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  1. #1
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    Trail Use and Parking Fee Program Announced at China Camp

    Got this email from MCBC today....

    Trail Use and Parking Fee Program Announced to Support China Camp State Park


    Trail use (foot, bike and equestrian) and parking fees for China Camp State Park have been announced by Friends of China Camp (FOCC). The non-profit, volunteer-run organization, which successfully raised more than $250,000 to prevent the park from being closed as California State Parks had proposed in early 2012, has been managing China Camp since July. The fees are part of an effort by FOCC to raise the funds necessary to meet annual management costs for the park of approximately $500,000.

    Annual and day-use passes, good for a 12-month period from date of purchase, are available via website, and at four electronic pay stations being installed soon at the park. Fees are as follows:

    Activity

    Annual Fee

    Day-use Fee

    Parking

    $60 (Includes One Trail Use Pass)

    $5

    Hiking/Running

    $35 Family
    $25 Individual

    $2 Per Person

    Cycling/Equestrian

    $55 Family
    $35 Individual

    $3 Per Person

    MCBC supports FOCCís fee program as an important source of funding to keep China Camp State Park and its popular trails, including some of the Bay Area's best legal singletrack, open. We recognize that maintaining the park is costly and encourage cyclists to purchase their trail-use passes, just as other park users are expected to.


    Your thoughts???

  2. #2
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    sucks but kind of a necessary evil. I think its a good program, just hopefully they don't strictly enforce it for people who forget to bring money or whatever reason.

  3. #3
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    They do this at rockville park, and they will ask you for your pass, but they are not super aholes about it, and if the worst they usually will do is tell you to go pay for the pass. I don't see them pulling stings and ticketing people.

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    Happy to pay for an annual pass - totally reasonable. To pony up a reasonable fee shows you support the park and access to it. I'm always fine with paying daily use and entrance fees for county and state parks.
    Last edited by three3nine; 12-22-2012 at 04:07 PM.

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    Rockville is not a State Park. China Camp is a State Park.

    I'm not sure why these folks think they have any right to charge anything. I see that they have pressures and needs but I don't see a right. It is akin to putting a toll booth on a road and demanding fees.

    That MCBC supports this means nothing in terms of a right.

    Tamarancho asks for a fee but that is owned by the Boy Scouts.

    These folks "own" nothing.

    What am I missing here?

    I have sent them an email to this effect and will report.
    I don't rattle.

  6. #6
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    I don't mind paying a fee. Seeing folks unload $3k bikes from $40k cars and park on the road to avoid a $5 parking fee annoyed the heck out of me.

    I definitely DO NOT like the different fees for runners and cyclists. Still, I'll pony up, as I always have.

    I'm not sure why these folks think they have any right to charge anything
    They have been recognized by State Parks as the organization responsible for operating China Camp.
    Friends of China Camp: Our Mission

  7. #7
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    Many of us chose to park in the State lot at CC as a way to support the park. We never paid to use the trails. Whether one "minds" paying is not the question.

    The site fgiraffe provides says nothing about a right to charge or collect fees for trail use.
    I don't rattle.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Rockville is not a State Park. China Camp is a State Park.

    I'm not sure why these folks think they have any right to charge anything. I see that they have pressures and needs but I don't see a right. It is akin to putting a toll booth on a road and demanding fees.

    That MCBC supports this means nothing in terms of a right.

    Tamarancho asks for a fee but that is owned by the Boy Scouts.

    These folks "own" nothing.

    What am I missing here?

    I have sent them an email to this effect and will report.
    I agree. Don't like this trend at all. I will not be buying a year pass and am unlikely to ride there if I must pay.

    Private land with real singletrack: no problem paying.

    Public land with semi-singletrack, fees imposed by some non-state organization I don't understand: I got a problem with that.
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    Given it is a state park, will the State Parks Pass that is good for all state parks qualify as already having paid?

