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  1. #1
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    Trail Use and Parking Fee Program Announced at China Camp

    Got this email from MCBC today....

    Trail Use and Parking Fee Program Announced to Support China Camp State Park


    Trail use (foot, bike and equestrian) and parking fees for China Camp State Park have been announced by Friends of China Camp (FOCC). The non-profit, volunteer-run organization, which successfully raised more than $250,000 to prevent the park from being closed as California State Parks had proposed in early 2012, has been managing China Camp since July. The fees are part of an effort by FOCC to raise the funds necessary to meet annual management costs for the park of approximately $500,000.

    Annual and day-use passes, good for a 12-month period from date of purchase, are available via website, and at four electronic pay stations being installed soon at the park. Fees are as follows:

    Activity

    Annual Fee

    Day-use Fee

    Parking

    $60 (Includes One Trail Use Pass)

    $5

    Hiking/Running

    $35 Family
    $25 Individual

    $2 Per Person

    Cycling/Equestrian

    $55 Family
    $35 Individual

    $3 Per Person

    MCBC supports FOCCís fee program as an important source of funding to keep China Camp State Park and its popular trails, including some of the Bay Area's best legal singletrack, open. We recognize that maintaining the park is costly and encourage cyclists to purchase their trail-use passes, just as other park users are expected to.


    Your thoughts???

  2. #2
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    sucks but kind of a necessary evil. I think its a good program, just hopefully they don't strictly enforce it for people who forget to bring money or whatever reason.

  3. #3
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    They do this at rockville park, and they will ask you for your pass, but they are not super aholes about it, and if the worst they usually will do is tell you to go pay for the pass. I don't see them pulling stings and ticketing people.

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    Happy to pay for an annual pass - totally reasonable. To pony up a reasonable fee shows you support the park and access to it. I'm always fine with paying daily use and entrance fees for county and state parks.
    Last edited by three3nine; 12-22-2012 at 04:07 PM.

  5. #5
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    Rockville is not a State Park. China Camp is a State Park.

    I'm not sure why these folks think they have any right to charge anything. I see that they have pressures and needs but I don't see a right. It is akin to putting a toll booth on a road and demanding fees.

    That MCBC supports this means nothing in terms of a right.

    Tamarancho asks for a fee but that is owned by the Boy Scouts.

    These folks "own" nothing.

    What am I missing here?

    I have sent them an email to this effect and will report.
    I don't rattle.

  6. #6
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    I don't mind paying a fee. Seeing folks unload $3k bikes from $40k cars and park on the road to avoid a $5 parking fee annoyed the heck out of me.

    I definitely DO NOT like the different fees for runners and cyclists. Still, I'll pony up, as I always have.

    I'm not sure why these folks think they have any right to charge anything
    They have been recognized by State Parks as the organization responsible for operating China Camp.
    Friends of China Camp: Our Mission

  7. #7
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    Many of us chose to park in the State lot at CC as a way to support the park. We never paid to use the trails. Whether one "minds" paying is not the question.

    The site fgiraffe provides says nothing about a right to charge or collect fees for trail use.
    I don't rattle.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Rockville is not a State Park. China Camp is a State Park.

    I'm not sure why these folks think they have any right to charge anything. I see that they have pressures and needs but I don't see a right. It is akin to putting a toll booth on a road and demanding fees.

    That MCBC supports this means nothing in terms of a right.

    Tamarancho asks for a fee but that is owned by the Boy Scouts.

    These folks "own" nothing.

    What am I missing here?

    I have sent them an email to this effect and will report.
    I agree. Don't like this trend at all. I will not be buying a year pass and am unlikely to ride there if I must pay.

    Private land with real singletrack: no problem paying.

    Public land with semi-singletrack, fees imposed by some non-state organization I don't understand: I got a problem with that.
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    Given it is a state park, will the State Parks Pass that is good for all state parks qualify as already having paid?

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    I don't mind contributing and think its a good idea if the money goes towards the park. But I don't think it should be able to ticket users who don't have a pas. I think all parks should do this, as long as all you get is a slap on the hand for not having it. If you can at least collect on %60 of the users most of the time thats still much better than %0 like they are getting now. It should be a good faith kind of rule and not paying should be looked down upon, but I won't go there anymore if it means if I'm riding without a pass I'm going to get seriously harassed. I know that sounds a bit flakey, but thats just how I feel. I don't want to get stop and questioned about a pass at anytime while I'm riding. Whether I have one or not, that vibe does not belong on trails.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by grumblingcrustacean View Post
    Given it is a state park, will the State Parks Pass that is good for all state parks qualify as already having paid?
    Assuming it's a Golden Poppy or Vehicle Day Use Annual Pass, looks like the answer is nope! You gotta pay to be on the trails.

    "The pass is not valid at units operated by local government, private agencies or concessionaires. It is not valid for per-person entry or tour fees, camping, boat use, oversize vehicle fees, extra vehicle fees or supplemental fees such as swimming pools and sanitation dump use." Pass Descriptions

    Since they are charging a fee per person to use the trail, sounds like a "per-person entry fee." You paid. Now you gotta pay again.

    Might not even cover the parking. "The pass is not valid at units operated by local government, private agencies or concessionaires." I'd make a fuss if I had one of those passes and they tried to make me pay for parking. When you paid for the pass, it let you park at China Camp. Now? They may change the deal.

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    Are you guys serious? Compared to so many other states, there is such a shortage of decent riding here in the greater Bay Area, but despite this fact, and the fact that mostly us spends many thousands of dollars of gear, you would protest a modest annual fee? Perhaps try not to see it as a parking or use fee, but as simple support of a valuable local resource.

    I set aside mtb for years for another sport, and even founded almost ten years ago, and still manage one of the top US forums for the sport (bayareakiteboarding.com) and while it is still fun (kitesurfing), by and large the kitesurfing community can often be one of the most selfish and cheap sport communities. Many of them are longtime good friends, but trust me, by and large, they are unreliable, cheap, selfish and pretty much don't give much back at all and only want to get their windy session on the water. Beyond that, don't do much. Just sayin! Please, please tell me mtb hasn't gotten there!

    It looks like a $60 annual pass covers both parking and day use for 1. I might be wrong on the details, but In any case, regardless of the entity, we don't own it or manage it. I do not believe there are many people here who simply cannot afford it, so why would you not pay?

    I apologize for being outspoken, but this strikes a chord with me as I've spent almost a decade seeing financially stable and affluent people being incredibly cheap and selfish when it comes to any kind of support and participation in the well being of their own sport.

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  13. #13
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    You folks may recall much of this was discussed in this China Camp thread a few months ago.


    The site fgiraffe provides says nothing about a right to charge or collect fees for trail use.
    Mike you should try this "reading" thing I hear so much about:

    WILL FOCC HAVE SUFFICIENT FUNDS TO OPERATE CHINA CAMP?
    Yes. By entering into an operating agreement with California State Parks (CSP), FOCC will be able to retain all revenues generated from park use for the operation of China Camp. FOCC will still need to raise significant funds annually to supplement revenues from the park. Support of park users and the community will be critical to its success.

  14. #14
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    I donated to keep the park open. If it had closed, there would be no enforcement and we could still have ridden the trails. Now it's open and despite donating I'll need to pay a fee. That's irony right there.

