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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by jl776 View Post
    I


    Your taxes would need to be a whole lot higher than what they are now to do those things...
    In my opinon we in CA already subsidize irresponsible dirtbags and foreign college students enough.
    It's not about the fee for some of us. It's about the fee differential, the loss of the better trails in the park and the gov reaching deeper and deeper into our pockets to pay for out of control expenses. And yes, I have a 6k$ bike and I wont kick down 3 bucks for what FOCC is "providing". What they are offering is no departure from status quo in Marin. In short, it's just not worth 3$.
    actually, the foreign college students subsidize the rest of us. when i was a student, the university actively courted top non-resident and foreign students because their tuition was more than 2x the in-state tuition. also, because foreign students don't qualify for aid, many private colleges (stanford, ivy league) also love foreign students who pay the entire tuition.
    94 Specialized Rockhopper

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Who knows how to create an online petition?
    Creating and delivering an online petition would be rather tacky/passive aggressive wouldn't you say? So far it sounds like most people who are participating in this discussion are merely expressing their thoughts, if someone wants action maybe direct contact first would be the mature moreover the more reasonable first step.

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by markj2k4 View Post
    Creating and delivering an online petition would be rather tacky/passive aggressive wouldn't you say? So far it sounds like most people who are participating in this discussion are merely expressing their thoughts, if someone wants action maybe direct contact first would be the mature moreover the more reasonable first step.

    Another foible of online discussion is the plethora of opinion and good ideas, all absent action.

    Is there anyone here who has good contact with FoCC or MCBC to test the waters.

    Perhaps a Poll is a better idea than a petition, given the venue.
    I don't rattle.

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by dth656 View Post
    actually, the foreign college students subsidize the rest of us. when i was a student, the university actively courted top non-resident and foreign students because their tuition was more than 2x the in-state tuition. also, because foreign students don't qualify for aid, many private colleges (stanford, ivy league) also love foreign students who pay the entire tuition.

    Yeah, maybe that's true to an extent. Good point. I'll leave politics out of it, just tough to swallow this situation with all the other stuff going on these days.

    It's also very frustrating to see all kinds of truly wonderful bike trails being built all over the country as bikes evolve into what we have now-and still be sucking hind tit here in Marin. Take a look at the stuff in Bend, or Sedona, or Bellingham, or T-rancho! Hell yeah I'd buy a pass to ride and support that! "Single track" wide enough for 2 wheelchairs abreast with off camber corners for drainage? The walkers and horses can have it- and pay for it-since it's built primarily with their interests in mind anyway.
    I'm convinced local mtb support base is huge but largely untapped because there are no trail projects of sufficient quality to attract it. Exception and example is the T-rancho flow trail. FOCC's hands are tied to an extent of course, but as someone else said, it's still the same wine in a different bottle.

  5. #130
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    Signed up for the bike patrol this morning. Will be out ensuring no one pays fees and rides where ever they wish.

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mt. Tam Haze View Post
    Signed up for the bike patrol this morning. Will be out ensuring no one pays fees and rides where ever they wish.
    Nice one, you are an inspiration to us all. You are also in a key position to monitor the FOCC. Let us know what they get up to. I will be joining you soon. Shame it will take away from the flow trail build. I think we have enough committed volunteers that I don't matter anyway.

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by jl776 View Post
    but as someone else said, it's still the same wine in a different bottle.
    Shouldn't it be beer?

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by normarin View Post
    Letter sent. Also, I was hoping the parks would shut down - what, are they going to carry the trails away with them? All this means is no regulation, so tell me why it was good that china camp was "saved?"
    It would also mean no crappers, trash cans, or anything that would keep bum camps and meth heads out...but I kinda agree-I'm curious about letting the whole thing go "over the cliff" and see what happens. As far as I'm concerned the current model is broken anyway, maybe we should just rip the band-aid off.

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie_G View Post
    Shouldn't it be beer?
    Metaphorically my point: the wine drinkers still have their way.
    I don't rattle.

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mt. Tam Haze View Post
    Signed up for the bike patrol this morning. Will be out ensuring no one pays fees and rides where ever they wish.
    Cool. Nice work. Post up your schedule when you know it!

  11. #136
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    Concerned about non-governmental non-profits taking over operations of State Parks like China Camp? (BTW the number of parks this can happen to is limited under the current law, as noted about 80 posts ago.)
    POed about parks crying "low funds" then finding millions squirreled away?
    Please don't just post on mtbr.

    Find out who your CA State Senator and Legislator is and usually in 1-2 clicks you can give them personal, direct feedback. Do it! These people ostensibly work for you, so don't be shy.

    And IMHO internet petitions are worthless, but that's just one opinion.

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mt. Tam Haze View Post
    Signed up for the bike patrol this morning. Will be out ensuring no one pays fees and rides where ever they wish.


    I've signed up for the mtb patrol and trail maintenance 3 times and have yet to be contacted (I gave my phone # and e-mail), have you actually been contacted from anyone at FOCC?

    I'd like to have a link to someone within the organization just to get a better idea of their point of view and planning, I'd still like to give those with FOCC/CSP the benefit of the doubt that they just don't really know what the mtb community wants relating to trails.

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrieRider View Post
    I'd still like to give those with FOCC/CSP the benefit of the doubt that they just don't really know what the mtb community wants relating to trails.
    I think, more importantly, that they may not know how mountain bikers would like to be considered. After all; mountain bikers are arguably the largest trail user group in the park with the greatest influence on the development, establishment, and dissemination of the China Camp culture.
    I don't rattle.

  14. #139
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    Friends of China Camp: Our Team

    ^^^We as mountain bikers need representation on this "team", pretty interesting they are all runners and hikers and that is the user group that is charged less for trail use...

