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  1. #1
    fc
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    Victor aka Stalk - rider down.

    On the huge Demo ride today, Victor suffered a serious injury, unfortunately.

    Victor, Dan'ger, Alex and I were on the first of three loops at Demo forest. Coming down the Corral Trail fire road, Victor slipped off a small jump. He put his right foot down to brace the fall but it seemed to get stuck and twisted. When he came down, his foot looked out of place and there was huge bump on his ankle. Once he got in a comfortable position, the the foot and ankle seemed to fall back in place. Initial prognosis is a severely dislocated ankle.

    Dan'ger immediately gave him a Percocet painkiller and a motrin 800. We tried to get Victor in a comfortable position but left right in the middle of the fire road

    We were one mile up on Corral trail from Hihn's Mill road. Danger, Alex and I called 911 and help and rescue were on the way. An hour a half later, we realized the rescue vehicles were stuck a quarter mile below us. The recent rains made the fire road pretty muddy. Victor started shivering and was looking pretty pale. We got him out about an hour later using a gurney with one all-terrain wheel in the middle.

    Good thing we had cell service there and as I was talking to 911. I could hear Victor yelling adamantly.... "NO HELICOPTER!!!!"

    Anyway, when they got Victor out to the parking lot, they gave him the choice of going in an Ambulance that goes to Santa Cruz or going to the hospital on his own. Apparently, Victor felt comfortable enough to have Alex drive him to El Camino Hospital.

    Here's the pics of Victor looking pretty comfortable. He felt better once the drugs kicked in, his leg was stablized and he got a little sun and some barbecue.

    Victor is extremely bummed about not biking for a while. Plus he loves skiing and the season is just about to start. He is very worried about the long recovery and healing process for this type of injury.

    Let's wish him well.

    francois
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  2. #2
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    Well that answers the question of where the 9 o'clock group went.

    Victor, here's wishing you a speedy and total recovery.
    Last edited by fred-da-trog; 11-04-2006 at 06:28 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Well, that's not good. That explains why you weren't at the picnic table. Sorry to hear Victor. I am sure that you will recover fast, you are a strong lad.
    Dude with a single track mind.

  4. #4
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    Damn, Demo claims another.

    Heal quick! (Good call on the chopper).

    fp
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    A global map of winds. Pretty cool.

  5. #5
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    Victor,

    We all hope to see you out on the trails soon!

    As interesting side note to me is that Victor and Francis (our two big MTBR ride crashes as of late) are both skilled and strong riders. Neither are folks I would describe as reckless and haphazard daredevils on the trails-- I consider them both very responsible riders. Yet, they both ended up hurt fairly seriously.

    Thank goodness for the soft soil of Santa Cruz!

    Shiloh
    Can we talk tires now?

  6. #6
    aka baycat
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    Heal up Victor, your Nomad will miss you for a few days-week(s)

  7. #7
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    Get well soon Vic. I hate to see fellow riders down.


    Too bad K-max just put together his Nomad, I'm sure he would have loved to put yours to use for the next few weeks.

    -Dan

  8. #8
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    Sorry to hear about that. Heal quick

  9. #9
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    What's the best All-Mountain gurney? (x-post from AM)

    Well, we got to see it but since Alex, Victor, Francis nor I had a camera, we've got no pictures to prove it. I swear, this thing was a stokes stretcher with a uni-Pugsley wheel attached to it. We had to warn Victor that he wasn't allowed to huck it on his way to the ambulance.

    Anyway, heal up Victor!

    Thanks again to the local CDF and Sheriff's department. IMO, they did a great job of attending to Vic and had a good sense of humor to boot.

    As for everybody else - DON'T GET HURT!!!

    So, OK, the ride wasn't epic but we did get in 11 miles and 1600' of climbing. Not bad for a little over 1 hour of riding.

    ...and...we found out what a "kid stand" was...

    Thanks also to Trail Head - great BBQ and a good time! now if only we could keep the little kids from eating banana slugs...
    There are no stupid questions but there are A LOT of inquisitive idiots.


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  10. #10
    It's about showing up.
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    Ouch!

    Sorry to hear about your crash and burn.I hope things set well and you can get some rest. Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

  11. #11
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    Great to hear itsallright

    Hey Victor....we were one of the first people to come down and see you on the ground. Really glad to hear everything will be ok.

    Francis- Great to see you on a dirty bike again.

    Josh

  12. #12
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    Victor,
    sorry to hear this. get well soon.
    hope ride together soon.
    / Jae

  13. #13
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    ***

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    My beat box is bumpin' and my rhymes are fresh...
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  14. #14
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    Ouch Victor...

    sorry to hear about your injury. I hope you heal fast... I know how much you love riding. We will try to keep you entertained. As I was climbing Sulpher I saw a Sheriff SUV coming down and later found out that you were in it, sorry I did not wave.

    Francois, Dan'ger and Alex- You guys are very cool to have helped. I did not realize what you all went through when I saw you as they were loading Victor's bike. I did see the gurney thing Dan'ger was describing thoough it was upside down in the back of that fire truck. Again, you guys did a real good thing. It shows what kind of people we ride with.
    My beat box is bumpin' and my rhymes are fresh...
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  15. #15
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    Does it look like this? Taken from the Arizona boards.

