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  1. #1
    I'm really diggin it!
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    You know who you are. You know there is really is nothing I can do to stop you. And you suck the donkey cock.

    We let people ride the trail that worked hard. Until it started raining. Then we closed the trail. Overall we have had tremendous respect. No one rode the trail, until last night.

    This is an all volunteer effort that you were obviously not a part of and you wrecked a bunch of hard work. You delayed the opening of the trail. Dumbass.

    Someone tore **** up last night, literally.

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360479846.038493.jpg

    The best part is that I can tell you suck by your weak lines pressed deep into virgin soil.

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360480036.075708.jpg

    You seriously suck and where you went down on slippery clay, yeah I laughed.

    I'm considering sleeping out there and waiting for you next time.

    The trail is closed! If you love mountain biking and can't respect those bringing you this trail you are kind of a lost cause, but I will keep trying.
    Last edited by Davey Simon; 02-10-2013 at 01:37 AM.

  2. #2
    used to be RipRoar
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    I bet you would love to post the punks face...

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-221223_ts.jpg

  3. #3
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    A game camera is in the works. When I leave for work for 15 days I will have one out there. We will have a hall of shame soon.

  4. #4
    NedwannaB
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    Check out Starve, possible the perp tracked ride and made a segment faceplanting into that berm!
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  5. #5
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    I don't even know how to use Strava. If some figures it out LMK.

  6. #6
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by RipRoar View Post
    I bet you would love to post the punks face...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I'm posting video:


    http://youtu.be/aBqYZlPJeck

  7. #7
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    That berm looks pretty soft at the moment. Fricken people.

  8. #8
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    This sucks, for sure. I haven't been to 'rancho since this project started From a distance, a few of us yesterday were considering a side trip that way to check it out. We've seen video and read lots of great feedback thus far, but we've not been following the progress close enough to know the status. I'm glad we didn't waste a trip. Next time we end up there, can I assume safely that there is/will be signage about its status? I'm happy just rollin' the xc loop, and certainly don't want to piss in anyone's Cheerios on such a laborious project.

    Thanks.
    Every rose has it's thorn.

    enjoy the ear worm

  9. #9
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    Can't you just put a log in the middle of the berms? Yes it might get removed but it would at least stop a few idiots.
    Romani ite domum

  10. #10
    YOUREGO ISNOT YOURAMIGO
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    There are signs all over the place for jeez sake!!!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-img_6307.jpg  

    Last edited by GoGoGordo; 02-10-2013 at 10:53 PM.
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  11. #11
    YOUREGO ISNOT YOURAMIGO
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by fourarm View Post
    Can't you just put a log in the middle of the berms? Yes it might get removed but it would at least stop a few idiots.
    No not really
    Must be at least 20-30 berms
    Maybe more
    It would take forever every time we worked, to put logs across the berms
    Just stay off till the project is finished.
    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360553294.390759.jpg
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  12. #12
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    Know your pain! Sadly, the dipshits who did that probably think they did no harm - I mean, what harm can a wheel rut do? That is until you try to sort one out on a berm that was soft, but otherwise perfect and is now solidified with scars that change riders lines and cause local erosion and loss of surface integrity.

    Regarding trail closures - we decided to fully log cover a section that was closed for the same reason as this one (looked OK, but had not been opened at all) because temporary closures (crossed logs on the trees and on the ground) had not worked. Every bit was taken off and chucked to the side of the trail leaving a mass of pointy bits as well as the general mess. More recently riders went past signs and under 3 taped closures to poach another trail which had just had a major berm renovation.

    I don't know what you can do to stop this sort of idiot. Cattle prods come to mind, but you can't live on-site to catch them. Sad that cameras are needed.

  13. #13
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    there was a vid on youtube the other day of two bros poaching the trail and ducking under the closed signs, just looked for it and looks like they took it down off youtube. WTF people.

  14. #14
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    We are having the same problem here in Louisiana. Fer's have no respect at all for all the work that goes into maintaining a trail b

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by normarin View Post
    there was a vid on youtube the other day of two bros poaching the trail and ducking under the closed signs, just looked for it and looks like they took it down off youtube. WTF people.
    I also seen a youtube video of some one going past the closure on the flow trail. I was going to embed it here to show, but it's seems it's been removed. I wouldn't be surpirsed if it's already a segment on strava!

  16. #16
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    This is why we can't get a good legal trail open to save our lives. We are our own worst enemy.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    This is why we can't get a good legal trail open to save our lives. We are our own worst enemy.
    Yeah, right. One ****** bag poaches flow under construction, and this is why we can't get legal single track here? Carl, the kind of generalization you just spewed is the real reason we can't get legal ST here.
    Threading lightly and respectfully wherever I want....

  18. #18
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    It also hurts the cause to argue that mountain biking doesn't cause much trail damage, and then complain about how just two riders can "ruin" a trail. Could a hiker have also "ruined" this trail by walking on it?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    It also hurts the cause to argue that mountain biking doesn't cause much trail damage, and then complain about how just two riders can "ruin" a trail. Could a hiker have also "ruined" this trail by walking on it?

    some people just don't get it.....not even worth the keystrokes trying to explain it to you....

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by polymathic View Post
    Carl, the kind of generalization you just spewed is the real reason we can't get legal ST here.
    Please explain. And by "we" I wasn't saying Marin as I don't live in Marin, I meant "we" as in mountain bikers. I mean here you have the one interesting legal trail to open in Marin in the last what...10 years? and dbags can't stay off it. It's a metaphor for the whole situation.

  21. #21
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    The Berms need to be hard-packed and bump-free in order for us to carry maximum speed through the turn. That is how it is ruined. Hikers don't need this smooth surface to enjoy a trail.

  22. #22
    YOUREGO ISNOT YOURAMIGO
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    (Quote) That berm looks pretty soft at the moment. Fricken people.


    Yeah of course they look soft, we just made the GD things!!
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  23. #23
    YOUREGO ISNOT YOURAMIGO
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    It also hurts the cause to argue that mountain biking doesn't cause much trail damage, and then complain about how just two riders can "ruin" a trail. Could a hiker have also "ruined" this trail by walking on it?
    What really hurts are your ill timed and uninformed responses.
    You don't get it.
    You make no sense.
    Your a troll I'm pretty sure from reading most of your other responses.
    Why don't you come out to the next workday and introduce yourself , grab a shovel, and then we will show you how a trail gets messed up BEFORE its ready to be ridden.
    We just moved fresh dirt all around for hours and hours and until it SETS up, yeah anyone could mess it up or ruin it.
    Until then stop being devils advocate.
    Its not cute, helpful, or funny.
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  24. #24
    I'm really diggin it!
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Allow me to explain. The trail is brand new in many ways. In its physical form and the design is very new to the area. So the dirt is soft and many have not seen this kind of construction before.