    -slide

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie_G View Post
    Are you guys serious? Compared to so many other states, there is such a shortage of decent riding here in the greater Bay Area, but despite this fact, and the fact that mostly us spends many thousands of dollars of gear, you would protest a modest annual fee? Perhaps try not to see it as a parking or use fee, but as simple support of a valuable local resource.

    I set aside mtb for years for another sport, and even founded almost ten years ago, and still manage one of the top US forums for the sport (bayareakiteboarding.com) and while it is still fun (kitesurfing), by and large the kitesurfing community can often be one of the most selfish and cheap sport communities. Many of them are longtime good friends, but trust me, by and large, they are unreliable, cheap, selfish and pretty much don't give much back at all and only want to get their windy session on the water. Beyond that, don't do much. Just sayin! Please, please tell me mtb hasn't gotten there!

    It looks like a $60 annual pass covers both parking and day use for 1. I might be wrong on the details, but In any case, regardless of the entity, we don't own it or manage it. I do not believe there are many people here who simply cannot afford it, so why would you not pay?

    I apologize for being outspoken, but this strikes a chord with me as I've spent almost a decade seeing financially stable and affluent people being incredibly cheap and selfish when it comes to any kind of support and participation in the well being of their own sport.

    Oliver
    Yes. I am serious.

    Like I said, I have no problem paying to use private land. I've had season Tamarancho passes for years. I do have a problem with fees for a public park.

    If CA isn't going to have public parks - and I no longer consider China Camp a public park - it needs to completely get out of meddling with them and owning them. China Camp a private nature preserve with trails: fine, I'll pay a fee. China Camp a new housing development - at least my government would get some money out of the deal (which they'd then waste). But the current situation of pretending to have public parks but not really having them is a bunch of ********. It's also something I expect is here to stay.
    This is no time for levity. - Oliver Hardy

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by fgiraffe View Post
    You folks may recall much of this was discussed in this China Camp thread a few months ago.

    Mike you should try this "reading" thing I hear so much about:
    I read that. That does not address the right to charge for trail use.

    Interpreted in your fashion they could charge for any number of things (outhouse use, trash removal fee...), without justification, and have a right to the money. Thinking about it a bit, the contrivance of $2 for a walker and $3 for a biker resonates in that fashion.

    The term "generated from park use" is very general. There is no precedent for charging such fees in the 22 years I have ridden in Chain Camp.

    Do you see what mean?
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 12-21-2012 at 11:23 PM.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by slide mon View Post
    I donated to keep the park open. If it had closed, there would be no enforcement and we could still have ridden the trails. Now it's open and despite donating I'll need to pay a fee. That's irony right there.

    -slide


    Exactly how I feel, I donated as well because I support the park and wanted it to remain open and I would have no problem contributing to help fund the park. I simply don't think it is right to charge a day use/annual fee to access public trails regardless of your activity (biking/hiking/equestrian).

  18. #18
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    Well, being as they have no authority to ticket you for not paying (or no authority to collect on that ticket), then you may as well consider these fees as suggested donations.

    To those of you that donated: You may as well consider yourselves angel investors. Thank you for getting the ball rolling. And no, you aren't getting that money back. Maybe they'll give you an annual pass? You should totally ask for that.

  19. #19
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    Do you see what mean?
    OK Mike, now I do. I apologize for the snark.

    But I take all those things you mention to fall under "operating the park". They have been chosen by the State to operate the park, and now they bear the responsibility to do what they think is in the best interests of keeping the park open.

    FOCC is running China Camp. This is what they think is in the best interests of keeping China Camp open.


    I simply don't think it is right to charge a day use/annual fee to access public trails
    Well, the alternative is to close enough parks until the state can fund what it can afford. Is that any more "right"?

    Instead of going that route, the path that was chosen was to let private non-profit organizations take over operations of some parks. And now that that is happening, we are seeing the results.

    There is no magic source of money from the sky. The State of CA has a humongous money problem (for numerous and myriad reasons).

    I'm willing to give this system a chance. Do I love it with the taxes I pay? NO.
    Do I prefer it to having parks close? Maybe, let's see.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Rockville is not a State Park. China Camp is a State Park.

    I'm not sure why these folks think they have any right to charge anything. I see that they have pressures and needs but I don't see a right. It is akin to putting a toll booth on a road and demanding fees.

    That MCBC supports this means nothing in terms of a right.

    Tamarancho asks for a fee but that is owned by the Boy Scouts.

    These folks "own" nothing.

    What am I missing here?

    I have sent them an email to this effect and will report.
    These groups are indeed the Wolf in Sheep's clothing. MCBC is certainly NOT here to help with dirt cycling at all. If it doesn't have a flag and a basket MCBC wants to kill it. Look rationally at the track record: Stafford lake bike park? DOA. Bills trail open to bikes? DOA. Now fees for China Camp from the very same group that has been trying for ages to close the social network on the San Rafael side, a network that has been volunteer built for DECADES. These groups to not support dirt riding they only want to use it as a pawn to sacrifice.

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    Instead of labeling fees as designated for trail use, just look at it as fees for parking.

    "Annual Parking pass: $60.00
    Each Annual Parking Pass also comes with a trail use pass valid for up to 4 people."

    For those complaining about what right they have to charge or whether or not they "own" anything, it seems to me another poster was pretty fair in his assessment: "They have been recognized by State Parks as the organization responsible for operating China Camp." Which is a lot more than anyone here has been entrusted to do.

    Let"s explore a brief list of local and state parks that charge fees, which are not just for parking but also labeled as "Day Use". This is an important distinction, because yes, those fees generally, if not always, include parking, they are also presented as "Day Use" fees which in this case, are no different than "Trail Use".

    EBRPD:
    Lake Anza, Lake Temescal, Chabot, Crown Beach Alameda, and many more
    Marin: Muir Woods, Stinson, etc.

    It can be a big list if you want, but call it what you wan't, the reality is that pretty much all parks need funding. If you want to cheap out and not pay to support a local resource, go ride your $5k bike transported on your $30-40k car somewhere else, it's your right.

    Not long ago, a rider from NC posted, asking for info on some local rides. He settled on Marin and later part of what he posted is as follows:

    "The helpful guy at the bike shop told me that there are very few legal places to ride single track around here. Tamarancho was a great xc singletrack ride but I wish they had more terrain for us MTBers. I live in Asheville North Carolina and we have hundreds of miles of bike legal singletrack within 30 minutes of town. We have everything from fast and flowing to downright crazy. I am sorry that your MTB community is getting outgunned. We have such a strong presence back home and really reap the benefits."

    So, relatively speaking, compared to other areas, we don't have much. $60/year for parking and trail use for up to four people seems pretty fair to me.

  22. #22
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    Let me be clear...

    I did not say that supporting FOCC was a bad idea.

    I did not say I would not pay.

    Whether it is okay with "you" or a good idea, a small thing to ask, or supports badly needed riding areas is irrelevant.

    How much your bike is worth is irrelevant.

    I ask a simple question about the right to charge in a place that has never charged in my experience.


