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  1. #1
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    Tamarancho Flow Trail Heartache

    Don't get me wrong, I am very greatfull for all the hard work that people have put into improving Tamarancho's flow trail....but is it just me or has Endor (flow trail) brought out some knuckleheads....I have always encountered people while riding Tamarancho and with the trails being tight and true singletrack there has been some close calls. But with the Flow trail open it has been really bad lately, I wasn't even up ironsprings today and here comes some dude with his motocross helmet going about 30 on the wrong side of a blind corner, just about took me out couldnt even say anything as he didnt even attempt to slow his dumbass down after he almost hit me....then I ran into about 10 guys...again all geared up with motocross gear coming down serpentine. I had an older guy and his what I assume to be grandson riding in front of me and the guys coming off the flow trail didnt even try to slow down let alone give the right away to the bikes going up....People acting like this are going to give Tam and the Flow a bad name....Hopefully the newness wears off and the knuckleheads get tired of the climb up there.....

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHart94949 View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I am very greatfull for all the hard work that people have put into improving Tamarancho's flow trail....but is it just me or has Endor (flow trail) brought out some knuckleheads....I have always encountered people while riding Tamarancho and with the trails being tight and true singletrack there has been some close calls. But with the Flow trail open it has been really bad lately, I wasn't even up ironsprings today and here comes some dude with his motocross helmet going about 30 on the wrong side of a blind corner, just about took me out couldnt even say anything as he didnt even attempt to slow his dumbass down after he almost hit me....then I ran into about 10 guys...again all geared up with motocross gear coming down serpentine. I had an older guy and his what I assume to be grandson riding in front of me and the guys coming off the flow trail didnt even try to slow down let alone give the right away to the bikes going up....People acting like this are going to give Tam and the Flow a bad name....Hopefully the newness wears off and the knuckleheads get tired of the climb up there.....
    Seems to me that Tamarancho is the perfect test bed for all sorts of progression in the MTB world. Etiquette being the next great frontier.

    What rules of conduct can we create? I'm thinking first offense = 30 days probation. Second offense = 6 months. 3rd strike, you're out.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Seems to me that Tamarancho is the perfect test bed for all sorts of progression in the MTB world. Etiquette being the next great frontier.

    What rules of conduct can we create? I'm thinking first offense = 30 days probation. Second offense = 6 months. 3rd strike, you're out.
    Are we going to bring Chris Lang out of retirement...who is going to enforce this, and how?

    You have to remember that a couple careless riders, wether they are caught up in the moment or really are dumb asses...can create a bad vibe. Didn't we already go thru this? Maybe we should just go for a ride and wait for things to work themselves out

    I rode Tamarancho yesterday and had a great time...no dumbasses

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by uncle mama View Post
    Are we going to bring Chris Lang out of retirement...who is going to enforce this, and how?

    You have to remember that a couple careless riders, wether they are caught up in the moment or really are dumb asses...can create a bad vibe. Didn't we already go thru this? Maybe we should just go for a ride and wait for things to work themselves out

    I rode Tamarancho yesterday and had a great time...no dumbasses
    I dunno. I was just thinking this is a good test case to police ourselves and find good policy/ideas that can be extended elsewhere.

    But if not. That's fine. I'll just go back to pummelling pvd on my fat bike!
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    I dunno. I was just thinking this is a good test case to police ourselves and find good policy/ideas that can be extended elsewhere.

    But if not. That's fine. I'll just go back to pummelling pvd on my fat bike!
    since when do you have a Fatbike? Really? Sweet!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    I dunno. I was just thinking this is a good test case to police ourselves and find good policy/ideas that can be extended elsewhere.

    But if not. That's fine. I'll just go back to pummelling pvd on my fat bike!
    Pete likes to get pummeled

  7. #7
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    More users means more dumbasses. That's with a constant proportion of dumbasses to non-dumbasses. Let's not jump to the conclusion that a 'different type of rider' has been brought out, and conflicts can be laid at their feet.

