel and mayor. And look at the bureaucrats they've appointed. You're blind. You need to open your eyes.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjphillips View Post
    Just follow the money trail. Look what special interest groups have contributed to the campaigns of the city counsel and mayor. And look at the bureaucrats they've appointed. You're blind. You need to open your eyes.
    This is amusing -- show me the money trail you're talking about. What special interest groups contributed to the mayor (who is no longer in office) and the city counsel [sic] to close these trails? Does it occur to you that BillinSD and others may have facts that you don't?

  13. #13
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    Facts are irrelevant to extremists regardless of their political leanings and he is obviously one of the rightward leaning varieties. Attempting any type of discussion or debate with those types is pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canaan View Post
    This is amusing -- show me the money trail you're talking about. What special interest groups contributed to the mayor (who is no longer in office) and the city counsel [sic] to close these trails? Does it occur to you that BillinSD and others may have facts that you don't?

  14. #14
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    Man, I wrote a wonderful response and goofed it up. Anyway Conservatives/Libertarians are not the problem, they are a solution. Less rules, less regulations. Sounds good to me. Bill
    Last edited by Billinsd; 09-15-2013 at 09:21 PM.

  15. #15
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    Name:  george-bush-a-ok.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billinsd View Post
    Man, I wrote a wonderful response and goofed it up. Anyway Conservatives/Libertarians are not the problem, they are the solution. Less rules, less regulations. Sounds good to me. Bill

  16. #16
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    Sorry I got side tracked on politics. I gotta stay on point and focused. Bill

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billinsd View Post
    Sorry I got side tracked on politics. I gotta stay on point and focused. Bill
    Nah you were alright, torsp mistook Bushie for maybe a conservative when he's a progressive/neocon. The progressive ilk that took over the See Air Uh Club etc are the ones causing the problem for mtbers. Same sort of thing with Ray further above where Fox is associated with being rightwing, so hilarious, when all this time Rupert Murdich is a member of CFR, a far left NWO organization(Agenda 21, "sustainable growth" blah blah blah). Can't even make this shit up!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by socal_jack View Post
    Can't even make this shit up!
    Bloody hell mate, I think you just did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 65mph12 View Post
    Bloody hell mate, I think you just did.
    Nonsense. Somebody else made that up for him.

    Meanwhile, the trails will continue to be closed, while these dum-dums are arguing over nonexistent facts. At least SOMEBODY is focused: the DF&G.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 65mph12 View Post
    Bloody hell mate, I think you just did.
    Rupert Murdock is a member of CFR.

    Membership Roster - Council on Foreign Relations

  21. #21
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    Yes, I know. The only factual bit in jack's entire contribution to the thread.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billinsd View Post
    Rupert Murdock is a member of CFR.

    Membership Roster - Council on Foreign Relations
    as is Bill and Chelsea Clinton....
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

    -Urban Yeti
    Dirttreaders.com

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Raton View Post
    At least SOMEBODY is focused: the DF&G.
    With our help via Strava.

    Stravathletes, I implore you. Join me in setting your poached rides to "private" and stop contributing to the closure of great trails.

    Wait, weren't we talking politics?
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    Keep on fiddling while the trails get closed. Divide and Conquer. I'm sure Management is having a great time monitoring this thread, and others like it, that devolve into partisan bickering instead of focusing on solutions to specific problems.

    But what did I really expect from a place known as eMpTyBeeR?

  25. #25
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    I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.

  26. #26
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    Update

    News Alert: Mission Trails Regional Park Area Closure
    A Special Edition TrailNews Alert was sent out on 9/17 to inform you of a planned closure to areas of Mission Trails Regional Park, SDMBA's actions, stance, and next steps.

    I. What SDMBA knows of the planned closure
    a. It recently came to our attention that Mission Trails Regional Park (MTRP) is planning to close areas north of the 52. This includes Spring and Oak Canyons and the area referred to as East Elliot. We were told closure would include signage, enforcement and fines upward of $1500.

    b. This closure comes as a result of a letter received by the City of San Diego from the US Fish and Wildlife Services (USFW) and the California Department of Fish and Wildlife (CDFW), after a site visit revealed a considerable amount of unauthorized building and use of trails that impact highly sensitive and endangered species. The entire letter can be viewed here.

    c. Over the last several years, MTRP acquired this property to expand the park, but it came with strict land use terms dictated by the Wildlife Agencies. While trails for recreation are compatible with the terms, the area must comply with the Multiple Species Conservation Program (MSCP) and must be integrated into the MTRP Master Plan Update (MPU). More information on the MPU can be viewed here.