    By analogy:

    Skyline in Napa is State land managed by the City of Napa which charges $6 for parking. I don't know how that started or by what right they can do that. We always park and pay. Locals and frequenters enter from the College or other spots and do not pay.

    It is in that vein that I ask this question. It is a fair question, which I have asked of FoCC.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 12-22-2012 at 08:02 PM.
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    I am curious now that FOCC has operational control over CC is there any opportunity for them to change/expand trail access? I'm sure there's some sort of agreement on what the can and can't do but does anyone know if there's any opportunity for FOCC to make their own decisions about trail access?

    I would be so much more stoked on paying for trail access at CC if there were some opportunity to possibly develop or expand trail access on already existing trails there.

    This is a whole other can of worms, but when I think about paying for trail access, I would really like to see the possibility for different trail user groups to have some involvement and input on how the trails are managed.

    Anyone have more info on what latitude FOCC has in their new role??

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    I don't mind supporting, but...

    The only ranger currently out there (who was brought over from MMWD), told me that they are bringing more rangers from other areas for enforcement.
    I'm absolutely not interested in my money going towards anti bike enforcement and destruction of community built (and maintained) trails

  25. #25
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    Annadel SP will now be operated by Sonoma County Regional Parks--a somewhat similar situation to CC. As far as I know, the the only difference is that we will eventually have to pay to park at the dirt lot at Cobblestone. And if you have a pass for the Regional Parks (Spring Lake, Doran Beach, etc.), it'll be good for Annadel too. Seems fine to me.

    I haven't heard anything about trail use fees. That can be a slippery slope--especially charging different amounts depending on how you're using the trail. Certain users might be more inclined to think that since they paid more to ride the trail than someone who's walking the same trail, they should get right of way. Who knows? Maybe they'll sell a "right of way" pass, so you can mow people down
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tahoe_Rocks View Post
    The only ranger currently out there (who was brought over from MMWD), told me that they are bringing more rangers from other areas for enforcement.
    I'm absolutely not interested in my money going towards anti bike enforcement and destruction of community built (and maintained) trails
    That is exactly what will happen. All done by the FOCC and MCBC. FOCC has already attempted to destroy the social trail network even off of state property.

    Pretty sad as this is my favorite winter riding areas and the location of my first real mountain bike ride when I was 15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuruAtma View Post
    Who knows? Maybe they'll sell a "right of way" pass, so you can mow people down
    Lexus Lanes in Annadel? Moooooo!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tahoe_Rocks View Post
    The only ranger currently out there (who was brought over from MMWD), told me that they are bringing more rangers from other areas for enforcement.
    I'm absolutely not interested in my money going towards anti bike enforcement and destruction of community built (and maintained) trails
    China Camp State Park's Facebook page recently (on 12/12/2012) announced that Ranger Bob Birkland, formerly at Annadel, was being transferred to China Camp. Not exactly sure he is a friend of the bike:

    http://www.watchsonomacounty.com/201...el-state-park/

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    Another agree to disagree on this one...

    Quote Originally Posted by Plim View Post
    I agree. Don't like this trend at all. I will not be buying a year pass and am unlikely to ride there if I must pay.

    Private land with real singletrack: no problem paying.

    Public land with semi-singletrack, fees imposed by some non-state organization I don't understand: I got a problem with that.

    How about I post a copy of my 540 form on my dash as a parking permit. BS, I'll ride in.
    Just like the fee lot they tried on San Pedro Road, south side, didn't work out too well, it's been empty ever since that sign went up. BTW, where did the 54 mil go?
    Last edited by rglsr; 12-22-2012 at 07:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    These groups are indeed the Wolf in Sheep's clothing. MCBC is certainly NOT here to help with dirt cycling at all. If it doesn't have a flag and a basket MCBC wants to kill it. Look rationally at the track record: Stafford lake bike park? DOA. Bills trail open to bikes? DOA. Now fees for China Camp from the very same group that has been trying for ages to close the social network on the San Rafael side, a network that has been volunteer built for DECADES. These groups to not support dirt riding they only want to use it as a pawn to sacrifice.
    Hey guys I just want to say that I feel like an idiot for writing this. I was upset about what is happening at China Camp but I was mostly upset about how mountain bikers have been treated in Marin and the Bay Area. MCBC is here to change things for the better. Bills will open, I have high hopes for Stafford lake and because of MCBCs hard work I know Marin will be a better place. I want to apologize to MCBC and anyone else I have offended. I am still very concerned about China Camp but I had no right to say any of this plus I was totally wrong. Hopefully this thread will fade away

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    Well, I give more credit for Bill's to IMBA NorCal and local longtime advocates; you know who you are.

    MCBC taking on dirt is a good thing.They have tools, relationships , money, and expertise to take this on.
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    i would like to be supportive of this, but i just can't. are these state parks or not? if so, they should be paid for out of the highest state income taxes collected in the entire united states (by far). if private, i would understand charging fees for services. it doesn't mean i won't pay when i ride there, but i think this entire situation is ridiculous. where does all the money go?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    snip...

    China Camp is a State Park.

    I'm not sure why these folks think they have any right to charge anything. I see that they have pressures and needs but I don't see a right. It is akin to putting a toll booth on a road and demanding fees.

    That MCBC supports this means nothing in terms of a right.

    Tamarancho asks for a fee but that is owned by the Boy Scouts.

    These folks "own" nothing.

    snip...
    I agree with you. And I'm concerned about several things.


    1. There's an organization here that's private and is taking over management of a state park. A step towards privatization of our state parks is a bad thing.
    2. Imbalanced fees. Why charge more for cyclists than hikers/runners/etc? That just reeks of bias.
    3. MCBC supporting this amazes me. These fees (and imbalanced) are not helping cyclists. I thought MCBC was a group supporting cycling? Maybe not so much mountain biking.
    4. The multi-million dollar slush funds and waste that is being found within the state park bureaucracy tells me there's a need to clean up that act before having the users of the park paying for the graft and waste.
    5. How are the "fees" being used? Show me where the fees will be used, why they are imbalanced, and a plan. At the moment the fees could go towards building new trails that are off limits to cyclists. Nothing says that couldn't happen. Will FOCC end up skimming off large management fees? Could there be a FOCC slush fund to mirror the state parks?
    6. Impact on educational groups that would like to use the park. For example, Trips for Kids and the High School MTB teams are directly impacted. Look at the huge benefits these groups provide for kids. China Camp is one of the few places in Marin that offers easy access to the trails. These fees will now place barriers to these groups.


    Jeesh, I feel I could go on and on.

    At the moment I feel this is a bad precedent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanskellner View Post
    I agree with you. And I'm concerned about several things.

    [*] Impact on educational groups that would like to use the park. For example, Trips for Kids and the High School MTB teams are directly impacted. Look at the huge benefits these groups provide for kids. China Camp is one of the few places in Marin that offers easy access to the trails. These fees will now place barriers to these groups.[/LIST]

    Jeesh, I feel I could go on and on.

    At the moment I feel this is a bad precedent.
    That is what was striking me the most... from a social justice standpoint your are essentially making it more difficult for lower income families to take advantage of the recreational and fitness opportunities at China Camp... a state park. The message that comes across, while unintentional, marginalizes groups who cannot afford to pay fees to be outside.