    Any one can make an anecdote sound really convincing if it plays to the audience's prejudices. Like this one:

    I spent over 7 hours on Endor Saturday and saw exactly one rude user. Older guy, white, fit, team kit (spandex boyee), XC bike, flying past people who were waiting at the top of the flow trail for their turn. The reason he flew by? I have no idea, but I'm going to make something plausible up and many will believe me. Some of the Strava segments for flow trail begin at the intersection w/ B17 extension. Some dudes are sprinting down B17X right through the connecter to Endor. Strava-tard skids through the f-ing staging area where responsible riders are lined up, watching the progress of the riders below so they can gauge when to begin.
    Totally plausible, right?

    I believe your story (why doubt it?) but I don't believe that full face and moto jersey guys are more likely to be bad trail users than other riders. What is true is that a lot of people who have never ridden Tamarancho are coming out. Many people (even some of the old guard) could use a refresher on good trail ettiquette. We're all going to have to work at leading by example and reaching out when appropriate.

  8. #8
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    I started this thread: Tamarancho étiquette about this very issue the first week that the Flow trail was opened due to a bunch of close calls over 2 days, including one guy and his teenage kid cursing and yelling at 3 us for not getting out of their way while we were climbing up Alchemist, a kid in jeans and a skate helmet with no shirt laying his bike down across the trail in a desperate, skidding attempt to avoid taking us out while he was coming down Alchemist, another kid that tried to pass me who clipped my handle bars and sent himself over the edge while I was climbing up Broken Dam, and another jeans guy that sent me into a tree while I was climbing near the top of Alchemist. I've since stopped riding there on weekends as I don't have the patience to deal with the egos and idiots that now flock there and don't really want to find myself in a physical confrontation with a guy in a full face helmet...

    It sucks that a few self-centered idiots have to make things suck for everyone else, and make the bike community look bad to the residents that live on Iron Springs road and the neighborhoods at its base.

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    MTBR is not complete without it's weekly DramaRancho thread.

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    If you think other cyclists are bad just wait til you encounter a hiker, a hiker with an unleashed dog, or god forbid someone riding a HORSE on you personal bike trail.

  11. #11
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    NIMBYism at it's best!
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  12. #12
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    I have to agree that folks need to keep it mellow on Iron Springs rd. But, how do you justify judging other riders based on the gear they choose? That mentality tears our user group apart.

  13. #13
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    Tamarancho has evolved a really great riding style over the years of largely XC riders. The cooperative nature of the style was amazing. We now have a new group of riders who have come to the Flow Trail in numbers as a destination, as well they should, with an unmitigated set of desires for their experience which sticks out like a sore thumb. It isn't as if this effect was not expected. At the instigation of the Flow Trail idea there were a substantial number of local riders who resisted the idea of this development for all of the reasons that we are hearing now.

    Experienced local riders and long-standing Tamarancho subscribers are neither stupid nor nimby. Highly skilled and community oriented riders are commenting at trailsides about the weirdness they are experience from the new populations of participants. It is as if these new guests represent that oft-cited "small percentage of riders who make it hard for all of the rest of us."

    In the past "policing" in Tamarancho did exist but it just wasn't apparent. It was pretty organic and non-confrontational; the style emerged from a mass of riders over many years who used a certain type of trail and those who fell outside of the style came into the fold gradually. The mass influx of very differently-styled riders is a major effect which will be intrusive. How we decide to manage it will be interesting and will take some time to develop and apply.

    iHeart suggests:

    "Seems to me that Tamarancho is the perfect test bed for all sorts of progression in the MTB world. Etiquette being the next great frontier."

    It's kinda funny for those of us who have worked to police ourselves for many years, and gotten no end of crap for it, to hear that the time has come to try and develop a method for it. We don't have to reinvent the wheel; there are plenty of people out there who know how to do this. It was developed by MBTC, BTCEB, and ROMP many years ago, and co-opted by IMBA. It is called Bike Patrol.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Tamarancho Flow Trail Heartache-e120812aandt2210.jpg  

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottParsley View Post
    I have to agree that folks need to keep it mellow on Iron Springs rd. But, how do you justify judging other riders based on the gear they choose? That mentality tears our user group apart.