    II. What SDMBA has already done
    a. On Sept. 13, 2013, SDMBA representatives met with Chris Zirkle, Deputy Director of Open Space City Park and Rec., Steve Haupt, District Manager of Open Space City Park and Rec. and Jeffrey Harkness, Park Planner, City of San Diego Development Services, to get first hand information on the planned closure. They discussed what the City thinks it must do to remain compliant with the Federal decisions and policies.

    b. SDMBA representatives agreed to have Mr. Zirkle as a guest speaker at the next SDMBA Advocacy meeting to further explain the complex issues of this situation. The important result of this meeting is that it continues a dialogue between the City and us, the stakeholders.

    III. SDMBA’s stance on the planned closure
    a. SDMBA adamantly opposes the current plan to close off all recreational access to trails. We will work diligently with the City and the Wildlife Agencies to support a better alternative plan. Trail closures rarely work as intended, often resulting in negative consequences such as unauthorized trail building and use in previously unaffected areas.

    b. SDMBA has successfully partnered with federal, state and city agencies that have strictly controlled land use restrictions, with the results being protected and rehabilitated habitat along with compatible recreational trails.

    c. SDMBA believes an open discussion with all user groups and agencies involved will gain the more support and compliance compared to this unilateral approach that is being pushed on the City.

    IV. What’s Next
    a. September 18th – 7:00pm – SDMBA Monthly Advocacy Meeting at MTRP Visitor Center
    i. SDMBA has invited Chris Zirkle to be our guest speaker and to provide more information about the issue.

    ii. We will be asking Chris Zirkle to work with us to find a better alternative management plan that will best mitigate the consequences of the planned closure.

    iii. The public is welcome at this meeting. We expect everyone to conduct themselves in a professional and respectful manner.

    b. September 19th – 1:00pm – MTRP Task Force Meeting at MTRP Visitor Center
    i. This meeting is also open to the public. More information on the Task Force can be viewed here.

    ii. KTU+A: Planning and Landscape Architect Firm, will be providing an update on the MPU to the Task Force.

    iii. SDMBA will have representatives present to request a forum between all user groups, stakeholders and agencies to determine a better course of action that will be mutually beneficial to the habitat, the park and the community of park users.

    If you would like additional information, please attend this Wednesday's SDMBA Advocacy Meeting. Please also check our Facebook Page and look for another Special Edition TrailNews Alert for any updates.

    Link to letter: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4PT...it?usp=sharing

  27. #27
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    That's tomorrow. I plan to be there.
    Bill
    Last edited by Billinsd; 09-17-2013 at 06:21 PM.

  28. #28
    ocd
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    Bad news. There's now a trailer port-o-crapper parked roughly 10 feet (from the seasonal creek tat is sensitive habitat.)
    Port-o-crapper = work crews. Work crews = fences and stuff.

    *funeral march*

  29. #29
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    I don't even ride Mission Trails, but instead of everyone putting blame on the government, you should put t h e blame on the illegal trail builders. Like I said, that I don't ride Mission Trails, I do ride lots of other places, mostly Big Bear, where they have closed some illegal trails, but it is the same mostly everywhere, it's not the government " sticking to the man", it's the idiots who go out and build unauthorized, illegal trails, who are the problem. If you what/ need more trails go about it the right way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    I don't even ride Mission Trails, but instead of everyone putting blame on the government, you should put t h e blame on the illegal trail builders. Like I said, that I don't ride Mission Trails, I do ride lots of other places, mostly Big Bear, where they have closed some illegal trails, but it is the same mostly everywhere, it's not the government " sticking to the man", it's the idiots who go out and build unauthorized, illegal trails, who are the problem. If you what/ need more trails go about it the right way.
    You do have a point, as unpopular as it may be, but still, it's complicated. Many other factors at play here.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    I don't even ride Mission Trails, but instead of everyone putting blame on the government, you should put t h e blame on the illegal trail builders. Like I said, that I don't ride Mission Trails, I do ride lots of other places, mostly Big Bear, where they have closed some illegal trails, but it is the same mostly everywhere, it's not the government " sticking to the man", it's the idiots who go out and build unauthorized, illegal trails, who are the problem. If you what/ need more trails go about it the right way.
    Technically all of the trails in the subject area are illegal and always have been, so if it weren't for illegal trail builders no trails would exist. This isn't like Big Bear at all: San Diego's definition of a "trail" is a fireroad like 2N10 not singletrack, and many complete trail systems are being removed with nothing new being built. In Big Bear new trails were built BEFORE shutting down the old ones. I thank all the trail builders for giving me some singletrack to enjoy. It was fun while it lasted.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocd View Post
    port-o-crapper = work crews. Work crews = fences and stuff. *funeral march*
    the british are coming!!!

