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  1. #101
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    No, unfortunately, I'm not wealthy, I'm self-employed and work very hard in my own business for just about 20 years now. For me, it's a matter of priorities and looking at things as they relate in the bigger picture. Life can be tough enough and time can be limited to enough that I choose not to bring any negative energy with me on my rides. I want to enjoy my bike, the fresh air, the fun of riding and the company of my friends while doing so. If it means paying a couple of bucks, it's OK.

    Be realistic, this isn't a sky is falling situation. The internet and this forum makes it easy to propagate plenty of opinions, negativity and reluctance to comply with the fees at the park now, but see the forest for the trees.

    "Ollie, what will you say when you have to pay a separate "fee" for every public place you ride and that you already support with your taxes?"

    I don't really have the opinion that everything is already paid for with the share of taxes that I, or any of us pay, so I'm not on board there. If that was the case, I would wish that my taxes educated the masses, fed the hungry, housed and clothed the homeless, provided healthcare for all of us, with the net result being a healthier, safer and more civilized society with less crime. Access to parks for recreational bicycle riding would be pretty low on the list. Just saying, keep it real.

  2. #102
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    The entire advocacy issue is about fairness and moving the barriers to inclusiveness. The Marin Bicycle Trails Council folded because they got very little support from the community. The message, the focus, the leadership, didn't seem to hit the nail on the head to facilitate progress. Or people just didn't want to be involved in advocacy in their free time. It may be that there was no nail to hit. Few seemed to care much about the end of MBTC except to say it was a shame.

    It was a shame. There were a few people who worked really hard for many years.

    For many just paying the $3 is simpler than getting behind advocating for fairness in pricing where no meaningful effort seems to exist. That only makes sense. That said, I doubt that many of those folks would not, say, sign a petition or something else convenient to protest the lack of fairness.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 01-17-2013 at 07:48 AM.
    I don't rattle.

  3. #103
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    Just bought my annual pass

    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie_G View Post
    ...If you do find yourself arguing with a ranger or getting a ticket because you refuse to pay, please stay to the right as to not block the trails.


    I've been riding CC for years and usually get out there 2-3 times a month so I was happy to hear about FOCC taking over operations to keep the park open. I see $35 a year as a small price to pay to continue enjoying the trails. This only works out to about $1.17 per ride for me. Considering I need to drive over from the East Bay to ride CC, I'm paying much more in tolls and gas so the added cost doesn't really faze me.

    No real concerns for paying for something that was previously "free" or tax subsidized. This is par for the course living in California. Think about all the the toll increases we've seen in the last decade, funding cuts to education that now require higher out-of-pocket contributions from teachers/students/parents for things like supplies, sports and music programs. This is an unfortunate but growing trend but at least the cost is negligible IMHO

  4. #104
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    This might be a little political but...

    Is $3 going to break anyone on this forum, probably not. Where does it end $3 here $5 there soon you are talking some serious money. But looking at big picture $500,000 a year is no chump change.

    Our Gov't is broke we can't just go on with business as usual. Gov't always asks for more money, instead of looking for ways to save. The FOCC needs to look at the budget and find ways to save money, maybe cut unnecessary expenditures. The parks are about the beautiful outdoors and trails that immerse you in that beauty. If it's between losing some amenities like picnic benches and BBQ pits or closing the park all together. I'd rather have the bare basics TRAILS open to EVERYONE for FREE then charging people to pay for things we don't need.

  5. #105
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    I
    don't really have the opinion that everything is already paid for with the share of taxes that I, or any of us pay, so I'm not on board there. If that was the case, I would wish that my taxes educated the masses, fed the hungry, housed and clothed the homeless, provided healthcare for all of us, with the net result being a healthier, safer and more civilized society with less crime. Access to parks for recreational bicycle riding would be pretty low on the list. Just saying, keep it real.

    Your taxes would need to be a whole lot higher than what they are now to do those things...
    In my opinon we in CA already subsidize irresponsible dirtbags and foreign college students enough.
    It's not about the fee for some of us. It's about the fee differential, the loss of the better trails in the park and the gov reaching deeper and deeper into our pockets to pay for out of control expenses. And yes, I have a 6k$ bike and I wont kick down 3 bucks for what FOCC is "providing". What they are offering is no departure from status quo in Marin. In short, it's just not worth 3$.

  6. #106
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    And now it appears the worst is starting to happen -- FoCC is sanitizing the trails.
    China Camp Trail Sanitation

  7. #107
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    Here is a great post on the vanilla trail experience that unfortunately is the status quo of the bike advocates:

    http://www.bermstyle.com/the-secret-...regional-park/ - this should be required reading for anyone who will determine the experience mountain bikers will have. The 680 model unfortunately is what is seen as a success for mountain bikers. We are allowed to ride it but being allowed to be present is not good enough for me. Obviously a vanilla trail does not bring in mountain bikers. That may be what these groups want. Again no proof but for now it is what will be crammed down all of our collective necks. Conspiracy or not. The only thing that will change the current state of affairs is to give feedback to FOCC and demand that MCBC represents all forms of dirt riding, including DH and "extreme" riding. Right now this type of riding is seen as a fringe element that does not require representation. We need to change that.

  8. #108
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    Letter sent. Also, I was hoping the parks would shut down - what, are they going to carry the trails away with them? All this means is no regulation, so tell me why it was good that china camp was "saved?"

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by normarin View Post
    Letter sent. Also, I was hoping the parks would shut down - what, are they going to carry the trails away with them? All this means is no regulation, so tell me why it was good that china camp was "saved?"
    Worst case it could have been sold to developers. So it isn't all bad.

