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  1. #1
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    Big Bear...Out of bounds trails closed

    the forestry dept came in and did a complete closeure top to bottom of all your favorite trail...so good with a few rain storms you may never know they exsisted...never seen anybody do the job they did....anyway just a heads up so you don't go looking and have to pedal back.
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    Man.. That's a shame.

  3. #3
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    Are we talking...all? Like roughly 5 or 6 depending how you count them?

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    Are they posted closed or did they somehow cover them up?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlmuncie View Post
    Are they posted closed or did they somehow cover them up?
    ..we are talking all....and no signs....so you pedal over to them and then will have to pedal back .....and I do mean top to bottom complete
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    Hmmm, not really worth going up there anymore then. That's too bad.


    Your tax dollars at work!

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    apparently not all: plantation, wet dream aka forest dream, trick or treat are still legal.

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    Sounds like some really worthwhile work they are doing up there. I wonder when the Walmart will go in?

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    Please provide a link. I cannot find any mention of this online. Thanks!

  10. #10
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    i also directly heard it from a good friend that went.
    weak, that was a big part of the place. the place drops many notches in my book. mammoth back to 10x greater than big bear again

  11. #11
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    I was thinking about going tomorrow and haven't ridin summit yet is it worth it now or not

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shrive81 View Post
    I was thinking about going tomorrow and haven't ridin summit yet is it worth it now or not
    Well 95% of the people riding up there probably never touched the out of bounds trails. It's definitely worth going at least once to ride the legal trails. They are pretty fun.

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    Well it will be my first time anyone want to roll with me or meet me up there

  14. #14
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    Back in the day I rode many of the out of bounds trails, but since Summit start building trails I spent my day on Westridge. While I do not like that they closed them, I don't think it is going to ruin the down hill experience up there.

    Now, you said they are closed from top to bottom, but there are no signs.... so how are they closed?
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    They did extensive naturizing of the trails, so much that you wouldn't even know they were there if you did not have previous knowledge...closed by virtue of no longer existing. If the USFS put a fraction of the effort they must have spent doing this into maintaining trails and following better fire prevention methods, we would be a TON better off. Seems like they need our tax dollars AND money from questionably legal forest adventure passes to subsidize all the policing they have to do to make sure everyone has forest adventure passes...and of course to protect everyone from the scourge of us!

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    That said, still totally worth it for the 3 on property trails we have now....maybe not for someone of Gemini's level unless he wants a mellow day! This plus the ridiculous 10 mile a yr limit the USFS slapped on Summit really sucks...Summit is still doing a really good job with their hands tied a bit.

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    They did in fact close most of the illegal trails. The trails that were closed were poorly made and caused tons of erosion. I'm not so against illegal trails, that's how alot of the trails up here were made, I'm just against poorly made and designed trails. Anything that goes straight down the fall line is poorly designed, that's one reason they were shut down.

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    Yeah, I'm not sure there's much they can do to "close" some of the those trails. As you said they just went straight down the hill. Unless they added lots of unrideable obstacles or something. Those can always be moved or cut away though....

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini2k05 View Post
    Yeah, I'm not sure there's much they can do to "close" some of the those trails. As you said they just went straight down the hill. Unless they added lots of unrideable obstacles or something. Those can always be moved or cut away though....
    honestly....it would take 10 guys a full week to clean out one trail to ride.....but then you would need something to to move 30 to 50 foot trees that are 3 feet wide....they chopped trees down to block trails....honestly these trails are done...they did the most thorough job I have ever seen
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS View Post
    honestly....it would take 10 guys a full week to clean out one trail to ride.....but then you would need something to to move 30 to 50 foot trees that are 3 feet wide....they chopped trees down to block trails....honestly these trails are done...they did the most thorough job I have ever seen
    Cutting down trees to save the forest eh?


    Seems legit.........



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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klurejr View Post
    Cutting down trees to save the forest eh?


    Seems legit.........



    Beautiful irony, isn't it?

    Yeah, these trails ain't coming back. I have never seen such thorough decommissioning...

  22. #22
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    Big Bear...Out of bounds trails closed

    Forests are thinned on a large scale in the name of forest health all the time. Part of the issue with the Rim fire is that some areas are overgrown because of a 100 year old policy that every fire be extinguished as quickly as possible.

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    Gosh this pisses me off, I was looking forward to riding these new trails this month when it cools down some.

    This is why so many trails in the san bernadino mtns are all local built secret trails, because big brother always comes in and shuts them down.

    I live in lake arrowhead and what the forestry wants us to do with our property is ridiculous. We have to clear out trees less than 5 inches in diameter if they are within 8 ft of another tree. They claim this will help prevent forest fires and will leave more water for the older growth trees. This is all complete bull and I'll tell you why.

    1. The more the sun hits the ground, the more weeds can grow because weeds need a lot of sun to grow and multiply. What does this do? It creates a worse off fire condition because the weeds die and dry up making it easier to catch fire.

    Another thing is that the more the sun can heat the ground, the faster the ground dries up, so by cutting down all the small trees, you're not benefiting the larger ones because the younger trees help shade the ground even further. Keeping it more moist into the late spring.