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Raton View Post
    You do have a point, as unpopular as it may be, but still, it's complicated. Many other factors at play here.
    Yep- lots of different factors and players, that include the government's inability to manage, the illegal trailbuilders going buckwild in sensitive habitat, the mountain bikers' mentality of "let's ride it until it's gone", money, and corruption.
    I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Mama View Post
    Technically all of the trails in the subject area are illegal and always have been, so if it weren't for illegal trail builders no trails would exist. This isn't like Big Bear at all: San Diego's definition of a "trail" is a fireroad like 2N10 not singletrack, and many complete trail systems are being removed with nothing new being built. In Big Bear new trails were built BEFORE shutting down the old ones. I thank all the trail builders for giving me some singletrack to enjoy. It was fun while it lasted.
    You also have a point. All or most of the local metro area open space trails are either illegal to ride bicycles on or were created by 'outlaw' trail builders. And, of course, the latter are being shut down now.
    And I must say, they built some MAGNIFICENT trails! These guys have talent and stamina. That's hard work.

    When the city of Tucson/State of Arizona discovered a complex trail system on a parcel of land that was open but only for things like hunting, they looked at the ingenious network of trails, realized the effort that went into them, and then LEGALIZED them, and today, "Fantasy Island' gets a lot of use, both by locals and also by out of town visitors.

  35. #35
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    It's hard to stomach the loss of great trails. Especially since the USFG letter to MTRP, which cites the trails encroaching on threatened species, makes no mention of the proposed peaking power plant to be sited nearby, nor does it mention the continued expansion of the landfill. And I haven't seen any of the species mentioned in the USFG letter (and I look for unique flora, damnit).

    Also, I call bullshit on having the task force meeting at 1pm on a weekday. How can you say you've gotten public input when you're essentially closed to the public?

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    On a certain level, I respect the state and federal wildlife programs for trying to do the right thing in terms of protecting resources. But there is an extreme absurdity in this situation. The area north of 52 was used heavily by the USMC as a training area during WW2, and the threatened species they are trying to protect survived foot traffic, vehicle traffic, and high explosives. In the 1970's, people offroaded in the area with 4x4s and on motorcycles. And the threatened species continued to exist. Now all of a sudden they can't exist because of foot and bicycle trails?

    Both the state and the feds have limited budgets for environmental protection. AS Ebasil has noted in other posts, legitimate land use tends to drive out illegitimate use. The resource agencies would be much better off in committing to a workable trail plan that allows public use and routes it around and away from areas of critical concern.

  37. #37
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    It will be interesting to see what groups take active participation roles in working out a solution with the city.

    I'm fairly well versed with multiple groups, shops, clubs, teams and other riders that regularly led group (some... very large group) rides in the area. I hope each of those groups does the right thing and get involved in some way to work toward a solution.

  38. #38
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    I see your point also. Some gripe about the environmentalists closing down to which some of that argument may be valid, but if it wasn't for the tree hugging environmentalists, we probably wouldn't have much places to ride in areas that are not part of the nfs. Places like MTRP, the ever dwindling PQ and Calvera exist because people fought for open spaces, to which there will be a fight to who gets to use them and what is closed a n d what is open, but at least there are trails that are open and we need to fight to keep them that way, as long as they were accepted into the trail network, were done with permission and built to be sustainable.

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    Environmentalists are involved in a law suit to close the Ocotillo off road park, paid for by registration fees collected for parks to ride in. Ocotillo has been a off road park for the early 60s. Environmentalists are the enemy, it's that simple people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulie_G View Post
    Environmentalists are involved in a law suit to close the Ocotillo off road park, paid for by registration fees collected for parks to ride in. Ocotillo has been a off road park for the early 60s. Environmentalists are the enemy, it's that simple people.
    Ding, ding! Yes, and they see mountain bikers as the enemy. But they're willing to allow housing developments like castlerock to build in "sensitive" areas in exchange for political favors.