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    I don't mind contributing and think its a good idea if the money goes towards the park. But I don't think it should be able to ticket users who don't have a pas. I think all parks should do this, as long as all you get is a slap on the hand for not having it. If you can at least collect on %60 of the users most of the time thats still much better than %0 like they are getting now. It should be a good faith kind of rule and not paying should be looked down upon, but I won't go there anymore if it means if I'm riding without a pass I'm going to get seriously harassed. I know that sounds a bit flakey, but thats just how I feel. I don't want to get stop and questioned about a pass at anytime while I'm riding. Whether I have one or not, that vibe does not belong on trails.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by grumblingcrustacean View Post
    Given it is a state park, will the State Parks Pass that is good for all state parks qualify as already having paid?
    Assuming it's a Golden Poppy or Vehicle Day Use Annual Pass, looks like the answer is nope! You gotta pay to be on the trails.

    "The pass is not valid at units operated by local government, private agencies or concessionaires. It is not valid for per-person entry or tour fees, camping, boat use, oversize vehicle fees, extra vehicle fees or supplemental fees such as swimming pools and sanitation dump use." Pass Descriptions

    Since they are charging a fee per person to use the trail, sounds like a "per-person entry fee." You paid. Now you gotta pay again.

    Might not even cover the parking. "The pass is not valid at units operated by local government, private agencies or concessionaires." I'd make a fuss if I had one of those passes and they tried to make me pay for parking. When you paid for the pass, it let you park at China Camp. Now? They may change the deal.

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    Are you guys serious? Compared to so many other states, there is such a shortage of decent riding here in the greater Bay Area, but despite this fact, and the fact that mostly us spends many thousands of dollars of gear, you would protest a modest annual fee? Perhaps try not to see it as a parking or use fee, but as simple support of a valuable local resource.

    I set aside mtb for years for another sport, and even founded almost ten years ago, and still manage one of the top US forums for the sport (bayareakiteboarding.com) and while it is still fun (kitesurfing), by and large the kitesurfing community can often be one of the most selfish and cheap sport communities. Many of them are longtime good friends, but trust me, by and large, they are unreliable, cheap, selfish and pretty much don't give much back at all and only want to get their windy session on the water. Beyond that, don't do much. Just sayin! Please, please tell me mtb hasn't gotten there!

    It looks like a $60 annual pass covers both parking and day use for 1. I might be wrong on the details, but In any case, regardless of the entity, we don't own it or manage it. I do not believe there are many people here who simply cannot afford it, so why would you not pay?

    I apologize for being outspoken, but this strikes a chord with me as I've spent almost a decade seeing financially stable and affluent people being incredibly cheap and selfish when it comes to any kind of support and participation in the well being of their own sport.

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  13. #13
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    You folks may recall much of this was discussed in this China Camp thread a few months ago.


    The site fgiraffe provides says nothing about a right to charge or collect fees for trail use.
    Mike you should try this "reading" thing I hear so much about:

    WILL FOCC HAVE SUFFICIENT FUNDS TO OPERATE CHINA CAMP?
    Yes. By entering into an operating agreement with California State Parks (CSP), FOCC will be able to retain all revenues generated from park use for the operation of China Camp. FOCC will still need to raise significant funds annually to supplement revenues from the park. Support of park users and the community will be critical to its success.

  14. #14
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    I donated to keep the park open. If it had closed, there would be no enforcement and we could still have ridden the trails. Now it's open and despite donating I'll need to pay a fee. That's irony right there.

    -slide

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie_G View Post
    Are you guys serious? Compared to so many other states, there is such a shortage of decent riding here in the greater Bay Area, but despite this fact, and the fact that mostly us spends many thousands of dollars of gear, you would protest a modest annual fee? Perhaps try not to see it as a parking or use fee, but as simple support of a valuable local resource.

    I set aside mtb for years for another sport, and even founded almost ten years ago, and still manage one of the top US forums for the sport (bayareakiteboarding.com) and while it is still fun (kitesurfing), by and large the kitesurfing community can often be one of the most selfish and cheap sport communities. Many of them are longtime good friends, but trust me, by and large, they are unreliable, cheap, selfish and pretty much don't give much back at all and only want to get their windy session on the water. Beyond that, don't do much. Just sayin! Please, please tell me mtb hasn't gotten there!

    It looks like a $60 annual pass covers both parking and day use for 1. I might be wrong on the details, but In any case, regardless of the entity, we don't own it or manage it. I do not believe there are many people here who simply cannot afford it, so why would you not pay?

    I apologize for being outspoken, but this strikes a chord with me as I've spent almost a decade seeing financially stable and affluent people being incredibly cheap and selfish when it comes to any kind of support and participation in the well being of their own sport.

