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  1. #1
    I'm really diggin it!
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    You know who you are. You know there is really is nothing I can do to stop you. And you suck the donkey cock.

    We let people ride the trail that worked hard. Until it started raining. Then we closed the trail. Overall we have had tremendous respect. No one rode the trail, until last night.

    This is an all volunteer effort that you were obviously not a part of and you wrecked a bunch of hard work. You delayed the opening of the trail. Dumbass.

    Someone tore **** up last night, literally.

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360479846.038493.jpg

    The best part is that I can tell you suck by your weak lines pressed deep into virgin soil.

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360480036.075708.jpg

    You seriously suck and where you went down on slippery clay, yeah I laughed.

    I'm considering sleeping out there and waiting for you next time.

    The trail is closed! If you love mountain biking and can't respect those bringing you this trail you are kind of a lost cause, but I will keep trying.
    Last edited by Davey Simon; 02-10-2013 at 01:37 AM.

  2. #2
    used to be RipRoar
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    I bet you would love to post the punks face...

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-221223_ts.jpg

  3. #3
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    A game camera is in the works. When I leave for work for 15 days I will have one out there. We will have a hall of shame soon.

  4. #4
    NedwannaB
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    Check out Starve, possible the perp tracked ride and made a segment faceplanting into that berm!
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  5. #5
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    I don't even know how to use Strava. If some figures it out LMK.

  6. #6
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by RipRoar View Post
    I bet you would love to post the punks face...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I'm posting video:


    http://youtu.be/aBqYZlPJeck

  7. #7
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    That berm looks pretty soft at the moment. Fricken people.

  8. #8
    Uncle
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    This sucks, for sure. I haven't been to 'rancho since this project started From a distance, a few of us yesterday were considering a side trip that way to check it out. We've seen video and read lots of great feedback thus far, but we've not been following the progress close enough to know the status. I'm glad we didn't waste a trip. Next time we end up there, can I assume safely that there is/will be signage about its status? I'm happy just rollin' the xc loop, and certainly don't want to piss in anyone's Cheerios on such a laborious project.

    Thanks.
    Great prices - some sweet vintage stuff: http://classifieds.mtbr.com/showprod...product=101010

  9. #9
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    Can't you just put a log in the middle of the berms? Yes it might get removed but it would at least stop a few idiots.
    Romani ite domum

  10. #10
    YOUREGO ISNOT YOURAMIGO
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    There are signs all over the place for jeez sake!!!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-img_6307.jpg  

    Last edited by GoGoGordo; 02-10-2013 at 10:53 PM.
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  11. #11
    YOUREGO ISNOT YOURAMIGO
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by fourarm View Post
    Can't you just put a log in the middle of the berms? Yes it might get removed but it would at least stop a few idiots.
    No not really
    Must be at least 20-30 berms
    Maybe more
    It would take forever every time we worked, to put logs across the berms
    Just stay off till the project is finished.
    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360553294.390759.jpg
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  12. #12
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    Know your pain! Sadly, the dipshits who did that probably think they did no harm - I mean, what harm can a wheel rut do? That is until you try to sort one out on a berm that was soft, but otherwise perfect and is now solidified with scars that change riders lines and cause local erosion and loss of surface integrity.

    Regarding trail closures - we decided to fully log cover a section that was closed for the same reason as this one (looked OK, but had not been opened at all) because temporary closures (crossed logs on the trees and on the ground) had not worked. Every bit was taken off and chucked to the side of the trail leaving a mass of pointy bits as well as the general mess. More recently riders went past signs and under 3 taped closures to poach another trail which had just had a major berm renovation.

    I don't know what you can do to stop this sort of idiot. Cattle prods come to mind, but you can't live on-site to catch them. Sad that cameras are needed.

  13. #13
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    there was a vid on youtube the other day of two bros poaching the trail and ducking under the closed signs, just looked for it and looks like they took it down off youtube. WTF people.

  14. #14
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    We are having the same problem here in Louisiana. Fer's have no respect at all for all the work that goes into maintaining a trail b

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by normarin View Post
    there was a vid on youtube the other day of two bros poaching the trail and ducking under the closed signs, just looked for it and looks like they took it down off youtube. WTF people.
    I also seen a youtube video of some one going past the closure on the flow trail. I was going to embed it here to show, but it's seems it's been removed. I wouldn't be surpirsed if it's already a segment on strava!