  35. #35
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    I feel the best thing we could do as MTBers is join FOCC. Also join the bike patrol they want to set up. I'd rather have a pleasant chat with a fellow rider than a "run in" with an overzealous hiker who has hiking sticks, authority and wants to see my hall pass.

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    I wonder if they will try to ban the free parking on the road and force everyone onto the "pay to park" lot.

    How many members of FOCC are mtn bike friendly? I know several of the neighbors had a very NIMBY attitude about mtn bikers. They claim due to the sheer number of mtn bikers, they can no longer hike or ride horses on the trails. They really want to get ride of mtn bikers.

    Historically, the area was a motorcycle off-road area back in the early 60's. There were races and even an Trans-AMA motocross race. Participants included 5 time world champion Roger DeCoster. The area was turned into a state park and the motorcycle club relocated, but many of the original trails were old motorcycle trails.

    I hope this doesn't go down the same path as off-road motorcycle riding. We pay fees for OHV areas and trail maintenance. The fees increase and they are used for enforcement to write tickets. More fees, more cops on the trails.

  37. #37
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    So what ever happened to the $53 million that was found. Was it just an accounting error?

    Ironic is we keep raising taxes and creating new fees. Now I have to pay to use the state park in my backyard.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    I feel the best thing we could do as MTBers is join FOCC. Also join the bike patrol they want to set up. I'd rather have a pleasant chat with a fellow rider than a "run in" with an overzealous hiker who has hiking sticks, authority and wants to see my hall pass.
    Great idea. Because if some tries to write me a ticket, he better have a badge and be a sworn officer in the state of California.

  39. #39
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    A "ticket" begs any authority to collect fines or exclude usage. That requires power and leverage which goes back to any right to charge, collect. It is based on the question of any authority to control access.
    I don't rattle.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    These groups are indeed the Wolf in Sheep's clothing. MCBC is certainly NOT here to help with dirt cycling at all. If it doesn't have a flag and a basket MCBC wants to kill it. Look rationally at the track record: Stafford lake bike park? DOA. Bills trail open to bikes? DOA. Now fees for China Camp from the very same group that has been trying for ages to close the social network on the San Rafael side, a network that has been volunteer built for DECADES. These groups to not support dirt riding they only want to use it as a pawn to sacrifice.
    I'm on the MCBC Off-Road Committee, and this sort of hyperbole is pretty silly and unhelpful.

    1. Stafford Lake is hardly DOA - its CEQA document was approved, and the funding details are currently being worked out and should be settled in the next few months. The passage of Measure A was an important step in helping to move this project forward.

    2. The EIR for Bill's Trail was approved, and the time period for which the EIR could be challenged passed without a lawsuit from MCL or other groups. Now that that hurdle is cleared, State Parks is in the process of moving forward with implementation, which will require some regrading work along the trail that will likely have to be contracted out.

    3. The current leadership of FOCC is pretty different from the original group that helped to establish CC as a park in the first place, and is quite aware that the support of the mountain biking community is critical to stewardship at CC. I suggest joining FOCC and becoming part of the dialogue; its leadership is still trying to find its way re: MTB issues (they tried to hold an MTB event the day after some other huge MTB event, if I remember correctly, not realizing that not many people would have the energy to show up).
    Quote Originally Posted by jbt56
    Are you a whiny Marin liberal, or a hand-wringing Berkeley liberal?

  41. #41
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    I for one have no problem paying a fee to the FOCC for parking and riding. For me, the $10-12 (figuring me and my son) isn't that much considering it costs me about $25 in gas to take my truck out there and a $5 bridge toll. When China camp was going to be closed, the FOCC stepped up and came up with a plan. By that token however, I don't have a problem paying a small fee to use state parks because they are subsidized and many don't use them; I don't expect others to pay for my enjoyment.

    I do have a big issue with the state parks department. The FOCC had to step up because there was going to be a $120 million shortfall. As we all know, it turns out the state parks had $54 million hidden in bank accounts. Now that the money has been "found" the State should pay a significant amount to FOCC for its management of the park.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piranha426 View Post
    I'm on the MCBC Off-Road Committee, and this sort of hyperbole is pretty silly and unhelpful.

    3. The current leadership of FOCC is pretty different from the original group that helped to establish CC as a park in the first place, and is quite aware that the support of the mountain biking community is critical to stewardship at CC. I suggest joining FOCC and becoming part of the dialogue; its leadership is still trying to find its way re: MTB issues (they tried to hold an MTB event the day after some other huge MTB event, if I remember correctly, not realizing that not many people would have the energy to show up).

    Great news re #1 & #2. thanks for the update.

    #3? Well, the FOCC have to learn about mtb'ers and advocacy somehow. I don't blame mountain bikers for being how they are. that isa waste of time. Outreach for any group needs to be understood and tailored to work well.
    I don't rattle.

  43. #43
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    If they had any understanding of mtn bikers, they'd open a Lemonade stand that sold beer.

    Or sell trail use coupons for 1/2 off their first beer at Marin Brewing Company.

    Fully funded for the year by July.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piranha426 View Post
    I'm on the MCBC Off-Road Committee, and this sort of hyperbole is pretty silly and unhelpful.

    1. Stafford Lake is hardly DOA - its CEQA document was approved, and the funding details are currently being worked out and should be settled in the next few months. The passage of Measure A was an important step in helping to move this project forward.

    2. The EIR for Bill's Trail was approved, and the time period for which the EIR could be challenged passed without a lawsuit from MCL or other groups. Now that that hurdle is cleared, State Parks is in the process of moving forward with implementation, which will require some regrading work along the trail that will likely have to be contracted out.

    3. The current leadership of FOCC is pretty different from the original group that helped to establish CC as a park in the first place, and is quite aware that the support of the mountain biking community is critical to stewardship at CC. I suggest joining FOCC and becoming part of the dialogue; its leadership is still trying to find its way re: MTB issues (they tried to hold an MTB event the day after some other huge MTB event, if I remember correctly, not realizing that not many people would have the energy to show up).
    Ya. I said I was a stupid head and I was really sorry. Post number 30. I also bought TB a beer and we talked about it. And I'm sorry and I'm stupid. I just really love that area and there is some serious blood, sweat, tears and joyfull noises at stake. Loads of memories on that ridge from 15 years old and on. I was scared and upset about how MTBers are treated. I've seen favorite trails disappear before...

  45. #45
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    When you dig so much dirt your brain turns to mud. Been there!
    I don't rattle.

  46. #46
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    If I am paying 50% more than the hiker, I have the right of way!
    STRAVA!!!!!!!!

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTT77 View Post
    If I am paying 50% more than the hiker, I have the right of way!
    STRAVA!!!!!!!!
    But you're paying the same as me. Wilbur, get ready for a physics lesson.
    - Mr Ed.



    (There seems to be a new species of horse in Marin, the ass is on top.)

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevXR View Post
    But you're paying the same as me. Wilbur, get ready for a physics lesson.
    - Mr Ed.
    Ha! That's good point. F=M*A

    But, you underestimate a horse's "fight or flight" reaction when they see me coming around the corner, screaming, wearing a grizzly bear head for a helmet.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTT77 View Post
    Ha! That's good point. F=M*A

    But, you underestimate a horse's "fight or flight" reaction when they see me coming around the corner, screaming, wearing a grizzly bear head for a helmet.
    You really don't know that much about horses. Trained right, a mtn bike would be nothing. Bring it.
    Plus, my draft horse has a medical marijuana card for his glaucoma. He ain't scared. Kind of slow and watches birds a lot...


