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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    Internet anonymity fundamentally kills the concept of responsibly conveying information (trails/speeds/etc in this case)....

    No one would openly discuss actively 'racing' on closed trails in front of LEO Rangers....but find it perfectly acceptable to do it from behind their keyboards/smartphones en masse...

    The sheer stupidity of this short sighted behavior is mind numbing....and it's not going to stop.

    We need to find a way to shed a positive light on all this track-able info....it's possible, just not easy.
    All I know is that almost every DH run in Santa Cruz is strava'd with leaderboards featuring many recognizable names both from the local bike industry and mtbr. Make what you will of that.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    All I know is that almost every DH run in Santa Cruz is strava'd with leaderboards featuring many recognizable names both from the local bike industry and mtbr. Make what you will of that.

    Yep, maybe a website with a wall of shame

    I'll even start
    Strava Segment | Soda Springs
    Last edited by TahoeBC; 02-05-2013 at 01:51 PM.
    Go get that KOM "You Deserve" - http://www.digitalepo.com/index.php

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    All I know is that almost every DH run in Santa Cruz is strava'd with leaderboards featuring many recognizable names both from the local bike industry and mtbr. Make what you will of that.

    I know...I was shocked when I did some looking into it..

    it's embarrassing to be honest...
    Visit these 2 places to help advance trail access:
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  4. #79
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    A very simple step would be to require your name gets posted as the person who created the segment. You are not going to do this if you know a **** storm will occur and a **** storm will occur if you segment a non-sanctioned local favorite...I can guarantee that!
    Peaut butter Tuesday, if you kow what I mea!

  5. #80
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    I am just spitballing here, so it's not all going to be gold:

    Do you think that the reason every DH run in Santa Cruz is Strava'd with leader boards featuring many recognizable names from both the local bike industry and mtbr is that's because those are the people that ride those trails often?

    I'm just brainstorming...

    Edit to add follow up question: whose names were you expecting to see there? People from Indiana? Pennsylvania perhaps?

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by datenschwanz View Post
    I am just spitballing here, so it's not all going to be gold:

    Do you think that the reason every DH run in Santa Cruz is Strava'd with leader boards featuring many recognizable names from both the local bike industry and mtbr is that's because those are the people that ride those trails often?

    I'm just brainstorming...

    Edit to add follow up question: whose names were you expecting to see there? People from Indiana? Pennsylvania perhaps?
    I figured industry peeps and forum regulars would have a tad more common sense in the matter....
    Visit these 2 places to help advance trail access:
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  7. #82
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    I guess the same can be said for posting up legal rides where you exceed the posted speed limit? In which case, pretty much everyone here should take their stuff down.
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by datenschwanz View Post
    I am just spitballing here, so it's not all going to be gold:

    Do you think that the reason every DH run in Santa Cruz is Strava'd with leader boards featuring many recognizable names from both the local bike industry and mtbr is that's because those are the people that ride those trails often?

    I'm just brainstorming...
    Nice burn bro. Nice burn.

    To be honest with you, this whole issue, I'm over it. I used to care and I just don't any more. I *hope* strava doesn't lead to increased enforcement or trails being shut down, which I think it has the capability to, but this whole ship has sailed. The days of word of mouth and all that are over. If you want to build a super fun trail, I hope you have some acreage because eventually someone will find it and strava/youtube/mtbr it.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by datenschwanz View Post
    I am just spitballing here, so it's not all going to be gold:

    Do you think that the reason every DH run in Santa Cruz is Strava'd with leader boards featuring many recognizable names from both the local bike industry and mtbr is that's because those are the people that ride those trails often?

    I'm just brainstorming...

    Edit to add follow up question: whose names were you expecting to see there? People from Indiana? Pennsylvania perhaps?
    Nevermind.
    Last edited by Carl Hungus; 02-05-2013 at 02:15 PM.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeBC View Post
    For the internet racing part of it, this is illegal to do this with motor vehicles for a good reason, it dangerous. Perhaps law makers can be lobbied to make this Strava feature illegal also. I do not know what going on with the lawsuit against Strava, but I hope they lose big time.
    You sure sound like an angry fella, chill out! With or without strava there are alot of riders hitting illegal trails fast.
    I for one love strava. I love keeping track of my riding and climbing and yes am out gunning for KOMS on my local trails. If I see a hiker or another rider I will always slow down or get off if I have too that is all part of it.
    If you don't like strava don't use it.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by exocetaaron View Post
    You sure sound like an angry fella, chill out! With or without strava there are alot of riders hitting illegal trails fast.
    I for one love strava. I love keeping track of my riding and climbing and yes am out gunning for KOMS on my local trails. If I see a hiker or another rider I will always slow down or get off if I have too that is all part of it.
    If you don't like strava don't use it.
    well sure - that's not in question.