    Someone mentioned the power plant. It's called Quail Brush fossil fuel plant. I believe it was voted down. The city counsel representative from that area (Sherman??) stated that the plant wasn't needed because California (and especially San Diego) doesn't need a new power plant because we have a surplus of power already! Really? Then why is everyone's electric bill going up now that San Onofre is shutdown (another win for the eco-freaks). Also, Sherman abstained from the castlerock housing development vote. Hmm, I wonder why...?

    I guess if Ed Shultz on MSNBC didn't talk about it, it didn't happen....

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    ^^^ WJP -- No one is interested in your political rants and apparently you are not truly interested in what's going at East Elliott or you would have been at the meeting at MTRP instead of posting that drivel.

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    The biggest eco-freaks and environmentalists in San Diego are real estate developers. They get to raze the tops off of several mesas and fill them with houses, in return, they vow other land for 'mitigation', just like buying carbon credits.
    For pennies on the dollar, they get richer, and the rest of the taxpayers in San Diego get stuck with the consequences. We are seeing some of those consequences coming home to roost.
    They don't call San Diego "Enron-by-the-Sea" for nothin'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canaan View Post
    ^^^ WJP -- No one is interested in your political rants and apparently you are not truly interested in what's going at East Elliott or you would have been at the meeting at MTRP instead of posting that drivel.
    So....how did that meeting go? Any surprises?

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    ... and if we just ...

    I left the meeting a little early after my head exploded, it was real frustrating for me to watch. Everyone talked and handled themselves, very well!!!

    Maybe others had a different take, but to me the city is not going to oppose the fed and state fish and lame tyrants demands. They will slowly, and awkwardly comply with the demands the best they can. There were a lot of good logical arguments, and emotional pleas, but it's too late for that. Beaurocracies (I can't spell, lol) don't care about logic, and don't have compassion. I think SDMBA looked really good and really professional. I don't think they can do much, but it is not their fault.

    Legislation to deregulate and reduce government is my answer, but I won't hold my breath. Bill

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    Two take away thoughts from the meeting tonight.

    1. Press the city for a response to fish and wildlife as there plan will not work and the end result will be more habitat damage. This will only occur if it comes from above, city council or the Mayor.

    2. Stage an event, a flash mob of every San Diego mountain biker "breaking the law" on a Saturday morning and invite the media to watch, call it a march / protest and ceremonially pass under the bridge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 41 elgin View Post
    Two take away thoughts from the meeting tonight.

    1. Press the city for a response to fish and wildlife as there plan will not work and the end result will be more habitat damage. This will only occur if it comes from above, city council or the Mayor.

    2. Stage an event, a flash mob of every San Diego mountain biker "breaking the law" on a Saturday morning and invite the media to watch, call it a march / protest and ceremonially pass under the bridge.
    3. Liter the trails with water bottles and trash and clothes and call the trails "immigration corridors". No agency would touch that. Bill

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    The San Diego County Wildlife Federation is a fantastic organization that is committed to keeping public lands open. I don't see that SDMBA is an affiliate member? Both organizations have parallel goals of keeping access to public lands. Bill

    http://www.sdcwf.org/aboutus.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Billinsd View Post
    The San Diego County Wildlife Federation is a fantastic organization that is committed to keeping public lands open. I don't see that SDMBA is an affiliate member? Both organizations have parallel goals of keeping access to public lands. Bill

    http://www.sdcwf.org/aboutus.html
    Good point, Bill I just looked at their site, and it seems to be represented by mostly hunting and fishing groups. I used to be a highly rated target shooter, in rifles, and I was a member of at least one of the clubs listed as affiliates. SDMBA would make a valuable addition to their roster, because I know from experience that many of those groups are rather meager in means. SDMBA would fit right in!

    I took the liberty, as an SDMBA member, to write their president an e-mail, including a link to SDMBA. At this point, we need all the help we can get.

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    Stage a ride in with media

    Quote Originally Posted by 41 elgin View Post
    Two take away thoughts from the meeting tonight.

    1. Press the city for a response to fish and wildlife as there plan will not work and the end result will be more habitat damage. This will only occur if it comes from above, city council or the Mayor.

    2. Stage an event, a flash mob of every San Diego mountain biker "breaking the law" on a Saturday morning and invite the media to watch, call it a march / protest and ceremonially pass under the bridge.
    This is the best idea to get the word out. The meeting attendees last night was just the tip of our iceberg in terms of people who the wholesale closure will affect. The only way to not turn this into a DMM 10 year whale is to make this public ASAP. My guess is the Mountain Bike community in San Diego does not troll the MTBR forums (like we do) and has no idea of the latest developments.
    The redaction of our civil liberties and use of OUR public lands needs some publicity to garnish the momentum it needs for action and to build support with our co-stakeholders.

