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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tahoe_Rocks View Post
    The only ranger currently out there (who was brought over from MMWD), told me that they are bringing more rangers from other areas for enforcement.
    I'm absolutely not interested in my money going towards anti bike enforcement and destruction of community built (and maintained) trails
    That is exactly what will happen. All done by the FOCC and MCBC. FOCC has already attempted to destroy the social trail network even off of state property.

    Pretty sad as this is my favorite winter riding areas and the location of my first real mountain bike ride when I was 15.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuruAtma View Post
    Who knows? Maybe they'll sell a "right of way" pass, so you can mow people down
    Lexus Lanes in Annadel? Moooooo!
    I don't rattle.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tahoe_Rocks View Post
    The only ranger currently out there (who was brought over from MMWD), told me that they are bringing more rangers from other areas for enforcement.
    I'm absolutely not interested in my money going towards anti bike enforcement and destruction of community built (and maintained) trails
    China Camp State Park's Facebook page recently (on 12/12/2012) announced that Ranger Bob Birkland, formerly at Annadel, was being transferred to China Camp. Not exactly sure he is a friend of the bike:

    http://www.watchsonomacounty.com/201...el-state-park/

  4. #29
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    Another agree to disagree on this one...

    Quote Originally Posted by Plim View Post
    I agree. Don't like this trend at all. I will not be buying a year pass and am unlikely to ride there if I must pay.

    Private land with real singletrack: no problem paying.

    Public land with semi-singletrack, fees imposed by some non-state organization I don't understand: I got a problem with that.

    How about I post a copy of my 540 form on my dash as a parking permit. BS, I'll ride in.
    Just like the fee lot they tried on San Pedro Road, south side, didn't work out too well, it's been empty ever since that sign went up. BTW, where did the 54 mil go?
    Last edited by rglsr; 12-22-2012 at 06:05 PM.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    These groups are indeed the Wolf in Sheep's clothing. MCBC is certainly NOT here to help with dirt cycling at all. If it doesn't have a flag and a basket MCBC wants to kill it. Look rationally at the track record: Stafford lake bike park? DOA. Bills trail open to bikes? DOA. Now fees for China Camp from the very same group that has been trying for ages to close the social network on the San Rafael side, a network that has been volunteer built for DECADES. These groups to not support dirt riding they only want to use it as a pawn to sacrifice.
    Hey guys I just want to say that I feel like an idiot for writing this. I was upset about what is happening at China Camp but I was mostly upset about how mountain bikers have been treated in Marin and the Bay Area. MCBC is here to change things for the better. Bills will open, I have high hopes for Stafford lake and because of MCBCs hard work I know Marin will be a better place. I want to apologize to MCBC and anyone else I have offended. I am still very concerned about China Camp but I had no right to say any of this plus I was totally wrong. Hopefully this thread will fade away

  6. #31
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    Well, I give more credit for Bill's to IMBA NorCal and local longtime advocates; you know who you are.

    MCBC taking on dirt is a good thing.They have tools, relationships , money, and expertise to take this on.
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  7. #32
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    i would like to be supportive of this, but i just can't. are these state parks or not? if so, they should be paid for out of the highest state income taxes collected in the entire united states (by far). if private, i would understand charging fees for services. it doesn't mean i won't pay when i ride there, but i think this entire situation is ridiculous. where does all the money go?

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    snip...

    China Camp is a State Park.

    I'm not sure why these folks think they have any right to charge anything. I see that they have pressures and needs but I don't see a right. It is akin to putting a toll booth on a road and demanding fees.

    That MCBC supports this means nothing in terms of a right.

    Tamarancho asks for a fee but that is owned by the Boy Scouts.

    These folks "own" nothing.

    snip...
    I agree with you. And I'm concerned about several things.


    1. There's an organization here that's private and is taking over management of a state park. A step towards privatization of our state parks is a bad thing.
    2. Imbalanced fees. Why charge more for cyclists than hikers/runners/etc? That just reeks of bias.
    3. MCBC supporting this amazes me. These fees (and imbalanced) are not helping cyclists. I thought MCBC was a group supporting cycling? Maybe not so much mountain biking.
    4. The multi-million dollar slush funds and waste that is being found within the state park bureaucracy tells me there's a need to clean up that act before having the users of the park paying for the graft and waste.
    5. How are the "fees" being used? Show me where the fees will be used, why they are imbalanced, and a plan. At the moment the fees could go towards building new trails that are off limits to cyclists. Nothing says that couldn't happen. Will FOCC end up skimming off large management fees? Could there be a FOCC slush fund to mirror the state parks?
    6. Impact on educational groups that would like to use the park. For example, Trips for Kids and the High School MTB teams are directly impacted. Look at the huge benefits these groups provide for kids. China Camp is one of the few places in Marin that offers easy access to the trails. These fees will now place barriers to these groups.


