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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninertom View Post
    I have not seen an explanation for the price difference yet,
    I talked to the head of FOCC and asked about the price difference. He said that he was pressured to not charge a fee for hikers at all which he did not agree to. The reason mountain bikers pay more is that they use more of the park than a hiker would. I cannot argue with that. I don't like the price differences but I think the FOCC is doing a great job in saving a very important state park. I just hope that they can keep it up. Raising 500k is tough enough, imagine doing it year after year.
    I also heard that that the Terrapin Family Band will be playing the fundraiser in June at China Camp Village. Don't miss it!

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarinRR View Post
    Speaking of China Camp, how are the trails looking for riding this weekend?
    I did a frontside loop yesterday (all of Shoreline and Bay View) and there was a lot of surface water running on the trails, but very little mud. Fenders would have been nice. Visibility from the vista points was incredible.

    The pay station at the Miwok entrance didn't seem to have a functioning card reader. Fortunately I had some small bills.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninertom View Post
    I have not seen an explanation for the price difference yet, so I'll hold off judgement for now. I beleive FOCC is preparing a respond to the many questions people have about the pass system. It should appear in the MCBC newsletter as soon as it's available. It's a good group of people over at FOCC. Heck they raised 1/2 a million dollars to keep the park open and they've bent over backwards to enfranchise mountain bikers in the process.

    BTW, there's a Trail Work Day coming up at China Camp on Sunday, January 27. You can get the details at MCBC website, marinbike dot org. Hope to see you out there!
    Could someone enlighten me on how FOCC bent over backwards to enfranchise moutain bikers? No sarcasm intended.

    I have mixed feelings about this group and do not intend to give them any money at this point. That's because the quality of the "product" (ie: trail) I'd be paying for will be reduced as the funds and volunteers are used in an attempt to close trails. I think park regulars will know what I'm talking about. Perhaps in the long term they have good intentions for bikes, but I dont have a lifetime to grind away in the civic process as the bureaucracy/hiker/horse interests block efforts to create trail in Marin. Yes I understand apathy is part of the mtb community's problem and I should participate etc., but with results like the 680 trail...there isn't much incentive. Trancho flow trail? different story-there's a lot of light at the end of that tunnel and a great example of how easy it can be without the bureaucracy. Stafford lake? great that it got approved, still about 800k short though. It's just that on public lands in Marin it's nearly hopeless and I hate losing what little we have.

    On the other hand, the same groups opposed to bikes have done an amazing job of keeping the condos and freeways away in this county for the last 70 years...so they aren't all bad.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by vernonator View Post
    I talked to the head of FOCC and asked about the price difference. He said that he was pressured to not charge a fee for hikers at all which he did not agree to. The reason mountain bikers pay more is that they use more of the park than a hiker would.
    I was afraid we would hear something like this; a total contrivance, a sham, sustaining the usual bias. I can certainly argue this point. How much of the park we use is irrelevant. Should runners pay $2.50? Mountain bikers came forward big time to make that money possible, too, and are the major park user in terms of numbers and frequency. And we still get the short end of the stick.

    Same old wine in a brand new bottle. Come on you guys!
    I don't rattle.

  5. #80
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    What the...??????

    Quote Originally Posted by NoBalance View Post
    How about this. I pay the fee and FOCC opens up the "backside" of china camp and adds trail signs, maintains the trails, etc?

    Those trails are maintained better than the China Camp trails will ever be, any under level of funding. Why screw up such a good thing?
    Live to Ride, Ride to Live

  6. #81
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    i think we should consider filing a formal complaint around the differential pricing. this isn't even a govt body discriminating against bikers....

  7. #82
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    A fee for something that was always free is awkward. Failing to consider and embrace the largest and most important user group at China Camp and then skewing the fee structure against them by contrivance makes the institution of these fees harder to take.

    What this actually boils down to is the fees, and the rate charged, are done because they can do it. That makes it an edict; our way or the highway. As someone who drove substantial numbers of mountain bikers to support the FoCC and will have to represent these "facts" (same old same old) I am now in an uneasy position.

    We just held an event at Rockville. Rates are $3 per person and $1 for each dog which must be leashed. We spoke to Ranger Teri in advance as a large number of folks would be descending on their fairly small park. They accommodated us concerning our beverage choice and arranged to take care of our refuse.