    The poached section was carved out of the hill by tractor three weeks ago by Kevin Smallman. This effort equalled the labor of two dozen men for two days. It took a day of 90k trail machine time to rough the turn in.

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360564120.433856.jpg

    Then a dozen guys dug out the berm enough to add a drain and rake out all of the rocks.

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360564286.145252.jpg

    Here is one of our dedicated volunteers.

    Now we let the turn sit through a rain and come back to finish it. First we start by hand tamping, then add the demo hammer.

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360564422.675505.jpg

    The demo hammer is loud and heavy and I can only operate it for an hour without imploding. Sandor, can run it all day however because he is Chuck Norris and Mr T all wrapped into one. The surface is hard but it looks like this:

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360564687.782317.jpg

    Now an experienced shaper hits it with a shovel for a day.

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360564630.828118.jpg

    Now a dozen volunteers, each giving three days of labor, one 90k machine, a demo hammer, over three weeks have finished the rideable berm.

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360564853.021636.jpg

    Now it is rideable.

    If you are going to poach please stay off the lower section. Even to just have a look. Hit the top if you insist. Please don't go below where the trail parallels B17 ext. it is all soft and a dead end. I need you out of there for 60 days tops. Please respect the volunteers and all of their hard work. Lets show the world how great the Marin MTB community is!

    We will all ride the trail this May. There will be a big party. Come join us and help us finish this great project.

  25. #25
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by fourarm View Post
    Can't you just put a log in the middle of the berms? Yes it might get removed but it would at least stop a few idiots.
    I don't want to hurt anyone...

  26. #26
    used to be RipRoar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    Allow me to explain.
    You sir are a gentleman and a scholar!

  27. #27
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    It also hurts the cause to argue that mountain biking doesn't cause much trail damage, and then complain about how just two riders can "ruin" a trail. Could a hiker have also "ruined" this trail by walking on it?
    Yes the trail is unfinished. It would have hurt the trail if hikers hiked it, Aliens landed a space ship there or a horse rode up it.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    It also hurts the cause to argue that mountain biking doesn't cause much trail damage, and then complain about how just two riders can "ruin" a trail. Could a hiker have also "ruined" this trail by walking on it?
    The man has a point...

  29. #29
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    Following this project and reading these posts brings me back to building BMX trails all throughout my younger years. Thousands of hours of digging, secrets kept from other riders, even close friends, and no matter what trails get ripped up. Some by the city with a tractor, some by newer riders, some by the elements. I've seen chained off trails had an impromptu roller built over the chain so they could be ridden. At the last set of trails we built the first double was so scary nobody rode them, until eventually it was filled in with trash and turned into a tabletop. These were all hidden trails with tight lipped people digging.

    You guys post daily on here and have a facebook for the spot. The trail is very ridable from what I've seen in the pics. What you've done is great, it looks like you've found a lot of helpers online, but at the same time everyone knows about it now, Strava or not, not to mention it's an offshoot of one of the most popular beginner trails in a thousand mile radius. People are going to ride it and tear it up endlessly now, the toothpaste is out of the tube, no going back, very unfortunate but I don't see it happening any other way. Every single person I used to dig with only deals with private property these days, dig in public and deal with the public, there's no avoiding it. Good luck to you guys, with how public you've made the effort I assume you really want to do this for everyone, I hope you can find the balance and keep it going as time goes on.

  30. #30
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    It's pretty obvious most people think that you can just scratch out some trail and it is good to go. They stop riding it when it isn't so nice anymore and never give a thought to the effort making it or the effort required to renovate it, then they go somewhere else. Until you pick up the shovel and go home sore for days, you cannot know what is required to make AM trail, especially if the soreness is due to fixing someone else's damage.

    Great White has some sobering news, but it is not all negative. GW does highlight the community of trailbuilding. While it seems that doing it on the sly offers some shield from public attention, the fact is that communities limited by secrecy and numbers are always going to be at risk. I'm not sure offering poachers part of a trail online is ideal, but I have thought the same thoughts and we try to predict what jerks will do before we make trail visible at all. It doesn't work any better than closing a trail should, sadly. The only thing that does is other riders looking after what you build on your behalf.

    What MTB has lacked for so long is the sense that someone is doing something tangible for you. Something you want to protect, even if it is not built by your hand. That's not just because we are a selfish bunch of clowns hell-bent on destroying the land, but also because the ability of the MTB community to internally pass on respect for trails has been limited by defiant land managers and the general impression that asking nicely doesn't work, year after year. Add to that the march of time on MTB trends toward flow, features and pace, plus a generation of new riders used to taking what they want rather than asking and it no surprise this sort of thing happens.

    You have to look on the bright side - at least it gives the builder an idea of what may happen after a trail opens!!!

    I strongly believe we have the right to access our public land and I have been pretty blunt about it on this forum. Like others reading this I have done illegal trailwork in the past - higher class poaching I guess. Perhaps I got away with it because it was good work, even if done faster and less substantially than now it is legal. Maybe it was that or just plain luck and circumstance that we have been included in our LM's plan. Regardless, now there is more work going on all over the trail system and as it looks and rides better, the word is getting out. Riders tell each other where to avoid due to weather effect. They post it online too. In the US, you seem to be some years ahead in places (and some decades in the past in others), so hopefully have more chance of generating positive MTB community support.

    I believe Tam is "private" land, rather than public access land and that it has something to do with (?) school MTB access and is something of a unique riding destination? You would think respect would be more likely, but who knows how people see their entitlements? The best thing is education I think, rather than shame (leave that to the local riding community). What we lack over here is appropriate signposting. I see your obvious trail closure signs as do the poachers. Maybe you do have a visible trailhead sign listing the local rider code of ethics, but if not, that is the place to set the standard for behaviour. The place where riders are more likely to interact and talk. A good place to start getting the message out.

    Best of luck. It's hard not to take abuse on the chin - it does seem personal as a builder. Oh boy, it does.

  31. #31
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan View Post
    The man has a point...
    No he doesn't. You are just looking for an answer you already believe. No point in dealing with you.

    If you walked all over a recently excavated house foundation you would be making a ton of work and a mess of someone's project. Once the foundation is complete it will last decades. Just like the trail we are building.

    Harry this thread is about respect. You don't belong here because you have none. Don't post on this thread again.

