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  1. #1
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    Tilden Cyclist Dead in crash with SUV

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...ke21.DTL&tsp=1

    Bicyclist killed in Tilden Park crash

    Bay City News

    Monday, June 21, 2010

    (06-21) 12:49 PDT -- A 40-year-old Oakland man was killed while riding his bicycle in Tilden Regional Park on Saturday, East Bay Regional Park District police said.

    William Flint II was riding downhill on South Park Drive near the Grizzly picnic area at about 2 p.m. when his bicycle drifted into oncoming traffic, police said.

    He crashed into the side of a 2003 Ford Expedition sport utility vehicle.

    The driver of the SUV, with help from an on-duty park employee, rendered aid while they waited for paramedics to arrive.

    Flint was taken by helicopter to John Muir Medical Center in Walnut Creek, where he was pronounced dead, police said

  2. #2
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    Same story with most Car vs Bike incidents: The only person left alive gets to define what happened.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoBalance
    Same story with most Car vs Bike incidents: The only person left alive gets to define what happened.
    Crash scene investigators are not complete morons and there is no world conspiracy against cycling, IMHO.

    R.I.P.

  4. #4
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    damn

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoBalance
    Same story with most Car vs Bike incidents: The only person left alive gets to define what happened.
    That's a pretty narrow view, imho. I was driving on Paradise Drive in Tiburon last weekend and saw at least half a dozen cyclists with the head over the double yellow while leaning on turns. I'm surprised that there aren't more fatalities on that road.

  6. #6
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    I didn't make a statement regarding whether or not the report was true, did I?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoBalance
    I didn't make a statement regarding whether or not the report was true, did I?
    It looked like you did.

  8. #8
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    Someone needs reading comprehension 101, apparently.

  9. #9
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    I rode up this road a few months ago. I saw some riders bombing down.

    While I have always been a fast road descender, I did think some riders who probably weren't the best handlers were going a little too fast on some blind turns, because the road was closed.

    I don't know what happened, but if this road was supposed to be clear and it wasn't...

  10. #10
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    William Flint II was riding downhill on South Park Drive near the Grizzly picnic area at about 2 p.m. when his bicycle drifted into oncoming traffic, police said.

    He crashed into the side of a 2003 Ford Expedition sport utility vehicle.
    Same story with most Car vs Bike incidents: The only person left alive gets to define what happened.
    There is a perception by the ignorant that riders are little kids out to play, that they do not have the skills or the care to ride defensively and carefully.

    I have no idea what the deal was with the rider or the accident. All I know is that I have NEVER DRIFTED into traffic.

    I have seen lots of drivers drift into my line though.

  11. #11
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    crashed into the SIDE of the SUV?

    I'm a Berkeley resident, and I've ridden down South Park road many, many times over the years.

    It is no doubt "dangerous" from the standpoint of speed.....you can easily get to 50mph if care to.

    The thing that concerns me here is how the bike rider could have hit the side of the SUV, rather than the front.

    There are a couple of points of entry onto South Park road from picnic areas, and trailheads. It is possible that the SUV was exiting one of those areas and thus jutted out into the road, and then the bike rider slammed into the side of the SUV.

    If that is what happened, then it was not that the rider "drifted" onto oncoming traffic.

    Well, hopefully we'll get a real answer as to what happened, but the fact that this is being reported as a SIDE impact rather than a FRONT impact makes me wary.

  12. #12
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    Well, I'm an OK dirt rider but not very experienced on road. I have made the mistake of cutting tight and leaning over the yellow line in corners. Doesn't take too long to realize that could be a fatal mistake.
    My thoughts to the family.
    Don't harsh my mello

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoBalance
    Someone needs reading comprehension 101, apparently.
    No apparent need for that - but you have clearly aced Insinuation 101.