    I think it a mistake to deny that our user group is unsegmented. While we may all be on 2 wheels, different groups have different goals and needs to serve. Just listen to the different voices on the different forums.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    I think it a mistake to deny that our user group is unsegmented. While we may all be on 2 wheels, different groups have different goals and needs to serve. Just listen to the different voices on the different forums.
    You are correct. Mountain biking is obviously segmented into groups with different needs. However, I don't believe that our[mountain bikers?] opponents differentiate as much as we do. We need not judge each other based on bikes, gear, components and such. It would be a mistake to deny that sticking together is better for us[mt. bikers?]

    So just to be clear, what type of helmet am I supposed to wear to correctly run people over on ISR?

  16. #16
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    A few more observations on the knucklehead factor:

    Saw 2 guys smoking at the top of the flow trail....real health nuts.
    Saw a guy come down the flow trail sporting a baseball cap, when I all but told him he was a moron, his reply was that going helmetless is OK because he rides a motorcycle.
    Have seen more than a few guys riding directly up Iron Springs past the regular trail head. I am guessing that they are too lazy to climb the first trail and just want to get to the flow trail in the absolute easiest way possible.

    Definitely a different crowd out there these days.
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    I agree totally with the OP and that is I will only ride Tamarancho on the early weekdays to minimize the traffic and degree of dumbass encounters from riders that do not have any etiquette. It is unfortunate, I would love to contribute more time there but I would rather deal with fully suited "real" downhill bombers in Downieville, Demo, etc, where it is the norm and the etiquette in regards to direction of flow. I really feel for the locals and old schoolers that have been hitting this trail for over 10-15 years. The influx of new traffic must be annoying to deal with. Come over to the other side of the Bay and ride Skeggs! Its all good!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottParsley View Post

    However, I don't believe that our [mountain bikers?] opponents differentiate as much as we do. We need not judge each other based on bikes, gear, components and such. It would be a mistake to deny that sticking together is better for us[mt. bikers?]
    In this context we weren't talking about opponents but the fact of conflicting riding values and expectations. Those need to be recognized to apply an appropriate approach to managing the stress. It has nothing to do with dividing us.

    As to gear, if I see a guy in a full-face helmet at Tilden I know he has no idea what he is doing there. It would be obtuse to suggest that gear is not an indicator of riding behavior. As someone who has lead over 1000 group rides I depend upon my ability to make decisions about riders based upon what I see. Some folks don't like that; I depend on it and use it to advantage to make things work. Now, whether they behave well of not is another thing altogether.
    I don't rattle.

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    That sucks that people are having so many bad experiences with other users out at Tamarancho. I think it just goes with the territory though. The more popular a trail is the more likely it is that you'll encounter someone who doesn't care about anyone but themselves.
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  20. #20
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    I also agree with the OP, though not a hater, the changes are immediately evident. This is the first year I bought a season pass and now it is mostly going to waste. Last time I rode the loop (on a weekday) I noticed five or six guys congregating around a van parked directly in front of a house at the bottom of Iron Springs drinking beer and actually blasting music out of the back doors of the van. I know that sounds like a hilarious stereotype but I saw it with own damn eyes and had to double/triple take to believe it. Not that it means anything, but I also witnessed a couple of smokers leaning on their big travel bikes at the B-17/Flow intersection. Awesome trail, awesome people, but the change is readily apparent. I'm certain the residents are noticing

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocop View Post
    I bought a season pass and now it is mostly going to waste.
    Seriously? Did you forget you typed that in the middle of the story about the loud van, or does what happened once on a road near a trail system so strongly drive how often you ride there? I'm missing the part that makes this post make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by ghettocop View Post
    Not that it means anything
    This.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snfoilhat View Post
    Seriously? Did you forget you typed that in the middle of the story about the loud van, or does what happened once on a road near a trail system so strongly drive how often you ride there? I'm missing the part that makes this post make sense.


    This.
    Nope. I didn't forget anything. Thanks for asking though. Here is the part that will make sense to you........ Much more crowded. Does not feel like remote singletrack anymore. Therefore, time for me is being spent elsewhere. No biggie man.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    In this context we weren't talking about opponents but the fact of conflicting riding values and expectations. Those need to be recognized to apply an appropriate approach to managing the stress. It has nothing to do with dividing us.

