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  1. #151
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    Good thread!
    As an motocross/enduro rider we always emphasize weighting outside peg and elbow high (which not only opens chest but also allows more control when the front end moves up/down on terrain) but the difference is that the m/c pegs don't move. I'm having to learn to 'drop' that outside pedal in a turn whereas I've been positioning my pedals at even height til now. Good stuff on those vids!

  2. #152
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    Here is a very good photo of Heather Irminger training with the great Lee McCormack.



    A lot of things can be gleaned from this photo.

    1) You can be a top level pro but still have great opportunity to improve your handling

    2) It is only when you're willing to be open to learning and allow someone to break down your technique that you can actually learn.

    3) You can practice on the street.

    4) Weight on the outside leg

    5) Torso and navel turned towards the corner

    6) Elbows out

    7) Eyes way out front.

  3. #153
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    oh, i made a silly video this morning of some of the things I'm working on at off camber turns of freakmont older.



    gear:
    29er Schwalbe tires
    dropper post
    flat pedals

    technique:
    elbows out
    look ahead
    torso rotate
    outside leg down with weight on it
    heel down.

    rinse,repeat

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    oh, i made a silly video this morning of my inane techniques.

    perfect form .......... no splash, I give it a 7.89
    Master of Nothing, but dammit if I don't try..............

  5. #155
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    Francois' vid reminds me of this move in 0:43 -

    Never use your face as a brake pad.
    -Jake Watson

  6. #156
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    Francois, just small observations; when running flats you put your foot more forward on the pedal, your toes should be hanging off the front of the pedal a lil more than what it looks like when i paused that video.

    Second, you took the outside/inside line. You can see right when you turn-in, your front tire nearly loses traction as you dive across the trail to the apex. Sometimes its easier to just take the turn midtrack, and hug the inside line and let the bike two wheel drift a lil bit on the exit (as long as you have that outside leg/foot planted) rather than risk the do or die of darting all the way across on the entry.

    Third, sticking your foot out made you look nervous,and at that speed/lean angle did not look necessary. You were carrying some good speed but I'm sure you could of pulled that off with the foot on the pedal.

    Hope that doesn't sound too preachy. I know its easy to armchair quarterback but fwiw some food for thought.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    Francois, just small observations; when running flats you put your foot more forward on the pedal, your toes should be hanging off the front of the pedal a lil more than what it looks like when i paused that video.

    Second, you took the outside/inside line. You can see right when you turn-in, your front tire nearly loses traction as you dive across the trail to the apex. Sometimes its easier to just take the turn midtrack, and hug the inside line and let the bike two wheel drift a lil bit on the exit (as long as you have that outside leg/foot planted) rather than risk the do or die of darting all the way across on the entry.

    Third, sticking your foot out made you look nervous,and at that speed/lean angle did not look necessary. You were carrying some good speed but I'm sure you could of pulled that off with the foot on the pedal.

    Hope that doesn't sound too preachy. I know its easy to armchair quarterback but fwiw some food for thought.
    Awesome!!!

    Yes, I'm just discovering that when I run flats, I should be in the middle of the shoe more when descending. It feels much better, specially when jumping.

    Line selection.... definitely.

    Sticking the foot out. Yes again, I want to keep that on and corner better with the foot on the pedals.

    I'll keep working on it.

    fc

  8. #158
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    Sweet, sounds like you're on the right track. I usually save foot out for the super sketched out/ guaranteed a nasty drift, and/or super tight loose turns. Or if the trail is narrow and off camber and is crumbling away. When in doubt, better to leave it on the pedal and use the right technique to get through it, but have it ready to kick out for emergency maneuvers. In the vid it looked like you were ready for a nasty drift but when it didnt' happen you were kinda just tripod'd and not drifting and it killed your exit. All just my opinion of course

    Nice way to keep the thread goin

    PS the entry to that corner looks tricky, as its fast and then drops down and away.

