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  1. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Duke View Post
    I realize this isn't the subject of this thread, per se, but this reminded me of the Dodge Ram commercial that aired during the Superbowl. The one with snippets of MLK's speech AGAINST materialism. Just terrible that they'd use his words in an ad for $40-60k...pickup trucks.

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    Unfortunately we've organized ourselves to idealize increasing levels of production and consumption.

  2. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    Unfortunately we've organized ourselves to idealize increasing levels of production and consumption.
    As a side effect we got increased life span and health, freedom to travel, unprecedented access to knowledge anytime and anywhere, etc. etc.
    Is production and consumption really so bad?

  3. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    Unfortunately we've organized ourselves to idealize increasing levels of production and consumption.
    i like the jeep ad. Very succinct.
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  4. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    As a side effect we got increased life span and health, freedom to travel, unprecedented access to knowledge anytime and anywhere, etc. etc.
    Is production and consumption really so bad?
    Believe me, I'm a card carrying MBA toting capitalist. But, the question is: when is enough, enough? And are cheap plastic goods really improving our lives at this point in our evolution. The issue with the current return on capital model, especially as it relates to public markets, is it's never enough. The dangerous side effects are global warming, pollution, and destruction to the planet that may prove to be catastrophic. The current system of free market capitalism has been a successful experiment but is coming to an end, things change and now we have to modify it. Will be interesting to see how things evolve.

  5. #705
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    As a side effect we got increased life span and health, freedom to travel, unprecedented access to knowledge anytime and anywhere, etc. etc.
    Is production and consumption really so bad?

    This is very interesting in the context of lifespan...

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/06/healt...ana/index.html

    In the US, it seems we are spending trillions of dollars trying to make folks live longer. That is good. But perhaps there are other ways as well.
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  6. #706
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    This is very interesting in the context of lifespan...

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/06/healt...ana/index.html

    In the US, it seems we are spending trillions of dollars trying to make folks live longer. That is good. But perhaps there are other ways as well.
    There's a Blue Zone here in the US too. Interesting what they attribute it to.

    https://bluezones.com/exploration/lo...da-california/

    1. Strong social ties.
    2. A little physical labor.
    3. Mainly vegetarian diet.

  7. #707
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    There's a Blue Zone here in the US too. Interesting what they attribute it to.

    https://bluezones.com/exploration/lo...da-california/

    1. Strong social ties.
    2. A little physical labor.
    3. Mainly vegetarian diet.
    Thank you!!

    I see the tie in with mountain biking for sure. Even a little beer is good as long as it is in a very social setting.

    I see the wisdom of bocce ball now. It seems the folks that play that in Italy are average age of 90 yrs old.
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  8. #708
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Thank you!!

    I see the tie in with mountain biking for sure. Even a little beer is good as long as it is in a very social setting.

    I see the wisdom of bocce ball now. It seems the folks that play that in Italy are average age of 90 yrs old.
    I think what you're doing with group rides and a community of mountain bikers is going a long, long way in benefiting people!

  9. #709
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitek View Post
    I was on Caltrain a couple Fridays ago and there were two guys drinking and talking about how to build a great engineering group at a startup. It started like a buzzword compilation, but as we neared 4th and King, the ratio of slurred expletives and affirmations to startup buzzwords approached 1:1... I couldn't make sense of it anymore, except that one guy was really upset. I shoulda recorded it...
    Yet another thing that drives me nuts about the bay area. Everyone with a whole 3 years of experience in having a real career thinks they know how to run a functional company. Most startups I see end up being mis-managed to the point where they become zombies corporations that are completely useless and should be looted and shiv'd.

  10. #710
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    As a side effect we got increased life span and health, freedom to travel, unprecedented access to knowledge anytime and anywhere, etc. etc.
    Is production and consumption really so bad?
    It's not bad when the FULL COSTS to our HEALTH, TIME, and ENVIRONMENT are fully accounted for - but it's not.

    TIME is now a more interesting one with the rise of social media and addictive behaviors associated with it. FREE is not free when you account the above.

    Now it's time for me to get off the forum.

  11. #711
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    There's a Blue Zone here in the US too. Interesting what they attribute it to.

    https://bluezones.com/exploration/lo...da-california/

    1. Strong social ties.
    2. A little physical labor.
    3. Mainly vegetarian diet.

    That's some minor optimizations.

    One has to be some serious negative nancy not to admit that we are objectively better off in modern "consumerist" society that we had been in primitive ones.

    I prefer not to die from trivial infections and be able to have access to the entirety of accumulated knowledge and art from a small device in my pocket, as well as being able to travel vast distances in comfort previously reserved to kings and tyrants for a price of few hours of my labor.
    Growing chaos of social media is a trivial price to pay for those benefit.

    And back to the topic of this thread - I hope that will also enable me to be less tied to my work and my place to live. Though I quite like it around here for now.

  12. #712
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    Rainfall map of King County. Impressive differences as you head east and get near mountains!

    https://your.kingcounty.gov/dnrp/lib...tation-map.pdf

    Liquefaction when the big one comes. Issaquah is hosed.
    http://your.kingcounty.gov/dnrp/libr...hazard-map.pdf

    There was another map of flooding if Ranier's glacier melts due to volcanic activity, but I think I might be digging too deep...

  13. #713
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    SF isn't exactly a bundle of joy in that way either.

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...299999999&z=13

  14. #714
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    Quote Originally Posted by alxrmrs View Post
    SF isn't exactly a bundle of joy in that way either.

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...299999999&z=13
    Peninsula, South Bay and near East Bay map:
    https://planning.smcgov.org/sites/pl...e_Liq_Shak.pdf

    I live in the low risk zone, just barely. Just a reminder to SFBA residents leaving that earthquake risk needs to be considered to some degree in the NW as well.

    There is also some risk of volcanic mudflows in specific areas. Renton isn't shown on this map, but it could be affected. The Cascades volcanos have been mostly silent the past century, doesn't mean it will always be that way.
    https://www.usgs.gov/media/images/mt...har-hazard-map

  15. #715
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    NOT leaving Las Vegas

    Want to leave Bay Area. Where to go?-screen-shot-2018-02-16-9.05.29-am.jpg

    "Rent a moving truck from Las Vegas to San Jose and you'll pay about $100. In the opposite direction, the same truck will cost you 16 times that, or nearly $2,000."