    As to gear, if I see a guy in a full-face helmet at Tilden I know he has no idea what he is doing there. It would be obtuse to suggest that gear is not an indicator of riding behavior. As someone who has lead over 1000 group rides I depend upon my ability to make decisions about riders based upon what I see. Some folks don't like that; I depend on it and use it to advantage to make things work. Now, whether they behave well of not is another thing altogether.
    I once saw a rider with a Fox 40 DH fork on a Specialized Enduro climbing to the top of Palomares road... Can't judge a book by its cover.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by fourarm View Post
    Have seen more than a few guys riding directly up Iron Springs past the regular trail head. I am guessing that they are too lazy to climb the first trail and just want to get to the flow trail in the absolute easiest way possible.
    .
    I ride there quite a bit, am not lazy, and am hardly a beginner. I actually prefer riding the road all the way to the top, before starting my regular clockwise loop. First, its actually a longer climb. Second, no worrying about congestion on the one trail at Tamo that truly gets two-way traffic.

  25. #25
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    Tamarancho is mountain biking. It's a place where non-city people go.
    I'm not sure how this works.

  26. #26
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    This thread and the sentiments in it prove that not every rider wants mountain biking to grow. There are some folks who have their favorite trail and just want it to themselves or some small group of people they judge -- through a signal such as age or bike type or helmet style -- to be part of their little tribe.

    They mistakenly believe that their favorite trail wouldn't disappear without periodic attention from trailbuilders. Wouldn't disappear without the energy, money, and youth that the next generation brings to keep it all going. Selfish "I was here first; I paid my dues" attitudes do not move dirt or rock or root or water.

    Maybe it's a dumb cliche or more marketing than reality that all riders are supposed to want the sport to grow. If you don't feel that way, fine. But you don't own any trail (off your land, obvs), and you don't own riding. You don't get to write rules nor enforce them. And no one is building new trails specifically for you, like in some homage to how rad it is that you rode bad elastomer forks or down a hillside that is now closed, back in the day.

    All anyone cares about is how well you are taking care of the community.

    Helping a new rider to understand that the simple/almost universal guidelines for yielding trail make everyone's experience better -- yes! Say something. In person. In the moment. (or STFU, hey?)

    Every single one of these *****fest threads where crusty old timers try to outdo eachother in a drama storm of patting eachother on the back and circling the wagons against your fantasy 'enemies': kids, DJers, downhillers, music. They aren't helping anyone. They aren't improving any trail. They aren't making a single thing in the world better. Get the **** over yourselves.

    And it is so backwards, so telling how shitty these attitudes are, that these threads are about Tamarancho, a trail system that is being purposely guided towards new people and new riding.

    Everyone is invited to ride. Everyone is invited to contribute time, skills, effort, cash, enthusiasm, and put it right into the trail or pass it along to the rider chiling out next in line. There are going to be other riders. In the parking lot. On the trails, moving in both directions. Waiting at the top of the flow. Congregating and sharing the stoke at the bottom of flow. Hiking up the fireroad. Everywhere! Because the sport is growing and it is necessarily part-social. "Riders must stay on singletrack," that famous, awesome sign. It pushes us together, literally. If anyone wants isolation in the bay area, they had better drop a few mil on a ranch and some fences. The Interstate is waiting to take you somewhere more deserted.

    When Demo opens the new trail, there are going to be more users there. See the pattern?

    Luckily all the Tamrancho/Flow threads being bumped to the top of MTRB-Norcal every week by this never-ending whiners convention probably isn't hurting anyone or anything too much. But some of you folks actually think you're helping! You're not.

    If you can improve riding for everyone, go out and do it. Tell the bros in the gnar-van about relations between riders and Fairfax homeowners. Tell the guy in the motocross helmet that taking the right-side line while descending, even when that's the inside line, is important on 2-direction trails. They aren't subscribed to this thread! You'll have to use that pretty face for some word talkin in the real life.

    If you have a chip on your shoulder then stay home. No one will miss you. (Because, well, the trails are so crowded what with the flow, and so if someone quits, well, fewer people on the trails know what I mean) :P

  27. #27
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    Signage may help.

  28. #28
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    tinfoil for president.