    SoMo Death March

    -Sp

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan'ger
    Well, we got to see it but since Alex, Victor, Francis nor I had a camera, we've got no pictures to prove it. I swear, this thing was a stokes stretcher with a uni-Pugsley wheel attached to it. We had to warn Victor that he wasn't allowed to huck it on his way to the ambulance.

    Anyway, heal up Victor!

    Thanks again to the local CDF and Sheriff's department. IMO, they did a great job of attending to Vic and had a good sense of humor to boot.

    As for everybody else - DON'T GET HURT!!!

    So, OK, the ride wasn't epic but we did get in 11 miles and 1600' of climbing. Not bad for a little over 1 hour of riding.

    ...and...we found out what a "kid stand" was...

    Thanks also to Trail Head - great BBQ and a good time! now if only we could keep the little kids from eating banana slugs...

  16. #16
    Feeling a little taller
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    Quote Originally Posted by SinglePivot
    Does it look like this? Taken from the Arizona boards.



    -Sp
    It looked EXACTLY like that!
    There are no stupid questions but there are A LOT of inquisitive idiots.


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  17. #17
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    Bummer.

    Sorry to hear about the wreck. Just take it easy and follow the rehab and you'll be up and skiing/biking soon.

    -Derek

  18. #18
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    Bummer

    Quote Originally Posted by francois
    Victor is extremely bummed about not biking for a while. Plus he loves skiing and the season is just about to start. He is very worried about the long recovery and healing process for this type of injury.

    Let's wish him well.
    I'm Always at a loss for words when I read about stuff like this. Heal quick.

  19. #19
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    Nice to see everything came out best case. I passed you on my Highline a few minutes before the female paramedic got there. I think she was first the first one up on foot.
    I had to figure you were either in shock or thankfully on meds as I read when you apologized for messing with my flow being sprawled out on the trail. hahha!

    Get well soon Stalk.

  20. #20
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDawg
    Nice to see everything came out best case. I passed you on my Highline a few minutes before the female paramedic got there. I think she was first the first one up on foot.
    I had to figure you were either in shock or thankfully on meds as I read when you apologized for messing with my flow being sprawled out on the trail. hahha!

    Get well soon Stalk.

    Dude, you did not even pause in your nice ride to check if we were ok or if help was on the way. That was cold-blooded.

    Every rider who passed stopped to help... except you. I'm bummed.

    francois
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  21. #21
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    Easy there Francois. I could tell he was in obviously good hands and being taken care of -immobilized, covered and alert as I came to almost a complete stop. I checked for cell coverage but before I could make a call I saw another rider escorting the paramedic up to whom I mentioned how much further up the trail the downed rider was. I also stopped at the stuck rescue vehicles and checked with the backup paramedics still at the parking lot.

  22. #22
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDawg
    Easy there Francois. I could tell he was in obviously good hands and being taken care of -immobilized, covered and alert as I came to almost a complete stop. I checked for cell coverage but before I could make a call I saw another rider escorting the paramedic up to whom I mentioned how much further up the trail the downed rider was. I also stopped at the stuck rescue vehicles and checked with the backup paramedics still at the parking lot.
    This is bumming me out even more. You figured all that out as you whizzed by us?? I know you and we're all wearing mtbr jerseys and you don't even say a word?

    Victor was laying down smack down in the middle of the fire road too. We couldn't move move him since it was too painful for him.

    This is advice for others, if you see someone badly hurt in the middle of the trail, stop for 10 seconds, show some support and some sympathy. It means a lot to the injured.

    francois
    Last edited by fc; 11-07-2006 at 11:28 AM.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois
    This is bumming me out even more. You figured all that out as you whizzed by us?? I know you and we're all wearing mtbr jerseys and you don't even say a word?

    This is advice for others, if you see someone badly hurt in the middle of the trail, stop for 10 seconds, show some support and some sympathy. It means a lot to the injured.

    francois
    As I whizzed by you? WTF? Did you read my post? You weren't there and no I did not recognize the riders or whatever was written on their jerseys because I can't read shiat 10ft in front of me without my glasses and I've obviously not kept up on the MTBR jersey of the day.

    You got some sage advice there bud. I do recall stopping and checking on you a few months ago -remember? Or maybe you didn't recognize me because I wasn't wearing colors?

  24. #24
    Feeling a little taller
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois
    This is bumming me out even more. You figured all that out as you whizzed by us?? I know you and we're all wearing mtbr jerseys and you don't even say a word?

    This is advice for others, if you see someone badly hurt in the middle of the trail, stop for 10 seconds, show some support and some sympathy. It means a lot to the injured.

    francois
    Easy, Francis...I don't remember anyone "whizzing" by without at least a pause to listen to questions that others were asking if not asking themselves or at least slowing down.

    I thought that the minimal observer response was looks of concern if nothing else, but we did visibly have the situation under some sort of control.
    There are no stupid questions but there are A LOT of inquisitive idiots.


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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois
    This is bumming me out even more. You figured all that out as you whizzed by us?? I know you and we're all wearing mtbr jerseys and you don't even say a word?

    This is advice for others, if you see someone badly hurt in the middle of the trail, stop for 10 seconds, show some support and some sympathy. It means a lot to the injured.

    francois
    Victor,

    Heal up dude - I need someone to chase!

    Francis - don't be so quick to judge.