  14. #14
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    It is quite possible that carrying too much speed into a right-hand bend coming down South Park, and then drifting into the oncoming lane was the case - hitting the side of a car, even at a fairly shallow angle, at speed can do a lot of damage. Not to mention the aftermath of the tumble that ensues after one bounces off the sheetmetal. The car-bike incident may not have injured the rider that badly, but could have stunned them enough that they fell uncontrolled to the pavement at 40+. That could easily be your last fall. My feelings go out to the family, and I hope the rider checked out quickly and didn't endure too much.
    R.I.P. Corky 10/97-4/09
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  15. #15
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    Even good riders make mistakes

    South Park Road starts at the top of Wildcat Canyon at the beginning of the creek's watershed between Vollmer peak (1905 ft) and Grizzly Peak (1758 ft). From Grizzly Peak Road going downhill to the north, left on this map, there is over 730 feet of descent on smooth pave running along the edge of Wildcat Creek, intersecting Wildcat Canyon Road.

    It is not just the speeds possible on South Park but the rapid acceleration at any point. Further, while the road is wide open and the apparent sightlines ample, this is not a straight descent and it does undulate. 50 mph is easy to achieve and you can get light in places. At that point, 73 ft per second, a distraction or bad decision, of any kind, can put you in danger. Add to that there is always the occasion for bad luck at over 50 mph or 30 mph for that matter. Then there is oncoming traffic.

    I've heard of cyclists losing life over on the Peninsula in the last few years. I know this road well and at speed, wet, dark and otherwise. Who of us have not been near that edge? Too real.

    Unstoppable force encounters immovable object, regardless of fault. Very, very sad.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Tilden Cyclist Dead in crash with SUV-south-park.jpg  

    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 06-21-2010 at 10:42 PM.

  16. #16
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    Last year or so I was driving down Wildcat Canyon Rd. to San Pablo Dam Rd. in Orinda. I was following a female roadie. While I wished I could pass her, with all the blind curves it was not safe, so I patiently drove behind her. On one pretty good curve to the right, I noticed she was getting close to the center yellow line, which she ultimately crossed slightly. I remember thinking, "Wow... that could have been bad." Well two turns later, she's looking like she's not going to make the turn again and sure enough, an SUV is right there, driving up the hill. She smacked into the side of it and bounced off! I estimate she was going about 20mph and the SUV (who likely hit the brakes) was probably closer to 10mph at the time of impact. Her carbon fiber bike was destroyed, but she was okay, thank goodness. In my opinion, she had no business riding on that road given that she could hardly stay in a car lane at relatively low speeds. She was lucky.

  17. #17
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    its just like MTB if you don't know your limits or push them the outcome may not be all that good....

    I just got a road bike last week (for MTB training) and riding with traffic scares the hell out of me, luckily there are some good roads around my area that have very low traffic or none at all (private road with permission to ride of course)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boognish
    That's a pretty narrow view, imho. I was driving on Paradise Drive in Tiburon last weekend and saw at least half a dozen cyclists with the head over the double yellow while leaning on turns. I'm surprised that there aren't more fatalities on that road.
    I ride the Paradise loop a lot, and I feel like Paradise itself is nothing compared to the short but steep Loma Alta descent. The first few times I rode it, I definitely went too close to the middle line. I'm grateful nothing bad happened, and I learned my lesson. Meanwhile, I've almost been ran over by Porsches on two separate incidents on Paradise... while staying fully within the proper lane.

    I really prefer mountain biking.
    Quote Originally Posted by jbt56
    Are you a whiny Marin liberal, or a hand-wringing Berkeley liberal?

  19. #19
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    My fastest speed on a single seat bike was achieved going down South Park. 57.5mph according to Garmin, Could have done 60, but my nads shriveled up, I pissed myself and sat up. The front end of my road bike feels really light at 50 and could easily see getting into trouble at those speeds. It doesn't take much to hit 50 on South Park.

    My thoughts go out to Mr Flint's friends and family, and to the driver who will have to live with the memory of all of this. Sad situation all around

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    Quote Originally Posted by velocipus
    My fastest speed on a single seat bike was achieved going down South Park. 57.5mph according to Garmin, Could have done 60, but my nads shriveled up, I pissed myself and sat up. The front end of my road bike feels really light at 50 and could easily see getting into trouble at those speeds. It doesn't take much to hit 50 on South Park.

    My thoughts go out to Mr Flint's friends and family, and to the driver who will have to live with the memory of all of this. Sad situation all around

    +1, RIP.

    I ride up around Tilden all the time, being at the base of Spruce, although I never been down South Park Dr (usually stick to Wildcat or Grizzly Peak), but I hear it's a screamer, second to Moeser Ln off Arlington.