    2. When you cut the younger growth, you are destroying the future of the forest, no younger trees, no trees that will take the place of older growth when those trees die.

    3. Every dam fire is started on the southern facing slopes, the sunny side where all the low growing brush and weeds grow. The fire will build intensity and if the fire can burn down 100ft plus trees filled with water and sap, those little trees won't mean crap.

    4. Oh, and this was all subsidized by your tax dollars.

    I never did it, I would have had to cut out around 20 trees. When the guy showed up on my property to survey, I told him to get the F off my property and to take me to court. He never came back.

    The government is nothing more than a bunch of idiots exercising their power, nothing more.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by scvkurt03 View Post
    Forests are thinned on a large scale in the name of forest health all the time. Part of the issue with the Rim fire is that some areas are overgrown because of a 100 year old policy that every fire be extinguished as quickly as possible.
    in the 1840 book by Richard Henry Dana (Dana Point) "Two Years Before the Mast" ....One thing I found interesting was Richard saying California was always on fire when he took the ship up and down the coast....lightening strikes and what not but always burning...
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirsam84 View Post

    Yeah, these trails ain't coming back. I have never seen such thorough decommissioning...
    tru dat
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    What some don't understand is, the forestry closing those trails, was an agreement that new, more sustainable trails are to be built. Most of the trails in question that are being closed is not a " big brother" or the government " sticking in to the man" it's because those trails were so poorly made/ designed. If your going to go out and built a trail, make it with some common sense involved, don't know how many of you have ridden those trails in question, but they were stupidly designed and causing tons of erosion because most of the trails went straight down the fall line. New trails are coming, most aren't being made to accommodate guys/ girls on big travel bikes( except on Snow Summit), but they are being more properly built....remember this word when it comes to trail building..."substantibility"
    I'm for more trails, just the trails have to be done right.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    What some don't understand is, the forestry closing those trails, was an agreement that new, more sustainable trails are to be built. Most of the trails in question that are being closed is not a " big brother" or the government " sticking in to the man" it's because those trails were so poorly made/ designed. If your going to go out and built a trail, make it with some common sense involved, don't know how many of you have ridden those trails in question, but they were stupidly designed and causing tons of erosion because most of the trails went straight down the fall line. New trails are coming, most aren't being made to accommodate guys/ girls on big travel bikes( except on Snow Summit), but they are being more properly built....remember this word when it comes to trail building..."substantibility"
    I'm for more trails, just the trails have to be done right.
    Your lac of inelegance is entertaining, at least I know I'm not drinking the coo laid.

    First thing is first, why did the forestry close the Rim Nordic Super D and DH races this season??? Because they "built" the trail wrong; I raced both trails two times last year and there wasn't a dam thing wrong with the trail. So this is a second show up of the forestry flexing their muscles.

    Erosion??? I live up here, I know you don't just by reading that comment. You should see the natural erosion that occurs from summer thunderstorms when we get flash flooding, the water creates little rivers all over the mountain. I would know because I have several behind my cabin that occur when this happens and it pushes dirt and makes the canal bigger.

    So you're saying they couldn't create water canals down the trail so that the water could flow without erosion??? Like what trail builders do to direct water off the trial? And by cutting the trees down to block the trail solves the problem, why not dig up the trial and redesign it?? Because they don't want it there at all. They could have, its just that the forestry dept. doesn't want any further development of trails on THEIR LAND, if you haven't realized its not ours, it's the governments. One more thing, what do you think the water does when the trail isn't there??? lol, stupid people.

    I do agree we need some order so that there aren't a thousand different trails all over the place, but think about it this way. Do you really believe any of us would build so many trails until you can't ride a single one without crossing over other trails?

    I do landscaping and I know the environment up here better than anyone else, and if you actually read what I've posted in my other statement, you'd realize that it's not about the environment anymore, it's about control over what we can do. Because the "elite" somehow believe they know everything and we have to conform to their ways.
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  28. #28
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    For the record, I believe Hurricane Jeff lives in Big Bear.
    ============================
    Some of the closures seem to not be consistent with the supposed reasons. If I understand which trails have been closed, and which remain. I'm not advocating that they should close other trails because they are even less sustainable than those which were closed.

    As an example, how is the lower section of Castle Rock more sustainable and better built than the section of Cabin 89 that was closed?

    With so many riding SS these days, just the greatly reduced traffic would have gone a long ways toward those trails requiring much less maintenance.

    Also, I'm not particularly a fan of being herded into a relative bull ring where trails resemble the on-ramp to the 405 on a busy day. If you were a dirt biker in the 70's, you remember what happened to dirt bikes back then. Not that something shouldn't have been done, but that was quite drastic IMHO. The powers that were made it so that dirt bikes were restricted to small areas, and everybody is all up in everyone else's business. Many of us go to the forest to get away from from crowds, not to hang with them in a different environment.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by camarosam View Post
    I live in lake arrowhead and what the forestry wants us to do with our property is ridiculous. We have to clear out trees less than 5 inches in diameter if they are within 8 ft of another tree. They claim this will help prevent forest fires and will leave more water for the older growth trees. This is all complete bull and I'll tell you why.