    I agree with your advise - but you also realize that the thoughts of a mountain biker meandering through the woods some times lag when confronted with unforseen obstacles and incidents.

    Just today while out in Joquin Miller I found my mouth several steps behind my mind, when passing an oncoming hiker. My usual greeting of "howdy" was lost to my body's contortions to make way for said hiker.

    I would have liked to have greeted the person in my normal fashion - but when the mouth is out of gear, sometimes it takes a moment to re-engage.

    Who knows what was on DDawgs mind when he passed Victor. Hopefully singletrack bliss - which as we all know effects our thoughts in a delightfully pleasing way - sometimes with deleterious effects on our other cognitive abilities.

    Let's just all be sure to be our brothers keeper. We all get hurt from time to time, and need each others help.

  26. #26
    "Audaces fortuna iuvat"
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    Boy who cried wolf

    A few months back I was riding with some pals at Tamarancho - was way ahead of them coming into the sections with the 1/2 log bridges... So for a goof I stopped when I got to the first bridge and layed my bike down on the bridge half way off and then layed face down in the gully. When my friends all rode up on the fake "scene" they came running over to me to make sure I was ok and I turned over and yelled "GOTCHA" and laughed my ass off.. Now when/if I crash they don't even stop !!!!





    Quote Originally Posted by DDawg
    As I whizzed by you? WTF? Did you read my post? You weren't there and no I did not recognize the riders or whatever was written on their jerseys because I can't read shiat 10ft in front of me without my glasses and I've obviously not kept up on the MTBR jersey of the day.

    You got some sage advice there bud. I do recall stopping and checking on you a few months ago -remember? Or maybe you didn't recognize me because I wasn't wearing colors?

  27. #27
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan'ger
    Easy, Francis...I don't remember anyone "whizzing" by without at least a pause to listen to questions that others were asking if not asking themselves or at least slowing down.

    I thought that the minimal observer response was looks of concern if nothing else, but we did visibly have the situation under some sort of control.
    Everyone talked to us and showed great concern right? Yep, all except one while you were retrieving the medics.

    "WTF? I know that guy too." I told Victor and Alex.

    francois
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois
    Everyone talked to us and showed great concern right? Yep, all except one while you were retrieving the medics.

    "WTF? I know that guy too." I told Victor and Alex.

    francois
    I've come across many MTBR riders who couldn't distinguish me from Joe Blow and hence the total lack of acknowledgement on their part-it's Ok. You want to vent -ask yourself why it took 1.5 hrs for the medics to show? Why didn't you send somebody down sooner to check on paramedic location? You knew it had rained and that the trails were muddy. Why didn't you post somebody a little further up the trail to avoid a collision with downed rider? Lot's of Whys Francois? If you recall my previous posts, I know it's hard, I made sure the medics were within minutes of reaching your location. You should try and address the real issues.
    Last edited by DDawg; 11-04-2006 at 10:19 PM.

  29. #29
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo
    Hey Victor....we were one of the first people to come down and see you on the ground. Really glad to hear everything will be ok.

    Francis- Great to see you on a dirty bike again.

    Josh
    Hey Josh, it was real good seeing you. It's good to be back at demo. This week will exhibit the finest riding conditions there as the trail dries up a bit.

    Tomorrow I get to do a make-up ride at Wilder!

    fc
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  30. #30
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    Hang in there!

    Hang in there and you'll be back to this soon!


  31. #31
    fc
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    update, update...

    Ok, I just talked to Victor. He is at El Camino Hospital and he will have surgery tomorrow at 8:30 am. He has 2 broken bones, one on his leg and I believe another one on the ankle. The tendons and joints seem ok. They will insert a bunch of pins tomorrow.

    He will be out of action sports for a few months. After the bones are stabilized, the doctor might go in later and move some pins around to get some rehab going. There is a good chance of 100% recovery and that is Victor's main concern.

    Victor was in very good spirits and was cracking jokes as usual. He knew about the posts on this thread and he extends his gratitude to everyone. Victor is a trooper and is prob'ly the most improved rider this year thanks to his great attitude.

    francois
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  32. #32
    Snowjnky McDreamy
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    Bummer

    Hope you feel better. I saw you on the way down, surprised to see that you looked in good spirits considering the circumstances. Wishing you 100% recovery.The snow season is going to suck anyways. Thanks to the Francis and the guys for giving us the pre-warning you can get going pretty fast on Corral and with the conditions at Demo today it might have been a recipe for disaster.
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  33. #33
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowjnky
    Hope you feel better. I saw you on the way down, surprised to see that you looked in good spirits considering the circumstances. Wishing you 100% recovery.The snow season is going to suck anyways. Thanks to the Francis and the guys for giving us the pre-warning you can get going pretty fast on Corral and with the conditions at Demo today it might have been a recipe for disaster.
    Great seeing you again Chris. Thanks for checking up on us.

    Victor is pretty amazing. He remained upbeat and kept cracking jokes. Before the medics came though. His face was turning very pale and he was starting to shake quite a bit.

    francois
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  34. #34
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    Wow, sorry to hear about Victor's broken bones. I hope they heal quickly!

  35. #35
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    injuries sux - foot/heel/ankle injuries sux-er-er!! Sorry to hear a bout the late season injury V - we've never met, but I've had a nasty heel injury a few years ago, so I can relate. Keep your chin up and hopes high – you’ll be back stronger than ever! Cheers!