    Otherwise this will be swept under the rug just like DMM has been for years. Just my opinion.

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    Come to the meeting TODAY at Mission Trails Regional Park - 1:00 PM

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostrider1 View Post


    This is the best idea to get the word out. The meeting attendees last night was just the tip of our iceberg in terms of people who the wholesale closure will affect. The only way to not turn this into a DMM 10 year whale is to make this public ASAP. My guess is the Mountain Bike community in San Diego does not troll the MTBR forums (like we do) and has no idea of the latest developments.
    The redaction of our civil liberties and use of OUR public lands needs some publicity to garnish the momentum it needs for action and to build support with our co-stakeholders.

    Otherwise this will be swept under the rug just like DMM has been for years. Just my opinion.
    For anyone who doesn't have to work, you should attend today's 1:00 PM meeting (9-19-13) at Mission Trails Regional Park Visitors Center. The Mission Trails Board Members are going to discuss what to do next. A good showing of mountain bikers, hikers, rock climbers, and all recreationists who would be affected by the closure of our park should come and let them know how you feel about it.

    Some of us (those who have been on this type of "merry-go-round" before) believe that they will simply close the entire park just to stop everyone from using the illegal trails and comply with the Feds.

  51. #51

  52. #52
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    nevermind.

    The city and park managing entities fumbled long ago. Not worth the time or effort anymore.

    Keep building fences, horse facilities and venues for flute concerts. Everyone loves that!
    Last edited by ocd; 09-19-2013 at 11:58 AM. Reason: info

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Raton View Post
    Good point, Bill I just looked at their site, and it seems to be represented by mostly hunting and fishing groups. I used to be a highly rated target shooter, in rifles, and I was a member of at least one of the clubs listed as affiliates. SDMBA would make a valuable addition to their roster, because I know from experience that many of those groups are rather meager in means. SDMBA would fit right in!

    I took the liberty, as an SDMBA member, to write their president an e-mail, including a link to SDMBA. At this point, we need all the help we can get.
    Excellent!!!

  54. #54
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    Until this story gets some major TV Airtime most people won't know what is happening until it is too late. Most people who Hike and MTB in the area do not read MTBR.com.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billinsd View Post
    Excellent!!!
    ...and I got a response right back from the organization's president:

    As you may have noticed on our web site (www.sdcwf.org), we advocate for all recreational uses of public lands by the public, unless there is contrary evidence that such use would be damaging to the habitat or wildlife. Mountain biking certainly qualifies as a valid recreational use.

    My only caveat is that your members should understand that we support multiple uses of public lands, which would include hunting and fishing, and we maintain that multiple uses of those lands are compatible as long as reasonable safety guidelines are established. We embrace other activities, such as hiking, biking and horseback riding as legitimate uses of the lands that we hunt on. If mountain bikers were opposed to hunting on the same lands that they use for mountain biking, I think we would not be a good fit. When I perused your web site, it was clear that you support the multiple-user concept and did not see any bias against the hunting and fishing community.

    We would welcome your application to join our organization and would advocate for your right to ride mountain bikes on public lands just as we do other recreational uses. You can fill out an application now, which is available on our web site (www.sdcwf.org) and we will vote on it at our November meeting. Or if you like, you can come to one of our meetings so that you can decide for yourself whether it is a good fit for you. We meet at 6:30 PM on the third Monday of each month at the Sizzler's at I-15 and Aero Drive. We will have no meeting in October, since the restaurant is in the midst of a remodel and too many of us will be out of town.

    Thanks for contacting me, I think we have a common interest and our collaboration would be useful to both organizations.

    Regards,
    Bob Smith
    President, San Diego County Wildlife Federation

  56. #56
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    I wasn't able to make Wednesday night due to prior obligations and today's 1pm meeting due to work, but a friend made both meetings and he called today to say that there has been a delay on the decision to make unilateral closures. His advice was leave your tools at home (you know who you are). If land managers visit the area and find more recent trimming and/or trail destruction we've lost all leverage with land managers and ability to demonstrate self policing.

    If I get more details I'll post them up.

  57. #57
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    word is that Thursday's meeting while not positive, seemed to be moving in a more open minded direction...
    Mr Z may actually not have slammed any doors.