    Oliver
    Yes. I am serious.

    Like I said, I have no problem paying to use private land. I've had season Tamarancho passes for years. I do have a problem with fees for a public park.

    If CA isn't going to have public parks - and I no longer consider China Camp a public park - it needs to completely get out of meddling with them and owning them. China Camp a private nature preserve with trails: fine, I'll pay a fee. China Camp a new housing development - at least my government would get some money out of the deal (which they'd then waste). But the current situation of pretending to have public parks but not really having them is a bunch of ********. It's also something I expect is here to stay.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by fgiraffe View Post
    You folks may recall much of this was discussed in this China Camp thread a few months ago.

    Mike you should try this "reading" thing I hear so much about:
    I read that. That does not address the right to charge for trail use.

    Interpreted in your fashion they could charge for any number of things (outhouse use, trash removal fee...), without justification, and have a right to the money. Thinking about it a bit, the contrivance of $2 for a walker and $3 for a biker resonates in that fashion.

    The term "generated from park use" is very general. There is no precedent for charging such fees in the 22 years I have ridden in Chain Camp.

    Do you see what mean?
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 12-21-2012 at 11:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slide mon View Post
    I donated to keep the park open. If it had closed, there would be no enforcement and we could still have ridden the trails. Now it's open and despite donating I'll need to pay a fee. That's irony right there.

    -slide


    Exactly how I feel, I donated as well because I support the park and wanted it to remain open and I would have no problem contributing to help fund the park. I simply don't think it is right to charge a day use/annual fee to access public trails regardless of your activity (biking/hiking/equestrian).

  18. #18
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    Well, being as they have no authority to ticket you for not paying (or no authority to collect on that ticket), then you may as well consider these fees as suggested donations.

    To those of you that donated: You may as well consider yourselves angel investors. Thank you for getting the ball rolling. And no, you aren't getting that money back. Maybe they'll give you an annual pass? You should totally ask for that.

  19. #19
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    Do you see what mean?
    OK Mike, now I do. I apologize for the snark.

    But I take all those things you mention to fall under "operating the park". They have been chosen by the State to operate the park, and now they bear the responsibility to do what they think is in the best interests of keeping the park open.

    FOCC is running China Camp. This is what they think is in the best interests of keeping China Camp open.


    I simply don't think it is right to charge a day use/annual fee to access public trails
    Well, the alternative is to close enough parks until the state can fund what it can afford. Is that any more "right"?

    Instead of going that route, the path that was chosen was to let private non-profit organizations take over operations of some parks. And now that that is happening, we are seeing the results.

    There is no magic source of money from the sky. The State of CA has a humongous money problem (for numerous and myriad reasons).

    I'm willing to give this system a chance. Do I love it with the taxes I pay? NO.
    Do I prefer it to having parks close? Maybe, let's see.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Rockville is not a State Park. China Camp is a State Park.

    I'm not sure why these folks think they have any right to charge anything. I see that they have pressures and needs but I don't see a right. It is akin to putting a toll booth on a road and demanding fees.

    That MCBC supports this means nothing in terms of a right.

    Tamarancho asks for a fee but that is owned by the Boy Scouts.

    These folks "own" nothing.

    What am I missing here?

    I have sent them an email to this effect and will report.
    These groups are indeed the Wolf in Sheep's clothing. MCBC is certainly NOT here to help with dirt cycling at all. If it doesn't have a flag and a basket MCBC wants to kill it. Look rationally at the track record: Stafford lake bike park? DOA. Bills trail open to bikes? DOA. Now fees for China Camp from the very same group that has been trying for ages to close the social network on the San Rafael side, a network that has been volunteer built for DECADES. These groups to not support dirt riding they only want to use it as a pawn to sacrifice.

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    Instead of labeling fees as designated for trail use, just look at it as fees for parking.

    "Annual Parking pass: $60.00
    Each Annual Parking Pass also comes with a trail use pass valid for up to 4 people."

    For those complaining about what right they have to charge or whether or not they "own" anything, it seems to me another poster was pretty fair in his assessment: "They have been recognized by State Parks as the organization responsible for operating China Camp." Which is a lot more than anyone here has been entrusted to do.