  36. #36
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    Dang. I'm very sorry to hear about that, Victor.

    Here's to a speedy recovery, and to your family taking good care of you in the mean time.
    This is no time for levity. - Oliver Hardy

  37. #37
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    Hey Victor - best wishes for a speedy and complete recovery! Bummer to read that you were hurt but nice to read about the post-crash care from your friends, CDF, Sheriff, etc., and that the prognosis is good for a complete recovery.

    ///Charlie

  38. #38
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    get well soon, those chairs sure look comfortable, I will to be sure to bring them everytime

    Cheers

    Jim

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    Get well soon, Victor!!!

    I was saddened to read about Victor. He's a really cool guy with a great attitude.

    Hey Victor... Can I have your bike while you rehab? j/k

    Heal up fast... you'll be better than ever

  40. #40
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    It was scary to hear about an accident on Corral, and it being some 'clean cut white dude with a MTBR jersey'. We thought it was Dan, or Victor.
    When we rolled to the parking lot, and saw Victor sitting there, he was in amazing spirit for having just gone through that. He sat there as if his leg hurts and he's just resting it. Wow. Tough dude.
    Get well my friend. See you in Spring on the trails, and you can teach how you trackstand so well.

  41. #41
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    Francois response is revealing

    As a veteran ride leader I have become very sensitive to how people respond to injured riders. I probably expect more of passing riders or riders in the group than most. Some months back I berated dipwads at China Camp who failed to support a rider injured in their own group. As Francois has, uh...... been on that gurney himself pretty recently, such a circumstance is highly charged. It has taken him a lot of time and effort to bring himself back.
    I know that this might sound dippy but such trailside injuries are often a challenge to manage in many different ways. As such lots of feeling are stirred and lots of things get said. In the end we are all in a better postion to understand. We might keep that in mind.

  42. #42
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    being an outsider, i hate to invade this tread. it sounds like you folks did really well with the situation, however, having over 20 years as an emt in the the wilderness setting i feel it is very important to say two things. 1- take a first aid class with cpr and 2- with large groups have an emergency plan before riding. this reduces the risk of panic and helps with an emergency, if one should arise. i have been thinking about putting on a mountain bike specific 1st aid class and with enough interest maybe i will do one next year. p.s. have a speedy recovery victor.

  43. #43
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    Wilderness First Aid

    Wilderness First Aid training will be provided at the Norcal High School Racing Leadership Summit. This session will held on Saturday November 11 at Tamrancho as a part or the League's focus on developing important skills for coaches and volunteers. This session is open to all interested adults and is focused on application in mountain biking. I've done this course and it is very well presented.
    For mor information go to the website:
    http://www.norcalmtb.org/
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 11-05-2006 at 01:34 PM.

  44. #44
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    Victor, get well soon.

    Damn, those large MTBR rides have been claiming quite a bit of bones this year. Hopefully, that's the end of the streak.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  45. #45
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    Thanks for the update, Francis. In a wierd way, it's good to hear that his injury was broken bones and not torn ligaments and cartilage. Broken bones are painful and disabling but they heal completely, usually without any lingering after-effects. Dislocated joints are almost always problematic after the first incident and cartilage does not regrow.

    Victor, it was good to talk to you and see that you were taking the injury in stride. I'm glad you were with first class friends that looked after you and that your buddy Alex was with you and could get you to the ER. All the best for you my Nomad riding brother, let us know if there's anything we can do to help you and your family out. Maybe the silver lining to this cloud is a little extra bonus time with the family.

    Looks like you may be getting some titanium bling. I'm sorry it won't be on the bike.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDawg
    I've come across many MTBR riders who couldn't distinguish me from Joe Blow and hence the total lack of acknowledgement on their part-it's Ok.
    That's true. I don't know who you are and unless I've ridden with you. I don't know who most of the people are that post on this board but I do find a connection in seeing someone wearing the same "colors." It at least peaks my interest to ask who someone is. I met "loll" out at Demo a few weeks ago - he introduced himself after seeing Victor and me wearing our MTBR "colors."

    Quote Originally Posted by DDawg
    You want to vent -ask yourself why it took 1.5 hrs for the medics to show? Why didn't you send somebody down sooner to check on paramedic location? You knew it had rained and that the trails were muddy. Why didn't you post somebody a little further up the trail to avoid a collision with downed rider?
    We found out the answers to the rest of the questions soon after. It took longer for the paramedics to show because there were vehicles from the Trailhead bike demos parked in the way of the gate as well as poor trail conditions to get emergency vehicles up. We could hear the sirens echoing throughout the valley. When the sirens stopped, that's when we made the decision to send someone down - I volunteered.

    Up until that point, one of us had been standing farther up the trail to shout to fast moving riders to slow down while waiving our arms, etc. There was a bike layed crosswise in the trail as an attempted signal that something was ahead. Considering that is was a very blinged out Intense Spider 29" with full XTR kit, I would have probably had an accident flying down the trail as I stared at the bike instead of watching the trail...but that's another story.

    We did ask other riders to point the paramedics to the right place if they saw them. We did ask some riders that said that they were headed back to the lot to see if there were others wearing the MTBR "colors" and if they saw them to relay the basic rider down info.