  21. #21
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    I travel up Grizzly Peak everyday, for my job, and think cyclist and autos what a poor mix. The road is twisty , narrow, blind etc. I took some freinds, from East Asia, for a tour of the Parks and upon the drive up hill a couple freinds commented "their ride to work is dangerous" I told them it was for leisure, they had confused looks @ this point. In their country bikes, autos, animals litter the road ways which seems really chaotic to me but it's their means of transportation. My family thinks my mt. biking is a bit risky but are quite relieved I don't try and share the road w/ autos - the cyclist will lose in a tangle up.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer
    Last year or so I was driving down Wildcat Canyon Rd. to San Pablo Dam Rd. in Orinda. I was following a female roadie. While I wished I could pass her, with all the blind curves it was not safe, so I patiently drove behind her. On one pretty good curve to the right, I noticed she was getting close to the center yellow line, which she ultimately crossed slightly. I remember thinking, "Wow... that could have been bad." Well two turns later, she's looking like she's not going to make the turn again and sure enough, an SUV is right there, driving up the hill. She smacked into the side of it and bounced off! I estimate she was going about 20mph and the SUV (who likely hit the brakes) was probably closer to 10mph at the time of impact. Her carbon fiber bike was destroyed, but she was okay, thank goodness. In my opinion, she had no business riding on that road given that she could hardly stay in a car lane at relatively low speeds. She was lucky.
    Well, let's say this cyclist made a big mistake...


  23. #23
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    Terrible event

    But why must it be bicycle vs "SUV" all the time. Cyclist vs. "auto" is bad enough.

    Condolences.
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  24. #24
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    Very unfortunate for all involved. May the Lord have Mercy on his family and all of us while we engage in our risky behaviors..

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piranha426
    I ride the Paradise loop a lot, and I feel like Paradise itself is nothing compared to the short but steep Loma Alta descent.
    Camino Alto?

    Morgan

  26. #26
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    SUV is

    3rd millenium-speak for Big Ass Station Wagon.

  27. #27
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    This is so familiar

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro
    Well, let's say this cyclist made a big mistake...


    It is not like we have never seen anything like this and that should be telling in itself.

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  29. #29
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    Realize that

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike
    3rd millenium-speak for Big Ass Station Wagon.
    But inference that the 'SUV's' are the culprits was my take. In reality chances are that an impact could be as damaging with other types of "solid mass moving vehicles".
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  30. #30
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    wow, just wow...
    http://www.kimflint.com/index.html

    Virtual racing on Strava? It looks like Kim is a roadie and rides almost every day. His descent down this hill was beaten in Strava by 4 seconds on June 15.

    http://www.strava.com/rides/114499/s...fforts/1223662

    Is it possible he was trying to get the record back. Problem is you probably have to eat up the whole road to do these 40 mph times. Something is wrong. I don't know anything about this incident btw... just thinking out loud.

    fc
    Last edited by fc; 06-22-2010 at 05:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by morganfletcher
    Camino Alto?

    Morgan

    Sorry, brain fart, yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by jbt56
    Are you a whiny Marin liberal, or a hand-wringing Berkeley liberal?

  32. #32
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    I see the distinction.

    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47
    But inference that the 'SUV's' are the culprits was my take. In reality chances are that an impact could be as damaging with other types of "solid mass moving vehicles".
    But it think it is a statement about the kind of people who pilot them much like buying a huge solid steel 4-ton Buick for grandma to drive so she doesn't get hurt in a collision.

    It is a slur.

  33. #33
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    Duely

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike
    But it think it is a statement about the kind of people who pilot them much like buying a huge solid steel 4-ton Buick for grandma to drive so she doesn't get hurt in a collision.

    It is a slur.
    Noted.
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  34. #34
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    Having said that

    I have personally gotten air in my Tribeca.

  35. #35
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    My sincere condolences to Kim Flint's family and friends. What a horrible tragedy, but the story about downhill racing contests on open roads sends a chill down my spine. I'll stick to hill climb PRs and take it easy on the downhills. Everyone should read this message from Alfie:

    The victim of the incident, Kim Flint, lived in Oakland and was close to
    an old friend of mine. That friend reached out to me yesterday and urged
    me to be safe while I'm out there. "Be safe out there". Maybe we don't
    hear this, or say it nearly enough to each other. Maybe we think we hear
    it too much and tune it out. Or maybe we think it's dumb or corny.