  32. #32
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    @harrycallahan. Not really, the trail is still under construction and some sections are not ready for use by anyone or anything! If these people want to ride and session the trail then they need to show up for a work day put some work in, and see if they can ride a section of the trail which is ready for bike use

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    No he doesn't. You are just looking for an answer you already believe. No point in dealing with you.

    If you walked all over a recently excavated house foundation you would be making a ton of work and a mess of someone's project. Once the foundation is complete it will last decades. Just like the trail we are building.

    ...
    I didn't see the guy's post as a troll, more of an ironic comment on how the non-cycling general public would react to this without knowing the specifics. But maybe you've dealt with him before.

    I thought the post you did further up, #24, was super informative, and it shows all the work you guys are doing. It looks like a cool project. No need for the tough guy rhetoric.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan View Post
    I didn't see the guy's post as a troll, more of an ironic comment on how the non-cycling general public would react to this without knowing the specifics. But maybe you've dealt with him before.

    I thought the post you did further up, #24, was super informative, and it shows all the work you guys are doing. It looks like a cool project. No need for the tough guy rhetoric.
    Plus many.

    The order to "not post in this thread again". is totally ridiculous. You don't own this thread because you are building the flow trail. Granted, I don't know a single one of you guys, and there may be something else going on here, but that statement is lame. That said, thank you for your obviously tireless efforts. I am an annual pass holder at Tamarancho but have yet to get out there this year.

  35. #35
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    Please note

    This thread is not a brainstorming session for trail building and usage philosophy. It serves one purpose: to build social pressure against people increasing the workload of the flow trail volunteer force.

    No one is going to police the thread, much like no one is going to police the build site. What is at stake here is presenting as united a front as possible, because social pressure is the only way that has a chance to keep people off the build site.

    The flow trail is going to take Z = X + Y person-hours to complete, where X is the number of hours all the building will take, and Y is the number of hours all the repairs will take. The closer Y is to zero, the less Z is, right? The less Z is, the sooner (all other things equal) we all get to ride the trail.

    If you want to have a conversation about poaching, the tragedy of the commons, multi-use politics, whatever, mtbr.com has got you covered, man! In some other thread, where you will willingly choose to go, rather than muddy this water further. It analgous to the good, willing decisions that the OP is encouraging people to make about whether they should ride closed trail. And we all agree, they shouldn't. Get it?

  36. #36
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    For those of us who are short on time, can we donate $ to help get the trail finished?
    功夫大师喜欢骑着他的自行车在山上。

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuruAtma View Post
    For those of us who are short on time, can we donate $ to help get the trail finished?
    Yes.

    Tamarancho Flow Site

  38. #38
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    Just donated via their site. Can't wait to ride the trail.
    功夫大师喜欢骑着他的自行车在山上。

  39. #39
    YOUREGO ISNOT YOURAMIGO
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    Quote Originally Posted by RipRoar View Post
    You sir are a gentleman and a scholar!
    +1
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuruAtma View Post
    Just donated via their site. Can't wait to ride the trail.
    As did I.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    I don't want to hurt anyone...
    Don't worry Davey, I'm fairly sure others will put the log in place for you

    Yes, I will get back out there and help!

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocop View Post
    Plus many.

    The order to "not post in this thread again". is totally ridiculous. You don't own this thread because you are building the flow trail. Granted, I don't know a single one of you guys, and there may be something else going on here, but that statement is lame. That said, thank you for your obviously tireless efforts. I am an annual pass holder at Tamarancho but have yet to get out there this year.
    Sorry but I'm not getting bogged down into the bikes are bad for trails discussion with other mountain bikers. It should not even escape our minds because it just is not the case. I wont entertain it. At all.

    Also I'm not building the flow trail. We all are. Even the guys that poach it. This is all volunteer effort and ultimately will reflect on the entire mountain bike community. This effort is lead by Jim Jacobson. It wouldn't have happened without him. Even if I were doing this all singlehanded which is just silly, I maybe would have about the first 100 yards of trail finished.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snfoilhat View Post
    This thread is not a brainstorming session for trail building and usage philosophy. It serves one purpose: to build social pressure against people increasing the workload of the flow trail volunteer force.

    No one is going to police the thread, much like no one is going to police the build site. What is at stake here is presenting as united a front as possible, because social pressure is the only way that has a chance to keep people off the build site.

    The flow trail is going to take Z = X + Y person-hours to complete, where X is the number of hours all the building will take, and Y is the number of hours all the repairs will take. The closer Y is to zero, the less Z is, right? The less Z is, the sooner (all other things equal) we all get to ride the trail.

    If you want to have a conversation about poaching, the tragedy of the commons, multi-use politics, whatever, mtbr.com has got you covered, man! In some other thread, where you will willingly choose to go, rather than muddy this water further. It analgous to the good, willing decisions that the OP is encouraging people to make about whether they should ride closed trail. And we all agree, they shouldn't. Get it?
    Well that was a lot more eloquent than I will ever get.

    Also I just wanted to thank you guys for turning the discussion positive and donating to the cause. Really made me feel a lot better.

    I've got 50+ days out there now. So I've got a bit of emotional investment into the project. Forgive my outburst. Thanks for donating money. Jim and Kevin can really use it to help run the tractors. We are planning on a few items like replacing the water tank on the hill to irrigate the trail during the summer.

    And I've got to buy batteries for the game camera....

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post

    Harry this thread is about respect. You don't belong here because you have none. Don't post on this thread again.
    Hahaha wow a tough guy! I didn't realize that you were in charge around here. Great that you are helping build the trail, some of my riding buddies are out there helping you out but give me a break! It seems to me that MTBR is just becoming a b!tch fest for some serious complainers. All trails get poached, yes it sucks but it is something that you are going to have to deal with. Some of the whiners on this site need to turn off their computers and go ride their bikes.

  44. #44
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    Davey Simon, good job on the follow up post. I get the emotional involvement. I've gotten into it over folks riding established trails when it is too wet. Nothing like having to deal with wheel sucking ruts that set up like concrete when they dry. The sport has always put out photos of folks riding in the mud, and some folks will tell you it's just dirt.

    If I may offer a couple suggestions: The closed sign? Maybe add language about using the trail now damages work in progress? I think that might resonate with folks who don't get the "respect" message. And maybe add some more substantial barricades, nothing to hurt anyone, but substantial enough that trying to ride the closed trail is a pain in the butt. Better, I think, to have to spend time setting up and removing barricades than to have to re-do work. Think of it as insurance...