    Let"s explore a brief list of local and state parks that charge fees, which are not just for parking but also labeled as "Day Use". This is an important distinction, because yes, those fees generally, if not always, include parking, they are also presented as "Day Use" fees which in this case, are no different than "Trail Use".

    EBRPD:
    Lake Anza, Lake Temescal, Chabot, Crown Beach Alameda, and many more
    Marin: Muir Woods, Stinson, etc.

    It can be a big list if you want, but call it what you wan't, the reality is that pretty much all parks need funding. If you want to cheap out and not pay to support a local resource, go ride your $5k bike transported on your $30-40k car somewhere else, it's your right.

    Not long ago, a rider from NC posted, asking for info on some local rides. He settled on Marin and later part of what he posted is as follows:

    "The helpful guy at the bike shop told me that there are very few legal places to ride single track around here. Tamarancho was a great xc singletrack ride but I wish they had more terrain for us MTBers. I live in Asheville North Carolina and we have hundreds of miles of bike legal singletrack within 30 minutes of town. We have everything from fast and flowing to downright crazy. I am sorry that your MTB community is getting outgunned. We have such a strong presence back home and really reap the benefits."

    So, relatively speaking, compared to other areas, we don't have much. $60/year for parking and trail use for up to four people seems pretty fair to me.

  22. #22
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    Let me be clear...

    I did not say that supporting FOCC was a bad idea.

    I did not say I would not pay.

    Whether it is okay with "you" or a good idea, a small thing to ask, or supports badly needed riding areas is irrelevant.

    How much your bike is worth is irrelevant.

    I ask a simple question about the right to charge in a place that has never charged in my experience.


    By analogy:

    Skyline in Napa is State land managed by the City of Napa which charges $6 for parking. I don't know how that started or by what right they can do that. We always park and pay. Locals and frequenters enter from the College or other spots and do not pay.

    It is in that vein that I ask this question. It is a fair question, which I have asked of FoCC.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 12-22-2012 at 08:02 PM.
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    I am curious now that FOCC has operational control over CC is there any opportunity for them to change/expand trail access? I'm sure there's some sort of agreement on what the can and can't do but does anyone know if there's any opportunity for FOCC to make their own decisions about trail access?

    I would be so much more stoked on paying for trail access at CC if there were some opportunity to possibly develop or expand trail access on already existing trails there.

    This is a whole other can of worms, but when I think about paying for trail access, I would really like to see the possibility for different trail user groups to have some involvement and input on how the trails are managed.

    Anyone have more info on what latitude FOCC has in their new role??

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    I don't mind supporting, but...

    The only ranger currently out there (who was brought over from MMWD), told me that they are bringing more rangers from other areas for enforcement.
    I'm absolutely not interested in my money going towards anti bike enforcement and destruction of community built (and maintained) trails

  25. #25
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    Annadel SP will now be operated by Sonoma County Regional Parks--a somewhat similar situation to CC. As far as I know, the the only difference is that we will eventually have to pay to park at the dirt lot at Cobblestone. And if you have a pass for the Regional Parks (Spring Lake, Doran Beach, etc.), it'll be good for Annadel too. Seems fine to me.

    I haven't heard anything about trail use fees. That can be a slippery slope--especially charging different amounts depending on how you're using the trail. Certain users might be more inclined to think that since they paid more to ride the trail than someone who's walking the same trail, they should get right of way. Who knows? Maybe they'll sell a "right of way" pass, so you can mow people down
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tahoe_Rocks View Post
    The only ranger currently out there (who was brought over from MMWD), told me that they are bringing more rangers from other areas for enforcement.
    I'm absolutely not interested in my money going towards anti bike enforcement and destruction of community built (and maintained) trails
    That is exactly what will happen. All done by the FOCC and MCBC. FOCC has already attempted to destroy the social trail network even off of state property.

    Pretty sad as this is my favorite winter riding areas and the location of my first real mountain bike ride when I was 15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuruAtma View Post
    Who knows? Maybe they'll sell a "right of way" pass, so you can mow people down
    Lexus Lanes in Annadel? Moooooo!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tahoe_Rocks View Post
    The only ranger currently out there (who was brought over from MMWD), told me that they are bringing more rangers from other areas for enforcement.
    I'm absolutely not interested in my money going towards anti bike enforcement and destruction of community built (and maintained) trails
    China Camp State Park's Facebook page recently (on 12/12/2012) announced that Ranger Bob Birkland, formerly at Annadel, was being transferred to China Camp. Not exactly sure he is a friend of the bike:

    http://www.watchsonomacounty.com/201...el-state-park/

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    Another agree to disagree on this one...