    In retrospect, we could have asked any one or more of the people that came across us and voiced concern to do more than we asked them to do. We could have asked one of them to stand uphill farther to flag down other high-speed riders since it really did take both Alex and Francis to make sure that Victor was comfy while I rode down.

    So, without making this any bigger of a deal than it needs to be - OK, your eyesight is poor so didn't recognize Francis or the MTBR colors BUT if you had, would you have stopped to find out how you could have helped the situation?
    There are no stupid questions but there are A LOT of inquisitive idiots.


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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike
    Wilderness First Aid training will be provided at the Norcal High School Racing Leadership Summit. This session will held on Saturday Novemeber 10 at Tamrancho as a part or the League's focus on developing important skills for coaches and volunteers. This session is open to all interested adults and is focused on application in mountain biking. I've done this course and it is very well presented.
    For mor information go to the website:
    http://www.norcalmtb.org/
    A little clairification Mike - November 10 is a Friday, November 11 is a Saturday...which day?
    There are no stupid questions but there are A LOT of inquisitive idiots.


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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by norton55
    being an outsider, i hate to invade this tread. it sounds like you folks did really well with the situation, however, having over 20 years as an emt in the the wilderness setting i feel it is very important to say two things. 1- take a first aid class with cpr and 2- with large groups have an emergency plan before riding. this reduces the risk of panic and helps with an emergency, if one should arise. i have been thinking about putting on a mountain bike specific 1st aid class and with enough interest maybe i will do one next year. p.s. have a speedy recovery victor.
    I certainly agree. It's full time I renewed my first aid and CPR classes. I recently took a child/infant first aid/CPR class as one of the pre-birth readiness battery but it was not a certification level class.

    It's been a long time since I was a boy scout and a slightly less time since I was a lifeguard at a community pool but in either case, way too long and some of the methods do change over time.
    There are no stupid questions but there are A LOT of inquisitive idiots.


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  49. #49
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    Wilderness First Aid Date Correction

    Saturday November 11:
    www.norcalmtb.org

  50. #50
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    Hey Victor, get well fast and be sure to rehab religiously. You'll be back before you know it.

  51. #51
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    Sorry to hear about your misfortunes Victor.

  52. #52
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    Get well soon Victor, hope your doing well today and look forward to seeing ya on the trails soon.

    Sean
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    those firetruck horns can freak u out comen around a corner, and nice to meet some of you from here. but thanks to THC it was a great day

  54. #54
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    Sucks Victor, its always a bummer when someone gets hurt. Get well soon dude.

    I was parked next to Victor and the guys, we donated out chairs to the cause. A guy comes over, "Hey, do you need any medicine?"... Victor replies "No, no, thank you, we have plenty of drugs in the car" {/end russian accent}.

  55. #55
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    FYI - No Meds at Scene

    I'm not an EMT or med pro of any kind. But have been ER'd a few times, & at the scene for a few evacs. I have been told not to medicate serious injurises in case immediate surgery is required -meds might conflict. If you're in back country w/out communication, then you have to do what you think is right. I have no opinons, just relaying what I have heard.

    Good luck & mend soon.
    I like to bike.

  56. #56
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    Get well soon Victor.

  57. #57
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    Wink FYI: Wilderness Rescue/Protocols

    First and foremost, Victor, healing vibes bro, get well soon.

    Second:
    Read This! Bandwidth Triangulation Standards, link is within the post...
    It's something to keep in mind, save your old mobile phone.
    Last edited by Obi; 11-05-2006 at 08:11 PM.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan'ger
    That's true. I don't know who you are and unless I've ridden with you. I don't know who most of the people are that post on this board but I do find a connection in seeing someone wearing the same "colors."

    So, without making this any bigger of a deal than it needs to be - OK, your eyesight is poor so didn't recognize Francis or the MTBR colors BUT if you had, would you have stopped to find out how you could have helped the situation?
    Wearing the same colors as whom? Me? I wasn't wearing MTBR colors, nor could I pick out the team kit adornd by the faithful and obedient. It was quite clear that the situation was under control when I came by. There was more than ample time for the group that was there to gesture, speak, yell, wave arms, whatever if something more was needed. Nobody did. Most of you were off the side of the trail in the bushes if I recall. I looked at the rider-noted his demeanor, condition and shock treatment. I also looked half the group straight in the eyes. If Francois recognized me he said nothing-Was this his way of making a "connection"?

    It wouldn't have mattered if I'd known you or not I would have stopped had the situation warranted. I'm one of the guys that gives a "hello" while passing or asking "are you ok?" Whether you have a flat or just resting. You don't know me. Here's another little nugget for you to digest while you pass judgement. I was riding with a newb that is still learning how to prepare. Given the conditions and his experience I was concerned about his well being-so sorry I didn't stop to BS with you.

    Why is Francois giving prescription meds to an injured rider? Is he a doctor? Does he know the dangers in providing pain killers to an injured party? Since he's also now Mr. Safety and Mr. Etiquitte where was the splint? What about a space blanket? Shall we discuss his sanctioning the riding of illegal trails or maybe getting the entrance to demo closed?

    Yeah, people in glass houses....huh Francois

  59. #59
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    Not my business, but since this is an open forum, I really don't understand why Francis is dogging you DDawg. I'm glad the injured rider had friends to help him, but lets face it, if you hurt yourself, it is your problem, and not the problem of every Tom, Dick, and Harry who passes you by. Your response seemed ok to me. 2 cents only. Maybe Francis expected more, but such is life.