    1. The more the sun hits the ground, the more weeds can grow because weeds need a lot of sun to grow and multiply. What does this do? It creates a worse off fire condition because the weeds die and dry up making it easier to catch fire.

    Another thing is that the more the sun can heat the ground, the faster the ground dries up, so by cutting down all the small trees, you're not benefiting the larger ones because the younger trees help shade the ground even further. Keeping it more moist into the late spring.

    2. When you cut the younger growth, you are destroying the future of the forest, no younger trees, no trees that will take the place of older growth when those trees die.

    3. Every dam fire is started on the southern facing slopes, the sunny side where all the low growing brush and weeds grow. The fire will build intensity and if the fire can burn down 100ft plus trees filled with water and sap, those little trees won't mean crap.

    4. Oh, and this was all subsidized by your tax dollars.

    I never did it, I would have had to cut out around 20 trees. When the guy showed up on my property to survey, I told him to get the F off my property and to take me to court. He never came back.

    The government is nothing more than a bunch of idiots exercising their power, nothing more.
    ^^ That is some funny sh*t...

    Lets hope you never have to learn first hand why they are called suicide subdivisions.

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    If "properly built" is exemplified by Skyline Trail, then we have an issue. While I am grateful that trail was built (generously given to us by the USFS essentially allowing trail to be built on the shoulder of the fireroad), it almost seems like the potential fun element, even given restrictions aforementioned, was deliberately suppressed. I'm not talking about big bike vs little bike issues here...ex

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    If "properly built" is exemplified by Skyline Trail, then we have an issue. While I am grateful that trail was built (generously given to us by the USFS essentially allowing trail to be built on the shoulder of the fireroad), it almost seems like the potential fun element, even given restrictions aforementioned, was deliberately suppressed. I'm not talking about big bike vs little bike issues here...exploration trail and SART are examples of xc trails that are far more enjoyable because they seem to maximize flow and fun rather than the skyline approach.

  32. #32
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    I can understand hurricane jeff's post but closing the other trails so they can open up others at SS is untrue... when the Summit trail was made the forestry dept said it was too wide and penalized SS. saying essentially you made 2 trails. now instead of some new trails being built to ease traffic flow. They have SS in a new trail making hold(slowing down the making of new trails). This sucks....and furthermore one only has to look at NorthStar....they have trails like the out of bounds trails of SS....they have many trails steep and loose there at NStar. And lake Tahoe has more stringent laws then Big Bear.

    Honestly, Snow Summit is fvcked by the forrestry dept. SS has seen the traffic this year. Many people want to go there because it is close. SS has a huge population of bikers in it's radius pull, plus a lot of sunshine. They could easily build some A line type trails, some steep trails with pavers(sustanable). they could make the place something special but the forrestry dept is holding there hands behind their back. It gets pretty boring riding 3 trails. That is why I liked the other stuff and it is gone.

    Lift lines and only 3 trails is tough to make money. ....it is sad
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    Not to rain on anyone's parade but SS is a SKIING resort that just so happens to offer a little bit of cycling. I rode the lifts with family again this Summer as we always do for entertainment when we are up there. It's not my kind of riding place but it was slammed with cyclists.

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    camarosam, I do live in Big Bear, while closing the super d and DH courses at Rim Nordic, in my opinion, pretty stupid of the forestry, but maybe they were made without permission, which I can somewhat understand...but they again, since you "know the environment better than anyone else" maybe there are other reasons, ie space aliens, zombies, etc.
    What I gather from your argument is, that there is not a proper way to built trails, just built and they will sustain themselves I guess, right? Have you ridden those trails in question?
    I'm not totally a fan of the Forestry or of any trail being closed and I believe that we shouldn't be restricted with so much limitations sometimes, but your skepticism of the government is frightening....

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    Not to rain on anyone's parade but SS is a SKIING resort that just so happens to offer a little bit of cycling. I rode the lifts with family again this Summer as we always do for entertainment when we are up there. It's not my kind of riding place but it was slammed with cyclists.
    Whistler was also, but their biggest days are now summer with bikes and not winter. There is a definite shift for some of these resorts and SS has a huge opportunity because of the population base nearby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    Not to rain on anyone's parade but SS is a SKIING resort that just so happens to offer a little bit of cycling. I rode the lifts with family again this Summer as we always do for entertainment when we are up there. It's not my kind of riding place but it was slammed with cyclists.
    This is the most worthless comment I've ever seen on mtbr.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    Whistler was also, but their biggest days are now summer with bikes and not winter. There is a definite shift for some of these resorts and SS has a huge opportunity because of the population base nearby.
    something to think about Whistler made more money last year on mtn biking then it did on skiiing...maybe this year too...think about that more profit on mtn biking. SS has a longer biking season and greater population pool
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    I saw it stated earlier that the was a limit to the number of miles that's Snow Summit can put on its mountain per year. To even try to compare them to an establishment like Whistler, Mammoth, or North Star in SS's first year of operation is a bit absurd. Maybe now that they have seen the crowds, and realize they will be putting in more trails next year, SS will open more left service to accommodate everybody.
    Hopefully some of those trails will be a small compensation for the ones closed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankerboy View Post
    I saw it stated earlier that the was a limit to the number of miles that's Snow Summit can put on its mountain per year. To even try to compare them to an establishment like Whistler, Mammoth, or North Star in SS's first year of operation is a bit absurd. Maybe now that they have seen the crowds, and realize they will be putting in more trails next year, SS will open more left service to accommodate everybody.
    Hopefully some of those trails will be a small compensation for the ones closed?
    Opening the non-wilderness sections of the PCT to bikes would a small compensation....