    If there is a point to hold on to, it is that people want to help and want to work toward a solution. It's a longshot but no one has been thrown in the klink and apparently C.Z. was out last night, on his birthday to discuss with our community. That's commendable.

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    The DF&G response to new trails being cut north of the freeway seemed disproportionate to the offense. I took a quick spin out there this evening at dusk and couldn't help but think that if the bureaucrats who managed these lands got out and actually enjoyed them, things would be done a lot differently. My guess is that 95% of the user group north of the 52 would gladly stop riding the new trails, and would police the area themselves, if they were given some assurance that they could continue riding everything else out there.

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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by Billinsd View Post
    3. Liter the trails with water bottles and trash and clothes and call the trails "immigration corridors". No agency would touch that. Bill
    I think that you are on to something, given today's political climate, and our Do-Nothing leaders.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by mealsonwheels View Post
    His advice was leave your tools at home (you know who you are). If land managers visit the area and find more recent trimming and/or trail destruction we've lost all leverage with land managers and ability to demonstrate self policing.
    too bad the people who bring the tools along are probably not readers of this forum....
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    The solution is:

    A) Do not close down anything. This is our park and it should remain open to all that want to use it.

    B) We (collectively, mountain bikers, hikers, trail runners, etc..) should go out there and repair the damage. We could have community clean up days where we go out and fix/remove the illegal trails and restore the area.

    C) We need to self enforce the rules. DFG and other agencies do not have the funding or resources to patrol the spider web network of trails out there. We need to recognize when/where there is damage and take action to fix it. Turn in people you see doing damage.

    If the park is allowed to be shutdown then the environmentalist whackos win and illegal trail builders will simply move on to a new "sensitive" area.

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    From the triathlon club of San Diego (yes some of us ride mtn bikes)

    To all TCSD mountain bike fans and Trail Runners,

    This is the stance the city is taking at Mission Trails. I rode on Monday and nothing had been closed. But if Fish and Game get involved thats when riders get fined.
    I was told by the city to write to your state representatives since Fish and Game are a state entity.

    Yours in dirt,
    Dave Kerr

    Begin forwarded message:

    From: "Ricci, Kimberly" <KRicci@sandiego.gov>
    Subject: RE: Trail Closures Mission Trails
    Date: October 3, 2013 3:29:52 PM PDT
    To: "dpkerr1@cox.net" <dpkerr1@cox.net>

    Dear David,

    Interim Mayor Gloria forwarded your message to me and asked me to respond. He very much appreciates your email and your opinion.

    The trails used by many mountain bikers have unfortunately never been officially sanctioned by the City. To my knowledge, these closures are temporary, and it is being asked that people stay off of the trails to allow Open Spaces to conduct a study.

    Thank you for taking the time to write and please stay in touch on all matters that are important to you.

    Kimberly Ricci
    Community Representative
    Office of the Interim Mayor
    202 C Street, 11th Floor
    San Diego, CA 92101
    (619) 236-6330


    From: Dave,Trish,Anna,and Bryce Kerr [mailto:dpkerr1@cox.net]
    Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 4:24 PM
    To: Councilmember Todd Gloria
    Subject: Trail Closures Mission Trails

    Dear Acting Mayor Gloria,

    US Fish and Wildlife Service to help manage some of the wildlife areas in San Diego. This allows CDFW and the USFWS to dictate certain terms to the City in how they handle the trails and manage resources.

    CDFW wrote a letter to the City recently directing them to manage the East Elliot, Spring and Oak Canyon areas. While this letter did direct the city to manage the areas, it does not require closure. The City is planning on closing the areas because (as was written below) it is easier to manage it when they close everyone out.

    Trail closures will affect mountain bike trails and this is unacceptable. Mountain bikers care about the environment way more than the beurocrats in the fish and game department. We have already lost areas in the hills of Del Mar where we are met with harassment an fines. Protecting the environment by closing it to people who love respect and enjoy it is unacceptable!

    David Kerr
    Special ed teacher
    EastLake High School
    Head Mountain Bike Coach Eastlake High School
    619-993-2987

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    I was out in the MTRP yesterday. I planned to put in two hours of low key riding . So I was by myself checking the trails. Went out Spring, came back Oak, started up Grassy Knoll. A couple hundred yards in I came across the "Closed Trail" sign, so I turned around, back to Oak, turned towards Hwy 52. So trails exist, some open, some not. Some are half open due to the abscense of signage . TO MY POINT, 2/3 the way up TOT ( another trail with zero signage at the trail head) I find the signage that says the trail is closed. At the same time, some Jack Ass lines boulders across the trail in a perpendicular manner. I take one clete out of my pedal leaving the other one clipped. I turned around after checking the signage and promptly tripped on the rocks on my way back down. I landed on my head, shoulders and knees. This is not the way I vision givining blood to the bike gods. Be aware some nut job has taken it upon themselves to provide enforcement via boulders in the trail. I'd like five minutes with this whack job to give him or her , a piece of my mind.