  16. #16
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    This is why we can't get a good legal trail open to save our lives. We are our own worst enemy.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    This is why we can't get a good legal trail open to save our lives. We are our own worst enemy.
    Yeah, right. One ****** bag poaches flow under construction, and this is why we can't get legal single track here? Carl, the kind of generalization you just spewed is the real reason we can't get legal ST here.
    Threading lightly and respectfully wherever I want....

  18. #18
    Save Jesus
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    It also hurts the cause to argue that mountain biking doesn't cause much trail damage, and then complain about how just two riders can "ruin" a trail. Could a hiker have also "ruined" this trail by walking on it?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    It also hurts the cause to argue that mountain biking doesn't cause much trail damage, and then complain about how just two riders can "ruin" a trail. Could a hiker have also "ruined" this trail by walking on it?

    some people just don't get it.....not even worth the keystrokes trying to explain it to you....

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by polymathic View Post
    Carl, the kind of generalization you just spewed is the real reason we can't get legal ST here.
    Please explain. And by "we" I wasn't saying Marin as I don't live in Marin, I meant "we" as in mountain bikers. I mean here you have the one interesting legal trail to open in Marin in the last what...10 years? and dbags can't stay off it. It's a metaphor for the whole situation.

  21. #21
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    The Berms need to be hard-packed and bump-free in order for us to carry maximum speed through the turn. That is how it is ruined. Hikers don't need this smooth surface to enjoy a trail.

  22. #22
    YOUREGO ISNOT YOURAMIGO
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    (Quote) That berm looks pretty soft at the moment. Fricken people.


    Yeah of course they look soft, we just made the GD things!!
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  23. #23
    YOUREGO ISNOT YOURAMIGO
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    It also hurts the cause to argue that mountain biking doesn't cause much trail damage, and then complain about how just two riders can "ruin" a trail. Could a hiker have also "ruined" this trail by walking on it?
    What really hurts are your ill timed and uninformed responses.
    You don't get it.
    You make no sense.
    Your a troll I'm pretty sure from reading most of your other responses.
    Why don't you come out to the next workday and introduce yourself , grab a shovel, and then we will show you how a trail gets messed up BEFORE its ready to be ridden.
    We just moved fresh dirt all around for hours and hours and until it SETS up, yeah anyone could mess it up or ruin it.
    Until then stop being devils advocate.
    Its not cute, helpful, or funny.
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  24. #24
    I'm really diggin it!
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Allow me to explain. The trail is brand new in many ways. In its physical form and the design is very new to the area. So the dirt is soft and many have not seen this kind of construction before.

    The poached section was carved out of the hill by tractor three weeks ago by Kevin Smallman. This effort equalled the labor of two dozen men for two days. It took a day of 90k trail machine time to rough the turn in.

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360564120.433856.jpg

    Then a dozen guys dug out the berm enough to add a drain and rake out all of the rocks.

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360564286.145252.jpg

    Here is one of our dedicated volunteers.

    Now we let the turn sit through a rain and come back to finish it. First we start by hand tamping, then add the demo hammer.

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360564422.675505.jpg

    The demo hammer is loud and heavy and I can only operate it for an hour without imploding. Sandor, can run it all day however because he is Chuck Norris and Mr T all wrapped into one. The surface is hard but it looks like this:

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360564687.782317.jpg

    Now an experienced shaper hits it with a shovel for a day.

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360564630.828118.jpg

    Now a dozen volunteers, each giving three days of labor, one 90k machine, a demo hammer, over three weeks have finished the rideable berm.

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360564853.021636.jpg

    Now it is rideable.

    If you are going to poach please stay off the lower section. Even to just have a look. Hit the top if you insist. Please don't go below where the trail parallels B17 ext. it is all soft and a dead end. I need you out of there for 60 days tops. Please respect the volunteers and all of their hard work. Lets show the world how great the Marin MTB community is!

    We will all ride the trail this May. There will be a big party. Come join us and help us finish this great project.

  25. #25
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by fourarm View Post
    Can't you just put a log in the middle of the berms? Yes it might get removed but it would at least stop a few idiots.
    I don't want to hurt anyone...

  26. #26
    used to be RipRoar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    Allow me to explain.
    You sir are a gentleman and a scholar!