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    Also, the argument of unsustainable erosion prone trails is suspect. They closed Ho Chi Minh, upper Dickies, Sinners, not to mention all the other more xc ST on the west side, NONE of which seemed even remotely more erosion prone than any of the "legal" trails. At the same time, they kept the fall line crap sandpit known as old national open????? They also neutered that fun rock tech section of lower fall line and took out the little jumps built over fallen logs (which they never bothered to clean up in the first place)!

    The USFs can do whatever it pleases, but they should be honest about the reasons!

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirsam84 View Post
    The USFs can do whatever it pleases, but they should be honest about the reasons!
    Yeah, it has nothing to do with "erosion". Erosion is to the USFS like terrorism and national security is to the rest of the federal government. I've been riding those trails for the better part of a decade now. They are no more eroded or blown out then when I started riding them, and I REALLY doubt they get much if any maintenance. It's about control, exerting control to feel important and powerful.

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    Sucks. Was hoping to go up next weekend before it got all closed down.

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    I guess none of you guys who posted attended any of the "town hall meetings" from either the USFS, BB Trails foundation or the City of BBL masterplan (in regards to trail building, maintenance and trail closures). Maybe I dont sound like it, but I dont want any trail closures, I'm not a fanboy of the USFS in regards to their forestry rules, Im not paranoid of the Government either. The point Im making is, they are closing some of the illegal trails and will be building more legal, sustainable trails in the future, its a give and take situation. I agree, some of the trails they closed or planning on closing, make no sense at all, some of the trails they did close however, I can understand.

    There are always going to be people complaining about anything that may affect them, some dont see the big picture. If the USFS just let illegal trail building, by either cyclist, motorcycles, jeeps, equestrians. etc, the forest would be a mess, like it or not, there has to be rules, be it on guns, alcohol, automobiles, trail building,etc, or we would just have mayhem.

    Done.......

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by camarosam View Post
    Gosh this pisses me off, I was looking forward to riding these new trails this month when it cools down some.

    This is why so many trails in the san bernadino mtns are all local built secret trails, because big brother always comes in and shuts them down.

    I live in lake arrowhead and what the forestry wants us to do with our property is ridiculous. We have to clear out trees less than 5 inches in diameter if they are within 8 ft of another tree. They claim this will help prevent forest fires and will leave more water for the older growth trees. This is all complete bull and I'll tell you why.

    1. The more the sun hits the ground, the more weeds can grow because weeds need a lot of sun to grow and multiply. What does this do? It creates a worse off fire condition because the weeds die and dry up making it easier to catch fire.

    Another thing is that the more the sun can heat the ground, the faster the ground dries up, so by cutting down all the small trees, you're not benefiting the larger ones because the younger trees help shade the ground even further. Keeping it more moist into the late spring.

    2. When you cut the younger growth, you are destroying the future of the forest, no younger trees, no trees that will take the place of older growth when those trees die.

    3. Every dam fire is started on the southern facing slopes, the sunny side where all the low growing brush and weeds grow. The fire will build intensity and if the fire can burn down 100ft plus trees filled with water and sap, those little trees won't mean crap.

    4. Oh, and this was all subsidized by your tax dollars.

    I never did it, I would have had to cut out around 20 trees. When the guy showed up on my property to survey, I told him to get the F off my property and to take me to court. He never came back.

    The government is nothing more than a bunch of idiots exercising their power, nothing more.
    You really don't know what you are talking about. That was the nicest way I could put it.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS View Post
    ....They could easily build some A line type trails,....
    They could build a much shorter version, but the fact that Whistler gets WAY more rain in the summer than Big Bear on average (Whistler British Columbia Canada Climate Graphs, with Monthly Temperatures, Precipitation, & Snowfall in Whistler, California Data Exchange Center) means that the problems Whistler has keeping A-Line in ridable shape (especially this summer with the lack of rain) would be exponentially worse at Snow Summit. But...I guess they have that problem with all their trails.

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    Disgusting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whodaphuck View Post
    would be exponentially worse at Snow Summit. But...I guess they have that problem with all their trails.
    All wood takeoffs, pavered berms. Problem solved

  48. #48
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    Makes sense. Actually haven't ridden bb for years and was going on my memory of the dust pit it was looong ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini2k05 View Post
    Yeah, it has nothing to do with "erosion". Erosion is to the USFS like terrorism and national security is to the rest of the federal government. I've been riding those trails for the better part of a decade now. They are no more eroded or blown out then when I started riding them, and I REALLY doubt they get much if any maintenance. It's about control, exerting control to feel important and powerful.
    Control and being in the pocket of Sierra club and other anti biking group lobbyists!