    Jeesh, I feel I could go on and on.

    At the moment I feel this is a bad precedent.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanskellner View Post
    I agree with you. And I'm concerned about several things.

    [*] Impact on educational groups that would like to use the park. For example, Trips for Kids and the High School MTB teams are directly impacted. Look at the huge benefits these groups provide for kids. China Camp is one of the few places in Marin that offers easy access to the trails. These fees will now place barriers to these groups.[/LIST]

    Jeesh, I feel I could go on and on.

    At the moment I feel this is a bad precedent.
    That is what was striking me the most... from a social justice standpoint your are essentially making it more difficult for lower income families to take advantage of the recreational and fitness opportunities at China Camp... a state park. The message that comes across, while unintentional, marginalizes groups who cannot afford to pay fees to be outside.

  10. #35
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    I feel the best thing we could do as MTBers is join FOCC. Also join the bike patrol they want to set up. I'd rather have a pleasant chat with a fellow rider than a "run in" with an overzealous hiker who has hiking sticks, authority and wants to see my hall pass.

  11. #36
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    I wonder if they will try to ban the free parking on the road and force everyone onto the "pay to park" lot.

    How many members of FOCC are mtn bike friendly? I know several of the neighbors had a very NIMBY attitude about mtn bikers. They claim due to the sheer number of mtn bikers, they can no longer hike or ride horses on the trails. They really want to get ride of mtn bikers.

    Historically, the area was a motorcycle off-road area back in the early 60's. There were races and even an Trans-AMA motocross race. Participants included 5 time world champion Roger DeCoster. The area was turned into a state park and the motorcycle club relocated, but many of the original trails were old motorcycle trails.

    I hope this doesn't go down the same path as off-road motorcycle riding. We pay fees for OHV areas and trail maintenance. The fees increase and they are used for enforcement to write tickets. More fees, more cops on the trails.

  12. #37
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    So what ever happened to the $53 million that was found. Was it just an accounting error?

    Ironic is we keep raising taxes and creating new fees. Now I have to pay to use the state park in my backyard.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    I feel the best thing we could do as MTBers is join FOCC. Also join the bike patrol they want to set up. I'd rather have a pleasant chat with a fellow rider than a "run in" with an overzealous hiker who has hiking sticks, authority and wants to see my hall pass.
    Great idea. Because if some tries to write me a ticket, he better have a badge and be a sworn officer in the state of California.

  14. #39
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    A "ticket" begs any authority to collect fines or exclude usage. That requires power and leverage which goes back to any right to charge, collect. It is based on the question of any authority to control access.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    These groups are indeed the Wolf in Sheep's clothing. MCBC is certainly NOT here to help with dirt cycling at all. If it doesn't have a flag and a basket MCBC wants to kill it. Look rationally at the track record: Stafford lake bike park? DOA. Bills trail open to bikes? DOA. Now fees for China Camp from the very same group that has been trying for ages to close the social network on the San Rafael side, a network that has been volunteer built for DECADES. These groups to not support dirt riding they only want to use it as a pawn to sacrifice.
    I'm on the MCBC Off-Road Committee, and this sort of hyperbole is pretty silly and unhelpful.

    1. Stafford Lake is hardly DOA - its CEQA document was approved, and the funding details are currently being worked out and should be settled in the next few months. The passage of Measure A was an important step in helping to move this project forward.

    2. The EIR for Bill's Trail was approved, and the time period for which the EIR could be challenged passed without a lawsuit from MCL or other groups. Now that that hurdle is cleared, State Parks is in the process of moving forward with implementation, which will require some regrading work along the trail that will likely have to be contracted out.

    3. The current leadership of FOCC is pretty different from the original group that helped to establish CC as a park in the first place, and is quite aware that the support of the mountain biking community is critical to stewardship at CC. I suggest joining FOCC and becoming part of the dialogue; its leadership is still trying to find its way re: MTB issues (they tried to hold an MTB event the day after some other huge MTB event, if I remember correctly, not realizing that not many people would have the energy to show up).
    Quote Originally Posted by jbt56
    Are you a whiny Marin liberal, or a hand-wringing Berkeley liberal?

