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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    Exactly. So why is it done openly on Strava by those people who you would think are the most invested in this sport (the avid riders on this forum, those that work in the bike industry)?
    please see post #81
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    not sure what exactly you're saying.
    Me either

    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    I have been on perimeter walks with Rangers there, assisted in organizing replacing vandalized signs....and to point out Ranger Brennan is aware that MTB' use out there keeps the pot farms small and the homeless camping infrequent...
    I would think that if this was true, then the pot farm operation in that article wouldn't be the size that it was.

    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post

    This area is a good example of riding 'volunteer' trails and having it OK with authorities.....
    Little ripper for sure.. Really nice shot.
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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by kattrap View Post
    ....I would think that if this was true, then the pot farm operation in that article wouldn't be the size that it was.
    ..
    A couple hundred containers is not that big for a pot operation....it was really pretty small to be honest...

    but that's besides the point - LEO Rangers agree that the user traffic keeps the illicit behavior to a minimum....


    * appreciate the compliment on my lil' ripper
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  4. #104
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    Stop your whining!
    I see this and other sharing/logging sites as an eventual positive. The authorities already know the locations of the vast majority of these so-called hidden trails. What Strava and other sites do is quantify the astounding amount of "illegal" riding that occurs as a result of there not being adequate opportunities for fun riding that has been made "legal" by the authorities. I put quotes around those terms because of the ridiculousness of riding a bicycle on remote dirt dirt trails being something needing such regulation.

    Sure, some trails may be discovered and closed in the short term, but I hope/believe that in the long run the documentation of thousands of rides on illegal trails with no uptick in actual negative events will lead to more opportunities and realistic policies in the future. Think of it as digital non-violent civil disobedience of inane policy.
    THE BAY AREA... WHERE IF IT'S FUN, IT'S ILLEGAL

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menso View Post

    Sure, some trails may be discovered and closed in the short term, but I hope/believe that in the long run the documentation of thousands of rides on illegal trails with no uptick in actual negative events will lead to more opportunities and realistic policies in the future. Think of it as digital non-violent civil disobedience of inane policy.
    On the one hand I hope you're right. On the other, I fear you aren't.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    Exactly. So why is it done openly on Strava by those people who you would think are the most invested in this sport (the avid riders on this forum, those that work in the bike industry)?
    I don't think that's the issue in most cases, people stumble across trails, ride them, and post them up, or the segment is auto-created on a climb. It could also be created by runners/hikers. Can't really fault anyone if it's accidental, it's not like there's a sign saying "illegal trail do not share on social networking sites." The people who have been riding the trails of questionable legality for years aren't normally the people who are creating the segments or publicly posting their rides on them. Like someone said earlier in the thread all you can do is let newer people know about keeping their rides private if they aren't sure.

  7. #107
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    Strava doesn't auto-create segments anymore. Also, it used to let anyone edit the segments you created - that was a nice feature. Now you have trail names misspelled or given dumb, non-descriptive names like - "Sprint intervals" and "show up to blow up" that can't be fixed... I digress, sorry.. back to the discussion.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    A couple hundred containers is not that big for a pot operation....it was really pretty small to be honest...
    but that's besides the point - LEO Rangers agree that the user traffic keeps the illicit behavior to a minimum....
    * appreciate the compliment on my lil' ripper
    Sure. Dissuades illicit use vs eliminates it.

    I've been trying to get a friend's kid hooked on bikes, no lil rippers with my genetics.
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    Strava doesn't auto-create segments anymore. Also, it used to let anyone edit the segments you created - that was a nice feature. Now you have trail names misspelled or given dumb, non-descriptive names like - "Sprint intervals" and "show up to blow up" that can't be fixed... I digress, sorry.. back to the discussion.
    I think it might be new, but you can create a private segment and figure out your best time. I have one called scaring the neighbors. It shows that I've gotten slower. :\
    "My opinions are often more offensive than my *******." - Twindaddy

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menso View Post
    Stop your whining!
    I see this and other sharing/logging sites as an eventual positive. The authorities already know the locations of the vast majority of these so-called hidden trails. What Strava and other sites do is quantify the astounding amount of "illegal" riding that occurs as a result of there not being adequate opportunities for fun riding that has been made "legal" by the authorities. I put quotes around those terms because of the ridiculousness of riding a bicycle on remote dirt dirt trails being something needing such regulation.
    and that may make sense, assuming the land managers cared about your needs. what they care about is the near extinct dingleberries from the butt of an aardvark that allows a very rare mushroom to grow and feed a population of ants that feed .... well, you get the idea. you mean less to them the the dingleberry of an aardvark.