    Love the terrorism analogy! Spend trillions on something that kills fewer people than deer or lightning annually!

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    That illegal trail argument is ridiculous. They were system trails merely because the USFS screwed over Pat Follett when he tried to take the legal approach to get them included. Another smoke screen. This is not some Tea Party anti government ranting (trust me, I think they are more dangerous to this country than Al Qaeda).

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    I guess none of you guys who posted attended any of the "town hall meetings" from either the USFS, BB Trails foundation or the City of BBL masterplan (in regards to trail building, maintenance and trail closures). Maybe I dont sound like it, but I dont want any trail closures, I'm not a fanboy of the USFS in regards to their forestry rules, Im not paranoid of the Government either. The point Im making is, they are closing some of the illegal trails and will be building more legal, sustainable trails in the future, its a give and take situation. I agree, some of the trails they closed or planning on closing, make no sense at all, some of the trails they did close however, I can understand.

    There are always going to be people complaining about anything that may affect them, some dont see the big picture. If the USFS just let illegal trail building, by either cyclist, motorcycles, jeeps, equestrians. etc, the forest would be a mess, like it or not, there has to be rules, be it on guns, alcohol, automobiles, trail building,etc, or we would just have mayhem.

    Done.......
    true but you fix it in 1998 not 15 years later....some of those trails are that old
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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by whodaphuck View Post
    They could build a much shorter version, but the fact that Whistler gets WAY more rain in the summer than Big Bear on average (Whistler British Columbia Canada Climate Graphs, with Monthly Temperatures, Precipitation, & Snowfall in Whistler, California Data Exchange Center) means that the problems Whistler has keeping A-Line in ridable shape (especially this summer with the lack of rain) would be exponentially worse at Snow Summit. But...I guess they have that problem with all their trails.
    you can build it with pavers for lips that don't erode and old carpet for landings over the dirt...carpet holds the dirt in place...and you still have a softer landing then pavers

    if you don't like carpet then something more enviromentally friendly..thick canvas???
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  53. #53
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    the illegal trails were nothing but skidmarks straight down the hill. just go skid straight down somewhere else. new trail, problem solved...


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    Couldn't have said it better myself...pretty much sums it up.

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    Bull$&@&! Upper Dickies, Sinners, and upper Fall line were less eroded and steep than some of the "legal" trails esp old national! This false narrative should be put to bed! Also, the neutering of lower Fall line is gonna set it up for MORE erosion and sketchy loose stuff...

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    Lets just hope you continue to drink the coo laid and remain poor your whole life never wondering why you can't get anywhere. Oh, thats right, because you vote for government. You're voting yourself more poor every time you go to the booth.
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    raisingarizona

    Explain to me where I'm wrong? Educate me since you believe I don't know what I'm talking about.

    Entertain me, please.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    camarosam, but your skepticism of the government is frightening....
    If you would read and educate yourself you should know you shouldn't trust government. And for you to trust it shows your lack of knowledge of the history of the world. I want you to try and comprehend with me here, I'm going to say something and lets see if you have the knowledge to answer this correctly.

    You know when you go to national parks and there are signs all over saying, "don't feed the animals because they are wild"? And they explain, it is because if you continually feed them they will lose their ability to look for food themselves. Basically not being a wild animal anymore and not able to fend for itself.

    Here is where I'm going with this, what is the difference with humans? Why is it that government organizations talk this way about animals but when it comes to government handouts it is not looked at from the same perspective. Don't you think that these handouts have the same affect on human brains? That if they are comfortable with basic material being handed to them they will not go out and "hunt" for the real stuff, to expand their human capital?

    After looking at it this way, do you think the government is now doing this on purpose to expand its voting base? Why are we always out to give more handouts and to give more government jobs? It's called power my friend, and it only leads to one thing, poverty. With highly educated psychologist out there, do you believe the government hasn't caught on to this? What did Hitler do? Stalin? Moa?

    Fun fact. Texans pay 42% less in taxes than we do in California, yet the poverty rate in California is 42% higher. Just a fun fact. I'm an economist and you're going up against a brick wall.

    For starters, youtube Milton Friedman and watch his "Free to Choose" show done 30 years ago, there are ten episodes and they are an hour long. This will help with your human capital.
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    Reading through this thread, I am a little confused. I am hoping to go up the weekend of October 5th for some Oktoberfest and hopefully some trails is Snow Summit is still open or I might even go check out the north side of the lake behind the Discovery Center. Are the trails like 2N10 and Skyline still available for riding?

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Island20v View Post
    Reading through this thread, I am a little confused. I am hoping to go up the weekend of October 5th for some Oktoberfest and hopefully some trails is Snow Summit is still open or I might even go check out the north side of the lake behind the Discovery Center. Are the trails like 2N10 and Skyline still available for riding?
    Yes. The trails that have been closed are the "illegal" (I don't need a debate) DH trails that you won't find on any map. You can ride 2N10, Pine Knot, the Kenda Cup race course, all that good stuff is still there. Last time I was there I rented a cabin in BBC on the north side, there's some fun trails up there too.