    Most of us paid our $3 with the line at the Kiosk of nearly 80 riders being problematic. In consideration of this we collected donations on behalf of the park later at the social hour. The BTCEB also made a nice donation. We support Rockville and Rockville respected our needs. Goodwill begets goodwill.

    You all know as well as I do that if mountain bikers feel unfairly treated they will ignore what they feel are unfair restrictions. This is hardly a modality of behavior limited to mountain bikers but a well-known social phenomonon. If a social body is ill-considered they will sabotage the consideration.

    What ultimately happens then is that such riders become defined as scofflaws and are demonized. Fingers get pointed by folks who want to have things their way.
    Sound familiar?

    This is not 1988 or 1998 or even 2008 anymore folks. Mountain bikers are powerful and numerous. They have jobs, businesses, homes, pay taxes, provide jobs, donate to the community, they vote, have kids, grandkids for crissakes. They are folks just like anyone else though may be a bit healthier. They deserve to be treated with respect.

    The fee at least has precedent with other parks. Contributors here have cited "law." So okay. This fee structure, in spite of contrivances driven by special influence explaining it, is unfair.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Trail Use and Parking Fee Program Announced at China Camp-130112_721e.jpg  

    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 01-14-2013 at 01:34 PM.
    I don't rattle.

  8. #83
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    For those concerned with the fee structure - why not buy the Parking Pass for $60? You can park anywhere you like and that Annual Pass includes trail use for up to 4 hikers, bikers or equestrians.

    Problem solved!

  9. #84
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    Maybe because I don't want to subsidize beaurocracy and an unprofitable concession venture?

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninertom View Post
    For those concerned with the fee structure - why not buy the Parking Pass for $60? You can park anywhere you like and that Annual Pass includes trail use for up to 4 hikers, bikers or equestrians.Problem solved!
    No it isn't:

    1) It ignores the unfairness.

    2) It is a flagrant sleezy car salesman manipulation which presses people to spend more than they otherwise would have. It suggests that whatever line one has drawn is irrelevant if you look at a number a different way.

    3) It continues to implement it on mountain bikers who do not benefit from a pass by infrequency.

    4) It continues to implement it on mountain bikers who are not a party to discussion.

    It perpetuates and supports unequal treatment of mountain bikers to their disadvantage. Other local parks who have these fee structures don't do this. It is time for this sort of thing to change.
    I don't rattle.

  11. #86
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    You guys will type a lot to justify not spending $3. Now it's because FOCC didn't kiss your ring first?
    Please either pay the fee, or work to change the system.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoBalance View Post
    How about this. I pay the fee and FOCC opens up the "backside" of china camp and adds trail signs, maintains the trails, etc?
    WHA???!!!!! No lets not do that.

  13. #88
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    Can't you guys just go in, pay $2 and call it a day?
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  14. #89
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    I paid my three dollars today at the automatic kiosk at Miwok. I also got stopped TWICE by the same ranger. Once at the Miwok Porta-Potties, and once where Peacock dumps back down towards the ranger station. I am a retired police officer, with credentials, so the second time he stopped me, I checked his. This particular ranger is a sworn Ca. Peace officer, fully able to write citations, effect arrests, etc. If this is going to be the norm there, not sure if I will continue to ride it. Also, the "Day Pass" is printed out on super thin "lottery results" type paper, and was saturated with sweat by the second time he stopped me, and almost unreadable. This same machine can print out a yearly pass, so I have questions about the durability of a so called season pass. The signs mandate that you carry the pass with you while using the trail. No problem paying, but will have a problem if everyone is stopped all the time.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by fgiraffe View Post
    You guys will type a lot to justify not spending $3. Now it's because FOCC didn't kiss your ring first?
    Please either pay the fee, or work to change the system.
    That is precisely what is needed but any successful advocacy requires discussion to find understanding. One of the most valuable functions of MTBR is facilitating discussion. It provides a venue for the exchange of ideas. In the time we have spent here much has been revealed. We have all heard things we don' t support and things we do but clarity is coming.

    As has been said before, getting mtb'ers to act politically is very hard. Their force can only be harnessed if we can find, first consensus, second where to place the energy, and third creating a way for a busy Mtb community to participate.
    I don't rattle.

  16. #91
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    I have no problem paying fees if I feel the money is well spent.

    $500K annually to run CC.

    I would like to see a budget from FOCC. If I am going to pay I want to know how my money is spent.