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  16. #716
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    NOT leaving Las Vegas

    Click image for larger version. 

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    "Rent a moving truck from Las Vegas to San Jose and you'll pay about $100. In the opposite direction, the same truck will cost you 16 times that, or nearly $2,000."

    SF Gate today https://www.sfgate.com/
    Hmm, seems like a good opportunity for an enterprising individual to rent a truck in Vegas and offer it in San Jose for $1500!

  17. #717
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    I'm back from Seattle.

    First, SEATAC is big and unfortunately ALL the rental cars are offsite. And oversize luggage, like my skis, can't be dropped off with your regular luggage. Makes me miss the automated ski racks in Denver airport. It's been probably a hundred or so flights since I missed a plane, but SEATAC did me in on the return.

    Seattle is the most similar to SF among the cities in my comparison (Denver, PDX, and SEA... and the Gorge, sort of). From the hill tops, itís gorgeous green blue and grey. Out across the water are the snow capped Olympic mountains. Stunning. The bridges, ferries, and islands remind me a bit of Istanbul. Heroin needles on the sidewalk, itís just like home!

    Besides downtown and Ballard, we also visited Kirkland, which btw is not just a Costco house brand, Bellevue, Renton, Issaquah, and Sammamish. Kirkland downtown was fun. There's a indoor miniature golf bar, though I couldn't go in because I have a 4 year old. Hmm, such a place in PDX would find a way to make it work. Of the locations visited, only Renton is affordable, but at least where we were, it was either dumpy or uninteresting. Bellevue might as well be the SF peninsula. I'd take a job there, but wouldn't want to live there. Issaquah, at least the old part, seems just right for us, but Issaquah and Sammamish are developing massively with identical, closely spaced condos and ticky tacky boxy track homes. I havenít seen anything like it since the mid 2000s in San Diego County, when, fueled by stupid easy money, huge developments were cut and pasted and sold at exorbitant prices throughout the desert. You may know what Iím talking about; big boxy 4 and 5 bedroom homes with paved yards the size of a closet, the monotony broken only by Panera Breads or Starbucks. Now imagine the same thing, but in the woods. It seems an affront to such a beautiful landscape.

    If you jump on 90 east, you can escape the sprawl, at least for another decade or two ó Preston, North Bend, and Snoqualmie arenít really that much further out, yet remain serene.

    Now I need to mention Duthie. Duthie is a mountain bike park, not a bike park. I have visited many bikes parks, but no mountain bike parks. I rode Valmont and Ruby Hill on my BMX. You could ride Duthie on a DJ with the right tires, but the mid travel Evil I rented was the right choice (and Evil is based just down the road). Imagine dense trees, lots of mud and tree roots, man made wooden features, and terrain crammed full of berms and trails often separated by mere feet. Many ride down, walk up trails. The dense trees make it gloomy, but also keep out the weather, which means you can ride in a downpour. And I did. Iíve never come away from a ride so absolutely filthy. Unlike Oregon, the mud wasn't peanut butter, it was thin and watery with lots of pine needles. I had meant to ride another trail system the 2nd day, but my legs were spent and it was very windy, so I just rode Duthie again more slowly. The wind storm had me dodging fallen trees and derailleur eating branches. By then I was doing drops and jumps bigger than Iíd ever attempted. You can get good, very fast in a place like this. The drop trail, which filled me with terror on our first encounter on Friday, seemed like kid stuff as I rode out on Saturday. When was the last time 24 hours so wisened me? Last I can remember is watching a couple pacing the maternity ward, waiting for the contractions to quicken, only hours after my son was born, and thinking, "noobs!" Truly, itís a big confidence boost when the features just keep coming back to back, bigger and bigger, and you have faith in the builders. Duthie ainít no illegal SF bay area dig where you pedal a bunch between the fun bits and then either stop and double check each feature's design and integrity or pray and hope it works out. I didnít have to dodge any broken bottles, either. Duthie, more than anything else, impressed on me that SFBA riding is a tragedy: pedaling your carbon bikes up fire roads and descending rutted fall line garbage is a crime, like a Ferrari out on a gravel road. And we shrug our shoulders that mumble itís the best we can do.
    How the Seattle area became a must-ride MTB locale - Mtbr.com
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    Note, in another subforum, I was told to skip Seattle and ride Galbraith in Bellingham. That it's much better and less crowded. But I discussed it with the wife. I wanted to go. She didn't. We compromised and didn't go. We visited B-ham in 2010 before I'd been on anything but an XC bike. It was cool and a photo of Boundary Bay Brewing hangs in our 2nd bedroom, but I'd never get a city girl like my wife to live there.

    I skiied the Summit at Snoqualmie and Alpental. Summit is very wide but very short, somewhat like Kirkwood. It was crowded with beginners on Presidentís day (including the one I sired). The snow was fresh but very heavy so tree skiing was like doing squats with a refrigerator on your back. Around 1pm I could no longer take the crowds or my son's whining and escaped to Alpental. Alpental is two lifts to the summit with no easy way down. My kind of place. Itís 10 degrees colder and exposed to the wind, frightening away the half hearted. With 1000 or 2000 feet of elevation over the Summit, the snow was much better... Really, just perfect on the top half. Homewood on a good day, I thought, if the only ways down were black diamond moguls or double black rocks and trees.

    Weather. SEA was noticeably colder, but not as cold as Colorado. I wore boots, corduroy pants (which are warmer than jeans), a t-shirt and my ski jacket the whole trip. No sweater or hat, except at the top of Alpental. Mind you, I have shoulder length hair, which is like a hat that doesnít easily come off. The rain came and went and was mostly drizzle. We got one super windy day, and one clear day. Our last day was the coldest of the year. For forecasts, do yourself a favor and use darksky, which shows you when itíll actually rain during the day. If you look at a weather.com or something, you see a 10 day forecast thatís all rain. In general, I am told, the weather is not all that much different from Portland except that Seattle has Puget Sound to temper the weather extremes. It snowed twice, but didnít stick. The King County precipitation map I shared earlier is an oversimplification; I was told the north gets more constant drizzle, whereas the south gets more sporadic downpours. Driving around, I couldn't really tell the difference except by the amount of moss on the trees.