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    Could a hiker have also "ruined" this trail by walking on it?
    Yes. And a horse would tear it up for good.

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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan View Post
    Davey Simon, good job on the follow up post. I get the emotional involvement. I've gotten into it over folks riding established trails when it is too wet. Nothing like having to deal with wheel sucking ruts that set up like concrete when they dry. The sport has always put out photos of folks riding in the mud, and some folks will tell you it's just dirt.

    If I may offer a couple suggestions: The closed sign? Maybe add language about using the trail now damages work in progress? I think that might resonate with folks who don't get the "respect" message. And maybe add some more substantial barricades, nothing to hurt anyone, but substantial enough that trying to ride the closed trail is a pain in the butt. Better, I think, to have to spend time setting up and removing barricades than to have to re-do work. Think of it as insurance...
    All of those are in place. Barriers, signs and caution tape.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    All of those are in place. Barriers, signs and caution tape.
    I have a suspicion that the numbnuts can't read.

  48. #48
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    Annual pass holder here. Just tried to donate to the Flow Trail project, but all clicky options at Tamarancho Flow Site come back to their home page. Not much of a tech guy, so any suggestions are helpful.

    Cheers,
    E.
    Every rose has it's thorn.

    enjoy the ear worm

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    I have a suspicion that the numbnuts can't read.
    Defiance need not = an iliterate. Just say'n.
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    Yes the trail is unfinished. It would have hurt the trail if hikers hiked it, Aliens landed a space ship there or a horse rode up it.
    Darn. That would have been a great quote for my sig line, but the max number of characters is 125, and I am loath to edit it in any way. But good one nonetheless! Also keep up the good work on the trail.

    Carry on everyone.

  51. #51
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    The website IS a little unusual. Click "Donate Some Cash." Then, a new link appears in the upper left that says, "Flow some money here." Under that...there is an itty bitty "Click here to Donate" link that takes you to PayPal!

  52. #52
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    Thanks a lot. Donation sent!

  53. #53
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    A couple of thoughts...

    The Flow trail is a wonderful piece of work. The effect of the flow trail has reached the BTCEB work at Bishop's Walk at Joaquin Miller. Both efforts have enjoyed a bounty of support from the mtb community.

    MTBR is the major cultural organ for mountain biking. Period. It functions to shape a culture which is constantly being defined and, simultaneously, evolving. However, in order to manage this we must admit who we are before we can accommodate certain goals.

    Unauthorized trails are defined by a group who appears to be in a position of control or responsibility. Trying to limit a mountain biker is right in their wheelhouse; the sport is about overcoming limitations. Some folks use suspension, some a 29-inch wheel, some use skills. Philosophically mtb'ers often use the confrontation of "the man" who drew the boundaries which exclude them. Davey; no matter how selfless or what the reasons for your (and all those folks who are doing this) work, you are now "the man." Welcome to the world. Stunning. I know. I know. People try and tell you stuff like this when you are young and it doesn't sink in. Yet, here we are. As you age it doesn't get any better, your context simply gets broader and your timeline elongates.

    In an earlier post it was suggested "the march of time on MTB trends toward flow, features and pace, plus a generation of new riders used to taking what they want rather than asking and it no surprise this sort of thing happens. " I have to disagree. This is a behavior which started right after we were tossed off of trails in 1985. A trail is ridden because it is there in spite of any self-percieved noble motives today or 28 years ago, by old grey-haired board members or bro's with hoes. It is what mountain bikers can, have in the past, and will, do.

    What we do here is a great step to focus our community and put pressure on people to "behave." Mountain bikers bridal at conforming to someone else's definition of how one should behave. Have we not learned this yet? It is one of the reasons that advocacy is so awkward. No matter; we need to continue to move forward.

    You have the unflagging support of the BTCEB with more to come. FWIW try to use each confrontation, each stupid post, as an opportunity to clarify, elaborate, and enrich.
    I don't rattle.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    In an earlier post it was suggested "the march of time on MTB trends toward flow, features and pace, plus a generation of new riders used to taking what they want rather than asking and it no surprise this sort of thing happens. " I have to disagree. This is a behavior which started right after we were tossed off of trails in 1985. A trail is ridden because it is there
    BM - seeing as we are saying the same thing, I'm not sure where you disagree with what I posted? Maybe 1985 is not a year of note in my area, but people getting used to riding what they want as there was no authorised alternative is exactly what I was saying. Building the MTB community and developing trail ethics should start in places like MTBR, but can that address the huge difference between riding some dodgy trail you saw off the side of a road and riding very clearly closed trail in malice?

    Perhaps I am over-supportive of the OP's complaints after years of hand-building and renovating trail. When you cope with no machinery, no building materials delivered, no funding and nothing taken in or out, it leaves you in a precarious position where your personal effort takes on more meaning than perhaps it should.

    If every rider donated 4 hours of trailcare time per half year, then builders wouldn't take things so delicately - there would be no reason to complain as everything would be fixed as it went bad from use. Fact is it is usually a volunteer crew of almost no-one expected to just keep going back to the same places to repair them, when more important works should be done somewhere else.

    If we want to help develop that community spirit, then we should be encouraging, if not demanding our MTB bros take up the tools at times and see just how personal it can feel to the dude building for them instead of enjoying a day of riding with their mates.

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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    A couple of thoughts...

    ....

    You have the unflagging support of the BTCEB with more to come. FWIW try to use each confrontation, each stupid post, as an opportunity to clarify, elaborate, and enrich.
    Thanks that means a lot. I kind of blew my top earlier. It was stupid. I should have taken the high road and just stayed informative. I got a little bent seeing the marks in the fresh soft soil mostly because The Hive guys and a bunch of other volunteers took a workday weekday off to clean that section up. One of them just turned up off the bike and asked to help. We had 12 guys on a Wednesday and i was so stoked. When i came back and saw the poachers tire marks I felt like that spirit had been pooped on. Also the bikes are bad for dirt argument is one that I will never come to terms with. It is just so wrong and I really feel it is becoming a life's work to show the world that.

    I have tried my best to be a leader and I've done an OK job but I need to be reminded to stray from negativity. You guys did a good job so thanks. The best way to attract volunteers is to be the stoked positive guy. I am only human and I humbly apologize.

    I have tried to be informative and show how much effort went into one berm. The berm in that series of photos from post 24 got about 50 to 80 hours of labor. Im glad some of you liked that post. We just added the start of 6 more berms for a "ninja cougar (ish)" experience at the bottom of the trail and we are going to need a lot of help removing rocks, hand tamping, running the demo hammer and finally hand smoothing the whole mess down. We really do need help and a little rain. Just a couple more months and you won't have to travel to Sun Valley, Bend or Whistler to ride a great flow trail.