    (Just kidding. My friend does have one of the jousting horses.)

  50. #50
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    The bear head got me thinking. I can honestly say that I have put on a full gorilla suit and ran around China Camp in a "Hunting for Big Foot" children's birthday party. All the children were given cameras and they tried to take photos of me. Several other adults were shaking bushes to misdirect the children. It was a fun day as we kept them running around all over the park. $2 per kid or adult, how much for a gorilla?

  51. #51
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    I will ride all of these state parks that my taxes pay for. Simple. I buy passes at private places only. Will not pay to park in MOST state parks(pay to park, about 1/4 of the time at Annadel). I buy Tamarancho Pass each year. Poach State parks? I guess.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoolie View Post
    Poach State parks? I guess.
    plus, racing away from the rangers sounds like interval training to me. Wear a gopro and hammer, I wanna see vids!

  53. #53
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    Some of you guys are too much. Many repeatedly say that they will pay for private areas but not for state or county parks, etc. I imagine some of you can justify it to yourselves because you pay state taxes (which incidentally are fractional compared to federal) and despite massive cuts to parks across the board, they don't need your support and your feeling of entitlement exempts you. Other protests are based on the question of "What right do they have?" FOCC has been appointed by the state to manage the park, not any of you who have been protesting over the pittance of a fee to enjoy the park.

    In Japan, France and Italy, among other places, the simple act of driving on the freeway tends to be very expensive as all freeways are toll roads, not to mention that gas is around $8/gallon. That's just how it is and people deal with it and don't complain. The point is that in that case it's for essential everyday needs and day to day life. So here, we have so many things that are taken for granted, and people don't want to pay a few bucks to enjoy a great local recreational resource that many do take for granted.

    Spoiled whiny mountain bikers with 4 or 5k bikes on 30-50k rides crying about a few dollars to support a park. What do you spend at Starbucks or on an IPA? Claiming it's the principle or politics and demanding answers on the basis of whose right is it to charge? Just pony up, support the park and quit crying.

  54. #54
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    You should re-read my post

    I am not complaining or entitled. Just stated the facts. I grew up in CA riding parks since BMX days in 1975. I will continue to ride them for free (minus my $1500 mo in state taxes I pay). I do not see any toll roads, and fuel is $4 gal here. State parks are generally free to walk/ride in. A fool and his money are soon parted, as the saying goes. I love how people are trying to SAVE state parks and it turns out that our officials are HIDING millions. Classic. Guns or butter. Parks or prisons. Does not really matter to me any more as I slide into the latter half of my life. I will continue to ride Most State parks for free. Often. You can pay more if you want. I respect your opinion, it is different than mine.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie_G View Post

    Some of you guys are too much. Many repeatedly say that they will pay for private areas but not for state or county parks, etc. I imagine some of you can justify it to yourselves because you pay state taxes (which incidentally are fractional compared to federal) and despite massive cuts to parks across the board, they don't need your support and your feeling of entitlement exempts you. Other protests are based on the question of "What right do they have?" FOCC has been appointed by the state to manage the park, not any of you who have been protesting over the pittance of a fee to enjoy the park.
    Let me be clear...

    I did not say that supporting FOCC was a bad idea.

    I did not say I would not pay.

    Whether it is okay with "you" or a good idea, a small thing to ask, or supports badly needed riding areas is irrelevant.

    How much your bike is worth is irrelevant.

    I ask a simple question about the right to charge in a place that has never charged in my experience.


    By analogy:

    Skyline in Napa is State land managed by the City of Napa which charges $6 for parking. I don't know how that started or by what right they can do that. We always park and pay. Locals and frequenters enter from the College or other spots and do not pay.

    It is in that vein that I ask this question. It is a fair question, which I have asked of FoCC.
    I don't rattle.

  56. #56
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    I really don't like to pay at Skyline NAPA

    But I do sometimes pay to support. Last thur a worker was driving quad around and doing some trailwork while ice was still on parts. Awesome. I am due to pay there, it has been a few too many free times, and that reminded me to pay up. I know where some of the $ is going at Skyline. China camp trails have a dearth of state workers with shovels. San Quentin is a few miles down the road, those guys should be working those trails!

  57. #57
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    I am told by some long time CC denizens that the upper trail, now Bay View, was once known as Convict as the guys at Q built it.
    I don't rattle.

  58. #58
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    I ask a simple question about the right to charge in a place that has never charged in my experience.
    The right to charge was granted in CA Bill 1589, aka California State Park Stewardship Act of 2012, authored last February and signed into law by the guv on 09/25/12.

    Look at section 5080.42, or search for "operating agreement".

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    I am told by some long time CC denizens that the upper trail, now Bay View, was once known as Convict as the guys at Q built it.
    Almost true. Bayveiw was built with help from inmates of the Delta Crew, State Park workers and a core group of volunteers who later built Tamarancho. We started building Tamarancho 19 years ago with B-17. At the time the state would only allow low risk inmates to volunteer for work duty outside of the prision. No way in heck they would let inmates from the Q out to help with anything.

  60. #60
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    Always read the fine print...

    Quote Originally Posted by fgiraffe View Post
    The right to charge was granted in CA Bill 1589, aka California State Park Stewardship Act of 2012, authored last February and signed into law by the guv on 09/25/12.

    Look at section 5080.42, or search for "operating agreement".
    5019.92. (a) The department shall develop a prioritized action
    plan to increase revenues and collection of user fees at state parks.
    The plan shall include strategies for generating new revenues and
    fee collection methodologies at state parks.......
    Last edited by squareback; 01-10-2013 at 05:53 PM.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Let me be clear...

    I did not say that supporting FOCC was a bad idea.

    I did not say I would not pay.

    Whether it is okay with "you" or a good idea, a small thing to ask, or supports badly needed riding areas is irrelevant.

    How much your bike is worth is irrelevant.

    I ask a simple question about the right to charge in a place that has never charged in my experience.


    By analogy:

    Skyline in Napa is State land managed by the City of Napa which charges $6 for parking. I don't know how that started or by what right they can do that. We always park and pay. Locals and frequenters enter from the College or other spots and do not pay.

    It is in that vein that I ask this question. It is a fair question, which I have asked of FoCC.
    You just copied and pasted your "Let me be clear" post from weeks ago. You have your answer now, since it appears FoCC never got back to you. ("I have sent them an email to this effect and will report.")

    "The right to charge was granted in CA Bill 1589, aka California State Park Stewardship Act of 2012, authored last February and signed into law by the guv on 09/25/12.

    Look at section 5080.42, or search for "operating agreement"."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FKFW View Post
    Almost true. Bayveiw was built with help from inmates of the Delta Crew, State Park workers and a core group of volunteers who later built Tamarancho. We started building Tamarancho 19 years ago with B-17. At the time the state would only allow low risk inmates to volunteer for work duty outside of the prision. No way in heck they would let inmates from the Q out to help with anything.
    Thank you!
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  63. #63
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    That FoCC has not gotten back to me says nothing about the discussion.