  10. #110
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    similar, but different

    hmmm....so maybe a pattern is developing? $8 parking fees at sonoma coast beaches!!!

    Sonoma County Zoning Board rejects beach parking fee proposal-->
    Sonoma County zoning board rejects beach parking fee proposal | PressDemocrat.com
    I bet you'd do the same if they was you!

  11. #111
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    ya never thought about that, but you can imagine the uproar that would create in Marin. Not sure it would ever happen but I guess you have a point. Sanitized trail > pavement

  12. #112
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    One small thought regarding the CC fee and its impact. I realized that as other parks begin to see this as a source of income that they will in turn begin charging. Soon, each and every park will have a fee. Imagine riding in the east bay where passing through two, three, or even four of the small adjacent parks easily occurs, and in each park being required to pay. Ouch.
    My Cycling Videos: Vimeo | YouTube | My Website

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanskellner View Post
    One small thought regarding the CC fee and its impact. I realized that as other parks begin to see this as a source of income that they will in turn begin charging. Soon, each and every park will have a fee. Imagine riding in the east bay where passing through two, three, or even four of the small adjacent parks easily occurs, and in each park being required to pay. Ouch.
    Exactly one of my sentient points on this issue.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by raleigh5 View Post
    hmmm....so maybe a pattern is developing? $8 parking fees at sonoma coast beaches!!!

    Sonoma County Zoning Board rejects beach parking fee proposal-->
    Sonoma County zoning board rejects beach parking fee proposal | PressDemocrat.com
    Parking at Dillon Beach (private lot) and the Landing cost $8-$10, parking at Doran is maybe $5 or something, Stinson charges too, pretty standard and has been for a long time...

    Re: China Camp being "saved", it could have been fine if it was "closed", no doubt the mtb community would maintain the trails and they'd stay the same or even improve.

    Re: new fees, for better or worse, it is what it is, and for the moment it's probably better to comply rather than risk confrontation and/or tickets. Perhaps by paying we can have more valid input...

    Re: what FOC sees as "improvements" to the trails are something that should have some vocal input from the mtb community about. I agree with everyone else that mowing a section that was previously fine is destructive and uncalled for, although it can be mitigated somewhat after the equipment is gone by placing large branch borders on the downhill side and raking it back in on both sides to return it to a more singletrack type section and let nature do the rest, but still...I rode it yesterday and was surprised...

  15. #115
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    ^^^ no....far from standard for the State beaches. doran is regional/county park; dillon is private parking lot, as stated.....the beach is free.
    I bet you'd do the same if they was you!

  16. #116
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    You people kill me, trying to justify charging for every place as a result of out of control state spending.
    Funny.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie_G View Post
    Re: new fees, for better or worse, it is what it is, and for the moment it's probably better to comply rather than risk confrontation and/or tickets. Perhaps by paying we can have more valid input...
    No, by willingly paying additional fees for public lands that we already support through taxes -and higher fees than those charged to other users at that- the MTB community will legitimize FoCC's fee structure and show other park "savior" groups as well as state and local governments that they too can successfully enforce the same model everywhere else and our community will acquiesce willingly.

  18. #118
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    Interesting. I live on San Pedro Rd so parking isn't an issue, nor is the money for a trail use pass, but I'd rather there be an option to volunteer time. I can't imagine much of the money making it back into the park with the amount of bureaucratic red tape a the state level.

  19. #119
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    Not just red tape, but huuuuuge pension and retirement. Alot of state and county workers are getting 90% of their salary as retirees, forever! Plus healthcare in retirement, Forever. So they raid the budget from state parks, hoping nobody will notice. I am going to take my chances and not pay for use here, as I already paid for this once in my taxes. Sorry, that is how it is going to work for some of us. If you do pay, I respect that. That is also a legitimate choice.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie_G View Post

    Re: new fees, for better or worse, it is what it is, and for the moment it's probably better to comply rather than risk confrontation and/or tickets. Perhaps by paying we can have more valid input...
    The mountain biker's history with compliance with rules that are unfair is clear. That said, the vast majority of us follow the rules pretty well. Our reputation in the community is what it is. Yet reputation has less to do with how we are treated than the extant bias of certain user groups to keep the trails to themselves. It is my belief that "being good" has gotten us no more validity that we ever had.

    What has moved us forward is:

    1) the sheer number of mountain bikers; being a major user group.
    2) the gradual integration of mountain bikers in the community's sense of itself.
    3) the disappearance of haters by any number of means.

    The fee is what it is. It's unequal application, though, is simply a clear factor perpetuating unfair access. As such, the argument that we are just whining about a paltry couple of bucks is well wide of the mark, simplistic, and dismissive of advocacy efforts.
    I don't rattle.

  21. #121
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    The fee might be unfair, but either way i'm not paying money to support an organization that sanitizes legal trails and blocks all the good ones with fencing every year. Its comical that they have to replace the fences every season around CC, what a waist of time and energy.

    We should get a petition and letter signing together to send to FOCC and MCBC.

    I don't want them taking over the back side!

  22. #122
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    Who knows how to create an online petition?
    I don't rattle.

  23. #123
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    http://www.change.org/petition

    One of many just google online petition.

  24. #124
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    Let me reword that;
    does anyone have experience with an ohnine petition vehicle that they thought was good.
    I don't rattle.

  25. #125
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    Sign up for the bike patrol:

    Friends of China Camp: Volunteer Opportunities

    Become an enforcer, of non enforcement

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