  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by IrieRider View Post
    Friends of China Camp: Our Team

    ^^^We as mountain bikers need representation on this "team", pretty interesting they are all runners and hikers and that is the user group that is charged less for trail use...
    It shows the first person on the list as an avid mountain biker, but it does seem to be mostly hikers and runners.

  16. #141
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    [QUOTE=

    And IMHO internet petitions are worthless, but that's just one opinion.[/QUOTE]

    They bring people together and focus energy, describe the volume of energy, and take advantage of online community presence where real time and place energies don't seem possible. Their ability to influence the actual issue of the petition is limited but they are a step forward.

    That said, I am not sure how their value is different than that of a poll but I sense that a petition is more motivating.

    The beginnings of political movement is in raising awareness and educating. This sort of thing is a start.
    I don't rattle.

  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuenstock View Post
    It shows the first person on the list as an avid mountain biker, but it does seem to be mostly hikers and runners.
    Avid mtn biker in the 90s......I respect what he is doing and all the time and energy he has invested but when I heard him speak at Ales and Trails this past Spring he focused mainly on simply keeping the park open and preserving the Chinese heritage there, little talk of what would come next. While I think that is great, I don't see why others couldn't be brought in to provide further input on trail maintenance/design/usage

    Would it be fair to say he may be out of touch with the majority of todays avid mountain bikers? If so, there is no harm or shame in reaching out for input.

  18. #143
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    I just wonder if their is a different awareness of the park on the water side of things. Certainly the founding concept/theme might easily have been the 19th century Chinese shrimpers. And it is easy to see why it might garner a predominant attention. The other jillion acres that mtb'ers use is disconnected.

    I'm guessing the retired white folk seen on the team were active in administrating the success of the rescue and, as "other" users, had a lot of influence on how things were to be directed in their favor. I'm guessing they would just as soon see Mtb leave so they can have some halcyon natural experience. You can hear their preferred experience in their bios.

    That's my read from the hip.
    I don't rattle.

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie_G View Post
    Some of you guys are too much. Many repeatedly say that they will pay for private areas but not for state or county parks, etc. I imagine some of you can justify it to yourselves because you pay state taxes (which incidentally are fractional compared to federal) and despite massive cuts to parks across the board, they don't need your support and your feeling of entitlement exempts you. Other protests are based on the question of "What right do they have?" FOCC has been appointed by the state to manage the park, not any of you who have been protesting over the pittance of a fee to enjoy the park.

    In Japan, France and Italy, among other places, the simple act of driving on the freeway tends to be very expensive as all freeways are toll roads, not to mention that gas is around $8/gallon. That's just how it is and people deal with it and don't complain. The point is that in that case it's for essential everyday needs and day to day life. So here, we have so many things that are taken for granted, and people don't want to pay a few bucks to enjoy a great local recreational resource that many do take for granted.

    Spoiled whiny mountain bikers with 4 or 5k bikes on 30-50k rides crying about a few dollars to support a park. What do you spend at Starbucks or on an IPA? Claiming it's the principle or politics and demanding answers on the basis of whose right is it to charge? Just pony up, support the park and quit crying.
    Let's see how I stack up to your stereotype:
    o Laid off in November. (No job.)
    o Ride a $400 mtn bike I bought at the Trips for Kids swap meet.
    o Drive a pickup truck I bought at the Marin County auction. Looks like new, but unsuitable for a public employee to continue to drive with 105,000 miles.
    o Two kids on college.
    o Paid "OHV fees" last June only to find $31 million in fees are unaccounted.

    Kind of pisses me off to pay $6 to take my kid mtn bike riding in our local state park.

  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevXR View Post
    Let's see how I stack up to your stereotype:
    o Laid off in November. (No job.)
    o Ride a $400 mtn bike I bought at the Trips for Kids swap meet.
    o Drive a pickup truck I bought at the Marin County auction. Looks like new, but unsuitable for a public employee to continue to drive with 105,000 miles.
    o Two kids on college.
    o Paid "OHV fees" last June only to find $31 million in fees are unaccounted.

    Kind of pisses me off to pay $6 to take my kid mtn bike riding in our local state park.
    Yes, well, stereotypes are simple generalizations, and certainly not applicable to all, and often written impulsively. I will try to come up with better ones that include more people.

    Regarding the fees, I guess my opinion has been that its better for the moment to comply with the new structure and let things take their course in the short term. It's unlikely that the mtb crowd is going to facilitate short term change through indignance, upset and protest. As B-Mike has pointed out, people who are upset can show up at meetings taking place currently or soon, speak out and protest, but its easy for them (management, et al) to wait it out, as the crowd will, most likely thin out soon enough, which is realistic. Most people have enough going on that to really commit to making and seeing change regarding fees through to the end is unlikely. But to protest online is really easy, so it's natural that we see plenty of that happening here. Don't get me wrong, I didn't make the rules, but I am taking the path of least resistance and have paid my $35 annual fee (still parking on the road).

    The timing of a recent short section of trail mowing has been ripe too. I don't agree with it, but whether FoCC or the State was managing the park, it's likely it would have happened anyway. Is likely the result of a couple years of input, feedback, evaluation and planning as beyond clearing fallen trees after storms, very little happens in any parks quickly. Perhaps the mtb community didn't have any input or control over it, but we are the low folks on the hierarchy.

    But with that said, it was awesome to ride a place like Henry Cowell and above UCSC today where you can ride through healthy forest with trails and singletrack going every which way imaginable and seeing that it works. Built up trails, berms, jumps, you name it, and no one complaining, blocking trails with sticks and logs, no angry people. Imagine if it could be like that in Marin or the Berkeley/East Bay hills...

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