    Between squareback and fgiraffe this is still is not clear.
    Then there is the issue of different fees for different users.

    Clearly there will be pushback on fees.

    I'm not sure this is a done deal.
    I don't rattle.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie_G View Post
    Some of you guys are too much. Many repeatedly say that they will pay for private areas but not for state or county parks, etc. I imagine some of you can justify it to yourselves because you pay state taxes (which incidentally are fractional compared to federal) and despite massive cuts to parks across the board, they don't need your support and your feeling of entitlement exempts you. Other protests are based on the question of "What right do they have?" FOCC has been appointed by the state to manage the park, not any of you who have been protesting over the pittance of a fee to enjoy the park.
    Tax paying Californian's are -in effect- paying twice to access public lands. Furthermore, the tiered fees are inherently unfair simply because FOCC "thinks" that bikes should pay more for -and I can only suppose here- that they do more damage; an opinion not based on any modicum of science. Therefore I will also eschew paying these "fees."

    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie_G View Post
    In Japan, France and Italy, among other places, the simple act of driving on the freeway tends to be very expensive as all freeways are toll roads, not to mention that gas is around $8/gallon. That's just how it is and people deal with it and don't complain. The point is that in that case it's for essential everyday needs and day to day life. So here, we have so many things that are taken for granted, and people don't want to pay a few bucks to enjoy a great local recreational resource that many do take for granted.
    Nice straw-man argument. The Japanese and Euros may pay more to drive, but they also have a public transportation system that allows them to go almost anywhere they want; affordably, rapidly, often, and with their bikes, whereas it is virtually impossible to do any of these things in the states as there is very limited transportation options, even fewer that allow bikes (and those that do only have room for 2 in most cases), these few services don't run frequently, they rarely go anywhere near where we ride, and in most cases, you'll spend 4 times more time getting to your ride and home -while changing and waiting between multiple buses- than actually riding...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie_G View Post
    Spoiled whiny mountain bikers with 4 or 5k bikes on 30-50k rides crying about a few dollars to support a park. What do you spend at Starbucks or on an IPA? Claiming it's the principle or politics and demanding answers on the basis of whose right is it to charge? Just pony up, support the park and quit crying.
    Way to throw out stereotypes. Most riders don't have 5K bikes or 50K rides. For those that do, are we supposed to believe that they should just spend, spend, spend without thinking about what they are spending it on? This statement alone makes me suspect that you are not a mountain biker. Whether or not you are, you shouldn't make gross generalizations based on some bias you may hold. It doesn't matter how wealthy, poor, or whether or not they drink coffee; just because they ride a bike doesn't mean that they have an obligation to pay twice -or that they should pay more- to use public property.

    Here's another thing: since I live in Marin these days, I have a pass to Tamarancho. Now I'm "required" to buy one for CC. There's talk of Annadel SP may be going the same way, and there are plenty of people out there that think that all public parks should be "managed" in this way. Conjecture would suggest that Marin Water, Mid Pen, EBRP and organizations farther afield will follow suit. So, how many different passes will I have to pay for to ride within a 2 hour drive (drive of course, since I can't realistically use public transport) of my home and how much will they all cost?
    Last edited by huntermos; 01-10-2013 at 10:37 PM.

  65. #65
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    second that....

    Quote Originally Posted by Plim View Post
    Yes. I am serious.

    Like I said, I have no problem paying to use private land. I've had season Tamarancho passes for years. I do have a problem with fees for a public park.

    If CA isn't going to have public parks - and I no longer consider China Camp a public park - it needs to completely get out of meddling with them and owning them. China Camp a private nature preserve with trails: fine, I'll pay a fee. China Camp a new housing development - at least my government would get some money out of the deal (which they'd then waste). But the current situation of pretending to have public parks but not really having them is a bunch of ********. It's also something I expect is here to stay.
    We the people own the park, and we the people pay taxes to maintain the park. I don't think I should have to pay a day fee to use the park I (we) already own and pay taxes for with everybody else.

    I'll gladly accept a tax hike (I in fact voted for one), donate money, or help out with maintenance work, but this is silly.
    Last edited by pimpbot; 01-10-2013 at 10:48 PM.

  66. #66
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    As usual, I will be paying mostly zero.

    Picture a goose egg in your head.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by squareback View Post
    5019.92. (a) The department shall develop a prioritized action
    plan to increase revenues and collection of user fees at state parks.
    The plan shall include strategies for generating new revenues and
    fee collection methodologies at state parks.......
    Read the rest of that same sentence:
    and may include, but is not necessarily limited to, all of the following..

    squareback I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Please clarify. Sincerely. 5019.92 is not contradictory to 5080.42.


    Between squareback and fgiraffe this is still is not clear
    Mike, what is not clear? You keep asking over and over who gives FoCC the right to charge. That law, amended by the legislature and signed by the governor gives the state the right to designate non-governmental entities the right to operate the park. FoCC is the operator for China Camp. The law allows 20 parks in the state to be operated like this.


    Tax paying Californian's are -in effect- paying twice to access public lands.
    Correct. Because the state has said the first payment is insufficient. They crudely communicated this by threatening to close 70 parks. The situation sucks. CA has a deep-seated, multi-facted $$$ problem. I'm not arguing that anyone las to like this solution, or that the state does not waste a huge amount of money, or State Parks doesn't hide millions away (!!!) or that things should be different. But this is the current reality.
    Last edited by fgiraffe; 01-11-2013 at 10:22 AM. Reason: bold, for emphasis!

  68. #68
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    Did anyone catch that California is projecting an $850mm budget SURPLUS for 2013? News story I read said "Democrats are planning to use the surplus to restore funding for programs that were cut"

    And guess what - I'm not paying to ride CC.

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    Hey everyone,

    Thought I'd let you know that FOCC has already collected over $2,000 in just 7 days, mostly coming from mountain bike passes, and they couldn't be happier! I'm going to buy mine now. And if Annadel goes this route I'll happily buy that pass too. Support our best riding places!

  70. #70
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    I'm curious, would you willingly buy a permit to ride the trails in Henry Cowell State Park that are adjacent to UCSC? What if you could park in the main parking area as part of that permit, and legitimately cross the river and head west, and never face the risk of a ticket?

    Patty
    "...So forget all your duties, oh yeah! Fat bottomed girls, they'll be riding today..." Freddie Mercury

  71. #71
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    I will gladly pay to ride China Camp. However, I am still very concerned that the rates are different for hikers and mountain bikers. I've never even seen a horse in 20 years of riding at CC. I think the different rates enforce the incorrect thinking that mountain bikes some how cost the parks more money. Marin has a long standing tradition of making the mountain bike a scapegoat for poor trail design.

    Again I'm not going to poach China Camp. If I wasn't so busy with the flow trail build and I was actually riding I would join the bike patrol that FOCC are going to set up. If you are worried about what is going to happen at CC the best thing to do would be join the FOCC and make a difference from inside the organization. Quoting state law and claiming you will poach the park are equally unproductive. Be the change you want at CC, man up and do something about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    I will gladly pay to ride China Camp. However, I am still very concerned that the rates are different for hikers and mountain bikers. I've never even seen a horse in 20 years of riding at CC. I think the different rates enforce the incorrect thinking that mountain bikes some how cost the parks more money. Marin has a long standing tradition of making the mountain bike a scapegoat for poor trail design.