    We really all are doing this together. Overall I have been blown away by guys like Gordo and Henry who have volunteered on multiple days. It really has been an overwhelmingly positive experience. Thanks for helping me keep it positive. I promise I will do a better job.

  56. #56
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    Less of this---

    More of this---

    Banned for showing Boobies.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridnparadise View Post
    BM - seeing as we are saying the same thing, I'm not sure where you disagree with what I posted?
    My point was that this behavior was not new; I don't see the newer generation's attitudes of mtb-ers as a function of entitlement. On the contrary, the hundreds and hundreds of young riders we have developed in the NorCal era are much better ambassadors of the sport than most of our veterans. These teens are required to put time into the mtb community and have been a big part of working the Flow trail.

    Had we been "required" to do this over the last 28 years the sense of being a part of advocacy and trail work would be very different. The best we can do is appeal to some sense of pitching in; we all know how well that works.

    I neglected to support your comment "That's not just because we are a selfish bunch of clowns hell-bent on destroying the land, but also because the ability of the MTB community to internally pass on respect for trails has been limited by defiant land managers and the general impression that asking nicely doesn't work, year after year,"
    which preceded thoughts on an attitude on entitlements.

    I think it a fine insight and regret that had not said so earlier. I am glad to hear that thinking. It is remarkably similar to thoughts expressed by a raving anti who suggested that such transgression foments a heroic stature to users of unauthorized trails. While I don't entirely agree with the negativity of that particular sentiment, there idea of being relegated to furtive measures, that our challenges have left us desperate for good riding venues, rings true. MTB is about clearing obstacles. So, many just ride where they want. When the trail is State, Watershed, EBRPD (the Man) it can be seen as understandable. When the very same behavior is expressed on one of our labors of love...all of a sudden we are up on our hind legs.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 02-13-2013 at 01:56 PM.
    I don't rattle.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    I should have taken the high road and just stayed informative.
    Well, the thread has been helpful for spreading the news. I spoke with a few folks that didn't know the state of the flow trail and were considering "checking it out". After I explained why that was a bad idea they completely understood.

    So there is good coming from this thread.
    My Cycling Videos: Vimeo | YouTube | My Website

  59. #59
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    i sent some money, i look forward to trying it out after completion it looks like tons of fun

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanskellner View Post
    Well, the thread has been helpful for spreading the news. I spoke with a few folks that didn't know the state of the flow trail and were considering "checking it out". After I explained why that was a bad idea they completely understood.

    So there is good coming from this thread.
    This is the value of spirited discussions. It presents an opportunity to take in many considerations and help us all frame our ideas. You took the next ambassadorial step, to share this information in a comprehensive fashion in real time, in terms you could support to folks who needed to hear it.

    Thank you for doing that.
    I don't rattle.

  61. #61
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    best video i have seen yet of your trail. but it isnt gonna help keep anyone away until the gates open:
    t fLow - YouTube
    I bet you'd do the same if they was you!

  62. #62
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Thank you so much to everyone who donated money. I really can't thank you guys enough. You are not only making this trail a reality but showing that future endeavors will be supported and I hope to start a new project or two soon.

    The video was taken on the top section which is mostly complete. Getting some hype out there has brought in volunteers and some much needed cash. I wish i had been told about the video so I wouldn't have ranted on MTBR about poachers. The videos author is a close friend and a trail designer. He has donated a lot of time to the project and has intimate knowledge of the trail so he isn't hurting progress with a ride.

    The bottom section is super soft and fragile. If the trail must be poached and you can't wait until may just start at the top and exit @ B17 extension. Although recent tracks in the soft parts made some of the other builders upset and they put up a lot of caution tape. So when you are done please please put the tape back in place. Ideally just wait until May. Not long now.

  63. #63
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    Never been before but this thread, with all of the work and efforts described, inspired me to donate. It also made me aware of the website (bookmarked) and FaceBook group (joined) so that I can keep track of the progress and future trail work days to donate some muscle. Looking forward to all of the progress and the ride.

    I'd be willing to donate more but was unsure if there is a clear separation between donating (like I did through the tamoflow.org website and PayPal) and buying a 1 year individual pass through the "Friends of Tamarancho" site. If I buy a 1 year pass (even though I might only make it once or twice this year) as effective as directly donating through the tamaflow.org site?

  64. #64
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    Nice! Can't wait for it to open!
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  65. #65
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by zicked View Post
    Never been before but this thread, with all of the work and efforts described, inspired me to donate. It also made me aware of the website (bookmarked) and FaceBook group (joined) so that I can keep track of the progress and future trail work days to donate some muscle. Looking forward to all of the progress and the ride.

    I'd be willing to donate more but was unsure if there is a clear separation between donating (like I did through the tamoflow.org website and PayPal) and buying a 1 year individual pass through the "Friends of Tamarancho" site. If I buy a 1 year pass (even though I might only make it once or twice this year) as effective as directly donating through the tamaflow.org site?
    First of all thank you! Everyone should have a pass to access the T camp property. You are supporting the existing trail network and fostering new efforts as well. A big thank you to the original trail workers who donated, time and money to make the all volunteer Tamarancho loop. So please do start with that. The money goes to the entire camp operation including allowing legal single track for MTB. A very big crucial deal for the Bay Area.

    Donating to the www.tamoflow.org web page sends funds to Jim Jacobson. The money is used to fund the current flow trail effort. Jim is a professional trail builder. He is donating his time and his 80k Sweco machine plus chainsaw work etc.

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360863688.187605.jpg

    Without Jim's approval and vision for the flow trail this whole effort would not have happened. The money will be spent on a water tank so we can water the berms during the summer. Also some will go to Kevin Smallman and his 90k trail machine.

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360863653.154507.jpg

    Also we are spending some cash on restoration. It is a preemptive effort and one that will make the trail a showpiece. Something we can cite as an example when we ask to do it again. The jute netting is 100 bucks a roll.

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360863812.476313.jpg

    However it is super worth it to show land managers that the MTB community is serious about stewardship. That we will pay to do the right thing. It will show the world that giving MTB access will be a benefit to the park systems and private land. Got an erosion problem? Oh hey check it out we will build a zero cost MTB trail and fix the erosion. Outlaw trail building? Give us one dedicated MTB trail that has features and the outlaws will become stewards.

    You guys are making that happen. Can't thank you all enough.