    Size. I was able to drive from Duthie to University of Washington, north of downtown, in 35 minutes on Monday night (a holiday). Regardless of how much worse traffic has gotten in the past decade, you simply couldnít get between Santa Cruz and SF in even half that time. It was 50 minutes from Bellevue to skiing. The destinations are just closer together than in the SFBA.

    Affordability. If you want cheap housing, it appears you must head south of SeaTac or north somewhere like Lynnwood or Bothell and then likely face awful commutes. Friday and Tuesday morning I checked the local news. North-south routes and bridges are the most popular places for Seattleites to idle their cars.

    Driving. I didn't encounter much aggression on the road and people drove reasonably fast, in contrast to Portland where just enough folks are in no hurry at all, cause a jam at most hours, and Denver, where I'd be truckin' 75 and, instead of a BMW 3 series, there'd be a Subaru weaving 3 feet behind my rear bumper.

    People. I had generally good interactions. I didn't let anyone on the chair lift at Snoqualmie go without an attempt at conversation, and all but two were friendly. It wasn't quite like Portland, where I've had hour long conversations with strangers (other than one rider at Duthie, who was visiting from Yakima), or the Gorge, where you might get invited to someone's house after five minutes. My wife, on the other hand, had some down right weird passive aggressive situations and was the recipient of the only parenting lecture on the trip.

    Well, thatís it, all three cities visited. My overall reactions? For those on the thread looking to escape congestion, be close to mountain biking, and live more affordablyÖ I think you could perhaps make your way in parts of any of these cities. Each of them come with their own tradeoffs.

    If your means are modest, these major cities have all become too expensive to take your money and blindly run. If you are just barely treading water financially, by all means, go now before it gets even worse.

    If youíre a tech worker with bags of money, go right ahead and jump into Bellevue.

    As a not-so-professional professional, Seattle seems like the easiest transition. I could skip out from work early to get in some laps at Duthie or night ski. As of 2018, though, Seattle is too expensive for me to pack my bags tomorrow, but I can imagine scenarios, such as taking in an aging parent and needing a 4 bedroom, which would be impossible in the SFBA yet still within reason there.

    But right now, there aren't big bills, dwindling bank accounts, a killer commute, insufferable boss, or terrible school to force my hand-- only the fear that in 10 or 15 years my knees will be too beat up to enjoy the Valmonts and Duthies, or that easy money will make these cities even more unaffordable. But fear does not drive good decision making. Act out of love. Be patient.

    Now the sound of patio furniture sliding around outside and the gate swinging open and shut tells me wind surfing season has arrived early in San Mateo, so for now my griping and traveling comes to a close. Time to chase the wind.

    Good luck.

  18. #718
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    Nice summary. To me, the best part of living in Seattle is the easy access to riding especially in the Issaquah/Sammamish area along with easy access to skiing and getting into the city. I've never lived in a place that offered so much singletrack accessible by bike or within 15 minutes by car.
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  19. #719
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    Damn fitek! So well written and insightful
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  20. #720
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
    Nice summary. To me, the best part of living in Seattle is the easy access to riding especially in the Issaquah/Sammamish area along with easy access to skiing and getting into the city. I've never lived in a place that offered so much singletrack accessible by bike or within 15 minutes by car.
    Thatís my thoughts on where we live in the Denver metro. Plenty of biking available nearby and a lot of support from the community.
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  21. #721
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitek View Post
    I'm back from Seattle.

    First, SEATAC is big and unfortunately ALL the rental cars are offsite. And oversize luggage, like my skis, can't be dropped off with your regular luggage. Makes me miss the automated ski racks in Denver airport. It's been probably a hundred or so flights since I missed a plane, but SEATAC did me in on the return....
    Take the train if you have the time.
    It's a gorgeous train ride.


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  22. #722
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    Flights to Seattle last weekend of April booked. Will stop in Bellingham I hope! Let ya know how that goes...

    In the mean time:
    - fun windsurf session earlier this week-- man, the views from the bay are amazing
    - packages stolen off our street again (https://ring.com/share/6525123068676722175)
    - spent a year getting on a music teacher's schedule and three months in he moved away Tuesday because you, know, a music teacher can't afford to live here
    - got an abandoned car towed from in front of our place
    - want to strangle the owner of a lifted Tacoma with a hole in the exhaust that idles in front of my house every morning (I dont think it runs well unless he warms it up)
    - US News ranked CA last in quality of life air quality is one of the reasons (thinking of you Stripes) https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ort/384853002/

  23. #723
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitek View Post
    - packages stolen off our street again (https://ring.com/share/6525123068676722175)
    - spent a year getting on a music teacher's schedule and three months in he moved away Tuesday because you, know, a music teacher can't afford to live here
    - want to strangle the owner of a lifted Tacoma with a hole in the exhaust that idles in front of my house every morning (I dont think it runs well unless he warms it up)
    Where do you live? Packages being stolen is rampant in SF. Luckily my apartment has a secure mailbox area. My friend in the Marina had his METAL apartment mailbox ripped open with a crowbar about 3 times. Apparently the guy was doing it for shits and giggles and not actually stealing mail. The solution was to put the mailboxes inside the apartment landing and now the mailman needs a key.

    I also have some ass-hat foreign rich kid revving his BMW Alpina M3/B3 around the neighborhood at 1AM every day. Presumably this is to patch up his ego because he's 30 and jobless and the only reason he is in America is because daddy bought some community college a new library so he can get a student visa. He's also probably jealous of the other kid in the neighborhood who got the same deal but owns a lambo instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alxrmrs View Post
    Where do you live? Packages being stolen is rampant in SF. Luckily my apartment has a secure mailbox area. My friend in the Marina had his METAL apartment mailbox ripped open with a crowbar about 3 times. Apparently the guy was doing it for shits and giggles and not actually stealing mail. The solution was to put the mailboxes inside the apartment landing and now the mailman needs a key.