  9. #159
    CSC
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    oh, i made a silly video this morning of some of the things I'm working on at off camber turns of freakmont older.



    gear:
    29er Schwalbe tires
    dropper post
    flat pedals

    technique:
    elbows out
    look ahead
    torso rotate
    outside leg down with weight on it
    heel down.
    Looks good, here is what I'm seeing:
    What I'm seeing is you sitting in the saddle...stand up some to get all of your weight on that outside pedal. And weight the inside hand...I think you should be able to wave to the camera as you zip by (don't, but it's that much weight, the outside hand is more of a guide)

    Torso rotation should be at the hips...as a previous vid mentioned, "point yer pecker". What I have found is that you can almost feel the back tire want to step out, before it lets go using this technique. You seem to be rotating at your shoulders...just pay attention to your position (hard to when cornering)

    As others have said, keep that foot up unless it's real loose...that dirt looks like a dream sliding surface...get that front wheel drifting!

    Also, lean the bike, not your body...This does 2 things:
    1) faster reaction times because your arms are forced to be bent
    2) your mass forces the tires down into the dirt, not out at an angle.

    I have found that slalom turns down a mild-grade gravel road really help the learning process...within 5 minutes, I was to a point where I was scaring myself, because of how fast I could turn and remain in control...I was slowing myself down, but my tires held. The weighted inside hand allows you to instantly counter any front wheel wanderings that may occur.

    Lookin' good!

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    Francois, just small observations; when running flats you put your foot more forward on the pedal, your toes should be hanging off the front of the pedal a lil more than what it looks like when i paused that video. some food for thought.


    Shoe, Pedal and Foot Placement Tips for Flat Pedals - YouTube

  11. #161
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    Good video, Luc! That just confirms what I've ended up doing when I switched from clips to flats. BTW, "Ether" has been my go-to coffee blend since you made the recommendation. Lol!

    @Francis: It may seem odd in the beginning but you'll get used to flats. As some people have pointed out (and what the video suggests), you may want to move your foot a tad bit forward. It may even rub the front wheel if you're riding a steeper bike, but you will get used to it. The other thing I found was switching to flats definitely improved my overall bike technique, especially when I go airborne. Just be patient and you'll get the hang of it. Now I switch between flats or clips depending on the type of riding I do. Looking good, pare!

    PS: Five-Tens... don't even dork around with any other shoe brand.

  12. #162
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    Damn guys. I want to go there again and session that thing. Lots of nuggets here!
    Last edited by francois; 09-11-2012 at 09:20 AM.

  13. #163
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    Notice how in the photo of Heather how bent her outside leg is? That's getting her center of gravity way low. Francis it looks like your seat is hanging you up. See how Heathers seat isn't between her legs it's on the other side of her body.
    I'm still having fun trying to improve and got a riding partner interested in the techniques.
    Thanks.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron m. View Post
    Good video, Luc! That just confirms what I've ended up doing when I switched from clips to flats
    you are welcome

    Quote Originally Posted by ron m. View Post
    BTW, "Ether" has been my go-to coffee blend since you made the recommendation. Lol!
    had two cups of it this morning before my ride

    Quote Originally Posted by ron m. View Post
    PS: Five-Tens... don't even dork around with any other shoe brand.

  15. #165
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    skiing comparisons?

    Not sure what I'm reaching for here, but I'll put it out as a general question.

    How does carving on skis translate to mountain biking cornering for people? And how can I work to translate what I know from skiing to cornering on a mountain bike?

    Here's where I'm coming from as this thought occurred today:

    I'm an expert tele skiier, can carve hard, comfortable in variable terrain, understand how edges work, etc. Spent a couple winters in a mountain town in my misspent youth getting a solid base, and learned through many days on the hill and in the bc, so earned this level of skill, although it's atrophying.

    I'm doing much more mountain biking now, and realizing how far I am in my cornering skills and comfort in mountain biking from where I am as a skier.

    Now, I'm no slouch on the downhills, but I have to admit that I haven't taken the step to where I have the same, how to put it, *kinesthetic understanding* of how to make the side knobbies carve on a hardpacked trail as I do with skis strapped on. I trust my ski edges to carve as hard as I can lean them over. I don't yet *trust* the knobbies in the same way, although I'm starting to experience the delightful buzz of the tires and accompanying adrenaline when I can line up the tips in this thread and from my clinic.

    Aside from blasting away and taking a few diggers to find the edge, are there any other thoguhts about how I can translate skiing experience more directly to mountain biking?

    Thanks for bearing with a vague question!