    I reported the Boulders in the trail ( really not a trail, but that is a different issue) to the Ranger, Heidi. She was nice about listening to me, hopefully you will not be as clumsy as me. Under any circumstance, putting boulders in the trail is irresponsible.

    My ride was much tougher than I anticipated, but some days are like that... Curly

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnhitt View Post
    I was out in the MTRP yesterday. I planned to put in two hours of low key riding . So I was by myself checking the trails. Went out Spring, came back Oak, started up Grassy Knoll. A couple hundred yards in I came across the "Closed Trail" sign, so I turned around, back to Oak, turned towards Hwy 52. So trails exist, some open, some not. Some are half open due to the abscense of signage . TO MY POINT, 2/3 the way up TOT ( another trail with zero signage at the trail head) I find the signage that says the trail is closed. At the same time, some Jack Ass lines boulders across the trail in a perpendicular manner. I take one clete out of my pedal leaving the other one clipped. I turned around after checking the signage and promptly tripped on the rocks on my way back down. I landed on my head, shoulders and knees. This is not the way I vision givining blood to the bike gods. Be aware some nut job has taken it upon themselves to provide enforcement via boulders in the trail. I'd like five minutes with this whack job to give him or her , a piece of my mind.

    I reported the Boulders in the trail ( really not a trail, but that is a different issue) to the Ranger, Heidi. She was nice about listening to me, hopefully you will not be as clumsy as me. Under any circumstance, putting boulders in the trail is irresponsible.

    My ride was much tougher than I anticipated, but some days are like that... Curly
    Was it on the city side of the trail? If so, find a lawyer and bring a lawsuit against the city. You got hurt, right?

    There's a couple of people on power trips with the rocks and other things, the park knows about it and allows it to happen.

    I'm not a litigious person but it's a failure on the city's part. What is the worst that can happen, they close the trails? Already done.

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    ^^^^booo....

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajdonner View Post
    ^^^^booo....
    Yeah, that deserves a boo, I agree.

    But there's at least one individual who takes great pride in doing such things. While city staff have claimed they asked her to leave, when I saw her last weekend and talked to her, she proudly proclaimed that the rangers "know her well" and claimed they support her work.

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    ocd,

    Don't intend to give you a hard time; but of course she would.... (Perhaps she's known as the crazy lady they placate to get her to bugger off...)

    Simply remove the rocks from the trail, smile when you see her (and her ilk) and keep riding as long the trails are accessible/exist.

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    OCD,

    Thank you for your thoughts. For now I will not seek redress. I am familiar with tort law as it relates to ownership, maintenance, and use of property. Simply put, my injuries do not warrant a suit. I mentioned the ranger I spoke with and informed her of the hazard.I take her as an honorable person and believe she will do the right thing: 1) Remove the rocks(Hazard) and 2) Record my complaint regarding the crazy lady.

    I wanted to warn my fellow Mtbr's to be vigilent regarding boulders in the trail. Personally, they have inflicted more pain an injury than any snake I have come across.

    Ride til you yak...Curly

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    I just saw this press release over on DT. I think it's excellent.

    Hikers and Bikers to Rally in Protest at Recent San Diego Trail Closures

    (San Diego, January 6, 2014) On Saturday, January 11, hundreds of trail users plan to gather at Mission Trails Regional Park (MTRP) in protest against a rash of recent trail closures across San Diego County. This will be the first such protest of its kind.

    “We are fed up—America’s finest city is quickly becoming one of the worst places in the West to be a mountain biker,” said Dustin Sharp, a professor at the University of San Diego and avid cyclist who plans to attend the protest. “We need to stop closing trails and start building them instead.”

    In late Fall, San Diego city officials closed down several trails popular with mountain bikers, trail runners, and hikers in an area north of Mission Trails Regional Park known as “East Elliot.” The area is slated to become part of MTRP in the coming years. Hikers and mountain bikers have used trails in the East Elliot area for decades.