  60. #60
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    Duuuude!?

    Vic, sorry to hear it man. Big time bummer.

    Looking forward to having you check in and let us know everything is ok. Recovery time and all...

    At least it's at seasons end and not the start of summer. (My attempts at optimism )


    When you're healed and ready, let me know and we'll serve up a nice Pogo ride to get you back into the swing of things.

    Positive thoughts your way bortha!
    -eric-

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    You know what's weird? The strangest thought was going through my mind at the time....I was hoping help was arriving soon. Why you ask would this Heathen think that?

    I did not want to have to do a combat rescue carry of the dude or even be the 4th man in a rescue litter. Why that's cold blooded!

    Let me give you another nugget oh' MTBR faithful.

    You see a few weeks ago I strained my lower back which has evolved apparentl into a severely pinched nerve. The symptoms you dare ask? If I stand or walk I have excruciating pain down my left leg and my leg feels like it's asleep. If I walk more than a few feet I generally have to stop and concentrate/rest else I get nauseated from the pain. If I'm sitting or pedaling it's not such a big deal. So I ride.

    Francois, Dude you can bunny hop my sorry butt anytime you see me layed out on the trail. I doubt you have the skills though.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDawg
    ....
    Ok, that's enough explanation for me on why someone I knew, ddawg didn't ask to help or stop:

    - I could tell he was in obviously good hands
    - I checked for cell coverage, once I was away from them
    - I also stopped at the stuck rescue vehicles
    - I can't read shiat 10ft in front of me without my glasses
    - I've not kept up on the MTBR jersey of the day
    - francois didn't recognize me when he had a head injury
    - I was riding with a newb... I was concerned about his well being
    - I didn't stop to BS with you.
    - Those were guys were idiots - didn't send somebody down, didn't warn downhill riders, giving painkillers, didn't have a space blanket, didn't have a splint, they ride illegal trails and getting the entrance to demo closed
    - I did not want to have to do a combat rescue carry of the dude or even be the 4th man in a rescue litter.
    - I looked at the rider-noted his demeanor, condition and shock treatment. I also looked half the group straight in the eyes.
    - I strained my lower back which has evolved apparentl into a severely pinched nerve.
    - If I stand or walk I have excruciating pain down my left leg and my leg feels like it's asleep. If I walk more than a few feet I generally have to stop and concentrate/rest else I get nauseated from the pain.
    - If I'm sitting or pedaling it's not such a big deal. So I ride.

    Holy smokes. You obviously have issues to work out. It's ok you didn't stop or ask. I think it was for the better.

    We saw you for about 5 seconds as you slowed down to avoid hitting us and as you took that nice jump just below us. There's no need snow us with all this pathological stuff.

    I would recommend we leave this thread alone and not keep arguing. This is for Victor anyway. Also, you are starting to scare me.

    francois
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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois
    Ok, that's enough explanation for me on why someone I knew, ddawg didn't ask to help or stop:

    - I could tell he was in obviously good hands
    - I checked for cell coverage, once I was away from them
    - I also stopped at the stuck rescue vehicles
    - I can't read shiat 10ft in front of me without my glasses
    - I've not kept up on the MTBR jersey of the day
    - francois didn't recognize me when he had a head injury
    - I was riding with a newb... I was concerned about his well being
    - I didn't stop to BS with you.
    - Those were guys were idiots - didn't send somebody down, didn't warn downhill riders, giving painkillers, didn't have a space blanket, didn't have a splint, they ride illegal trails and getting the entrance to demo closed
    - I did not want to have to do a combat rescue carry of the dude or even be the 4th man in a rescue litter.
    - I looked at the rider-noted his demeanor, condition and shock treatment. I also looked half the group straight in the eyes.
    - I strained my lower back which has evolved apparentl into a severely pinched nerve.
    - If I stand or walk I have excruciating pain down my left leg and my leg feels like it's asleep. If I walk more than a few feet I generally have to stop and concentrate/rest else I get nauseated from the pain.
    - If I'm sitting or pedaling it's not such a big deal. So I ride.

    Holy smokes. You obviously have issues to work out. It's ok you didn't stop or ask. I think it was for the better.

    We saw you for about 5 seconds as you slowed down to avoid hitting us and as you took that nice jump just below us. There's no need snow us with all this pathological stuff.

    I would recommend we leave this thread alone and not keep arguing. This is for Victor anyway. Also, you are starting to scare me.

    francois
    You call somebody out on a public forum and now you just want it to go away? I guess I should get off and walk my bike every time I see a crash then following your logic. Snow job? Haha, is that how you cover for yourself now!

    You could have taken this offline to a PM, but you decided to call into question somebody's character then call them a liar and now you're afraid you may have to answer for your words? Truth hurts don't it.
    Last edited by DDawg; 11-05-2006 at 10:58 PM.

  64. #64
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    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by DDawg
    I guess I should get off and walk my bike every time I see a crash then following your logic
    Yes, that is exactally what you should do. Rider down, you help, end of story. If nothing else the last couple years have demonstrated that we are engaged in a dangerous passtime. If we can't depend on our fellow riders to help out who can we depend on?