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    I never really understood these types of threads. If I feel wronged on the trail, Im either going to do something about it right on the spot or forget about it and move on. I don't really see the point of letting it fester inside of you to the point you have to vent to hundreds of people on the internet that you don't even know. MTBR is not the center of the mountain bike universe. 7 out of 10 riders never even heard of MTBR so slim chance it will be seen by the persons that you had a problem with anyway.

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    Was there sat and had some similar experiences. I think that broken dam is getting much more traffic in Counter-Clockwise on Broken dam . Some quite fast. This is the fastest way to the new trail. Could we perhaps have a sign showing alternate ways of accessing the trail (white's hill for example)? Just an idea.

    The trail is really fun and attracting lots of good feelings overall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snfoilhat View Post
    This thread and the sentiments in it prove that not every rider wants mountain biking to grow. There are some folks who have their favorite trail and just want it to themselves or some small group of people they judge -- through a signal such as age or bike type or helmet style -- to be part of their little tribe.

    If you can improve riding for everyone, go out and do it. Tell the bros in the gnar-van about relations between riders and Fairfax homeowners. Tell the guy in the motocross helmet that taking the right-side line while descending, even when that's the inside line, is important on 2-direction trails. They aren't subscribed to this thread! You'll have to use that pretty face for some word talkin in the real life.
    I've always been a huge advocate of growing the sport, I've taught it, I've guided tours, I've built and maintained trails, and I like -and have given a sizable amount of money towards- the Flow Trail. I also want to see Tamarancho continue to be open to bikes and I don't want the neighbors to pressure them to shut it down; I'd like to ride up there without worrying about me, my wife, or the guests I take up there getting hurt by someone coming down Alchemist, Broken Dam, or Iron Springs without thought or care to anyone else; and I'd like to see the biking community -in all its diversity- use common sense and common courtesy when riding, but sadly, this is not the case. It would be a wonderful world indeed if everyone respected everyone else, but it isn't, it will never be, and therefore there need to be some basic rules. I don't care what "tribe" you identify with, I judge you on how you treat those around you, and if you are being a d*ck, it doesn't matter what helmet you are wearing.

    Of the 4 incidents I mentioned earlier, 3 of them were contrite and apologetic, one was confrontational and threatening. The confrontational guy was my age (mid 40's or early 50's) with his teen kid, the rest were under 21, with one being maybe 15. The confrontational guy was dressed in "normal" gear, the rest in jeans or running shorts and ill-fitting skate helmets. These latter were young, excited about the ride, unaware of the "rules" at Tamarancho (or riding in general), unfamiliar with the trail itself, and unsure of their and their bike's limitations. I think, and hope, that they learned from those near-misses and that they now ride up there with those things in mind The older guy was instantly defensive and escalated the situation nearly to the point of blows. I doubt he learned anything and now his kid is emboldened to believe that he always has the right of way going down Alchemist and if someone causes him to stop, he has every right to turn it into a fight. How many of you are willing to confront riders being a**holes at the risk of getting into a confrontation? I think we are all aware of how group dynamics work when one guy goes up to a group of guys and tells them what to do, even in the most contrite way. Even if they aren't on MTBR, some of their friends are and the more they hear about all this drama, the more likely it is that they will ride Tamarancho with some of these issues in mind.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    As to gear, if I see a guy in a full-face helmet at Tilden I know he has no idea what he is doing there.
    Funny you should say this, I use to ride Tilden all the time in a FF, I ride China Camp in a FF, I ride Tamarancho, in a FF, I have raced SeaOtter in a FF.

    When I ride I wear a FF 95% of the time, your prospective changes once you have seen your brother eat thanksgiving through a straw after a freak Mtn bike accident.

    Heck I even wear knee and elbow pads cause it's easier to dust yourself off than pick gravel out of your joints.

    PPE is a personal choice and the stigma surrounding it is laughable at best. I wear the gear not because I doubt my abilities, I wear it cause freak things happen, sometimes the other person is the freak, sometimes the accident is.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottParsley View Post
    You are correct. Mountain biking is obviously segmented into groups with different needs. However, I don't believe that our[mountain bikers?] opponents differentiate as much as we do. We need not judge each other based on bikes, gear, components and such. It would be a mistake to deny that sticking together is better for us[mt. bikers?]