    Majority of money should be for trail maintenance and trail expansion. Not to pay some bureaucrat a salary to hand out tickets.

  17. #92
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    Well, after re-reading this entire thread, I can honestly say I will not be comfortable paying to ride my bike at Chinacamp State Park. I will continue riding here and paying my state taxes (Property tax, sales tax etc.). I will see what changes occur over the next 2 or 3 years and maybe it will make more sense to pay double tax then. I have been riding here since 1979 (age 11 on a stingray), and will continue to support all state parks, the politicians can appropriate the funds as they see fit. I will admit, If I made $100,000 per year, I would whore myself out and buy passes, but it already costs me $20 in fuel/bridgetoll (lots more tax in those 2 items, huh?). Sorry folks, I am taxed out. I would rather pay tickets.
    Last edited by hoolie; 01-14-2013 at 10:17 PM.

  18. #93
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    When the potential park closures were first announced this is exactly what I feared would happen. Local groups would come together to "save" the parks. Now that the state has a few test cases look for them to threaten closure of more parks where they think a local group will take over the costs. And we who ride in many state parks will have to pay at every one of them. I had mixed emotions when FOCC was putting together their proposal. I respect them for taking the steps to ensure it remained open but also worried that once the process started it was over for riding in a tax payer supported "free" state park. Found park money? 2013 CA budget surplus? Doesn't matter anymore. When I look at how much the state takes out of every paycheck and the roads and services continue to drop it gets me pissed to pay another fee. Even more so with the BS higher fee for biking. "we use more of the park". Bulls#$t!!! Call it what it is, an antibiking let's make them pay more attitude.

  19. #94
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    ^^^^^^What he said...

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninertom View Post
    For those concerned with the fee structure - why not buy the Parking Pass for $60? You can park anywhere you like and that Annual Pass includes trail use for up to 4 hikers, bikers or equestrians.

    Problem solved!
    I don't drive there. I ride. Same as I have since I was in middle school.

  21. #96
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    I seriously doubt that they are going to give anyone a ticket for not having a pass. I think that it is going to be more voluntary. Also the best trails out there are not within the state park so i wouldn't worry too much about this.

  22. #97
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    looks like the headlands for me...it is horrible to raise sales and income taxes and also increase fees. how much money could they possibly need to run this state....uhhh, forget that last question.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    I was afraid we would hear something like this; a total contrivance, a sham, sustaining the usual bias. I can certainly argue this point.

    Same old wine in a brand new bottle. Come on you guys!
    Same old whine all right.

    Even though I usually try to hit it on weekdays I'm looking forward to lighter crowds at CC.
    If you do find yourself arguing with a ranger or getting a ticket because you refuse to pay, please stay to the right as to not block the trails.

    Thanks in advance!

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie_G View Post
    Same old whine all right.

    Even though I usually try to hit it on weekdays I'm looking forward to lighter crowds at CC.
    If you do find yourself arguing with a ranger or getting a ticket because you refuse to pay, please stay to the right as to not block the trails.

    Thanks in advance!
    Ollie, what will you say when you have to pay a separate "fee" for every public place you ride and that you already support with your taxes? Are you so wealthy that it means nothing to you, or is it that you only ride one place? Doesn't it bother you that you pay more than hikers or runners, whose impacts are the equal of bikes? Of course, since you're so excited on kowtowing to the new "managers" of CC and double paying for your "right" to use our public lands, I assume that you would have no problem paying to ride on Marin Water lands, GGNRA lands, City of San Rafael lands, etc. I bet you'll welcome paying 3 different fees at 3 different kiosks while enjoying one ride around CC from Dominican. I won't pay, I'll still be out there riding, and I won't be alone. The park doesn't need FOCC, FOCC has no right to charge me again for public lands of which I already support through taxes, and it certainly has no legitimate reason to attempt to charge me more for the same "product" as it does other user groups.

  25. #100
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    i have less of a problem forking over $3 to ride china camp, than paying $6 to drive into the city or sitting through a donation spiel at willow creek to ride there. our tax dollars get dumped into those 'projects' as well. china camp is just such a superb feel good ride.....at least to me. i think a lot more is being read into this FOCC thing than is warranted. maybe it at least deserves a chance eh? i do have 1 question--> do u guys building/riding the unsanctioned trails give a **** that our tax dollars get spent restoring those areas u tear up?
    I bet you'd do the same if they was you!

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