    so once upon a time a land manager had to go out and find a trail, and on occasion find someone on it, and tell them to scram. now that the trail is public, many more people are aware and ride the trail and he can keep track of the traffic without getting his butt off his office chair parked in front of his computer. evidence to call in rangers/police to offer the trespassers an opportunity to have some face time with the local judge.

    that is the problem.

    here is another: stravatization. stravidiots sanitze trails to make them faster. the price to be kom for an hour. corners are cut/bypassed, rocks taken out, roots covered over, etc.

    not only are we losing trails, but what we still have has gone from challenging to maybe i should buy a 29er.
    Last edited by jSatch; 02-18-2013 at 11:44 PM.

  11. #111
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    ^^ Snap/zing/bingo/yuuup.
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  12. #112
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    So what happens when 80% of the trails in your town are illegal? Who cares? The rangers already know about the trails anyway.

  13. #113
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    ^^^^
    documenting proof of high trail traffic will give just cause for posting cameras and/or an officer that will have you involuntarily contributing to the local economy.
    Last edited by jSatch; 02-18-2013 at 09:15 PM.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by jSatch View Post
    you mean less to them the the dingleberry of an aardvark.
    We mean no more and no less to them. What has a meaning is doing as little as possible and causing as little noise as possible.

    Where we lose is that aadwark ass lovers do create a lot of noise, file lawsuits, attend meetings and have an added benefit is that their agenda is compatible with doing less.

    Our only option is causing more noise and proving that not caring about our needs would ultimately make them do more work.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    We mean no more and no less to them. What has a meaning is doing as little as possible and causing as little noise as possible.

    Where we lose is that aadwark ass lovers do create a lot of noise, file lawsuits, attend meetings and have an added benefit is that their agenda is compatible with doing less.

    Our only option is causing more noise and proving that not caring about our needs would ultimately make them do more work.
    good luck with that.

    we've been on that path here for years. money buys power and the enviros not only have that market cornered, but they have the sympathy of the populace and politicos. you are i are just aardvark hating dirtbags in their eyes. we've literally had hundreds of bikers show at meetings in open committee forums and get voted down by the rich horsey peeps who don't care much for mtn bikers on their trails.

    even if you do get past that, try getting trails approved. pass all regulations? okay, doable. need to cut connecting trails? wow. trails on multiple parcels. double wow, squared.

    the local gov't here is not mtn bike friendly, to say the least. if you can show your gov't officials that trails can bring in needed income, and have a negligible impact on the environ, and get approval, you sir are in luck!

    has not been my experience thus far. in an area were we make it and ride it until it's paved or policed, strava has been a windfall for the policed and fines.


    edit- sorry guys. just realized i linked into the norcal forum. socal here. hope things are different for you guys up there. don't mean to discourage you. sitting in on meetings, etc is a long road, and not always paved with gold.
    Last edited by jSatch; 02-18-2013 at 10:29 PM.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by jSatch View Post
    good luck with that.
    Luck or not, it is the only option. As bad as it is around here, surprisingly, in the last few years amount of legal trails in my neighborhood increased, not decreased (by only a few, and much more was lost years back) - but there is some trend, and noise does count.

    Yep, it is all pathetically slow. Sucks to us.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    .. in the last few years amount of legal trails in my neighborhood increased, not decreased ..
    that's good news. hope the trend continues and moves south.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by jSatch View Post
    and that may make sense, assuming the land managers cared about your needs.
    You do not understand what I am saying. My point is that they don't care about/understand our needs, and the actual quantitative data that strava provides could be more valuable in the long run than the same handful of bike advocates giving little speeches at community meetings. Living in a place with little legal singletrack and hiding the fact that we ALL (with few exceptions) ride it anyway is the omerta of mountain biking, and doing so is acknowledging to the authorities that we agree that we shouldn't be there but we are doing it anyway. By being open about it, we are rejecting the ludicrous policies that prevent us from having any fun legal options. Riding "illegal" hiking trails in a sneaky matter perpetuates the idea that mountain bikers are devious rogues of the hills. I believe that showing that such activities are actually done by a huge, generally law-abiding population, not just a few wayward thrill seekers is the path to mainstream acceptance of mtb'ing as a legitimate and benign way to be on public land.