  16. #166
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    Not to detract here and with all due respect FC, (That is indeed a good tool to use as far as impacting on a rider to learn to move the body into a better position and lighten up on the downside of the bars.) I see one seriously glaring fault in the image of Heather. In her subconscious move to "lighten the inside" (downward) bar-end she's putting her fingers in harms way. Dislocated fingers happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Here is a very good photo of Heather Irminger training with the great Lee McCormack.



    A lot of things can be gleaned from this photo.
    Last edited by Obi; 09-20-2012 at 01:23 AM.
    You have given out too much Positive Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.
    Awesome!

  17. #167
    CSC
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemikemike View Post
    Not sure what I'm reaching for here, but I'll put it out as a general question.

    How does carving on skis translate to mountain biking cornering for people? And how can I work to translate what I know from skiing to cornering on a mountain bike?

    Here's where I'm coming from as this thought occurred today:

    I'm an expert tele skiier, can carve hard, comfortable in variable terrain, understand how edges work, etc. Spent a couple winters in a mountain town in my misspent youth getting a solid base, and learned through many days on the hill and in the bc, so earned this level of skill, although it's atrophying.

    I'm doing much more mountain biking now, and realizing how far I am in my cornering skills and comfort in mountain biking from where I am as a skier.


    Now, I'm no slouch on the downhills, but I have to admit that I haven't taken the step to where I have the same, how to put it, *kinesthetic understanding* of how to make the side knobbies carve on a hardpacked trail as I do with skis strapped on. I trust my ski edges to carve as hard as I can lean them over. I don't yet *trust* the knobbies in the same way, although I'm starting to experience the delightful buzz of the tires and accompanying adrenaline when I can line up the tips in this thread and from my clinic.

    Aside from blasting away and taking a few diggers to find the edge, are there any other thoguhts about how I can translate skiing experience more directly to mountain biking?

    Thanks for bearing with a vague question!
    In short, yes and no...with a lot of both.

    I ski raced for 4 years, and one technique that was "drilled" into us was body angle. While turning on alpine gear, proper form keeps your knees, hips, and shoulders "stacked" on top of each other, and pointing downhill (for slalom and some GS). When you turn your hips into a ski turn, you don't have as much pressure being transferred to the ski edge. I'm sure you have felt like your skis are turning "late"...this is what causes that phenomenon (sometimes).

    With mountain biking, the angle of applied force is different. By rotating your hips into the turn on a bike, you create a pivot point that your bike "rotates" around. When you start using this technique, you can feel the back tire let go and pivot around your body. While skiing is similar in that your body is the pivot point, you have to keep your body pointed down the hill. Not so with mountain biking.
    EDIT: mountain biking is not always downhill. Of course leaning downhill helps in those circumstances. Pointing your hips into the turn will help your legs steer the bike through the turn...

    The similar techniques are: looking where you want to go with your eyes, and keeping a vertical upper-body position, while you angle your bike and legs (or skis and legs).

    The difference, again, is your hip position...keep them still on skis, turn them on the bike.

    With the trust issue...it takes loosing control. Again, when skiing, I learned that I had to ski even more aggressively on the ice to make my edges hold. But the type of ski makes a big difference. The same goes for bike tires. Some let go unpredictably, others can slide with as much control as if they were still hooked up. I would suggest you learn where the "release point" is for your tires, and that usually takes falling a few times (or coming pretty darn close!). Just like with skiing, falling helps you learn what you are doing right and what you are doing wrong.

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSC View Post
    In short, yes and no...with a lot of both.

    I ski raced for 4 years, and one technique that was "drilled" into us was body angle. While turning on alpine gear, proper form keeps your knees, hips, and shoulders "stacked" on top of each other, and pointing downhill (for slalom and some GS). When you turn your hips into a ski turn, you don't have as much pressure being transferred to the ski edge. I'm sure you have felt like your skis are turning "late"...this is what causes that phenomenon (sometimes).

    With mountain biking, the angle of applied force is different. By rotating your hips into the turn on a bike, you create a pivot point that your bike "rotates" around. When you start using this technique, you can feel the back tire let go and pivot around your body. While skiing is similar in that your body is the pivot point, you have to keep your body pointed down the hill. Not so with mountain biking.
    EDIT: mountain biking is not always downhill. Of course leaning downhill helps in those circumstances. Pointing your hips into the turn will help your legs steer the bike through the turn...

    The similar techniques are: looking where you want to go with your eyes, and keeping a vertical upper-body position, while you angle your bike and legs (or skis and legs).