  27. #27
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    It also hurts the cause to argue that mountain biking doesn't cause much trail damage, and then complain about how just two riders can "ruin" a trail. Could a hiker have also "ruined" this trail by walking on it?
    Yes the trail is unfinished. It would have hurt the trail if hikers hiked it, Aliens landed a space ship there or a horse rode up it.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    It also hurts the cause to argue that mountain biking doesn't cause much trail damage, and then complain about how just two riders can "ruin" a trail. Could a hiker have also "ruined" this trail by walking on it?
    The man has a point...

  29. #29
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    Following this project and reading these posts brings me back to building BMX trails all throughout my younger years. Thousands of hours of digging, secrets kept from other riders, even close friends, and no matter what trails get ripped up. Some by the city with a tractor, some by newer riders, some by the elements. I've seen chained off trails had an impromptu roller built over the chain so they could be ridden. At the last set of trails we built the first double was so scary nobody rode them, until eventually it was filled in with trash and turned into a tabletop. These were all hidden trails with tight lipped people digging.

    You guys post daily on here and have a facebook for the spot. The trail is very ridable from what I've seen in the pics. What you've done is great, it looks like you've found a lot of helpers online, but at the same time everyone knows about it now, Strava or not, not to mention it's an offshoot of one of the most popular beginner trails in a thousand mile radius. People are going to ride it and tear it up endlessly now, the toothpaste is out of the tube, no going back, very unfortunate but I don't see it happening any other way. Every single person I used to dig with only deals with private property these days, dig in public and deal with the public, there's no avoiding it. Good luck to you guys, with how public you've made the effort I assume you really want to do this for everyone, I hope you can find the balance and keep it going as time goes on.

  30. #30
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    It's pretty obvious most people think that you can just scratch out some trail and it is good to go. They stop riding it when it isn't so nice anymore and never give a thought to the effort making it or the effort required to renovate it, then they go somewhere else. Until you pick up the shovel and go home sore for days, you cannot know what is required to make AM trail, especially if the soreness is due to fixing someone else's damage.

    Great White has some sobering news, but it is not all negative. GW does highlight the community of trailbuilding. While it seems that doing it on the sly offers some shield from public attention, the fact is that communities limited by secrecy and numbers are always going to be at risk. I'm not sure offering poachers part of a trail online is ideal, but I have thought the same thoughts and we try to predict what jerks will do before we make trail visible at all. It doesn't work any better than closing a trail should, sadly. The only thing that does is other riders looking after what you build on your behalf.

    What MTB has lacked for so long is the sense that someone is doing something tangible for you. Something you want to protect, even if it is not built by your hand. That's not just because we are a selfish bunch of clowns hell-bent on destroying the land, but also because the ability of the MTB community to internally pass on respect for trails has been limited by defiant land managers and the general impression that asking nicely doesn't work, year after year. Add to that the march of time on MTB trends toward flow, features and pace, plus a generation of new riders used to taking what they want rather than asking and it no surprise this sort of thing happens.

    You have to look on the bright side - at least it gives the builder an idea of what may happen after a trail opens!!!

    I strongly believe we have the right to access our public land and I have been pretty blunt about it on this forum. Like others reading this I have done illegal trailwork in the past - higher class poaching I guess. Perhaps I got away with it because it was good work, even if done faster and less substantially than now it is legal. Maybe it was that or just plain luck and circumstance that we have been included in our LM's plan. Regardless, now there is more work going on all over the trail system and as it looks and rides better, the word is getting out. Riders tell each other where to avoid due to weather effect. They post it online too. In the US, you seem to be some years ahead in places (and some decades in the past in others), so hopefully have more chance of generating positive MTB community support.

    I believe Tam is "private" land, rather than public access land and that it has something to do with (?) school MTB access and is something of a unique riding destination? You would think respect would be more likely, but who knows how people see their entitlements? The best thing is education I think, rather than shame (leave that to the local riding community). What we lack over here is appropriate signposting. I see your obvious trail closure signs as do the poachers. Maybe you do have a visible trailhead sign listing the local rider code of ethics, but if not, that is the place to set the standard for behaviour. The place where riders are more likely to interact and talk. A good place to start getting the message out.

    Best of luck. It's hard not to take abuse on the chin - it does seem personal as a builder. Oh boy, it does.