    It's NOT. And often, a momentary lapse of heeding such simple advice can
    be terribly tragic. Like DEAD tragic.

    Most of us here who have descended South Park before know what a
    rip-roaring fast plunge it can be. I have witnessed speed contests on
    this descent. I confess that I myself have thrown some prudence into the
    wind and tried to achieve personal speed records there. That was many
    years ago.

    Some circumstances I've seen since the reports came out send a disturbing
    chill down my spine. It's possible that Kim himself could have been vying
    for a speed record on South Park. Lately, there's been an explosion of
    competitive activity in an internet social network called Strava, where
    people upload the data from their GPS-based cyclocomputers. People
    compete on the basis of ride frequency, cumulative miles, hill climb
    times, and - among other things still - well ... descent speeds. The
    lattermost competition I find absolutely asinine, and I hate to consider
    that it was the basis for which Kim let his wisdom lapse for the sheer
    thrill of recapturing a speed record. At the time of his death, Kim had
    been a previous "record holder" of the descent, and it's possible he was
    trying to recapture the lead in that contest. To those of you who are
    really starting to dive headlong into the Strava mania: your bragging
    rights on the internet are SO not worth risk to yourself and your friends
    if stupidity creeps into your competitive endeavors.

    This is not me passing judgment on Kim, nor a promotion of the idea that
    this is exactly what caused his fatal collision. It could well have been
    a number of other things we'll never know about. But the fact that I feel
    needs to be desperately addressed is that we REALLY need to keep our
    competitive selves in check on open roads, and we need to be in control of
    ourselves and our bikes at ALL TIMES. No contest is worth waging when
    your limbs and life are at stake. And friends are supposed to protect
    each other from harm, not egg them on into greater danger.

    With that, as my friend reached out to me last night, I reach out to every
    one of you. BE SAFE. Do everything in your reach, in every moment, to
    enjoy what we do, but mostly ... get home and live to ride another day.

    Alfie
    Also known as Menso's dad.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by JL de Jong
    With that, as my friend reached out to me last night, I reach out to every
    one of you. BE SAFE. Do everything in your reach, in every moment, to
    enjoy what we do, but mostly ... get home and live to ride another day.
    Alfie
    Werd. Very well said. Thank you, JL! It's very sobering to hear of incidents like this. My condolences to anyone who knew the rider.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by keen
    I travel up Grizzly Peak everyday, for my job, and think cyclist and autos what a poor mix. The road is twisty , narrow, blind etc. I took some freinds, from East Asia, for a tour of the Parks and upon the drive up hill a couple freinds commented "their ride to work is dangerous" I told them it was for leisure, they had confused looks @ this point. In their country bikes, autos, animals litter the road ways which seems really chaotic to me but it's their means of transportation. My family thinks my mt. biking is a bit risky but are quite relieved I don't try and share the road w/ autos - the cyclist will lose in a tangle up.
    I've ridden all over the USA in the last 40 years, and Grizzly Peak/Tilden is probably some of the most roadie friendly riding around. It is narrow and twisty, but it's the drivers and riders, not the road that make a road dangerous. In Tilden there is about as good a relationship between drivers and riders as I've ever found.

    There will always be idiots on both kinds of transportation, but I'd say 99.9% of the drivers in that area at least see Bikes and aren't actively trying to kill you. For the most part the Bay Area is really roadie friendly, outside of a few kooks in the Santa Cruz hills.

    _ Booker C. Bense

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    As the current Strava record holder for the Kings Mountain Rd descent, this was a wakeup call for me. I've stopped using Strava - it was definitely pushing me on descents.

    I feel like I'm in control, only bomb when I know the road well, etc but it only takes one patch of gravel or missed corner or a car/motorcycle across the line to mess things up badly. I'll still descend fast but with much more caution.

    So sad.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratpick
    As the current Strava record holder for the Kings Mountain Rd descent, this was a wakeup call for me. I've stopped using Strava - it was definitely pushing me on descents.