    Again I'm not going to poach China Camp. If I wasn't so busy with the flow trail build and I was actually riding I would join the bike patrol that FOCC are going to set up. If you are worried about what is going to happen at CC the best thing to do would be join the FOCC and make a difference from inside the organization. Quoting state law and claiming you will poach the park are equally unproductive. Be the change you want at CC, man up and do something about it.
    I have not seen an explanation for the price difference yet, so I'll hold off judgement for now. I beleive FOCC is preparing a respond to the many questions people have about the pass system. It should appear in the MCBC newsletter as soon as it's available. It's a good group of people over at FOCC. Heck they raised 1/2 a million dollars to keep the park open and they've bent over backwards to enfranchise mountain bikers in the process.

    BTW, there's a Trail Work Day coming up at China Camp on Sunday, January 27. You can get the details at MCBC website, marinbike dot org. Hope to see you out there!

  73. #73
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    How about this. I pay the fee and FOCC opens up the "backside" of china camp and adds trail signs, maintains the trails, etc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoBalance View Post
    How about this. I pay the fee and FOCC opens up the "backside" of china camp and adds trail signs, maintains the trails, etc?
    It's not their land.

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    Speaking of China Camp, how are the trails looking for riding this weekend?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninertom View Post
    I have not seen an explanation for the price difference yet,
    I talked to the head of FOCC and asked about the price difference. He said that he was pressured to not charge a fee for hikers at all which he did not agree to. The reason mountain bikers pay more is that they use more of the park than a hiker would. I cannot argue with that. I don't like the price differences but I think the FOCC is doing a great job in saving a very important state park. I just hope that they can keep it up. Raising 500k is tough enough, imagine doing it year after year.
    I also heard that that the Terrapin Family Band will be playing the fundraiser in June at China Camp Village. Don't miss it!

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarinRR View Post
    Speaking of China Camp, how are the trails looking for riding this weekend?
    I did a frontside loop yesterday (all of Shoreline and Bay View) and there was a lot of surface water running on the trails, but very little mud. Fenders would have been nice. Visibility from the vista points was incredible.

    The pay station at the Miwok entrance didn't seem to have a functioning card reader. Fortunately I had some small bills.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninertom View Post
    I have not seen an explanation for the price difference yet, so I'll hold off judgement for now. I beleive FOCC is preparing a respond to the many questions people have about the pass system. It should appear in the MCBC newsletter as soon as it's available. It's a good group of people over at FOCC. Heck they raised 1/2 a million dollars to keep the park open and they've bent over backwards to enfranchise mountain bikers in the process.

    BTW, there's a Trail Work Day coming up at China Camp on Sunday, January 27. You can get the details at MCBC website, marinbike dot org. Hope to see you out there!
    Could someone enlighten me on how FOCC bent over backwards to enfranchise moutain bikers? No sarcasm intended.

    I have mixed feelings about this group and do not intend to give them any money at this point. That's because the quality of the "product" (ie: trail) I'd be paying for will be reduced as the funds and volunteers are used in an attempt to close trails. I think park regulars will know what I'm talking about. Perhaps in the long term they have good intentions for bikes, but I dont have a lifetime to grind away in the civic process as the bureaucracy/hiker/horse interests block efforts to create trail in Marin. Yes I understand apathy is part of the mtb community's problem and I should participate etc., but with results like the 680 trail...there isn't much incentive. Trancho flow trail? different story-there's a lot of light at the end of that tunnel and a great example of how easy it can be without the bureaucracy. Stafford lake? great that it got approved, still about 800k short though. It's just that on public lands in Marin it's nearly hopeless and I hate losing what little we have.

    On the other hand, the same groups opposed to bikes have done an amazing job of keeping the condos and freeways away in this county for the last 70 years...so they aren't all bad.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by vernonator View Post
    I talked to the head of FOCC and asked about the price difference. He said that he was pressured to not charge a fee for hikers at all which he did not agree to. The reason mountain bikers pay more is that they use more of the park than a hiker would.
    I was afraid we would hear something like this; a total contrivance, a sham, sustaining the usual bias. I can certainly argue this point. How much of the park we use is irrelevant. Should runners pay $2.50? Mountain bikers came forward big time to make that money possible, too, and are the major park user in terms of numbers and frequency. And we still get the short end of the stick.

    Same old wine in a brand new bottle. Come on you guys!
    I don't rattle.

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    What the...??????

    Quote Originally Posted by NoBalance View Post
    How about this. I pay the fee and FOCC opens up the "backside" of china camp and adds trail signs, maintains the trails, etc?

    Those trails are maintained better than the China Camp trails will ever be, any under level of funding. Why screw up such a good thing?
    Live to Ride, Ride to Live

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    i think we should consider filing a formal complaint around the differential pricing. this isn't even a govt body discriminating against bikers....

  82. #82
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    A fee for something that was always free is awkward. Failing to consider and embrace the largest and most important user group at China Camp and then skewing the fee structure against them by contrivance makes the institution of these fees harder to take.

    What this actually boils down to is the fees, and the rate charged, are done because they can do it. That makes it an edict; our way or the highway. As someone who drove substantial numbers of mountain bikers to support the FoCC and will have to represent these "facts" (same old same old) I am now in an uneasy position.

    We just held an event at Rockville. Rates are $3 per person and $1 for each dog which must be leashed. We spoke to Ranger Teri in advance as a large number of folks would be descending on their fairly small park. They accommodated us concerning our beverage choice and arranged to take care of our refuse.

    Most of us paid our $3 with the line at the Kiosk of nearly 80 riders being problematic. In consideration of this we collected donations on behalf of the park later at the social hour. The BTCEB also made a nice donation. We support Rockville and Rockville respected our needs. Goodwill begets goodwill.

    You all know as well as I do that if mountain bikers feel unfairly treated they will ignore what they feel are unfair restrictions. This is hardly a modality of behavior limited to mountain bikers but a well-known social phenomonon. If a social body is ill-considered they will sabotage the consideration.

    What ultimately happens then is that such riders become defined as scofflaws and are demonized. Fingers get pointed by folks who want to have things their way.
    Sound familiar?

    This is not 1988 or 1998 or even 2008 anymore folks. Mountain bikers are powerful and numerous. They have jobs, businesses, homes, pay taxes, provide jobs, donate to the community, they vote, have kids, grandkids for crissakes. They are folks just like anyone else though may be a bit healthier. They deserve to be treated with respect.

    The fee at least has precedent with other parks. Contributors here have cited "law." So okay. This fee structure, in spite of contrivances driven by special influence explaining it, is unfair.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Trail Use and Parking Fee Program Announced at China Camp-130112_721e.jpg  

    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 01-14-2013 at 02:34 PM.
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  83. #83
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    For those concerned with the fee structure - why not buy the Parking Pass for $60? You can park anywhere you like and that Annual Pass includes trail use for up to 4 hikers, bikers or equestrians.