  31. #31
    I'm really diggin it!
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan View Post
    The man has a point...
    No he doesn't. You are just looking for an answer you already believe. No point in dealing with you.

    If you walked all over a recently excavated house foundation you would be making a ton of work and a mess of someone's project. Once the foundation is complete it will last decades. Just like the trail we are building.

    Harry this thread is about respect. You don't belong here because you have none. Don't post on this thread again.

  32. #32
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    @harrycallahan. Not really, the trail is still under construction and some sections are not ready for use by anyone or anything! If these people want to ride and session the trail then they need to show up for a work day put some work in, and see if they can ride a section of the trail which is ready for bike use

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    No he doesn't. You are just looking for an answer you already believe. No point in dealing with you.

    If you walked all over a recently excavated house foundation you would be making a ton of work and a mess of someone's project. Once the foundation is complete it will last decades. Just like the trail we are building.

    ...
    I didn't see the guy's post as a troll, more of an ironic comment on how the non-cycling general public would react to this without knowing the specifics. But maybe you've dealt with him before.

    I thought the post you did further up, #24, was super informative, and it shows all the work you guys are doing. It looks like a cool project. No need for the tough guy rhetoric.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan View Post
    I didn't see the guy's post as a troll, more of an ironic comment on how the non-cycling general public would react to this without knowing the specifics. But maybe you've dealt with him before.

    I thought the post you did further up, #24, was super informative, and it shows all the work you guys are doing. It looks like a cool project. No need for the tough guy rhetoric.
    Plus many.

    The order to "not post in this thread again". is totally ridiculous. You don't own this thread because you are building the flow trail. Granted, I don't know a single one of you guys, and there may be something else going on here, but that statement is lame. That said, thank you for your obviously tireless efforts. I am an annual pass holder at Tamarancho but have yet to get out there this year.

  35. #35
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    Please note

    This thread is not a brainstorming session for trail building and usage philosophy. It serves one purpose: to build social pressure against people increasing the workload of the flow trail volunteer force.

    No one is going to police the thread, much like no one is going to police the build site. What is at stake here is presenting as united a front as possible, because social pressure is the only way that has a chance to keep people off the build site.

    The flow trail is going to take Z = X + Y person-hours to complete, where X is the number of hours all the building will take, and Y is the number of hours all the repairs will take. The closer Y is to zero, the less Z is, right? The less Z is, the sooner (all other things equal) we all get to ride the trail.

    If you want to have a conversation about poaching, the tragedy of the commons, multi-use politics, whatever, mtbr.com has got you covered, man! In some other thread, where you will willingly choose to go, rather than muddy this water further. It analgous to the good, willing decisions that the OP is encouraging people to make about whether they should ride closed trail. And we all agree, they shouldn't. Get it?

  36. #36
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    For those of us who are short on time, can we donate $ to help get the trail finished?
    功夫大师喜欢骑着他的自行车在山上。

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuruAtma View Post
    For those of us who are short on time, can we donate $ to help get the trail finished?
    Yes.

    Tamarancho Flow Site

  38. #38
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    Just donated via their site. Can't wait to ride the trail.
    功夫大师喜欢骑着他的自行车在山上。

  39. #39
    YOUREGO ISNOT YOURAMIGO
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    Quote Originally Posted by RipRoar View Post
    You sir are a gentleman and a scholar!
    +1
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuruAtma View Post
    Just donated via their site. Can't wait to ride the trail.
    As did I.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    I don't want to hurt anyone...
    Don't worry Davey, I'm fairly sure others will put the log in place for you

    Yes, I will get back out there and help!

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocop View Post
    Plus many.

    The order to "not post in this thread again". is totally ridiculous. You don't own this thread because you are building the flow trail. Granted, I don't know a single one of you guys, and there may be something else going on here, but that statement is lame. That said, thank you for your obviously tireless efforts. I am an annual pass holder at Tamarancho but have yet to get out there this year.
    Sorry but I'm not getting bogged down into the bikes are bad for trails discussion with other mountain bikers. It should not even escape our minds because it just is not the case. I wont entertain it. At all.

    Also I'm not building the flow trail. We all are. Even the guys that poach it. This is all volunteer effort and ultimately will reflect on the entire mountain bike community. This effort is lead by Jim Jacobson. It wouldn't have happened without him. Even if I were doing this all singlehanded which is just silly, I maybe would have about the first 100 yards of trail finished.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snfoilhat View Post
    This thread is not a brainstorming session for trail building and usage philosophy. It serves one purpose: to build social pressure against people increasing the workload of the flow trail volunteer force.