    I'm not advocating publicizing private trails on private lands, and turn off my Garmin when I ride on such trails.
    THE BAY AREA... WHERE IF IT'S FUN, IT'S ILLEGAL

  19. #119
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    I agree completely with this sentiment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Menso View Post
    You do not understand what I am saying. My point is that they don't care about/understand our needs, and the actual quantitative data that strava provides could be more valuable in the long run than the same handful of bike advocates giving little speeches at community meetings. Living in a place with little legal singletrack and hiding the fact that we ALL (with few exceptions) ride it anyway is the omerta of mountain biking, and doing so is acknowledging to the authorities that we agree that we shouldn't be there but we are doing it anyway. By being open about it, we are rejecting the ludicrous policies that prevent us from having any fun legal options. Riding "illegal" hiking trails in a sneaky matter perpetuates the idea that mountain bikers are devious rogues of the hills. I believe that showing that such activities are actually done by a huge, generally law-abiding population, not just a few wayward thrill seekers is the path to mainstream acceptance of mtb'ing as a legitimate and benign way to be on public land.

    I'm not advocating publicizing private trails on private lands, and turn off my Garmin when I ride on such trails.
    Although I had to look up "omerta". :-)

    I can recall very few rides where I didn't see far more cyclists than hikers or horse riders. I am very grateful for those cyclists that go to the land-use/government meetings but we are still overwhelmingly under-represented in all these silly legal matters.

    IMO, the majority of active cyclists are not a very vocal bunch & have little interest in the politics. We just want to ride. I think sites like STRAVA will help more than harm access in the long run.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menso View Post
    You do not understand what I am saying. My point is that they don't care about/understand our needs, and the actual quantitative data that strava provides could be more valuable in the long run than the same handful of bike advocates giving little speeches at community meetings. Living in a place with little legal singletrack and hiding the fact that we ALL (with few exceptions) ride it anyway is the omerta of mountain biking, and doing so is acknowledging to the authorities that we agree that we shouldn't be there but we are doing it anyway. By being open about it, we are rejecting the ludicrous policies that prevent us from having any fun legal options. Riding "illegal" hiking trails in a sneaky matter perpetuates the idea that mountain bikers are devious rogues of the hills. I believe that showing that such activities are actually done by a huge, generally law-abiding population, not just a few wayward thrill seekers is the path to mainstream acceptance of mtb'ing as a legitimate and benign way to be on public land.

    I'm not advocating publicizing private trails on private lands, and turn off my Garmin when I ride on such trails.
    I kind of agree there, I don't think Strava is a problem. In fact, maybe it is better to bring it out in the open. Having to continue riding under subterfuge is an admission that riders on these trails are in the wrong and hiding it. Even the original topic of this post is a bit sugar-coated as the OP chose to label-them in the more benign "non-sanctioned" genre rather than "illegal". In the long run, accumulated data from Strava and sites like it can be used to show some numbers and indicate that riders are out there, riders are riding, and where else are they supposed to go?

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menso View Post
    You do not understand what I am saying. My point is that they don't care about/understand our needs, and the actual quantitative data that strava provides could be more valuable in the long run than the same handful of bike advocates giving little speeches at community meetings. Living in a place with little legal singletrack and hiding the fact that we ALL (with few exceptions) ride it anyway is the omerta of mountain biking, and doing so is acknowledging to the authorities that we agree that we shouldn't be there but we are doing it anyway. By being open about it, we are rejecting the ludicrous policies that prevent us from having any fun legal options. Riding "illegal" hiking trails in a sneaky matter perpetuates the idea that mountain bikers are devious rogues of the hills. I believe that showing that such activities are actually done by a huge, generally law-abiding population, not just a few wayward thrill seekers is the path to mainstream acceptance of mtb'ing as a legitimate and benign way to be on public land.