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    Trails like 2N10, Skyline, 1E01, etc, are on forest land and are always open but you will have to do some climbing if the lifts aren't operating. By Oct 5th the lifts will probably be shutdown for the season, call Summit to verify. The only trails that are likely to be closed for the season are the 3 downhill trails on Summit property so there is still a ton of great riding.

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    Earlier this week I called the Snow Summit office and they are under the impression that the park should be open till mid-October.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Island20v View Post
    Earlier this week I called the Snow Summit office and they are under the impression that the park should be open till mid-October.
    Good to know! Thanks!
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    RIP World Cup (Colin bailey), Benches, Sweepers...someone put a lil cross and flowers at the bottom of World Cup. Previously mentioned, but bottom of lower fall line and fern have been turned into a fire road, and serious neutering of upper lower fall line happened

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by camarosam View Post
    Gosh this pisses me off, I was looking forward to riding these new trails this month when it cools down some.

    This is why so many trails in the san bernadino mtns are all local built secret trails, because big brother always comes in and shuts them down.

    I live in lake arrowhead and what the forestry wants us to do with our property is ridiculous. We have to clear out trees less than 5 inches in diameter if they are within 8 ft of another tree. They claim this will help prevent forest fires and will leave more water for the older growth trees. This is all complete bull and I'll tell you why.

    1. The more the sun hits the ground, the more weeds can grow because weeds need a lot of sun to grow and multiply. What does this do? It creates a worse off fire condition because the weeds die and dry up making it easier to catch fire.

    Another thing is that the more the sun can heat the ground, the faster the ground dries up, so by cutting down all the small trees, you're not benefiting the larger ones because the younger trees help shade the ground even further. Keeping it more moist into the late spring.

    2. When you cut the younger growth, you are destroying the future of the forest, no younger trees, no trees that will take the place of older growth when those trees die.

    3. Every dam fire is started on the southern facing slopes, the sunny side where all the low growing brush and weeds grow. The fire will build intensity and if the fire can burn down 100ft plus trees filled with water and sap, those little trees won't mean crap.

    4. Oh, and this was all subsidized by your tax dollars.

    I never did it, I would have had to cut out around 20 trees. When the guy showed up on my property to survey, I told him to get the F off my property and to take me to court. He never came back.

    The government is nothing more than a bunch of idiots exercising their power, nothing more.
    You live in the only HOA on this side of the hill. Thats why you have those Nazi rules. I do whatever I want over here in Twin Peaks and answer to nobody. The houses that burned in the Slide Fire were a result of AWACs thinning policy.
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    Well looks like the USFS rerouted the lower section and trailhead for pineknot...took out the fun little roll in through the last mile or so. The new section is very similar to skyline...well cut but flat grade and ups and downs instead of the fun downhill grade from before. Definite downgrade...that trail has been there for like 20 yrs and just now they decide the bottom portion encroaches on some sort of habitat. This is just more of the pro quo to expect from them "allowing" the bike park....for once, I am rooting for the lunatics like Ted Cruz to succeed in their kamikaze mission and shut down the government!

  67. #67
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    Yeah, that kind of logic will take you far...

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    Facetious statement, of course...we may end up seeing this scenario whether we want it or not...

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    I was just up there last weekend and rode Pineknot/1eo1. I did not notice any rerouting....
    What part of the trail are you referring to?

  70. #70
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    You know............ All of you are *****ing and moaning about this but at least you can go up there and ride. I crashed two months ago. My arm is still in a cast, I have another
    3 1/2 weeks to go, than a month of physical therapy. I would die for one day of just being able to ride my bike down the street let alone being ale to ride any of the trails that they built up there. Quit *****ing and be thankful that we have a place so cool to ride that doesn't take the amount of time a road trip to Mammoth costs. Things change. It's inevitable. Be happy for what you have.
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  71. #71
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    Big Bear...Out of bounds trails closed

    Quote Originally Posted by spunkmtb View Post
    You know............ All of you are *****ing and moaning about this but at least you can go up there and ride. I crashed two months ago. My arm is still in a cast, I have another
    3 1/2 weeks to go, than a month of physical therapy. I would die for one day of just being able to ride my bike down the street let alone being ale to ride any of the trails that they built up there. Quit *****ing and be thankful that we have a place so cool to ride that doesn't take the amount of time a road trip to Mammoth costs. Things change. It's inevitable. Be happy for what you have.
    Amen to that. Hope you're back up soon, brother!

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    The last mile or so...right before the somewhat techy roll in through the trailhead. The trailhead itself has also been moved so it comes off of the fireroad

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by scvkurt03 View Post
    Amen to that. Hope you're back up soon, brother!
    Thanks!!!! I got to ride up there only once this year. It was an awesome day.
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    I heard that the bottom of pineknot was going to be rerouted, haven't ridden it yet, maybe I'll include it on my ride today.