    Quote Originally Posted by Plim View Post
    I agree. Don't like this trend at all. I will not be buying a year pass and am unlikely to ride there if I must pay.

    Private land with real singletrack: no problem paying.

    Public land with semi-singletrack, fees imposed by some non-state organization I don't understand: I got a problem with that.

    How about I post a copy of my 540 form on my dash as a parking permit. BS, I'll ride in.
    Just like the fee lot they tried on San Pedro Road, south side, didn't work out too well, it's been empty ever since that sign went up. BTW, where did the 54 mil go?
    Last edited by rglsr; 12-22-2012 at 07:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    These groups are indeed the Wolf in Sheep's clothing. MCBC is certainly NOT here to help with dirt cycling at all. If it doesn't have a flag and a basket MCBC wants to kill it. Look rationally at the track record: Stafford lake bike park? DOA. Bills trail open to bikes? DOA. Now fees for China Camp from the very same group that has been trying for ages to close the social network on the San Rafael side, a network that has been volunteer built for DECADES. These groups to not support dirt riding they only want to use it as a pawn to sacrifice.
    Hey guys I just want to say that I feel like an idiot for writing this. I was upset about what is happening at China Camp but I was mostly upset about how mountain bikers have been treated in Marin and the Bay Area. MCBC is here to change things for the better. Bills will open, I have high hopes for Stafford lake and because of MCBCs hard work I know Marin will be a better place. I want to apologize to MCBC and anyone else I have offended. I am still very concerned about China Camp but I had no right to say any of this plus I was totally wrong. Hopefully this thread will fade away

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    Well, I give more credit for Bill's to IMBA NorCal and local longtime advocates; you know who you are.

    MCBC taking on dirt is a good thing.They have tools, relationships , money, and expertise to take this on.
    I don't rattle.

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    i would like to be supportive of this, but i just can't. are these state parks or not? if so, they should be paid for out of the highest state income taxes collected in the entire united states (by far). if private, i would understand charging fees for services. it doesn't mean i won't pay when i ride there, but i think this entire situation is ridiculous. where does all the money go?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    snip...

    China Camp is a State Park.

    I'm not sure why these folks think they have any right to charge anything. I see that they have pressures and needs but I don't see a right. It is akin to putting a toll booth on a road and demanding fees.

    That MCBC supports this means nothing in terms of a right.

    Tamarancho asks for a fee but that is owned by the Boy Scouts.

    These folks "own" nothing.

    snip...
    I agree with you. And I'm concerned about several things.


    1. There's an organization here that's private and is taking over management of a state park. A step towards privatization of our state parks is a bad thing.
    2. Imbalanced fees. Why charge more for cyclists than hikers/runners/etc? That just reeks of bias.
    3. MCBC supporting this amazes me. These fees (and imbalanced) are not helping cyclists. I thought MCBC was a group supporting cycling? Maybe not so much mountain biking.
    4. The multi-million dollar slush funds and waste that is being found within the state park bureaucracy tells me there's a need to clean up that act before having the users of the park paying for the graft and waste.
    5. How are the "fees" being used? Show me where the fees will be used, why they are imbalanced, and a plan. At the moment the fees could go towards building new trails that are off limits to cyclists. Nothing says that couldn't happen. Will FOCC end up skimming off large management fees? Could there be a FOCC slush fund to mirror the state parks?
    6. Impact on educational groups that would like to use the park. For example, Trips for Kids and the High School MTB teams are directly impacted. Look at the huge benefits these groups provide for kids. China Camp is one of the few places in Marin that offers easy access to the trails. These fees will now place barriers to these groups.


    Jeesh, I feel I could go on and on.

    At the moment I feel this is a bad precedent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanskellner View Post
    I agree with you. And I'm concerned about several things.