  66. #66
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    Donated, because I saw the video.

    Thanks.

  67. #67
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    First of all thank you! Everyone should have a pass to access the T camp property. You are supporting the existing trail network and fostering new efforts as well. A big thank you to the original trail workers who donated, time and money to make the all volunteer Tamarancho loop. So please do start with that. The money goes to the entire camp operation including allowing legal single track for MTB. A very big crucial deal for the Bay Area.

    Donating to the www.tamoflow.org web page sends funds to Jim Jacobson. The money is used to fund the current flow trail effort. Jim is a professional trail builder. He is donating his time and his 80k Sweco machine plus chainsaw work etc.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Without Jim's approval and vision for the flow trail this whole effort would not have happened. The money will be spent on a water tank so we can water the berms during the summer. Also some will go to Kevin Smallman and his 90k trail machine.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Also we are spending some cash on restoration. It is a preemptive effort and one that will make the trail a showpiece. Something we can cite as an example when we ask to do it again. The jute netting is 100 bucks a roll.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    However it is super worth it to show land managers that the MTB community is serious about stewardship. That we will pay to do the right thing. It will show the world that giving MTB access will be a benefit to the park systems and private land. Got an erosion problem? Oh hey check it out we will build a zero cost MTB trail and fix the erosion. Outlaw trail building? Give us one dedicated MTB trail that has features and the outlaws will become stewards.

    You guys are making that happen. Can't thank you all enough.
    Preacher Dave spreading the good word.
    All hail Jim Jacobsen.
    He's done more for your singletrack fix in Marin than ANYONE!
    If your ever at the bar with him, he NEVER,EVER,EVER,pays.
    You here me??
    Please everyone, if you've ever been ANYWHERE else to ride,outside the bay area,
    Like Nor cal, Oregon, Nevada, BC, Etc., then please support this trail.
    It will change the perception of what positive people can do.
    I cant say it enough.
    Get up there and check it out,it is,and will be, amazing.
    The biggest reason I'm so ra-ra about this trail is this, No BS, No long term bureaucracy, THANK YOU JIM!,
    Unreal leaders, unreal volunteers, and amazing results!
    This baby is gonna be an arm burner, 2-3 runs and your toast.
    But smiling toast.
    This hopefully is the beginning of the end of the reign of selfishness sowed upon us.
    Please donate.
    Please volunteer.
    Please stop on your ride and give encouragement to the trail gnomes.
    If no ones there, don't ride it till its done or you've put in some shovel time.
    Bring beer.
    Did i miss anything Davey?
    Carry on.
    G
    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1360902571.968480.jpg
    Banned for showing Boobies.

  68. #68
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by GoGoGordo View Post
    Preacher Dave spreading the good word.
    All hail Jim Jacobsen.
    He's done more for your singletrack fix in Marin than ANYONE!
    If your ever at the bar with him, he NEVER,EVER,EVER,pays.
    You here me??
    Please everyone, if you've ever been ANYWHERE else to ride,outside the bay area,
    Like Nor cal, Oregon, Nevada, BC, Etc., then please support this trail.
    It will change the perception of what positive people can do.
    I cant say it enough.
    Get up there and check it out,it is,and will be, amazing.
    The biggest reason I'm so ra-ra about this trail is this, No BS, No long term bureaucracy, THANK YOU JIM!,
    Unreal leaders, unreal volunteers, and amazing results!
    This baby is gonna be an arm burner, 2-3 runs and your toast.
    But smiling toast.
    This hopefully is the beginning of the end of the reign of selfishness sowed upon us.
    Please donate.
    Please volunteer.
    Please stop on your ride and give encouragement to the trail gnomes.
    If no ones there, don't ride it till its done or you've put in some shovel time.
    Bring beer.
    Did i miss anything Davey?
    Carry on.
    G
    Click image for larger version. 

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    No you didn't miss a thing Gordo. Just got in touch with Jim. Work days this Saturday, Sunday and Monday. 10am start.

  69. #69
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    Davey,

    The time is probably not here yet but looking forward toward completion, do you guys need any signs made? I can do durable Plyboo signs cut to any size with really clean CNC lettering for any areas needing signage. The inset cnc lettering can be highlighted with paint and the sign itself can be oiled for even more durability and good looks. Also, are there any trail practical items, such as water tank enclosures or bulletin board kiosk. I can build it and shingle the walls and roof of it. This type of work is what I do for a living and it will last and go the distance. Let me know...

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie_G View Post
    Davey,

    The time is probably not here yet but looking forward toward completion, do you guys need any signs made? I can do durable Plyboo signs cut to any size with really clean CNC lettering for any areas needing signage. The inset cnc lettering can be highlighted with paint and the sign itself can be oiled for even more durability and good looks. Also, are there any trail practical items, such as water tank enclosures or bulletin board kiosk. I can build it and shingle the walls and roof of it. This type of work is what I do for a living and it will last and go the distance. Let me know...
    I will be in touch. Thank you for your generous offer!

  71. #71
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    The trail looks incredible! Can't wait till May (but I will)! After seeing all the expense and hard work involved my conscience got to me and I happily just donated some money on the Flow trail site. Out of town for a week but will put in some sweat equity when I get back as well. I have done some trail work when I lived on the Central Coast and was amazed that the CCCMB was able to get 100+ volunteers out at Montana De Oro on a Superbowl Sunday morning to do trail work. Bikers, Equestrians, Hikers, and college students. It was a lot of fun. I know there has been a lot of work done in Marin over the years to keep and try to increase access and I hope this will add to the momentum to show MTBers are willing to do what it takes for more riding in Marin.

  72. #72
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by timetraveler View Post
    The trail looks incredible! Can't wait till May (but I will)! After seeing all the expense and hard work involved my conscience got to me and I happily just donated some money on the Flow trail site. Out of town for a week but will put in some sweat equity when I get back as well. I have done some trail work when I lived on the Central Coast and was amazed that the CCCMB was able to get 100+ volunteers out at Montana De Oro on a Superbowl Sunday morning to do trail work. Bikers, Equestrians, Hikers, and college students. It was a lot of fun. I know there has been a lot of work done in Marin over the years to keep and try to increase access and I hope this will add to the momentum to show MTBers are willing to do what it takes for more riding in Marin.
    I hope so too bro. Thanks for showing the love. Pretty cool you did that for a spot so far away.

    Hope to ride out your way one day and surf hazards too.