    The difference, again, is your hip position...keep them still on skis, turn them on the bike.

    With the trust issue...it takes loosing control. Again, when skiing, I learned that I had to ski even more aggressively on the ice to make my edges hold. But the type of ski makes a big difference. The same goes for bike tires. Some let go unpredictably, others can slide with as much control as if they were still hooked up. I would suggest you learn where the "release point" is for your tires, and that usually takes falling a few times (or coming pretty darn close!). Just like with skiing, falling helps you learn what you are doing right and what you are doing wrong.
    Yes, this all rings true. I think a key difference is the hip orientation. Counter-rotating in skiing to keep belly button pointed down hill vs pointing the pecker on a bike.

    Whether I sack up to get out there and crash is another story. I love a good two wheel drift, but only when it's small and manageable. Can't yet order those up on demand...

    Thanks for the thoughts.

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemikemike View Post
    Yes, this all rings true. I think a key difference is the hip orientation. Counter-rotating in skiing to keep belly button pointed down hill vs pointing the pecker on a bike.

    Whether I sack up to get out there and crash is another story. I love a good two wheel drift, but only when it's small and manageable. Can't yet order those up on demand...

    Thanks for the thoughts.
    Best practice surface I have come across: flat, packed gravel or dirt road. Speed and turn angle is easily controlled. Just pull slalom turns at 15-20 mph, and apply the techniques that have been bounced around here: hips turned, pressure the inside hand, and keep knees and elbows bent. You will either quickly learn your tires' limits, or will find that your tires will hold at speeds faster than you are comfortable at. Either way, you can quickly gain information about your equipment w/o going "balls to the wall" and railing some gnarly single-track corner at 30 mph and either chickening out and locking up or eating dirt.

    Happy Riding!

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Step 1:

    Ride with one of these guys. Observe. Ask questions.

    Drink beer.

    Weed, Hauer, Massey.
    The guy in the red shirt passed my on a practice run. He disappeared after one turn. Three turns later he was on the side cheering me on like he had been waiting for a minute or two. It was nice of him to cheer on the old slow guy stopping in all the turns.

  21. #171
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    Your question is far from vague. For those who have not skied or boarded at all it might be difficult to relate to though they can likely visualize skiing. Are you reaching for any of these parallels??
    Keep the head level to the horizon.
    Keep the eyes looking near, far, near, far, near,farnearfarnear, find horizon, near, far...
    Breathe. Use more breath, deeper slower while carving on bike or boards. Exhale at the apex/peak of the most energized moments of the turn.
    Keep the hands low and in front. Outside hand advances.
    Quiet, supple upper body. Awake abs, very active psosas muscle...
    As evenly as possible distribute edge gripping forces via the angulation of the pelvis/femur, knee, ankle, foot. "Lean" the lower extremities a lot.
    Focus weight on the big toe mound and around the ball of the foot/feet.
    Be like a cat, or other graceful animal of your choice.

    Visualize you are carving on skis. Soak up the terrain. Happy cornering and carving and controlled drifting!

  22. #172
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    Things are progressing. I now know enough to say that this guy knows what he's doing.

    Ashes to Dust with Emanuel Pombo | Mountain Bike Review



    Emanuel broke his back in 2010 at the World Cup race in Val di Sol. His local trail on an island in Portugal burned down last year. This video is how nature and the body can heal and recover from adversity.

    fc

  23. #173
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    Nice riding by Emanuel, but if you want to see really amazing skills check out this Kovarik video - Video: Chris Kovarik - Summer of Summit - The Dirt Chronicles - Pinkbike

  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurp View Post
    Nice riding by Emanuel, but if you want to see really amazing skills check out this Kovarik video - Video: Chris Kovarik - Summer of Summit - The Dirt Chronicles - Pinkbike
    Niiiiice. And here's how to handle the wet. Hans Dampf tires!

    Shaperideshoot’s Gaėtan Rey and Vincent Tupin | Mountain Bike Review

    fc

  25. #175
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Niiiiice. And here's how to handle the wet. Hans Dampf tires!

    Shaperideshoot’s Gaėtan Rey and Vincent Tupin | Mountain Bike Review

    fc
    Could someone describe the how and why for the little sideways counter-steer slide that they do before entering a turn? I've seen it done before and would like to learn it for scrubbing off speed, apparently?

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