    [*] Impact on educational groups that would like to use the park. For example, Trips for Kids and the High School MTB teams are directly impacted. Look at the huge benefits these groups provide for kids. China Camp is one of the few places in Marin that offers easy access to the trails. These fees will now place barriers to these groups.[/LIST]

    Jeesh, I feel I could go on and on.

    At the moment I feel this is a bad precedent.
    That is what was striking me the most... from a social justice standpoint your are essentially making it more difficult for lower income families to take advantage of the recreational and fitness opportunities at China Camp... a state park. The message that comes across, while unintentional, marginalizes groups who cannot afford to pay fees to be outside.

  35. #35
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    I feel the best thing we could do as MTBers is join FOCC. Also join the bike patrol they want to set up. I'd rather have a pleasant chat with a fellow rider than a "run in" with an overzealous hiker who has hiking sticks, authority and wants to see my hall pass.

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    I wonder if they will try to ban the free parking on the road and force everyone onto the "pay to park" lot.

    How many members of FOCC are mtn bike friendly? I know several of the neighbors had a very NIMBY attitude about mtn bikers. They claim due to the sheer number of mtn bikers, they can no longer hike or ride horses on the trails. They really want to get ride of mtn bikers.

    Historically, the area was a motorcycle off-road area back in the early 60's. There were races and even an Trans-AMA motocross race. Participants included 5 time world champion Roger DeCoster. The area was turned into a state park and the motorcycle club relocated, but many of the original trails were old motorcycle trails.

    I hope this doesn't go down the same path as off-road motorcycle riding. We pay fees for OHV areas and trail maintenance. The fees increase and they are used for enforcement to write tickets. More fees, more cops on the trails.

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    So what ever happened to the $53 million that was found. Was it just an accounting error?

    Ironic is we keep raising taxes and creating new fees. Now I have to pay to use the state park in my backyard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    I feel the best thing we could do as MTBers is join FOCC. Also join the bike patrol they want to set up. I'd rather have a pleasant chat with a fellow rider than a "run in" with an overzealous hiker who has hiking sticks, authority and wants to see my hall pass.
    Great idea. Because if some tries to write me a ticket, he better have a badge and be a sworn officer in the state of California.

  39. #39
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    A "ticket" begs any authority to collect fines or exclude usage. That requires power and leverage which goes back to any right to charge, collect. It is based on the question of any authority to control access.
    I don't rattle.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    These groups are indeed the Wolf in Sheep's clothing. MCBC is certainly NOT here to help with dirt cycling at all. If it doesn't have a flag and a basket MCBC wants to kill it. Look rationally at the track record: Stafford lake bike park? DOA. Bills trail open to bikes? DOA. Now fees for China Camp from the very same group that has been trying for ages to close the social network on the San Rafael side, a network that has been volunteer built for DECADES. These groups to not support dirt riding they only want to use it as a pawn to sacrifice.
    I'm on the MCBC Off-Road Committee, and this sort of hyperbole is pretty silly and unhelpful.

    1. Stafford Lake is hardly DOA - its CEQA document was approved, and the funding details are currently being worked out and should be settled in the next few months. The passage of Measure A was an important step in helping to move this project forward.

    2. The EIR for Bill's Trail was approved, and the time period for which the EIR could be challenged passed without a lawsuit from MCL or other groups. Now that that hurdle is cleared, State Parks is in the process of moving forward with implementation, which will require some regrading work along the trail that will likely have to be contracted out.

    3. The current leadership of FOCC is pretty different from the original group that helped to establish CC as a park in the first place, and is quite aware that the support of the mountain biking community is critical to stewardship at CC. I suggest joining FOCC and becoming part of the dialogue; its leadership is still trying to find its way re: MTB issues (they tried to hold an MTB event the day after some other huge MTB event, if I remember correctly, not realizing that not many people would have the energy to show up).
    Quote Originally Posted by jbt56
    Are you a whiny Marin liberal, or a hand-wringing Berkeley liberal?

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    I for one have no problem paying a fee to the FOCC for parking and riding. For me, the $10-12 (figuring me and my son) isn't that much considering it costs me about $25 in gas to take my truck out there and a $5 bridge toll. When China camp was going to be closed, the FOCC stepped up and came up with a plan. By that token however, I don't have a problem paying a small fee to use state parks because they are subsidized and many don't use them; I don't expect others to pay for my enjoyment.