    So just to be clear, what type of helmet am I supposed to wear to correctly run people over on ISR?
    I have seen a couple comments about judging people on their riding gear.....This is not what I meant, and I appologize if that is how it came across...I have come across many people with full face moto gear and they were great curtious riders. I was just making a comment that the guys who almost took me out was wearing that and most of the XC tamarancho guys are not wearing full gear like that.....My bad just assuming he was a Flow Trail rider based on his gear...Not what I meant.....I can add that I fear for some of these guys safety, I saw a few non-helmet riders coming up B-17 on my way out. Is there a helmet policy at Tamrancho??? If not this is something the Boy Scouts should look into implementing.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    Of the 4 incidents I mentioned earlier, 3 of them were contrite and apologetic, one was confrontational and threatening.
    When it comes down to it, these trails are open to the public and you've got a pretty good sampling of the general population right there- 75% clueless but mean well, 25% uneducated douche. ha.

    Seriously though, as mountain biking becomes more popular with the general public we will begin to see the entire spectrum from super cool people to all out douche bags on trails that are popular. Sometimes people are going to suck, but if you let them put you in a bad mood on a good ride then the commies and terrorists have already won.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    When it comes down to it, these trails are open to the public and you've got a pretty good sampling of the general population right there- 75% clueless but mean well, 25% uneducated douche. ha.
    Actually it's 74% Clueless, 25% douche, 1% totally awesome like us! Yes, to those of your that don't realize I'm kidding, I'm kidding...

    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    Seriously though, as mountain biking becomes more popular with the general public we will begin to see the entire spectrum from super cool people to all out douche bags on trails that are popular. Sometimes people are going to suck, but if you let them put you in a bad mood on a good ride then the commies and terrorists have already won.
    The primary concern that I have -and is shared by many of us that have brought these issues up- is not being put in a bad mood, it's about safety and about access. It's not about trying to keep people away from "my" trail or an effort to make people ride "my" way while wearing gear in "my" style. I don't care what people ride, what they wear, what their favorite style of riding is, so long as it doesn't hurt, damage, or significantly impact others enjoyment. This holds true whether they be other riders at Tamarancho or the people that live on Iron Springs Road and in the neighborhoods at its base. In this case, if the "commies and terrorists" win, it could well be "bye-bye" Flow Trail and Tamarancho due to liability issues and/or issues on Iron Springs Road, much of which is also private property. That would suck for everyone, including the 25% that don't seem to care anyway.

  36. #36
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    IMHO Tamarancho should now just be a one-way clockwise system on the weekends! For those riders that want to hit the flow trail, they either have to ride the long way around or park up at Whites Hill and take porcupine up to the flow, and then have to ride or hike back up Dead Heffer.

    I also agree that the Boy Scouts should make it compulsory to wear a helmet when riding Tamo. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw a dude in his late forties riding the trail in a baseball cap!

    Also, on a side note the next work to be done a Tamo should be a DH only trail that takes you from Goldman to Iron springs road, so Alchemist can also be a up hill one way trail!

  37. #37
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    Growth is not simple; just ask a teen who's muscle, tendons, bones, and brains are all growing at different rates. It is awkward at best. That is what is happening here.

    There is no such thing as common sense or common courtesy; it is a myth overused by folks who want to see the world work their way. Reference to it is largely non-constructive except that it expresses a desire for harmony.

    I do believe, though, in Tamarancho Sense. It is something that has developed over many years by the thousands of riders who define it. It is a real and remarkable thing. Yeah there were definitely lycra clowns and riders clearly in over their heads but that was pretty rare. Our new guests don't understand it; how can they, they are new.

    The idea of spreading Tamarancho Sense wants some clear thinking. When crossed by someone who places me in danger the first thing I think of is "fuxamatterwhichoo?" Clearly that's not going to help anything.

    What we are doing here and now is a great first step. We need to continue to air this out.
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  38. #38
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    I'm just sad about the namecalling in these threads.......knuckle heads, need to learn to ride, disrespectful idiots, etc.......... With no clear "rules" you cannot expect things to remain the same, and you, as well as others, have opinions on how things should be........the problem is, these threads seem to evolve into a "line in the sand" scenario with folks on either side claiming to be right. This shit is getting worse than politics........I complained about a trail and was told I obviously don't know how to ride in anything other than a straight line ............ still wondering what that had to do with not liking how something was done..........
    Master of Nothing, but dammit if I don't try..............