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois
    Ok, that's enough explanation for me on why someone I knew, ddawg didn't ask to help or stop:

    - I could tell he was in obviously good hands
    ....


    ....
    Holy smokes. You obviously have issues to work out. It's ok you didn't stop or ask. I think it was for the better.
    I don't see why you are calling him out on a public forum? You say it is ok that that he didn't stop and others have corroborated that everything was under control. I will agree that I hope that everyone I ride with would be willing to help me out, but I do understand that people can stick with their own group.

    Trust me I've been on both sides of this equation. I've stopped and helped roadies, mtbrs, etc and always felt good about it. I also crashed hard in college bleeding all over the place with torn up hands and had to change a front tire and nobody stops. Was I pissed? Sure. But you know what? I can only control my own actions.

    The mountain bike world is a small one, so I hope that we can all help people when we the need arises and we have the opportunity and that people can help me when I need it. But that is the way I try to live life too.

    -Derek

    P.S. Getting back on topic, I really hope Victor heals quick. Foot injuries suck, bruised my heal playing ultimate and couldn't walk right for 4 months.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan'ger
    A little clairification Mike - November 10 is a Friday, November 11 is a Saturday...which day?
    Definitely Saturday. CLICK
    .
    .
    .
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  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0gre
    Yes, that is exactally what you should do. Rider down, you help, end of story. If nothing else the last couple years have demonstrated that we are engaged in a dangerous passtime. If we can't depend on our fellow riders to help out who can we depend on?
    Living is dangerous. I ride mostly within my boundaries and ensure those in my party are safe or aware of the risks. It's all calculated. Help do what exactly? Sorry, it was a judgement call, you weren't there.

    Remember my newb friend? He's done the Braille loop at least 6-7 times and was doing just that at the same time I was going down Corral. We agreed to the meeting location and knew from experience about the time we should expect to see each other. He chose his route after I expressed to him some of the steep sections he would encounter and should probably walk on Corral. He carrys a minimum of water, no food most of the time and no tools-his choice. He's a grown man and can learn the hard way if he chooses. I ended up meeting him at the yellow gate at about the time I predicted he'd show.


    And yes I have assisted/escorted 1 rider from this board to the hospital.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDawg
    Living is dangerous. I ride mostly within my boundaries and ensure those in my party are safe or aware of the risks. It's all calculated. Help do what exactly? Sorry, it was a judgement call, you weren't there.

    .
    Francis called you out on a public forum, but some good may come out of this. If it gets people thinking about paying more attention, then it's a good thing.

    We all have opinions about this, but it is never wrong to stop .... get off of your bike.. and ask a few questions when someone is hurt. It doesn't take that long and can only result in something positive.

    We all make mistakes. The bottom line is that you should ALWAYS stop at check things out for a few minutes just to be sure that things are under control. It's never wrong to do that.

    Your comment about life being dangerous just shows that you really don't understand how serious this issue is.

    You say what you did was a judgement call. Sometimes your judgement is wrong. Admit it and move on. Learn something.

  69. #69
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    Get well soon Victor.

    The other comments in this thread goes to show that a simple acknowledgment of "you guys got it under control" or something like that is all it takes sometimes. Even when you know the answer will most likely be "yes". It think that's all Francis was really getting at.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by dpdsurf
    Get well soon Victor.

    The other comments in this thread goes to show that a simple acknowledgment of "you guys got it under control" or something like that is all it takes sometimes. Even when you know the answer will most likely be "yes". It think that's all Francis was really getting at.
    EXACTLY!

    If I know you, specially from here at mtbr, I'd be bummed if you didn't. But hey, if you didn't recognize us, that's ok.

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  71. #71
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    Slipping

    Guys,

    I've slipped off of one of those log jumps and lost feeling in part of my back permanently. I'm ok, but I did crush some nerves.

    The jump was not one of those where you ride up on a board, like 2x6, but the rounded side of a fallen tree.

    Can't we staple some chicken wire or some sort of metal mesh on those jumps that will add lots of traction so we stop slipping off one side or the other and getting hurt?

    I've seen this done in Anguin on a couple log rides and felt much better about my traction going across the log.

    Perhaps we can schedule a maintanence day on an upcoming weekend?

    Thoughts?

    -Bullit
    "If an illegal alien is an undocumented immigrant, than a drug dealer is an unlicensed pharmicist."

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    Guys,

    I've slipped off of one of those log jumps and lost feeling in part of my back permanently. I'm ok, but I did crush some nerves.

    The jump was not one of those where you ride up on a board, like 2x6, but the rounded side of a fallen tree.

    Can't we staple some chicken wire or some sort of metal mesh on those jumps that will add lots of traction so we stop slipping off one side or the other and getting hurt?

    I've seen this done in Anguin on a couple log rides and felt much better about my traction going across the log.

    Perhaps we can schedule a maintanence day on an upcoming weekend?

    Thoughts?

    -Bullit
    Those slippery jumps always make me nervous. When I'm up there I don't go off of a jump unless its dry. That would be a good idea to put some type of traction maker on there. It also could hold together some of the wood.
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  73. #73
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    Excuses

    Quote Originally Posted by DDawg
    Living is dangerous. I ride mostly within my boundaries and ensure those in my party are safe or aware of the risks. It's all calculated. Help do what exactly? Sorry, it was a judgement call, you weren't there.
    No I wasn't there. I wasn't refering to any specific situation, just replying to this statement you made:
    I guess I should get off and walk my bike every time I see a crash then following your logic.
    And the answer to that question is yes you should stop, even if you don't know the person, even if there is someone there already. You should always take 10 seconds to see if a fellow rider needs a hand. How do you know you can't help if you don't stop to find out what's needed?