    I do have a big issue with the state parks department. The FOCC had to step up because there was going to be a $120 million shortfall. As we all know, it turns out the state parks had $54 million hidden in bank accounts. Now that the money has been "found" the State should pay a significant amount to FOCC for its management of the park.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piranha426 View Post
    I'm on the MCBC Off-Road Committee, and this sort of hyperbole is pretty silly and unhelpful.

    3. The current leadership of FOCC is pretty different from the original group that helped to establish CC as a park in the first place, and is quite aware that the support of the mountain biking community is critical to stewardship at CC. I suggest joining FOCC and becoming part of the dialogue; its leadership is still trying to find its way re: MTB issues (they tried to hold an MTB event the day after some other huge MTB event, if I remember correctly, not realizing that not many people would have the energy to show up).

    Great news re #1 & #2. thanks for the update.

    #3? Well, the FOCC have to learn about mtb'ers and advocacy somehow. I don't blame mountain bikers for being how they are. that isa waste of time. Outreach for any group needs to be understood and tailored to work well.
    I don't rattle.

  43. #43
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    If they had any understanding of mtn bikers, they'd open a Lemonade stand that sold beer.

    Or sell trail use coupons for 1/2 off their first beer at Marin Brewing Company.

    Fully funded for the year by July.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piranha426 View Post
    I'm on the MCBC Off-Road Committee, and this sort of hyperbole is pretty silly and unhelpful.

    1. Stafford Lake is hardly DOA - its CEQA document was approved, and the funding details are currently being worked out and should be settled in the next few months. The passage of Measure A was an important step in helping to move this project forward.

    2. The EIR for Bill's Trail was approved, and the time period for which the EIR could be challenged passed without a lawsuit from MCL or other groups. Now that that hurdle is cleared, State Parks is in the process of moving forward with implementation, which will require some regrading work along the trail that will likely have to be contracted out.

    3. The current leadership of FOCC is pretty different from the original group that helped to establish CC as a park in the first place, and is quite aware that the support of the mountain biking community is critical to stewardship at CC. I suggest joining FOCC and becoming part of the dialogue; its leadership is still trying to find its way re: MTB issues (they tried to hold an MTB event the day after some other huge MTB event, if I remember correctly, not realizing that not many people would have the energy to show up).
    Ya. I said I was a stupid head and I was really sorry. Post number 30. I also bought TB a beer and we talked about it. And I'm sorry and I'm stupid. I just really love that area and there is some serious blood, sweat, tears and joyfull noises at stake. Loads of memories on that ridge from 15 years old and on. I was scared and upset about how MTBers are treated. I've seen favorite trails disappear before...

  45. #45
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    When you dig so much dirt your brain turns to mud. Been there!
    I don't rattle.

  46. #46
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    If I am paying 50% more than the hiker, I have the right of way!
    STRAVA!!!!!!!!

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTT77 View Post
    If I am paying 50% more than the hiker, I have the right of way!
    STRAVA!!!!!!!!
    But you're paying the same as me. Wilbur, get ready for a physics lesson.
    - Mr Ed.



    (There seems to be a new species of horse in Marin, the ass is on top.)

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevXR View Post
    But you're paying the same as me. Wilbur, get ready for a physics lesson.
    - Mr Ed.
    Ha! That's good point. F=M*A

    But, you underestimate a horse's "fight or flight" reaction when they see me coming around the corner, screaming, wearing a grizzly bear head for a helmet.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTT77 View Post
    Ha! That's good point. F=M*A

    But, you underestimate a horse's "fight or flight" reaction when they see me coming around the corner, screaming, wearing a grizzly bear head for a helmet.
    You really don't know that much about horses. Trained right, a mtn bike would be nothing. Bring it.
    Plus, my draft horse has a medical marijuana card for his glaucoma. He ain't scared. Kind of slow and watches birds a lot...


    (Just kidding. My friend does have one of the jousting horses.)

  50. #50
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    The bear head got me thinking. I can honestly say that I have put on a full gorilla suit and ran around China Camp in a "Hunting for Big Foot" children's birthday party. All the children were given cameras and they tried to take photos of me. Several other adults were shaking bushes to misdirect the children. It was a fun day as we kept them running around all over the park. $2 per kid or adult, how much for a gorilla?

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