    For all the people complaining over the forestry closing or 're-routing of some trails, no one up here( Big Bear locals) are complaining, we know that there is work to be done as far as improving the existing trail network or building of new trails. There is a very simple solution to those complainers, ride elsewhere. All your complaining and blaming is going nowhere, instead of being reactive, be proactive, use common sense, don't be self satisfying, do what's good for the majority, not the minority. The trails that were closed that started this whole debate, were used by few, but the damage caused was far beyond other trails that are used by many.
    I'm not against building new trails, even if they are illegal, but build them right, how many of you actually rode the trails that were closed?, they weren't much of a trail, as they were a skid mark down the fall line. I'm sure I'll get flamed and told I don't know what I'm talking about or my riding ability sucks, etc, I just see what I see and know what I know.

  75. #75
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    Big Bear...Out of bounds trails closed

    I do think that a bit of deference to the local riders is in order. Some of us only get up there a handful of times a year, but people like Jeff ride there 100 times in the same span...
    Last edited by kragu; 09-29-2013 at 11:28 AM.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by scvkurt03 View Post
    I do think that a bit of deference to the local riders is in order. Some of us only get up there a handful of times a year, but people like Jeff ride there 100 times in the same span...
    I have no doubt that Jeff is a far better rider than I...I just want people to stop using the eroded fall line excuse. Many of the closed trails did NOT fit this description, and some that were incorporated into the system definitely are erosion prone. There is still fun to be had up there...I am just frustrated that the fun (outside of snow summit) is now significantly less than before, and every time I to up there, more evidence of more neutering, sanitization, etc, is evident.

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    Sirsam84, which trails are you talking about that were closed, that were "Un fall line" trails? I'm not claiming I know everything about every trail up here, but the trails that were closed, that I'm aware of, were those trails that drop out on Town trail and the other that drops out near the Marine campground.
    Plumbers will be restored once the tree clearing is done, Upper fall line and Pirates are not what they used to be, hopefully they will be restored also.
    BTW, I did ride the SS side of the mountain this morning, Clubveiw, 2N10, all of Skyline, then Pineknot trail. Skyline is starting to piss me off, it is probably the worse built "professionally" built trail I've ever ridden, there is no flow heading east to west, especially after Grandveiw, Pineknot has been re-routed near the bottom, which imo, is way better than before and certainly done better than Skyline, but I can't complain much because at least we have some new trails to go with the old, maybe the problems I see with Skyline can be fixed someday.

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    Which one is Plumbers? I know that Colin Bailey, Sweepers, and all the stuff that dropped onto towne trail is fall line type stuff, but I maintain that all of those with possibly one exception, are less loose and erosion prone than the top part of Old National, which is now a system trail.

    Upper fall line (cables to some), what I called upper Dickies (hooked into dickies), Sinners, Ho Chi Minh were all not erosion prone, steep straight down lines. I thought they were system trails when I first rode them, and without several of them, going west off the lift is almost pointless now, unless you want a long fireroad descent.

    Skyline is a big part of what pisses me off about this...we got a trail that , while well built and with good views, completely lacks flow. This is the trade off for the closures (unless it truly took the FS 15 yrs to close those trails down). It is ridiculous that for most of skyline on the downhills, you had to pedal to maintain any decent speed. This is a direct consequence of the FS slapping max grade allowances on the builders and having to build within a certain distance of the fireroad.

    As to pineknot, I really liked the old roll in to the fast little canyon bottom section right before the punchy climb and cabin intersection...glad to know that others do prefer the reroute...at least it ain't lemons for everyone!

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    Big Bear...Out of bounds trails closed

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane Jeff View Post
    BTW, I did ride the SS side of the mountain this morning, Clubveiw, 2N10, all of Skyline, then Pineknot trail. Skyline is starting to piss me off, it is probably the worse built "professionally" built trail I've ever ridden, there is no flow heading east to west, especially after Grandveiw, Pineknot has been re-routed near the bottom, which imo, is way better than before and certainly done better than Skyline, but I can't complain much because at least we have some new trails to go with the old, maybe the problems I see with Skyline can be fixed someday.
    What's wrong with skyline? Headed up there next weekend to check it out. Last trip they were doing work on it still.

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    No flow whatsoever...looks really nice, and views are incredible, so it is worth it to ride, but it feels like all of the fun factors have been surgically excised from it. Very little elevation change, USFS limitations on maximum grade, limitations on how far from the fireroad it can be all add up to a trail that is pretty much flat...if that is your thing, then great.

    Pineknot is still the best XC trail up there IMHO.

    I hope that upper fall line and pirates are restored, but I not holding my breath. I heard that the USFS claimed that Pirates was "supposed" to be a fire break on original maps. Even if it is restored, they took out the fun little st That paralleled the fireroad to the start of Fern....

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    I don't know which trail you call "sinners", I'm sure I've ridden it, just never heard of that trail name. Ho Chi mihn is still open, rode it last week, haven't been on Upper Dickies for a while. Plumbers runs east from where Pirates hits 2N10 and exits just up from Fern trail, on the south side of 2N10.
    The problem with Skyline is, while some parts are awesome, but as a trail in whole, it, imo, was poorly designed, fast sections leading into tight corners, causing you to skid, no flow in the western part of the trail, area's where they thought more about how to get to the next boulder field instead of working the flow of the mountain, no thought what so ever in regards to soil type I mean you come around some corners and you face a steep, loose decomposed granite climb, which are nearly impossible to clear. It's kinda funny, some sections are great coming from one direction, but not the other, the problem is, you run into those, back to back, no matter which direction your going, most of the problems are between Grandveiw and Forest Dream sections of the trail. I don't want to complain, just hope that enough people feel the same and those sections could be re-worked in the future, since this trail has tons of potential has was highly anticipated by myself and the rest of the local riders.