  39. #39
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    Bike patrol up there on weekends would be a great step. Those that were aggo towards the bike patrol would indicate they were part of the problem. I suspect there would be such a group.

    I, personally, wouldn't go up there on a weekend now.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snfoilhat View Post
    This thread and the sentiments in it prove that not every rider wants mountain biking to grow. There are some folks who have their favorite trail and just want it to themselves or some small group of people they judge -- through a signal such as age or bike type or helmet style -- to be part of their little tribe.

    They mistakenly believe that their favorite trail wouldn't disappear without periodic attention from trailbuilders. Wouldn't disappear without the energy, money, and youth that the next generation brings to keep it all going. Selfish "I was here first; I paid my dues" attitudes do not move dirt or rock or root or water.

    Maybe it's a dumb cliche or more marketing than reality that all riders are supposed to want the sport to grow. If you don't feel that way, fine. But you don't own any trail (off your land, obvs), and you don't own riding. You don't get to write rules nor enforce them. And no one is building new trails specifically for you, like in some homage to how rad it is that you rode bad elastomer forks or down a hillside that is now closed, back in the day.

    All anyone cares about is how well you are taking care of the community.

    Helping a new rider to understand that the simple/almost universal guidelines for yielding trail make everyone's experience better -- yes! Say something. In person. In the moment. (or STFU, hey?)

    Every single one of these *****fest threads where crusty old timers try to outdo eachother in a drama storm of patting eachother on the back and circling the wagons against your fantasy 'enemies': kids, DJers, downhillers, music. They aren't helping anyone. They aren't improving any trail. They aren't making a single thing in the world better. Get the **** over yourselves.

    And it is so backwards, so telling how shitty these attitudes are, that these threads are about Tamarancho, a trail system that is being purposely guided towards new people and new riding.

    Everyone is invited to ride. Everyone is invited to contribute time, skills, effort, cash, enthusiasm, and put it right into the trail or pass it along to the rider chiling out next in line. There are going to be other riders. In the parking lot. On the trails, moving in both directions. Waiting at the top of the flow. Congregating and sharing the stoke at the bottom of flow. Hiking up the fireroad. Everywhere! Because the sport is growing and it is necessarily part-social. "Riders must stay on singletrack," that famous, awesome sign. It pushes us together, literally. If anyone wants isolation in the bay area, they had better drop a few mil on a ranch and some fences. The Interstate is waiting to take you somewhere more deserted.

    When Demo opens the new trail, there are going to be more users there. See the pattern?

    Luckily all the Tamrancho/Flow threads being bumped to the top of MTRB-Norcal every week by this never-ending whiners convention probably isn't hurting anyone or anything too much. But some of you folks actually think you're helping! You're not.

    If you can improve riding for everyone, go out and do it. Tell the bros in the gnar-van about relations between riders and Fairfax homeowners. Tell the guy in the motocross helmet that taking the right-side line while descending, even when that's the inside line, is important on 2-direction trails. They aren't subscribed to this thread! You'll have to use that pretty face for some word talkin in the real life.

    If you have a chip on your shoulder then stay home. No one will miss you. (Because, well, the trails are so crowded what with the flow, and so if someone quits, well, fewer people on the trails know what I mean) :P
    Seems to me, you are doing a bit of whining, generalizing, and stereotyping yourself. No one has said they "want those Monster-Energy,Troy Lee Designs Teenagers out of Tamarancho", in fact, the opposite was said. You put "music" in the mix above, obviously referencing my post describing the van blasting music with riders around it drinking beer.
    No matter how you try to describe that as a different "tribe" is total BS. I believe most here are grown-azz men. Grown-ups don't park in front of some strangers house and stand outside while blasting music. If you do, you are a chitbird.

  41. #41
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    Sorry dude. In your rush to take what I wrote personally, you missed the point.

    most people here
    are not representitive of people riding the actual trails. And their comments serve little purpose but to leave a stupid, searchable, and lasting trace of infighting and crybabying on the web. Most people here are grown-azz men who were taught how to yield years ago. This thread and many like it suffer not only from reckless and pathetic self-centeredness, but from a whole lot of preaching to the choir.