  73. #73
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    donation sent

  74. #74
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    Donation sent..........and, dude the name calling and bitterness doesn't help your cause. Poaching sucks, but like Mike said, use it as an opportunity, not a stump for an argument. The trail looks far from ruined, and in 5 years nobody will care that some folks put some tracks in before they should have...........can't wait to ride this in the summer!! Thanks!
    Master of Nothing, but dammit if I don't try..............

  75. #75
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by digthemlows View Post
    Donation sent..........and, dude the name calling and bitterness doesn't help your cause. Poaching sucks, but like Mike said, use it as an opportunity, not a stump for an argument. The trail looks far from ruined, and in 5 years nobody will care that some folks put some tracks in before they should have...........can't wait to ride this in the summer!! Thanks!
    First of all thanks for donating!

    You are correct and I'm super sorry. I was steamed that volunteer hours, which are very valuable were wasted. The big picture of course was that I was just being lame and the MTBR community set me straight. I got too emotionally involved after not riding for 3 months and over 50 days at the camp. Not cool

    Honestly if I bummed anyone out beers on me at Iron Springs.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCallahan View Post
    I didn't see the guy's post as a troll, more of an ironic comment on how the non-cycling general public would react to this without knowing the specifics.
    It was a statement of perceived irony, followed by a normal question.

  77. #77
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    You have nothing to apologize for at all. These abusers were ass hats who's behavior make as much sense as vandals. Your frustration was understandable. As far as I am concerned you can blow off steam here as much as you like. Who has a better right?

    As to exactly what does or does not help your cause, as a long time advocate myself, I don't believe that anyone has cornered the market on that. In the end the Bicycle Trails Council of Marin had to fold up its tent and disband in the home of mountain biking, and they were a great bunch of guys.

    It is hard to help people and the payoff is illusive. Leadership is even more weird; folks with you are usually a few steps behind while your eye is on the goal...and you're digging, too. This is why I try to maintain contact with many other leaders; they understand in away that the rest of even the best crew does not. With luck, the crew has faith in you.

    We're all in this together.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-eargulo204352842.jpg  

    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 02-15-2013 at 04:41 PM.
    I don't rattle.

  78. #78
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    You have nothing to apologize for at all. These abusers were ass hats who's behavior make as much sense as vandals. Your frustration was understandable. As far as I am concerned you can blow off steam here as much as you like. Who has a better right?

    As to exactly what does or does not help your cause, as a long time advocate myself, I don't believe that anyone has cornered the market on that. In the end the Bicycle Trails Council of Marin had to fold up its tent and disband in the home of mountain biking, and they were a great bunch of guys.

    It is hard to help people and the payoff is illusive. Leadership is even more weird; folks with you are usually a few steps behind while your eye is on the goal...and you're digging, too. This is why I try to maintain contact with many other leaders; they understand in away that the rest of even the best crew does not. With luck, the crew has faith in you.

    We're all in this together.
    The crew has been all time. The experience epic. I'm happy I could be a part of so many volunteers joining together to make a difference. I've learned quite a bit and I am thankful for everyone's support and patience.

  79. #79
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    A little of topic, but does anyone know what time work will start tomorrow?

  80. #80
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    Yo red

    We scoped out the upper sections for the first time today, man that looks like your kinda trail!
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    We scoped out the upper sections for the first time today, man that looks like your kinda trail!
    Hey J it's been a while!

    Absolutely! Can't wait to rip it

  82. #82
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    I now there's been some issues with poach and saw the yellow construction caution tape, but I was disturbed to see someone had strung what looked like an electrical strand wire neck high booby trap across a couple trees. I'm hoping it wasn't one of the regular trail builders.
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  83. #83
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    I now there's been some issues with poach and saw the yellow construction caution tape, but I was disturbed to see someone had strung what looked like an electrical strand wire neck high booby trap across a couple trees. I'm hoping it wasn't one of the regular trail builders.
    Oh I hope not. We have always tried to keep things safe and all of the tools and rebar that could have hurt someone were always cleared from the trail.

    I've been out of town since the 13th. So it certainly wasn't me. If any of you see something dangerous on the trail please remove it. The blue wire in question used to have a sign on it. It shouldn't be hanging out on its own. Maybe the sign was removed? Dunno...

    Sunday and Monday the crew will be working starting at 10am here is the meeting spot

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1361072696.055283.jpg

    Thanks again for helping all.

  84. #84
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    Hey Davey yeah it looked like one end was disconnected and down on one side. Could have ben from the sign. I noticed it as we were getting on bikes and leaving. What a perfect day it was there. Trail looks killah!
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  85. #85
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    Hey Davey yeah it looked like one end was disconnected and down on one side. Could have ben from the sign. I noticed it as we were getting on bikes and leaving. What a perfect day it was there. Trail looks killah!
    Thank you Sir, glad you like the trail. Stoked you came by to check us out. When I get home I will remove the blue wire. It never even crossed my mind it could be used that way. Thanks again for pointing that out to me. Cheers.

  86. #86
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    I am excited to see this project happening. I only know a few people on the project but these guys have done killer work.

    As one trail builder to another... don't get hung up on the pirating of the trail. Its like my wife getting pissed when our cat eats a bird. Nature. Expect it, mtn bikers are anarchists, right? Rise to the challenge.

    Have some volunteers just address this one thing, so those who want to focus on design and construction are freed up. I love the wall of shame idea. We have 8 game cameras and love em (very cheap now $50). We use them to monitor our equipment when left on site, monitor new features to record fails, get user type and counts and...to ID a**holes. Our a**holes tear down signs and destroy berms with motos.

    My suggestion is to be as creative having fun with this challenge as you are building the trail because it is human nature regardless of how much you hate it.

    Can't wait to ride it! (I mean I will wait but am excited)

    z

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    Just about to buy my 2013 season pass today - cant wait to try this trail out when its ready. Big thanks to all the guys working on this - you rock!

  88. #88
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by zachi View Post
    I am excited to see this project happening. I only know a few people on the project but these guys have done killer work.

    As one trail builder to another... don't get hung up on the pirating of the trail. Its like my wife getting pissed when our cat eats a bird. Nature. Expect it, mtn bikers are anarchists, right? Rise to the challenge.

    Have some volunteers just address this one thing, so those who want to focus on design and construction are freed up. I love the wall of shame idea. We have 8 game cameras and love em (very cheap now $50). We use them to monitor our equipment when left on site, monitor new features to record fails, get user type and counts and...to ID a**holes. Our a**holes tear down signs and destroy berms with motos.

    My suggestion is to be as creative having fun with this challenge as you are building the trail because it is human nature regardless of how much you hate it.