    I also have some ass-hat foreign rich kid revving his BMW Alpina M3/B3 around the neighborhood at 1AM every day. Presumably this is to patch up his ego because he's 30 and jobless and the only reason he is in America is because daddy bought some community college a new library so he can get a student visa. He's also probably jealous of the other kid in the neighborhood who got the same deal but owns a lambo instead.
    Packages being stolen is rampant in San Jose too (at least when I left). One of our neighbors even had her shoes (!!) stoeln off her front porch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitek View Post
    Flights to Seattle last weekend of April booked. Will stop in Bellingham I hope! Let ya know how that goes...

    In the mean time:
    - fun windsurf session earlier this week-- man, the views from the bay are amazing
    - packages stolen off our street again (https://ring.com/share/6525123068676722175)
    - spent a year getting on a music teacher's schedule and three months in he moved away Tuesday because you, know, a music teacher can't afford to live here
    - got an abandoned car towed from in front of our place
    - want to strangle the owner of a lifted Tacoma with a hole in the exhaust that idles in front of my house every morning (I dont think it runs well unless he warms it up)
    - US News ranked CA last in quality of life air quality is one of the reasons (thinking of you Stripes) https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ort/384853002/
    If I did sea sports, I would have been very happy staying in California. Prior to living in California, I did whitewater kayaking, and there wasn't much of it in the Bay Area.

    You know, it was nice to go out and ride the trails by my house, and not have to worry about my lungs hurting or feeling like I could barely pedal because I couldn't breathe. It's a nice change, and I'm very thankful I have it. And even be able to get in the car and sing with the radio (no one else's ears were harmed.. I was by myself). That's something I couldn't do in the Bay Area the past few years I was there. And that sucks.

    The last 5 years I was in the Bay Area, the two chiropractors (yes, chiros!) moved because they couldn't afford to live in the Bay Area. Closed up practices and moved. So I have no idea how a music teacher afforded to live there.

    Is Seattle your main possibility now?
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  26. #726
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    My good buddy, Scaglione just left for Boise, Idaho.

    Just sold his modest SJ home for $1.5 million, retired 7 years early and had a new house built there for peanuts.

    Born and raised here and loved it. Opportunity.
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    ...

  28. #728
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    848 square feet in Sunnyvale, sold in 2 days.

    Price?

    Want to leave Bay Area. Where to go?-sjm-l-sunnyvale-0301-1.jpg

    You know it hurts when the steeep monthly cost is not the mortgage. It's the property tax.
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    Smile

    To play devils advocate a bit, all the things mentioned, packages being stolen, kid revving up his engine, etc, etc can happen anywhere at anytime. It might appear more prevalent here but that might just be b/c there are more people living here and the population is more concentrated as well. I go to NYC once a year and that schmidt goes on ALL night long as well as the sirens. Literally.

    Stripes, why can't you sing in the car in the Bay Area. It's your right to do so. You can sing in a car anywhere in this Country. I've never heard of Bay Areans telling people they can't sing in the car as it bothers them. Not once ever so sing away!! Maybe I'm missing something.

    We're all different. I personally don't want to be stuck inside 4 months outta the year b/c it's either so dang cold out it hurts to breathe or it's so damn hot you can't breathe. Yes, I'm financially set here no problem and I do understand it's super expensive to start here so that makes a huge impact on living here as opposed to somewhere else that might be more affordable and provide a better lifestyle w/ less pressures.

    I like riding year round as most of us do so that plays a big role in staying here as well.

    Ok, that's all. Carry on.

  30. #730
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    848 square feet in Sunnyvale, sold in 2 days.

    Price?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    You know it hurts when the steeep monthly cost is not the mortgage. It's the property tax.
    True, but how many other places can people become millionaires by simply owning a house?

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    I grew up on the east coast and have heard variations of the same complaints about areas there too, especially the DC area. What an expensive mess north eastern Virginia is!

    But back east they seem to have the advantage of a much bigger variety to choose from of cities and towns that exist outside the sprawl of megacities.

  32. #732
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    True, but how many other places can people become millionaires by simply owning a house?
    It is an interesting demographic now where you can be rich but only if you leave.

    That's on of the audiences of this thread for sure, the cash out audience.

    If one stays, the house is merely a security blanket and a burden of tax.
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  33. #733
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    848 square feet in Sunnyvale, sold in 2 days.

    Price?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    You know it hurts when the steeep monthly cost is not the mortgage. It's the property tax.
    Here's the price btw. $2 MILLION.

    $2358 a square foot.

    https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/03/...ous-price-tag/
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    It is an interesting demographic now where you can be rich but only if you leave.

    That's on of the audiences of this thread for sure, the cash out audience.

    If one stays, the house is merely a security blanket and a burden of tax.
    You can leave and rent it. Then rent where you go. You get the benefits of cash flow, leverage, and appreciation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Here's the price btw. $2 MILLION.

    $2358 a square foot.

    https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/03/...ous-price-tag/
    my friend lives near there. he followed that home sale, he told me there was some strange things that boosted the price..i didnt care enough to ask.

    he is retiring so early because of it. he told me his was appraised at 1.65mil. i think he is quitting his job at 52..that makes me jealous.
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  36. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    You can leave and rent it. Then rent where you go. You get the benefits of cash flow, leverage, and appreciation.
    Yeah. Because of the tax structure here it does not sense to get rid of property. I feel I am pretty much stuck where I am now, though I donít complain at all. If I get more cash, will get some cabin in the Sierras to live half the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stripes View Post
    Packages being stolen is rampant in San Jose too (at least when I left). One of our neighbors even had her shoes (!!) stoeln off her front porch.
    I had my dirty, like work outdoors in them, workboots stolen from outside the front door of my apartment in Fremont. An indoor hallway front door, not even outside. Oh yeah, and my truck was stolen there too.
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  38. #738
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    Want to leave Bay Area. Where to go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boomchakabowwow View Post
    my friend lives near there. he followed that home sale, he told me there was some strange things that boosted the price..i didnt care enough to ask.

    he is retiring so early because of it. he told me his was appraised at 1.65mil. i think he is quitting his job at 52..that makes me jealous.