    I'm not advocating publicizing private trails on private lands, and turn off my Garmin when I ride on such trails.

    i am a little confused.

    so, we all ride 'unsanctioned' or 'illegal' trails and 'acknowledging to the authorities that we agree that we shouldn't be there but we are doing it anyway'.

    you are essentially breaking the law, and posting it up, thus you are the rogues of the hills and will no longer be considered law-abiding in court (unless you deny it to maintain innocence). i understand that showing the authorities that we need more trails can be enlightening, but by breaking the law and posting on strava their recourse as officials of that land is not to say, 'hey, let's make that trail legal so these guys can have some fun', it is to stop the trespassers. that is their job. making it legal takes time and many hoops to jump through. stopping trespassers is usually met with fines. at least down here that has been my experience.

    a valid argument that you could introduce at committee meetings is that, as you said, there are not enough trails and we can't control all those people looking for decent places to ride. but understand, even if you eventually get the committee to side with you, you will open a can of worms with archeological, environmental and trail sustainability surveys, etc. besides, show them the data and the general committee member response is 'why should we accommodate people that have no regard for the law?' side note- we have one place down here where migrant workers were evacuated and left behind a sweet trail system. once the authorities realized people were hiking, biking and jogging there they officially shut it down. it has been a heated topic since the 2007 closure, but remains closed to this day. i've heard fines ranging from $400-1000.

    the other issue i have with strava is trail sanitizing for faster times and kom status. we have had significant problems with that. for example, we are currently trying to convince one individual that was caught in the act to cease and desist. he has every right to not listen, and that has been his response. oddly, he is a cat1 rider. i would have thought strava kom would be amateurish to him, but apparently it is not.

    as i said, we may have unique issues down here with multiple parcels, horsey riders with political pull who don't care to share their trails with bikes, psuedo-green enviro bs, etc, that i hope you guys don't up there. another poster mentioned an increase in trails. that is a very good omen, hope it continues. good luck!
    Last edited by jSatch; 02-20-2013 at 01:10 PM.

  22. #122
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    ^^ Yep. He's referring to Tunnels (if you don't mind me saying) in San Diego. Mtb-ers spent years cleaning up the area and opening up the trails, then pretty much got shut out of the trail system.

    Expecting the authorities to "come to their senses" is a little like you--and 1000 of your closest friends--speeding in your cars for years, recording it on the internet, then using it as evidence that your speeding should be condoned because it didn't cause any obvious problems.

    You're right about the fact that we have be proactive, show lots of goodwill to other user groups while riding, and advocate for legal trails (join IMBA and your local trail group). As for off-piste trails, exposure often leads to closure. **

    ** Bumper stickers available upon request.

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  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtvert View Post
    ^^ Yep. He's referring to Tunnels (if you don't mind me saying) in San Diego.
    have you been there?

  24. #124
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    Only once, a couple of years ago, and it was lots of fun! It was during a clinic by an ex-pro DHer (Julius). One of my best friends works very close to the trails and still does lunch rides there, but I've heard about tickets being handed out... We always talked about going back, but never got the chance before we moved.

    Side note: I heard Big Laguna/Noble got 10 inches of snow last night! That's one place that I'll be back to ride.
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  25. #125
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    Stop creating strava segments on non-sanctioned trails!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtvert View Post
    ^^ Yep. He's referring to Tunnels (if you don't mind me saying) in San Diego. Mtb-ers spent years cleaning up the area and opening up the trails, then pretty much got shut out of the trail system.

    Expecting the authorities to "come to their senses" is a little like you--and 1000 of your closest friends--speeding in your cars for years, recording it on the internet, then using it as evidence that your speeding should be condoned because it didn't cause any obvious problems.

    You're right about the fact that we have be proactive, show lots of goodwill to other user groups while riding, and advocate for legal trails (join IMBA and your local trail group). As for off-piste trails, exposure often leads to closure. **

    ** Bumper stickers available upon request.

    (hey, squashyo- I think I'm funnier in the new format!)

    Could not agree more. Seriously, recording the location and frequency of use of "illegal" trails will only result in heavy handed enforcement action. I can't understand how this thread deteriorated from Strava does not matter, to no one knows about it, to so what if the land managers know about it, to if I record my illegal activity it will be a benefit to everyone. How exactly can one arrive at that illogical fallacy?

    Recording illegal activity makes the individual look bad. Also because of the heavy handed tactics of the anti bike brigade it makes the group look bad. Finally it makes it hard for advocates who have dedicated much of their lives to unselfishly bring you trails to ride accomplish their goal: getting access to trails.

    Please stop deluding yourselves. Strava has not helped anything. It has made things worse. Please accept that fact. It is your choice to continue the practice of recording illegal activity. That is all you are really doing.

    Sitting at one boring meeting is more help to increasing access to trails than a lifetime of recording illegal activity.

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