    Can't wait to ride it! (I mean I will wait but am excited)

    z
    Z-

    Thanks. I was really upset when I started the thread. Only because I had seen how much work was done on that one turn by volunteers. These guys came out on a work day and went big all day. Then I saw the tracks in the soft unfinshed stuff. There was also a drain that was partially covered up before it had a screen placed on top of it and I spent way to long getting dirt out of a pipe that was fully buried. Honestly I wouldn't have cared if they had just stopped at the end of the finished trail but noooo, they had to go all the way to the end. I was kinda steamed.

    Obviously I was wrong to spout off on the intertubes and it would have been better to just ignore the whole thing. I hear you on the human nature thing. Even better to post super informative stuff that would help educate everyone. Not get all Hammer of Thor on everone because in the end that was me just being a dbag. So I wont internet angry anymore. I will just go to bed and the next morning continue being stoked bro. That is what brings out the volutneers, who built way more of the trail than I did.

    The MTBR community set me straight. This is my first official trail project and my first ever experience leading anything on around or near a trail (well other than super fun rides). So I learned a lot. I wont forget it when I get projects started in the future. So thanks MTBR bros, you put me on the right path and this whole experience has led me to believe that maybe something good can come from the internet after all.

    Obviously with the rain we have reached another crucial point in the build. Of course it will get finished but if the trail is respected this week it will likely open up way earlier than our projected official opening this May.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by mypuppynow View Post
    Just about to buy my 2013 season pass today - cant wait to try this trail out when its ready. Big thanks to all the guys working on this - you rock!
    Rock solid. Thanks for supporting Tamarancho.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    Hey Davey yeah it looked like one end was disconnected and down on one side. Could have ben from the sign. I noticed it as we were getting on bikes and leaving. What a perfect day it was there. Trail looks killah!
    Jim removed the blue wire this weekend.

  91. #91
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    As the bottom of Flo's Trail dumps onto Dead Heifer the natural descent northeast will put some "energy" right where Broken Dam crosses Dead Heifer. I imagine that this has been foreseen but I'll just say that signage seems called for.
    I don't rattle.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    As the bottom of Flo's Trail dumps onto Dead Heifer the natural descent northeast will put some "energy" right where Broken Dam crosses Dead Heifer. I imagine that this has been foreseen but I'll just say that signage seems called for.
    What do you mean? I am all ears.

    So far we are planning on riders doing multiple laps of the trail, planning on riders taking out DJ's and other "push bikes" and have planned on a push up Dead Heifer and ride up broken dam option with signage. This will keep guys from walking up broken dam, a narrow single track and hopefully avoiding user conflict. If anything I feel the trail will be a much needed area for riders to blow off steam and rip it up, downhill only with very little worry of user conflict.

    I am only taking a guess but I think you meant that riders will be headed down the short Dead Heifer portion and back onto the Tamarancho loop? Maybe with a bit of speed?

    It is a mostly flat section of fire road believe it or not. I'm open to ideas. So far I feel that a simple crossing traffic has right of way sign will be sufficient. The exit is planned to slow traffic and encourage riders to stop. Plus if you don't need to stop and take a little rest after this DH I will be very impressed with you.

    Anyone familiar to the project or the general area is encouraged to deliver feedback to me personally via my email dsimon@xojet.com, our facebook group:

    http://www.facebook.com/groups/133857646774851/

    Or even better in person with shovel in hand at the site. The best way to have an influence over the project show up and help out.

    Also be sure to take a peek and "like" our facebook fan page:

    http://www.facebook.com/TAMOFLOW

    Thanks again everyone.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by rednova75 View Post
    A little of topic, but does anyone know what time work will start tomorrow?
    Sorry I missed this. All work days start at 10am or a little later if the coffee isn't strong enough

  94. #94
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    So, is this how it works?


    Myself or anyone, grabs a Tamarancho pass, parks in Fairfax and rides up to the actual Boy Scout camp in the valley (which would mean some riding on the fire roads?).

    If we get there by 10:00am, we will some guys with moustaches and bikes, and then we will all roll down to the flow trail and start smacking berms with the backside of a shovel?

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by squareback View Post
    So, is this how it works?


    Myself or anyone, grabs a Tamarancho pass, parks in Fairfax and rides up to the actual Boy Scout camp in the valley (which would mean some riding on the fire roads?).

    If we get there by 10:00am, we will some guys with moustaches and bikes, and then we will all roll down to the flow trail and start smacking berms with the backside of a shovel?
    Sorry I don't understand your question. If you would like to volunteer you should show up at 10am on a weekend.

    There are several very experienced trail builders including two professionals who will give you directions and guide you along the way. The entire build is being supervised and directed by Jim Jacobson who has built most of the legal bike trail in the county.

    Of course we are happy to have anyone show up and help us with many different tasks. From carrying tools to building a wooden bridge. Berm smacking is one of many tasks but a very important one.

    Thank you for your interest.

  96. #96
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    I just need to know exactly where to be, and I can be there. Other people were unclear about when and where beer can be consumed, and you clarified that for them.

    I am unclear on the exact place where volunteers should "show up" , that's all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    Sorry I don't understand your question. If you would like to volunteer you should show up at 10am on a weekend.

    There are several very experienced trail builders including two professionals who will give you directions and guide you along the way. The entire build is being supervised and directed by Jim Jacobson who has built most of the legal bike trail in the county.

    Of course we are happy to have anyone show up and help us with many different tasks. From carrying tools to building a wooden bridge. Berm smacking is one of many tasks but a very important one.

    Thank you for your interest.

  97. #97
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    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!

    Quote Originally Posted by squareback View Post
    I just need to know exactly where to be, and I can be there. Other people were unclear about when and where beer can be consumed, and you clarified that for them.

    I am unclear on the exact place where volunteers should "show up" , that's all.
    Clear as mud?

    Tamarancho flow trail poachers. The flow trail is closed!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1361382789.373488.jpg

  98. #98
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    I fixed it up for the visual learners:

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    any one gonna be digging tomorrow Friday 22? i'm down to come out and dig

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thelonelydigger View Post
    any one gonna be digging tomorrow Friday 22? i'm down to come out and dig
    Please join Dan Barnes at the flow trail tomorrow at 11AM. All are welcome. Dan will lead work for the day compacting and shaping all of the hard work that was done last weekend.

    Thank you Thelonelydigger. Looks like you wont be lonely anymore

    Dan should be at the bottom of the trail at 1130 or so. If you can't find him have a stroll around and check out the trail if you haven't done so already. I think you will be pretty stoked on what you will find.

    Thanks again for helping!

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