  16. #41
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    I for one have no problem paying a fee to the FOCC for parking and riding. For me, the $10-12 (figuring me and my son) isn't that much considering it costs me about $25 in gas to take my truck out there and a $5 bridge toll. When China camp was going to be closed, the FOCC stepped up and came up with a plan. By that token however, I don't have a problem paying a small fee to use state parks because they are subsidized and many don't use them; I don't expect others to pay for my enjoyment.

    I do have a big issue with the state parks department. The FOCC had to step up because there was going to be a $120 million shortfall. As we all know, it turns out the state parks had $54 million hidden in bank accounts. Now that the money has been "found" the State should pay a significant amount to FOCC for its management of the park.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piranha426 View Post
    I'm on the MCBC Off-Road Committee, and this sort of hyperbole is pretty silly and unhelpful.

    3. The current leadership of FOCC is pretty different from the original group that helped to establish CC as a park in the first place, and is quite aware that the support of the mountain biking community is critical to stewardship at CC. I suggest joining FOCC and becoming part of the dialogue; its leadership is still trying to find its way re: MTB issues (they tried to hold an MTB event the day after some other huge MTB event, if I remember correctly, not realizing that not many people would have the energy to show up).

    Great news re #1 & #2. thanks for the update.

    #3? Well, the FOCC have to learn about mtb'ers and advocacy somehow. I don't blame mountain bikers for being how they are. that isa waste of time. Outreach for any group needs to be understood and tailored to work well.
    I don't rattle.

  18. #43
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    If they had any understanding of mtn bikers, they'd open a Lemonade stand that sold beer.

    Or sell trail use coupons for 1/2 off their first beer at Marin Brewing Company.

    Fully funded for the year by July.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piranha426 View Post
    I'm on the MCBC Off-Road Committee, and this sort of hyperbole is pretty silly and unhelpful.

    1. Stafford Lake is hardly DOA - its CEQA document was approved, and the funding details are currently being worked out and should be settled in the next few months. The passage of Measure A was an important step in helping to move this project forward.

    2. The EIR for Bill's Trail was approved, and the time period for which the EIR could be challenged passed without a lawsuit from MCL or other groups. Now that that hurdle is cleared, State Parks is in the process of moving forward with implementation, which will require some regrading work along the trail that will likely have to be contracted out.

    3. The current leadership of FOCC is pretty different from the original group that helped to establish CC as a park in the first place, and is quite aware that the support of the mountain biking community is critical to stewardship at CC. I suggest joining FOCC and becoming part of the dialogue; its leadership is still trying to find its way re: MTB issues (they tried to hold an MTB event the day after some other huge MTB event, if I remember correctly, not realizing that not many people would have the energy to show up).
    Ya. I said I was a stupid head and I was really sorry. Post number 30. I also bought TB a beer and we talked about it. And I'm sorry and I'm stupid. I just really love that area and there is some serious blood, sweat, tears and joyfull noises at stake. Loads of memories on that ridge from 15 years old and on. I was scared and upset about how MTBers are treated. I've seen favorite trails disappear before...

  20. #45
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    When you dig so much dirt your brain turns to mud. Been there!
    I don't rattle.

  21. #46
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    If I am paying 50% more than the hiker, I have the right of way!
    STRAVA!!!!!!!!

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTT77 View Post
    If I am paying 50% more than the hiker, I have the right of way!
    STRAVA!!!!!!!!
    But you're paying the same as me. Wilbur, get ready for a physics lesson.
    - Mr Ed.



    (There seems to be a new species of horse in Marin, the ass is on top.)

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevXR View Post
    But you're paying the same as me. Wilbur, get ready for a physics lesson.
    - Mr Ed.
    Ha! That's good point. F=M*A

    But, you underestimate a horse's "fight or flight" reaction when they see me coming around the corner, screaming, wearing a grizzly bear head for a helmet.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTT77 View Post
    Ha! That's good point. F=M*A

    But, you underestimate a horse's "fight or flight" reaction when they see me coming around the corner, screaming, wearing a grizzly bear head for a helmet.
    You really don't know that much about horses. Trained right, a mtn bike would be nothing. Bring it.
    Plus, my draft horse has a medical marijuana card for his glaucoma. He ain't scared. Kind of slow and watches birds a lot...


    (Just kidding. My friend does have one of the jousting horses.)

  25. #50
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    The bear head got me thinking. I can honestly say that I have put on a full gorilla suit and ran around China Camp in a "Hunting for Big Foot" children's birthday party. All the children were given cameras and they tried to take photos of me. Several other adults were shaking bushes to misdirect the children. It was a fun day as we kept them running around all over the park. $2 per kid or adult, how much for a gorilla?

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