    The problems at Tamarancho are 1) being vastly overstated on the forums and 2) can only be meaningfully addressed <i>off the forums</i>, i.e. IRL at Tamarancho.

    Yes, the different tribe thing is B.S. Yes. Yeah. Yeah buddy. Affirmative. We are all in this together. Was exactly what I said in my post above. I'm merely pointing out the painfully obvious, which is that some people -- not you or I -- clearly are lumping and splitting based on clothes or bikes and trying to assign guilt and innocence, good manners and bad manners, along the same exact lines. Which is B.S.

    Thank you for agreeing and emphasizing. It's going to take teamwork. I knew when I read your post that underneath we actually believe all the same stuff. So why does it look like we're in disagreement?

    I will repeat (again and again if need be): if grown-azz men see someone out of line, then grown-azz men can confidently, politely, educate the offender and make everyone's future a little brighter. Use your words.

  42. #42
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    Man it was great up there today from 11:30 -1:00 pm.
    Nobody but Davey , Me and Montana Danna.
    Sorry you all missed it.
    No Drama today.
    Most days actually.
    Go Flow.
    Yo.
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snfoilhat View Post

    The problems at Tamarancho are 1) being vastly overstated on the forums and 2) can only be meaningfully addressed <i>off the forums</i>, i.e. IRL at Tamarancho.

    1) I disagree with this. I have heard this from numerous people I respect who have ridden Tamarancho for years. There is a difference.

    2) Further, one of the greatest functions of MTBR is to thrash out ideas. It isn't always pretty and some are better than others at it; sorta like riding.

    What is done here is meaningful, warts and all. For at least 12-13 years I can think of these MTBR discussions have been going on and in that time it has helped pace the development of the mountain biking cultures. The tone has evolved a great deal, as has the understanding of what this sport is all about.

    What happens here effects what happens on the trails. For some, just hearing the ideas and the phrasing helps when it comes time to sort out issues at the trailhead. I am constantly learning from these discussions; both what to say and not to say, how to say it and how not to say it. Sometimes I learn most from the people with whom I disagree as the conflict brings clarity and definition. While I may not change my mind my understanding is deeper and new ideas are formed.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 05-28-2013 at 08:10 PM.
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  44. #44
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    Will be out there tomorrow then heading to the screening of Singletrack High in Oakland. Unless Q&A guest Greg Minaar ruins mountain biking with his push bike.

    Pumped!

  45. #45
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    See you at the Parkway!
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  46. #46
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    "Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded". - Yogi Berra

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    2) Further, one of the greatest functions of MTBR is to thrash out ideas. It isn't always pretty and some are better than others at it; sorta like riding.

    What is done here is meaningful, warts and all. For at least 12-13 years I can think of these MTBR discussions have been going on and in that time it has helped pace the development of the mountain biking cultures. The tone has evolved a great deal, as has the understanding of what this sport is all about.

    What happens here effects what happens on the trails. For some, just hearing the ideas and the phrasing helps when it comes time to sort out issues at the trailhead. I am constantly learning from these discussions; both what to say and not to say, how to say it and how not to say it. Sometimes I learn most from the people with whom I disagree as the conflict brings clarity and definition. While I may not change my mind my understanding is deeper and new ideas are formed.


    Wow, For the few who comprehend and understand your verbose, over worded posts. Perhaps. But for anyone who comes to this forum to gleen a bit on info on trails etc. The negitivity sends us running the opposite way. This place is but a flea on the back of my Mt. Biking partner.. Who is always happy regardless of the drama du jour. Happy Trails!

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truckee29 View Post
    Wow, For the few who comprehend and understand your verbose, over worded posts. Perhaps. But for anyone who comes to this forum to gleen a bit on info on trails etc. The negitivity sends us running the opposite way. This place is but a flea on the back of my Mt. Biking partner.. Who is always happy regardless of the drama du jour. Happy Trails!
    Thats our little east bay yakker!!
    Goooo Mike!
    Banned for showing Boobies.

  49. #49
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

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