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    Guys,

    I've slipped off of one of those log jumps and lost feeling in part of my back permanently. I'm ok, but I did crush some nerves.

    The jump was not one of those where you ride up on a board, like 2x6, but the rounded side of a fallen tree.

    Can't we staple some chicken wire or some sort of metal mesh on those jumps that will add lots of traction so we stop slipping off one side or the other and getting hurt?

    I've seen this done in Anguin on a couple log rides and felt much better about my traction going across the log.

    Perhaps we can schedule a maintanence day on an upcoming weekend?

    Thoughts?

    -Bullit
    I just like to use the water breaks as dirt jumps.

    As far as those log piles on the side, I didn't see nuthin. Jumps that are not sanctioned by the forresters of Demo really shouldn't be there. If we call attention to them or organize around them, I believe they might just all get torn down.

    francois
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  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois
    Let's wish him well.

    francois
    Heal fast Victor.

    Cheers.

  76. #76
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    Hey Victor, get well soon.
    Last edited by sungchang; 11-06-2006 at 03:18 PM.

  77. #77
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    Any news? His surgery was yesterday morning.

    I wanted to call this morning but I stupidly did not store Victor's cell number when he called me a couple of weeks ago.
    There are no stupid questions but there are A LOT of inquisitive idiots.


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  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan'ger
    Any news? His surgery was yesterday morning.

    I wanted to call this morning but I stupidly did not store Victor's cell number when he called me a couple of weeks ago.
    Huge thanks for all in SDF

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by derek
    Saw it...thanks!
    There are no stupid questions but there are A LOT of inquisitive idiots.


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  80. #80
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    Bonking ... not feelin' well Ouch... Heal up!

    That looks like it had to smart a bit. YOW-CH!

    Here's to a speedy recovery and getting back on the bike ASAP.

    -B
    - -benja- -

  81. #81
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    Heal well comrade. I'm going to hit the vodka bottle I keep on my desk in your honor. Cheers.

  82. #82
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    Heal!

    Get well Victor.

    But geeeeez..........when someone with a Russian accent offers you uh, pharmaceuticals from their vehicle............take them up on it!!!!

    Hoping it's a short recovery. Broken bones always come back stronger. Like someone else pointed out, better the bone then connective tissue. True words those.

    I've read this thread obviously. I'll add this here since more folks may read it here than in a seperate thread.

    Emergency medical care/transport consists of Santa Cruz County AMR, Medic 4. They are coming from the Capitola area if they're not already staged. It's going to be a long wait in the best of situations. CDF fire may get there sooner, but can't transport.

    There are a number of things we could consider as cyclists in this and other popular areas. Pre-staged equipment such as all terrain gurneys. Having an ambulance 'stage' for a big riding event. Lots of stuff to consider.
    Do your part!!! At least be aware of what's going on around you while out riding Personally, I carry duct tape. Lots of it. Wrapped around my mini pump. Probably have about 6 feet of the stuff. Don't really notice it, but it's handy for making splints, fixing things. Use duct tape and some body armor and youve got a good quality splint.

    Lots of good suggestions in this thread. Lots more out there.

    Cheers
    Poaching Demo...that's why we can't have nice things...

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    I initially read this post to find a rider injured and in good hands. The post turned when a rider was accused of not participating in a "rider down situation" . Like most internet debates too much pertinent info. is left out. I thought what might I have done in this same situation ? I ride solo for the most part and tend to identify more w/ the solo rider than the large group riders - what I mean by this is I may greet a solo rider verbally where if encountering a group I may just wave. Had I come upon a rider down in the midst of others would I have slowed and passed or engaged in converation ? I can't say truthfully. I may have slowed and passed because I thought the situation was under control, I didn't realize the downed rider or others needed my emotional support. I do know that if there is assitance needed for whatever scenario and it is remotly evident that help is needed I am there for assitance. Seems like the rider down in this situation was well cared for but someone didn't follow someone's elses idea of their mtb ediquete.

  84. #84
    ballbuster
    Reputation: pimpbot's Avatar
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    Second that...

    Quote Originally Posted by 0gre
    Yes, that is exactally what you should do. Rider down, you help, end of story. If nothing else the last couple years have demonstrated that we are engaged in a dangerous passtime. If we can't depend on our fellow riders to help out who can we depend on?
    Basic ride ettiquite. Somebody is stopped for a mechanical, off the bike, hurt, whatever.. ALWAYS stop and ask if they are doing alright. It's basic.

    Leaving somebody with a flat or busted chain 15 miles from a trailhead late in the day can mean somebody spends the night in the forrest. Somebody resting at the side of the trail can be injured, in shock and in need of medical attention, and whizzing by at 20 MPH figuring they're okay can be a death sentense.

    Just take two seconds, slow down and ask.

  85. #85
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Sunrise's Avatar
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    Welcome to the club Victor, and get better fast! Hope we will both be riding together next season....maybe punisher next summer?

    - Felicia

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