  82. #82
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    HJ, I appreciate you trying to give us some clarity, but I feel like the FS isn't giving you much to work with.

    IMHO, quite a bit of Plummer's (Plumber's? IDK, I just know it starts with a "P" and was named after the chap that built much of it) wasn't much more than a swerving skid down the side of the hill that was no better than Fall Line or any number of other trails in that area of the hill. Personally, I liked Fall Line more. I don't think the lower section of Cabin 89 was as poorly made as Plummer's either. OTOH, the entrance to Cabin 89 is a section that could use a re-route more than the bottom of it, no?

    To the person that isn't sure if they have ridden Plummer's, unless it is no longer that way, you probably haven't since the entrance is marked pretty conspicuously :~) It's on the east side of the 2N10 climb over near what used to be Fall Line, etc.

    As for the lower section of 1E01 (Pineknot), does the section that has been re-routed, include the fast section through the dry creek bed just before the short climb out? That was a hoot, but I could see where that could be environmentally sensitive, but no more so than say . . . . Plantation Trail.

    As for the rubble infested portion that leads to Aspen Glen, I hope that is history too :~) Can't say I ever saw the value added from that piece of work.

    The FS can pretty much do what they want, and have demonstrated they don't really need to explain or justify much of anything they do. But if they are going to try to explain what's going on, it would be nice if it made sense. So far, it really doesn't make sense as it has been explained here, and it's inconsistent at best. And though I'm not a local, the National Forest belongs to all of the people regardless of how close I live to it. Even if I have no influence on matters, I feel I'm entitled to have an opinion on the matter just like anyone else. I'd like to be able to make sense of all of this, but my world isn't going to crash if I can't.

    I do appreciate and respect the time and effort spent building and maintaining the trails in Big Bear, just like I would expect others to appreciate the time and effort I have invested into the trails close to where I live. There are still a lot of excellent trails to ride there if you take the time to find them. And, I think that if there is a blessing in all that has changed recently, since so many have now chosen to spend their time riding on SS property, the impact on the surrounding trails will be far less than it was previously.

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    Well the FS can and does do pretty much what they want to do, I guess that goes with being in charge.
    I agree with you on Plumbers and the entrance of Cabin 89, Plumbers is going to be re-routed, basically an extension of the Skyline trail, Cabin 89?, haven't heard of any plans on that one.
    The new section of 1E01 totally eliminates the mostly washed out, sometimes stream crossing section of the trail. The new section goes straight from where it used to turn right down into the stream crossing. Now it climbs a bit, has some twists and turns, a few bermed corners and drops out at the top of Aspen Glen day use area. The trail was very nicely done( shows that the FS knows how to build trails).

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    Quote Originally Posted by sirsam84 View Post
    No flow whatsoever...looks really nice, and views are incredible, so it is worth it to ride, but it feels like all of the fun factors have been surgically excised from it. Very little elevation change, USFS limitations on maximum grade, limitations on how far from the fireroad it can be all add up to a trail that is pretty much flat...if that is your thing, then great.

    Pineknot is still the best XC trail up there IMHO.

    I hope that upper fall line and pirates are restored, but I not holding my breath. I heard that the USFS claimed that Pirates was "supposed" to be a fire break on original maps. Even if it is restored, they took out the fun little st That paralleled the fireroad to the start of Fern....
    Sounds good. I will check it out for the experience but PineKnot is the last trail I am going to hit right before checking into the hotel at the end of the trail and then Oktoberfest. Gonna be a good weekend.

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    Good assessment of Skyline issues by Hurricane Jeff! Sinners is the ST that took off of Coyote Fireroad right before the junction with Knickerbocker fireroad (as it is now called), and dropped down to the section of hike a bike that used to feed the steep loose trails that dropped to Towne. Sinners was not steep but nice grade to keep some speed and had a nice rock garden section and a few little stump and log jumps.

    I also agree that it ain't the end of the world and that summit is a HUGE plus for all, but I wish the FS would be less autocratic, as the forest belongs to taxpayers...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sirsam84 View Post
    No flow whatsoever...looks really nice, and views are incredible, so it is worth it to ride, but it feels like all of the fun factors have been surgically excised from it. Very little elevation change, USFS limitations on maximum grade, limitations on how far from the fireroad it can be all add up to a trail that is pretty much flat...if that is your thing, then great.

    Pineknot is still the best XC trail up there IMHO.

    I hope that upper fall line and pirates are restored, but I not holding my breath. I heard that the USFS claimed that Pirates was "supposed" to be a fire break on original maps. Even if it is restored, they took out the fun little st That paralleled the fireroad to the start of Fern....
    Shoulda taken your advice. That trail sucked. I woulda ridden 2N10 to Pineknot more if I knew it was going to be that lame.

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