    Trail closures were carried out at the request of the California Department of Fish and Wildlife (CDFW), citing concerns about impact on native plants. The East Elliot trails are located on a former military bombing range that was ravaged by fire nearly 10 years ago, and are situated next door to the soon-to-expand Sycamore Landfill. City officials have threatened further trail closures and heavy fines if users do not cease using the trails in question.

    According to the proposed Master Plan Update (MPU) for Mission Trails Regional Park, many of the user created trails in the East Elliot area are “well constructed narrow contour and single-track trails.” Under the proposed MPU, however, the majority of the East Elliot trails are to be closed at an unspecified point in the future and replaced with different, much wider trails required by San Diego city code, removing far more vegetation than the existing narrow trails.

    “The reason cyclists have been riding in East Elliot all these years is dead simple,” said Sharp. “It is because the needs of cyclists have been wholly ignored within the main borders of Mission Trails Regional Park itself.”

    What are referred to as “trails” within MTRP are generally 8 to 15-foot wide fireroads. Many of them are poorly constructed, moving up and down at grades higher than 20%, all highly susceptible to erosion. Citing the unacceptable quality of these roads and the near absence of genuine single-track trails open to bikes, many cyclists point to the hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on a recently constructed underutilized equestrian facility together with the eye-wateringly expensive reconstruction of the hiker-only West-side Cowles mountain trail as signs of discrimination.

    The East Elliot closures follow on the heels of other trail closures across the county, several of them initiated by CDFW. At Los Penasquitos/Del Mar Mesa, officials have closed a once-treasured trail system known as “tunnels,” and the CDFW is now aggressively ticketing and confiscating bikes for riding trails that have been in existence for many years. In an area near Cuyamaca College, CDFW officials initiated the closure of a system of neighborhood hiking trails and BMX jumps. These come in addition to closures on the San Diego National Wildlife Refuge and a decision by the Marines at MCAS/Miramar to block access to the Stowe Trail, a 100-year old trail that links Santee to Sycamore/Goodan Ranch.

    “All of us in San Diego County should be looking around to see whether our favorite trail will be next,” said Sharp. “At the rate we are going, there will be nowhere left to hike and cycle with our families and pets.”

    According to recent studies, outdoor recreation is increasing in popularly. There has been a 16% increase in mountain bike sales and fully 21% of households in San Diego use a bike on a frequent basis. At a time when the nation is facing an obesity epidemic, these figures are welcome news. Unfortunately, they also come at a time when the number of trails appears to be shrinking year to year.

    “Ultimately, this is about what kind of quality of life we are going to have as San Diegans,” said Minette Ozaki, San Diego Mountain Biking Association (SDMBA) board member and licensed massage therapist. “Access to the types of trails that are being closed is critical to physical and mental well being, yet the City is doing very little to provide alternatives.”

    The City of San Diego funds tennis courts, swimming pools, skate parks, lakes to fish in, baseball fields, golf courses, basketball courts, and soccer fields, among other things. However, unlike many other cites across the U.S., there are no dedicated trails or bike parks for mountain or BMX bikes.

    "Really, the City has done very little to promote San Diego as the cycling destination it could and should be,” said Don Sutton, a long-time researcher at the University of California San Diego and competitive cyclist. “It’s really unfortunate that rather than recognizing trails as a resource, the City seems hell-bent on closing them with no alternatives provided. When cyclist friends ask me whether to take a vacation here, I unfortunately have to tell them to look elsewhere to places that welcome mountain bike dollars.”

    At the January 11 protest, trail users plan to ride some of the legal dirt roads within Mission Trails Regional Park en masse. Riders will gather at 9am with the ride to begin at 10am. It is hoped that the rally will send a message to local, state, and federal officials that mountain bikers want to work productively to make San Diego one of the finest cities for mountain biking, hiking, and trail running. The event is not being organized by any one group or person, but is intended as a spontaneous reaction to express distress at closures across the county.

    “It doesn’t have to be this way,” said Doug Johnson, lifetime San Diegan, owner of a construction management firm, and avid cyclist. “The fruitful cooperation between riders and federal, state, and local officials in places such as Big Bear, San Luis Obispo, and Tahoe is proof that things in San Diego can get better. As mountain bikers, we want to be working with managers of public lands, not against them.”

    Dirt Treaders Mountain Biking Community • View topic - Hikers and Bikers to Rally in Protest at Recent San Diego Tr

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    Are riders currently being ticketed during the week during the day?

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    who is putting rocks on the trail?

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