    Problem solved!

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    Maybe because I don't want to subsidize beaurocracy and an unprofitable concession venture?

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninertom View Post
    For those concerned with the fee structure - why not buy the Parking Pass for $60? You can park anywhere you like and that Annual Pass includes trail use for up to 4 hikers, bikers or equestrians.Problem solved!
    No it isn't:

    1) It ignores the unfairness.

    2) It is a flagrant sleezy car salesman manipulation which presses people to spend more than they otherwise would have. It suggests that whatever line one has drawn is irrelevant if you look at a number a different way.

    3) It continues to implement it on mountain bikers who do not benefit from a pass by infrequency.

    4) It continues to implement it on mountain bikers who are not a party to discussion.

    It perpetuates and supports unequal treatment of mountain bikers to their disadvantage. Other local parks who have these fee structures don't do this. It is time for this sort of thing to change.
    I don't rattle.

  86. #86
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    You guys will type a lot to justify not spending $3. Now it's because FOCC didn't kiss your ring first?
    Please either pay the fee, or work to change the system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoBalance View Post
    How about this. I pay the fee and FOCC opens up the "backside" of china camp and adds trail signs, maintains the trails, etc?
    WHA???!!!!! No lets not do that.

  88. #88
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    Can't you guys just go in, pay $2 and call it a day?
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  89. #89
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    I paid my three dollars today at the automatic kiosk at Miwok. I also got stopped TWICE by the same ranger. Once at the Miwok Porta-Potties, and once where Peacock dumps back down towards the ranger station. I am a retired police officer, with credentials, so the second time he stopped me, I checked his. This particular ranger is a sworn Ca. Peace officer, fully able to write citations, effect arrests, etc. If this is going to be the norm there, not sure if I will continue to ride it. Also, the "Day Pass" is printed out on super thin "lottery results" type paper, and was saturated with sweat by the second time he stopped me, and almost unreadable. This same machine can print out a yearly pass, so I have questions about the durability of a so called season pass. The signs mandate that you carry the pass with you while using the trail. No problem paying, but will have a problem if everyone is stopped all the time.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by fgiraffe View Post
    You guys will type a lot to justify not spending $3. Now it's because FOCC didn't kiss your ring first?
    Please either pay the fee, or work to change the system.
    That is precisely what is needed but any successful advocacy requires discussion to find understanding. One of the most valuable functions of MTBR is facilitating discussion. It provides a venue for the exchange of ideas. In the time we have spent here much has been revealed. We have all heard things we don' t support and things we do but clarity is coming.

    As has been said before, getting mtb'ers to act politically is very hard. Their force can only be harnessed if we can find, first consensus, second where to place the energy, and third creating a way for a busy Mtb community to participate.
    I don't rattle.

  91. #91
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    I have no problem paying fees if I feel the money is well spent.

    $500K annually to run CC.

    I would like to see a budget from FOCC. If I am going to pay I want to know how my money is spent.

    Majority of money should be for trail maintenance and trail expansion. Not to pay some bureaucrat a salary to hand out tickets.

  92. #92
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    Well, after re-reading this entire thread, I can honestly say I will not be comfortable paying to ride my bike at Chinacamp State Park. I will continue riding here and paying my state taxes (Property tax, sales tax etc.). I will see what changes occur over the next 2 or 3 years and maybe it will make more sense to pay double tax then. I have been riding here since 1979 (age 11 on a stingray), and will continue to support all state parks, the politicians can appropriate the funds as they see fit. I will admit, If I made $100,000 per year, I would whore myself out and buy passes, but it already costs me $20 in fuel/bridgetoll (lots more tax in those 2 items, huh?). Sorry folks, I am taxed out. I would rather pay tickets.
    Last edited by hoolie; 01-14-2013 at 11:17 PM.

  93. #93
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    When the potential park closures were first announced this is exactly what I feared would happen. Local groups would come together to "save" the parks. Now that the state has a few test cases look for them to threaten closure of more parks where they think a local group will take over the costs. And we who ride in many state parks will have to pay at every one of them. I had mixed emotions when FOCC was putting together their proposal. I respect them for taking the steps to ensure it remained open but also worried that once the process started it was over for riding in a tax payer supported "free" state park. Found park money? 2013 CA budget surplus? Doesn't matter anymore. When I look at how much the state takes out of every paycheck and the roads and services continue to drop it gets me pissed to pay another fee. Even more so with the BS higher fee for biking. "we use more of the park". Bulls#$t!!! Call it what it is, an antibiking let's make them pay more attitude.

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    ^^^^^^What he said...

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninertom View Post
    For those concerned with the fee structure - why not buy the Parking Pass for $60? You can park anywhere you like and that Annual Pass includes trail use for up to 4 hikers, bikers or equestrians.

    Problem solved!
    I don't drive there. I ride. Same as I have since I was in middle school.

  96. #96
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    I seriously doubt that they are going to give anyone a ticket for not having a pass. I think that it is going to be more voluntary. Also the best trails out there are not within the state park so i wouldn't worry too much about this.

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    looks like the headlands for me...it is horrible to raise sales and income taxes and also increase fees. how much money could they possibly need to run this state....uhhh, forget that last question.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    I was afraid we would hear something like this; a total contrivance, a sham, sustaining the usual bias. I can certainly argue this point.

    Same old wine in a brand new bottle. Come on you guys!
    Same old whine all right.

    Even though I usually try to hit it on weekdays I'm looking forward to lighter crowds at CC.
    If you do find yourself arguing with a ranger or getting a ticket because you refuse to pay, please stay to the right as to not block the trails.

    Thanks in advance!

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie_G View Post
    Same old whine all right.

    Even though I usually try to hit it on weekdays I'm looking forward to lighter crowds at CC.
    If you do find yourself arguing with a ranger or getting a ticket because you refuse to pay, please stay to the right as to not block the trails.

    Thanks in advance!
    Ollie, what will you say when you have to pay a separate "fee" for every public place you ride and that you already support with your taxes? Are you so wealthy that it means nothing to you, or is it that you only ride one place? Doesn't it bother you that you pay more than hikers or runners, whose impacts are the equal of bikes? Of course, since you're so excited on kowtowing to the new "managers" of CC and double paying for your "right" to use our public lands, I assume that you would have no problem paying to ride on Marin Water lands, GGNRA lands, City of San Rafael lands, etc. I bet you'll welcome paying 3 different fees at 3 different kiosks while enjoying one ride around CC from Dominican. I won't pay, I'll still be out there riding, and I won't be alone. The park doesn't need FOCC, FOCC has no right to charge me again for public lands of which I already support through taxes, and it certainly has no legitimate reason to attempt to charge me more for the same "product" as it does other user groups.

  100. #100
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    i have less of a problem forking over $3 to ride china camp, than paying $6 to drive into the city or sitting through a donation spiel at willow creek to ride there. our tax dollars get dumped into those 'projects' as well. china camp is just such a superb feel good ride.....at least to me. i think a lot more is being read into this FOCC thing than is warranted. maybe it at least deserves a chance eh? i do have 1 question--> do u guys building/riding the unsanctioned trails give a **** that our tax dollars get spent restoring those areas u tear up?
    I bet you'd do the same if they was you!

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