    No one is going to police the thread, much like no one is going to police the build site. What is at stake here is presenting as united a front as possible, because social pressure is the only way that has a chance to keep people off the build site.

    The flow trail is going to take Z = X + Y person-hours to complete, where X is the number of hours all the building will take, and Y is the number of hours all the repairs will take. The closer Y is to zero, the less Z is, right? The less Z is, the sooner (all other things equal) we all get to ride the trail.

    If you want to have a conversation about poaching, the tragedy of the commons, multi-use politics, whatever, mtbr.com has got you covered, man! In some other thread, where you will willingly choose to go, rather than muddy this water further. It analgous to the good, willing decisions that the OP is encouraging people to make about whether they should ride closed trail. And we all agree, they shouldn't. Get it?
    Well that was a lot more eloquent than I will ever get.

    Also I just wanted to thank you guys for turning the discussion positive and donating to the cause. Really made me feel a lot better.

    I've got 50+ days out there now. So I've got a bit of emotional investment into the project. Forgive my outburst. Thanks for donating money. Jim and Kevin can really use it to help run the tractors. We are planning on a few items like replacing the water tank on the hill to irrigate the trail during the summer.

    And I've got to buy batteries for the game camera....

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post

    Harry this thread is about respect. You don't belong here because you have none. Don't post on this thread again.
    Hahaha wow a tough guy! I didn't realize that you were in charge around here. Great that you are helping build the trail, some of my riding buddies are out there helping you out but give me a break! It seems to me that MTBR is just becoming a b!tch fest for some serious complainers. All trails get poached, yes it sucks but it is something that you are going to have to deal with. Some of the whiners on this site need to turn off their computers and go ride their bikes.

  44. #44
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    Davey Simon, good job on the follow up post. I get the emotional involvement. I've gotten into it over folks riding established trails when it is too wet. Nothing like having to deal with wheel sucking ruts that set up like concrete when they dry. The sport has always put out photos of folks riding in the mud, and some folks will tell you it's just dirt.

    If I may offer a couple suggestions: The closed sign? Maybe add language about using the trail now damages work in progress? I think that might resonate with folks who don't get the "respect" message. And maybe add some more substantial barricades, nothing to hurt anyone, but substantial enough that trying to ride the closed trail is a pain in the butt. Better, I think, to have to spend time setting up and removing barricades than to have to re-do work. Think of it as insurance...

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    Could a hiker have also "ruined" this trail by walking on it?
    Yes. And a horse would tear it up for good.

  46. #46
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan View Post
    Davey Simon, good job on the follow up post. I get the emotional involvement. I've gotten into it over folks riding established trails when it is too wet. Nothing like having to deal with wheel sucking ruts that set up like concrete when they dry. The sport has always put out photos of folks riding in the mud, and some folks will tell you it's just dirt.

    If I may offer a couple suggestions: The closed sign? Maybe add language about using the trail now damages work in progress? I think that might resonate with folks who don't get the "respect" message. And maybe add some more substantial barricades, nothing to hurt anyone, but substantial enough that trying to ride the closed trail is a pain in the butt. Better, I think, to have to spend time setting up and removing barricades than to have to re-do work. Think of it as insurance...
    All of those are in place. Barriers, signs and caution tape.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    All of those are in place. Barriers, signs and caution tape.
    I have a suspicion that the numbnuts can't read.

  48. #48
    Uncle
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    Annual pass holder here. Just tried to donate to the Flow Trail project, but all clicky options at Tamarancho Flow Site come back to their home page. Not much of a tech guy, so any suggestions are helpful.

    Cheers,
    E.
    Great prices - some sweet vintage stuff: http://classifieds.mtbr.com/showprod...product=101010

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    I have a suspicion that the numbnuts can't read.
    Defiance need not = an iliterate. Just say'n.
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    Yes the trail is unfinished. It would have hurt the trail if hikers hiked it, Aliens landed a space ship there or a horse rode up it.
    Darn. That would have been a great quote for my sig line, but the max number of characters is 125, and I am loath to edit it in any way. But good one nonetheless! Also keep up the good work on the trail.

    Carry on everyone.

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