    For sure, something happened there. Looks like a teardown too since there are no contingencies. That lot is so small though to build something big.


    There was a sale a couple months ago where the seller said part of the deal was they be allowed to live in the house for seven years, rent free.

    SOLD, no problem.
    Last edited by fc; 03-03-2018 at 08:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    You can leave and rent it. Then rent where you go. You get the benefits of cash flow, leverage, and appreciation.
    And the option to return if you wish. Win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob-o View Post
    And the option to return if you wish. Win.
    Also, the option of doing a 1031 exchange after seasoning as an investment property. Double win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    You can leave and rent it. Then rent where you go. You get the benefits of cash flow, leverage, and appreciation.
    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    Also, the option of doing a 1031 exchange after seasoning as an investment property. Double win.
    Has to be "under the radar"

    1031 is supposed to be like kind for like kind, primary residednce fro primary or rental for rental.

    But it is very common to say your rental property is your primary residence. Just don't do if your last name is Manafort.

  42. #742
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    Yeah, take a second mortgage, buy a house in Bend, OR or Utah. Rent out the Bay Area house for $7k/month.

    Then when it gets cold, travel to Kauai, Florence and Lisbon for three months using the rental money.

    Or vanlife it for a year and discover the continent.

    YEAH???
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackies Pasture View Post
    Has to be "under the radar"

    1031 is supposed to be like kind for like kind, primary residednce fro primary or rental for rental.

    But it is very common to say your rental property is your primary residence. Just don't do if your last name is Manafort.
    If you rent your primary residence for a period of time it becomes a like kind investment property for the purposes of 1031 tax deferred exchange, if you buy another investment property. There is no 1031 for primary residence, but you do get $500k tax free above your basis if you're married and file jointly, $250k if single. The rules are complex, consult your CPA!
    Last edited by 5k bike 50cent legs; 03-03-2018 at 10:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Yeah, take a second mortgage, buy a house in Bend, OR or Utah. Rent out the Bay Area house for $7k/month.

    Then when it gets cold, travel to Kauai, Florence and Lisbon for three months using the rental money.

    Or vanlife it for a year and discover the continent.

    YEAH???
    Or even better, hire a manager and rent it on a nightly basis on AirBnB. Piss off all your neighbors, but make a fortune in rents!

    Van life would be cool, but my wife would never spend a night in one. So, for me that's out! Florence, Aspen, Kauai in luxury hotels is more her speed.

  45. #745
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Or vanlife it for a year and discover the continent.

    YEAH???
    At least a year

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    It is an interesting demographic now where you can be rich but only if you leave.

    That's on of the audiences of this thread for sure, the cash out audience.

    If one stays, the house is merely a security blanket and a burden of tax.
    Yep. Sell and get out now, before the housing market collapses. You know it will happen sooner or later.
    So many trails... so little time...

  47. #747
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave54 View Post
    Yep. Sell and get out now, before the housing market collapses. You know it will happen sooner or later.
    Like '08, or.... sarcasm meter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dave54 View Post
    Yep. Sell and get out now, before the housing market collapses. You know it will happen sooner or later.
    Kinda depends on your plans. Either get out now or in 10-12 years would be my guess. So if youíre close to retirement or want to move out of state and retire or at least cruise itís probably a good time. I think weíve got another 12-18 months before we start heading down. Usually itís around a 7 year cycle (average +-) and I think weíre near the peak.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzaro View Post
    Kinda depends on your plans. Either get out now or in 10-12 years would be my guess. So if youíre close to retirement or want to move out of state and retire or at least cruise itís probably a good time. I think weíve got another 12-18 months before we start heading down. Usually itís around a 7 year cycle (average +-) and I think weíre near the peak.
    Though there may seem to be cycles in RE it's really more about demographics. The Mellennial generation is hitting that age where they are forming family's and need housing. It's happening all over the Country, not just here tho some areas have a bigger housing crunch than others. Couple that w/ the great recession where builders quit building for a number of years so we have years where no new inventory was added to housing.

    If employment stays the same we're prolly in for years of a housing shortage. Of course it could get so expensive at some point that buyers start questioning whether they should rent or even move kinda like we see now.

    Sadly if you are waiting for a tanking of the market you might be outta luck for a long time as there are 83 million Mellennials that need housing and many waiting for the market to tank so they can step in which in and of itself could keep the market from tanking.

    We shall see.

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    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/04/bend...ter-towns.html

    Interesting. Apple is right up the hwy in Prineville, but there are no jobs there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mb323323 View Post
    Though there may seem to be cycles in RE it's really more about demographics. The Mellennial generation is hitting that age where they are forming family's and need housing. It's happening all over the Country, not just here tho some areas have a bigger housing crunch than others. Couple that w/ the great recession where builders quit building for a number of years so we have years where no new inventory was added to housing.

    If employment stays the same we're prolly in for years of a housing shortage. Of course it could get so expensive at some point that buyers start questioning whether they should rent or even move kinda like we see now.

    Sadly if you are waiting for a tanking of the market you might be outta luck for a long time as there are 83 million Mellennials that need housing and many waiting for the market to tank so they can step in which in and of itself could keep the market from tanking.

    We shall see.
    News this morning that banking regulations may get rolled back again. Apparently the last crash worked out well and they want another cycle of bankruptcies to grab more property.
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  53. #753
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    Affordable rent - Invented in Tokyo, coming to SF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    For sure, something happened there. Looks like a teardown too since there are no contingencies. That lot is so small though to build something big.


    There was a sale a couple months ago where the seller said part of the deal was they be allowed to live in the house for seven years, rent free.

    SOLD, no problem.
    No contingencies is kinda the norm in the Bay Area. Sellers are more willing to accept an offer with no contingencies and buyers want their offer to be more desirable when competing with a ton of offers. The buyers of this one really wanted the house. Paid cash. It is surprising the buyers wanted it so badly. There are better neighborhoods near that I think would fetch 2 million no problem but never thought that area would.