    I feel like I'm in control, only bomb when I know the road well, etc but it only takes one patch of gravel or missed corner or a car/motorcycle across the line to mess things up badly. I'll still descend fast but with much more caution.

    So sad.
    Good info Ratpick. The problem with Strava is on downhill time trials on public roads. If you get beat by 1 second, or 5 seconds, you can get the record back by taking both lanes and taking huge risks. In fact, most records will probably end up with someone taking up the whole road to do a superman descent.

    fc

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois
    Good info Ratpick. The problem with Strava is on downhill time trials on public roads. If you get beat by 1 second, or 5 seconds, you can get the record back by taking both lanes and taking huge risks. In fact, most records will probably end up with someone taking up the whole road to do a superman descent.
    I forsee the need for fat roadie tires, disc brakes, full-face helmets, leathers, and shuttle services. Woohoo! A whole new sport!

    I couldn't easily dig up the pics from termaut's contraption...



    RIP and my sincerest condolences to the family.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbense
    I've ridden all over the USA in the last 40 years, and Grizzly Peak/Tilden is probably some of the most roadie friendly riding around. It is narrow and twisty, but it's the drivers and riders, not the road that make a road dangerous. In Tilden there is about as good a relationship between drivers and riders as I've ever found.

    There will always be idiots on both kinds of transportation, but I'd say 99.9% of the drivers in that area at least see Bikes and aren't actively trying to kill you. For the most part the Bay Area is really roadie friendly, outside of a few kooks in the Santa Cruz hills.

    _ Booker C. Bense
    I wouldn't trust the relationship to site seers or drivers that are not good @ hilly driving. I see plenty of so-so drivers everyday going up Grizzly. Personally I just don't have the desire to Run w/ the bulls, lane splice, cliff dive...

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    I was a good friend of Kim's. I was supposed to see him later that day alive, but instead was in the hospital with his family when we learned he passed away. Whatever judgement we can make from what happened, I just want to tell all on here that a fleeting speed record or fleeting rush, or whatever the reason, is not worth the pain that is now being caused in the aftermath. His family, girlfriend, me as well as a whole host of people are going to be dealing with this for years to come.

    So please just try and be safer out there.

  43. #43
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    I hit 50+ on South Park regulary, in fact it is one of very few roads where I do it (Centennial is the other). However, I drop my speed before entering this turn near the picnic area since I was thrown off balance on it once. I still think that the biggest danger on South Park are off-leash dogs who roam it during months when it is closed to cars. I know people who crashed hitting thosed dogs.

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    Yes it was the sharp curve to the right just beyond the Grizzly picnic area sign...

  45. #45
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    So, all these guys going for these dangerous high-speed pissing matches, are they short guys or something? As in, Napoleonic syndrome? Is it worth killing yourself trying to piss up a rope? I donít get it. Oh yeah, I forgotóI have kids and a family. Díoh!
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  46. #46
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    Cycling is competitive so it's hardly fair to call it a pissing match!

    BTW I emailed strava.com and the CEO responded with some changes to the site - credit to them for being responsive!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopold Porkstacker
    So, all these guys going for these dangerous high-speed pissing matches, are they short guys or something? As in, Napoleonic syndrome? Is it worth killing yourself trying to piss up a rope? I donít get it. Oh yeah, I forgotóI have kids and a family. Díoh!
    Yes, yes, just like your gross generalization, they are all just like that. Just like all guys with kids and a family have had their balls put in a jar by their wives and drive a mini-van.

    Enjoy the view from your high horse and stop sanitizing the trails I ride on.

    Oh yeah...

  48. #48
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
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    Good point. Cycling and competition are entwined.

    Quote Originally Posted by ratpick
    Cycling is competitive so it's hardly fair to call it a pissing match!
    It is a natural thing. Smart competitors, though, know that there is a time and place for competition.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 07-01-2010 at 01:27 PM.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike
    It is a natural thing. Smart competitors, though, know that there is a time and place for competition.
    No one here should complain about going fast, but a road with blind turns and parking pull outs is not the venue.

    RIP to Kim Flint.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by .steve
    Yes, yes, just like your gross generalization, they are all just like that. Just like all guys with kids and a family have had their balls put in a jar by their wives and drive a mini-van.
    There is nothing wrong with minivans.

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