    I lived near their for junior high and high school. Know that neighborhood well.

  55. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    There's a Blue Zone here in the US too. Interesting what they attribute it to.

    https://bluezones.com/exploration/lo...da-california/

    1. Strong social ties.
    2. A little physical labor.
    3. Mainly vegetarian diet.

    I think they are pretty much the same concepts all over the world. Eat healthy, exercise, less stress, and positive social ties. The keyword is "positive" in social ties for them to relieve stress. Poor negative social ties can cause lots of stress and those are the ones that have to be limited or cut.

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    comments from MTBers?
    ďIím a little over San Francisco... Itís so expensive, itís so congested, and frankly, you also see opportunities in other places.Ē
    ďIf it werenít for my kids, Iíd totally moveĒ
    ďPeople want to be in places where theyíre the heroĒ

    Nope! Bay Area VCs:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/04/t...y-midwest.html


    I think if half of them move out, along with associated tech craziness, a lot of the problems will solve themselves. my home (Santa Cruz area) could lose value short term, but I would rather be here for the long haul

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshmj View Post
    comments from MTBers?
    ďIím a little over San Francisco... Itís so expensive, itís so congested, and frankly, you also see opportunities in other places.Ē
    ďIf it werenít for my kids, Iíd totally moveĒ
    ďPeople want to be in places where theyíre the heroĒ

    Nope! Bay Area VCs:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/04/t...y-midwest.html


    I think if half of them move out, along with associated tech craziness, a lot of the problems will solve themselves. my home (Santa Cruz area) could lose value short term, but I would rather be here for the long haul
    All 3 places you will be stuck inside 3-4 months outta the year, no mtn biking, etc, etc. Are there even any hills/mtns in those areas. And in the Summer 2 months outta the year is will be hot and sticky.

    I just don't see too many Silicon Valley residences being happy back there after spending time out here. Maybe a few but most, probably not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mb323323 View Post
    All 3 places you will be stuck inside 3-4 months outta the year, no mtn biking, etc, etc. Are there even any hills/mtns in those areas. And in the Summer 2 months outta the year is will be hot and sticky.

    I just don't see too many Silicon Valley residences being happy back there after spending time out here. Maybe a few but most, probably not.
    I got the hell out of the midwest when I graduated from Ohio State 30 years ago. Couldn't wait to leave. Weather sucked. Summer and winter. Very conservative politics.

    They put a ski "resort" on the only hill between Columbus and Cleveland. It has a whopping 300' vertical drop...

    You couldn't pay me to go back.

  59. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshmj View Post
    comments from MTBers?
    ďIím a little over San Francisco... Itís so expensive, itís so congested, and frankly, you also see opportunities in other places.Ē
    ďIf it werenít for my kids, Iíd totally moveĒ
    ďPeople want to be in places where theyíre the heroĒ

    Nope! Bay Area VCs:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/04/t...y-midwest.html


    I think if half of them move out, along with associated tech craziness, a lot of the problems will solve themselves. my home (Santa Cruz area) could lose value short term, but I would rather be here for the long haul
    I read this article earlier today. I think the real underlying issues that VCs are having is that they have over-valued and over-funded companies to keeping engineers put for more than a year is becoming impossible. This means you're constantly on-boarding new employees and real productivity drops due to the constant churn. They are finally reaping the seeds that they sow to some extent.

  60. #760
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    Quote Originally Posted by alxrmrs View Post
    I read this article earlier today. I think the real underlying issues that VCs are having is that they have over-valued and over-funded companies to keeping engineers put for more than a year is becoming impossible. This means you're constantly on-boarding new employees and real productivity drops due to the constant churn. They are finally reaping the seeds that they sow to some extent.
    I think the big problem is too much money chasing too few deals.

  61. #761
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    Compelling article today....

    Why people are leaving San Francisco - Business Insider

    A recent report from real-estate site Redfin revealed that San Francisco lost more residents than any other US city in the last quarter of 2017. The great migration is far from over. Last month, 49% of Bay Area residents said they would consider leaving California because of the cost of living, according to a survey of 500 residents by public-relations firm Edelman.
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    Not surprised at Telsa engineer living in a van. Probably because they pay well under market and you have to deal with an insane cult leader as CEO.

  63. #763
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    The market will work itself out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    The market will work itself out.

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    I don't think anyone is denying that the market will somewhat sort itself out, eventually. We're debating which side of that market we want to be on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alxrmrs View Post
    I don't think anyone is denying that the market will somewhat sort itself out, eventually. We're debating which side of that market we want to be on.
    Apparently half is leaving and the other half is staying. So long as all the jobs are between San Jose and SF, there won't be a solution. If some companies move their operations out east where people live, it may get better.

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    Not only what side of the market you want to be on, but whether it's worth bearing the growing pains until steady state is achieved.

    From a mountain biking perspective, I think it would take 5-10 years to "catch up" to other regions if we started today. Some folks I regard highly think SFBA biking is pretty awesome as is, just depends on what you're looking for. I think relying on illegal trail building and Balkanized land management is unsustainable.

    On the local ghetto update: someone cased the houses on my street a couple days ago. I'm not sure if having a guy in a hoodie checking out your security system should have me worried (obviously I must have something worth protecting) or reassured (cuz half my neighbors haven't got 'em, they're easier targets). Since he was staring into my cameras I have lots of photos of his mug, but I doubt the police can do much with 'em. My neighbor confided that they've had enough and are leaving this summer.

    NextDoor has also exploded in the past couple of days with NIMBY battle cries and education debates. San Mateo diverts HALF of taxes collected for education to the general fund, where they're used to pay pensions. Also the city is quite happy to allow commercial development, but the NIMBYs are organized and motivated to stop any housing development. The discussions generally devolve into a sea of stupidity as the NIMBYs aren't willing to deal in numbers, only lament that their way of life is threatened.

    Re: US News and Report, I went through the categories.
    CA scored low due to poor rankings in healthcare, K-12 education, income inequality, employment gender gap, education gap by race, housing affordability, cost of living, electricity price, commute time, road quality, internet access, violent crime rate, recidivism, state govt credit rating & liquidity, pollution (especially air quality), AND all the social rankings: voter participation, social support, community engagement.

    Note that WA and OR also score very poorly on affordability. WA does well on education and healthcare. The social rankings are not good. My guess is OR is very disparate as many of the scores are middle of the pack (good infrastructure, though). CO, overall, and as a state, does rather well.

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    Wow I thought it was getting bad up here in Sonoma County but reading some of this stuff, I am feeling pretty good. No wonder so many SiliValley follks are moving here or just buying weekend places. You can still buy a 3/2 starter home for $500 -$600K which seems crazy to me but compared to down there must seem a bargain.

    My plan is to probably keep my place and get a small place up in the mountains somewhere. I really like the area around Mt Shasta (like fly fishing too) but not too sure about mountain biking there.

  68. #768
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Apparently half is leaving and the other half is staying. So long as all the jobs are between San Jose and SF, there won't be a solution. If some companies move their operations out east where people live, it may get better.
    Peninsula is where all the managers live.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fitek View Post
    From a mountain biking perspective, I think it would take 5-10 years to "catch up" to other regions if we started today.
    Now that I stopped laughing I can write about how long it takes, after everything has already been approved, to open anything. When was Calero park plan discussed? I remember meetings in 2011, that was well under way. We probably get stuff in 2019?

    When was measure AA with all the promises adopted? That one we will get nothing.

    When they promised to open SF Watershed roads? Three years back they promised an environmental review done.

    It is 10 years just to do all the reviews nowadays. What we have now is likely what we will have in our lifetime.

  70. #770
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Peninsula is where all the managers live.
    Executives all live between Palo Alto and Los Gatos. Can't commute too far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Executives all live between Palo Alto and Los Gatos. Can't commute too far.

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    No executives in Menlo Park, Atherton, Woodside, or Hillsborough?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    No executives in Menlo Park, Atherton, Woodside, or Hillsborough?
    Most then. Happy now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    Most then. Happy now?

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    I had to throw it in there!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    I had to throw it in there!
    Fair enough. It was an overly sweeping statement, but the gist remains.

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    I have lived in Palo Alto for a long time, and I'm in the real estate business. The prices now are truly shocking, and not just in Palo Alto.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    I have lived in Palo Alto for a long time, and I'm in the real estate business. The prices now are truly shocking, and not just in Palo Alto.
    How long? The bubble leading up to the '08 crash (residential) was mostly fed by liar loans which have been done away with so what type of buyer is fueling this current surge in prices? Is it many new exec level jobs vs low inventory? Who is the typical nut overbidding insane amounts?

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    At some moment significant amount of real estate was cash deals from China.

    Otherwise supply/demand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    At some moment significant amount of real estate was cash deals from China.

    Otherwise supply/demand.
    I can see Chinese investing into existing hot markets but not driving them. Perhaps having some effect on inventory but I think they are not the major driver in crazy value increases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob-o View Post
    I can see Chinese investing into existing hot markets but not driving them. Perhaps having some effect on inventory but I think they are not the major driver in crazy value increases.
    The number I remember was over half the deals on thin inventory.

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    Diminishing inventory, inflation, low interest rates, and an influx of foreign capital is a recipe for asset inflation in any investable class.

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    I had read that about 30% of luxury condos in SF were going to foreign buyers. Another 30% as second homes for the rich. So about 30-40% left for everyone else (twas an argument against all the luxury condos going up since each unit only houses .3 locals).

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    Quote Originally Posted by fitek View Post
    I had read that about 30% of luxury condos in SF were going to foreign buyers. Another 30% as second homes for the rich. So about 30-40% left for everyone else (twas an argument against all the luxury condos going up since each unit only houses .3 locals).
    I think we are seeing a vicious cycle of of hyper asset inflation, where prices go up so fast that no one sells, as they can't afford to buy up. In Palo Alto, if you sell, your property taxes and mortgage increase dramatically when buying up, so it's better for most to stay put. Which ironically, puts more pressure on prices as inventory shrinks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    I think we are seeing a vicious cycle of of hyper asset inflation, where prices go up so fast that no one sells, as they can't afford to buy up. In Palo Alto, if you sell, your property taxes and mortgage increase dramatically when buying up, so it's better for most to stay put. Which ironically, puts more pressure on prices as inventory shrinks.
    Unless a new home is built, moving up won't increase inventory. Thanks for answering my earlier questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob-o View Post
    Unless a new home is built, moving won't increase inventory. Thanks for answering my earlier questions.
    Inventory defined as number of homes for sale, not number of additional units built. Moving increases the local inventory when people leave the area or, die and the house is sold; and the entry level inventory additionally increases when they move up. Right now, not many are moving up, which historically constituted a large percentage of the entry level inventory, and the supply of incoming buyers dramatically outweighs the current inventory.

    To your other questions:

    I have lived in Palo Alto and been involved in real estate as an investor, developer and broker in both residential and commercial, for more than 20 years.

    Who are these buyers? On the mid-Peninsula executives with good salaries and access to cheap financing, people with windfall gains from investments, foreign capital, and heirs, represent the lion's share of buyers.

    Entry level now in Palo Alto is $3MM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fitek View Post
    I had read that about 30% of luxury condos in SF were going to foreign buyers. Another 30% as second homes for the rich.
    These categories are not mutually exclusive. Most of the foreign buyers ARE rich. A few are moving here, some are buying for investment, and some are buying second (or third or fourth) homes. Presumably the investment property finds its way onto the rental market (unless it is being flipped so fast and furiously that nobody owns it long enough to move anybody in).
    Quote Originally Posted by fitek View Post
    So about 30-40% left for everyone else (twas an argument against all the luxury condos going up since each unit only houses .3 locals).
    If that were really the case, the city would be a lot less crowded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andytiedye View Post
    These categories are not mutually exclusive. Most of the foreign buyers ARE rich. A few are moving here, some are buying for investment, and some are buying second (or third or fourth) homes. Presumably the investment property finds its way onto the rental market (unless it is being flipped so fast and furiously that nobody owns it long enough to move anybody in).

    If that were really the case, the city would be a lot less crowded.

    Sent from my SM-P900 using Tapatalk
    If that were really the case the city would be a ghost town, as many of the foreign owned and/or second homes sit empty most of the year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    entry level inventory
    Different. Can see how it's limited.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob-o View Post
    Different. Can see how it's limited.
    It's gotten to the point where a household has to make a 7 figure income to live in Palo Alto without feeling strained. Will be interesting to see how this dynamic changes, regroups, and the cycle starts again!

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    Some data to think about:

    The number of single family homes sold in Palo Alto in 2004 was about twice what it was in 2017, and has been somewhat linear. The average price in 2017 was about triple what it was in 2004, and has been somewhat exponential.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fitek View Post
    I had read that about 30% of luxury condos in SF were going to foreign buyers. Another 30% as second homes for the rich. So about 30-40% left for everyone else (twas an argument against all the luxury condos going up since each unit only houses .3 locals).
    Letís not forget about properties that are AirBNB too. That impacts inventory and demand greatly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fitek View Post
    Not only what side of the market you want to be on, but whether it's worth bearing the growing pains until steady state is achieved.

    From a mountain biking perspective, I think it would take 5-10 years to "catch up" to other regions if we started today. Some folks I regard highly think SFBA biking is pretty awesome as is, just depends on what you're looking for. I think relying on illegal trail building and Balkanized land management is unsustainable.

    On the local ghetto update: someone cased the houses on my street a couple days ago. I'm not sure if having a guy in a hoodie checking out your security system should have me worried (obviously I must have something worth protecting) or reassured (cuz half my neighbors haven't got 'em, they're easier targets). Since he was staring into my cameras I have lots of photos of his mug, but I doubt the police can do much with 'em. My neighbor confided that they've had enough and are leaving this summer.

    NextDoor has also exploded in the past couple of days with NIMBY battle cries and education debates. San Mateo diverts HALF of taxes collected for education to the general fund, where they're used to pay pensions. Also the city is quite happy to allow commercial development, but the NIMBYs are organized and motivated to stop any housing development. The discussions generally devolve into a sea of stupidity as the NIMBYs aren't willing to deal in numbers, only lament that their way of life is threatened.

    Re: US News and Report, I went through the categories.
    CA scored low due to poor rankings in healthcare, K-12 education, income inequality, employment gender gap, education gap by race, housing affordability, cost of living, electricity price, commute time, road quality, internet access, violent crime rate, recidivism, state govt credit rating & liquidity, pollution (especially air quality), AND all the social rankings: voter participation, social support, community engagement.

    Note that WA and OR also score very poorly on affordability. WA does well on education and healthcare. The social rankings are not good. My guess is OR is very disparate as many of the scores are middle of the pack (good infrastructure, though). CO, overall, and as a state, does rather well.
    I think mountain biking in California is more like will happen in 10-20 years to catch up to the other areas.

    In 2000, MidPenn closed trails to mountain bikers. They have opened up zero AFAIK.

    Did the bike park in San Jose ever open? Last I heard it was spring of 2017.

    Santa Clara open space was working on stuff, not sure about any progress.

    Pretty sure EBMUD and Marin wonít do anything new.

    So everyone goes to UCSC, demo, and wilder.

    As far as quality of life, Portland and Seattle look like they have a lot of crime.

    The big trigger for me that I needed to get out of the Bay Area sooner rather than later was my asthma. The second thing was our car being broken into twice in the same week: once in our driveway.

    And we lived in the Bucknall neighborhood in San Jose. You know, the one Redfin shows is the highest demand in the country now.
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    My little house almost doubled in price since I got it. I would have bought a slightly bigger and nicer house, but perspective of paying triple my current property tax rate in perpetuity - and that would be some very nice home mortgage payments elsewhere - does not sound very appealing.
    Still, prop 13 is great overall. Sacramento should not get an extra dime if we can avoid that.

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    I thought that property taxes went to local govt (city, county) and schools? Not state govt was my understanding.

    Prop 13 is great overall - esp if you are a homeowner. Like anything, it has pros/cons and winners/losers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    My little house almost doubled in price since I got it. I would have bought a slightly bigger and nicer house, but perspective of paying triple my current property tax rate in perpetuity - and that would be some very nice home mortgage payments elsewhere - does not sound very appealing.
    Still, prop 13 is great overall. Sacramento should not get an extra dime if we can avoid that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by king_dave72 View Post
    I thought that property taxes went to local govt (city, county) and schools? Not state govt was my understanding.
    Yeah, but State spends on schools as well, so that reduces their expenses and lets them waste more money on trains to nowhere and 10 year multi agency trail construction reviews.

    Then they make tax hikes through ballots, because think of the children. Teachers union definitely sponsors a whole lot of those.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Still, prop 13 is great overall. Sacramento should not get an extra dime if we can avoid that.

    I'm SO SO glad my landlord has his property taxes locked in while I have 7-10% yearly rent hikes.

    Oh, and it applies to commercial properties too. Yet more mismanagement in CA.

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    Is there anywhere in socal that would be a nice alternative to the bay area in terms of cost of living and access to fun trails?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Mackenzie View Post
    Is there anywhere in socal that would be a nice alternative to the bay area in terms of cost of living and access to fun trails?
    I'm sure a post in the SoCal forum would get a ton of responses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5k bike 50cent legs View Post
    I'm sure a post in the SoCal forum would get a ton of responses.
    My bad. Didn't realize socal was excluded from this thread about wanting to leave the bay area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Mackenzie View Post
    My bad. Didn't realize socal was excluded from this thread about wanting to leave the bay area.
    Not excluded at all! Just a friendly idea. The guys in SoCal would probably give you a 1000 places that are better than the Bay Area! LOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Mackenzie View Post
    Is there anywhere in socal that would be a nice alternative to the bay area in terms of cost of living and access to fun trails?
    Idyllwild, Big Bear, Kernville, and Alpine come to mind. They're all small towns, but they have great riding--and the latter two have excellent beer.
    Nice e-bike! (sorry about your penis)

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