    Keeping a searchable ongoing tally of use/speed/pinpoint locations is the problem.

    I don't think anyone's arguing that strava makes for an awesome training tool...it's just providing 'ammo' for anti-mtb folks when these 'volunteer' trails are posted over and over and over and over and over...

    We need to figure out how to disarm this info and use it in our favor...
    Visit these 2 places to help advance trail access:
    http://www.sharingthepct.org/
    http://www.facebook.com/SharingThePct

  12. #87
    I just wanna go fast...
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    We need to figure out how to disarm this info and use it in our favor...
    You can see how many people have ridden daily, monthly and yearly. Prove there has been little to no environmental impact for a set duration then take that data to prove that X number of riders are already riding said trail to show that there is no negative impact caused by the crowds. Done.

  13. #88
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    The geek in me would love to have all the data be anonymously available in order to prioritize trails to legalize, MUT trails that should have chokepoints, single-use mtb trails that should have more armoring due to the traffic... big data used for the betterment of trail access and engineering rather than fighting human nature.
    "My opinions are often more offensive than my *******." - Twindaddy

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    You can see how many people have ridden daily, monthly and yearly. Prove there has been little to no environmental impact for a set duration then take that data to prove that X number of riders are already riding said trail to show that there is no negative impact caused by the crowds. Done.
    Quote Originally Posted by kattrap View Post
    The geek in me would love to have all the data be anonymously available in order to prioritize trails to legalize, MUT trails that should have chokepoints, single-use mtb trails that should have more armoring due to the traffic... big data used for the betterment of trail access and engineering rather than fighting human nature.
    bingo bango - finger meet nose.

    All the data...the months and years of traffic usage, lack of negative environmental impact, no user conflict, no biker/hiker collision, no biker on biker collisions, etc...etc... can all be used to shut down the NIMBY's and HOHA's

    Much of their argument carries little to no weight...the 'safety' and 'erosion' argument.

    Hell, if you can prove illicit activity in an area (pot farms/homeless camps/drug dealing/dumping trash) being mitigated by MTBr's riding a specific 'volunteer' trail that helps too...
    Visit these 2 places to help advance trail access:
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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    bingo bango - finger meet nose.

    All the data...the months and years of traffic usage, lack of negative environmental impact, no user conflict, no biker/hiker collision, no biker on biker collisions, etc...etc... can all be used to shut down the NIMBY's and HOHA's

    Much of their argument carries little to no weight...the 'safety' and 'erosion' argument.

    Hell, if you can prove illicit activity in an area (pot farms/homeless camps/drug dealing/dumping trash) being mitigated by MTBr's riding a specific 'volunteer' trail that helps too...
    I wonder if Strava could be convinced to pony up that data with the anonymity included. I'm pretty sure if a club or group asked, they could compile a nice sheet with all the numbers you need while keeping individuals anonymous

  16. #91
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    There need to be more legal trails, dammit.

    I have never created a segment out of an unsanctioned or illegal trail on Strava, but I can see that they have been kicking for quite some time now. For some of us, if we leave our house on a bike, even just to go and do trail work on legal trails, it's a choice between riding unsanctioned trails, trespassing, or risking life and limb on suicide roads.

    I think one of the positive aspects of this is it shows a need. Perhaps it won't be seen that way by all land managers. I don't know. I guess we'll just wait and see what happens.
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  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    bingo bango - finger meet nose.

    All the data...the months and years of traffic usage, lack of negative environmental impact, no user conflict, no biker/hiker collision, no biker on biker collisions, etc...etc... can all be used to shut down the NIMBY's and HOHA's

    Much of their argument carries little to no weight...the 'safety' and 'erosion' argument.

    Hell, if you can prove illicit activity in an area (pot farms/homeless camps/drug dealing/dumping trash) being mitigated by MTBr's riding a specific 'volunteer' trail that helps too...

    Sort of. What's publicly accessible in Strava is only a percentage of real use and gleaning data from a small data pool can give spotty results. Pulling from the backend database of all the large gps sites would be better (but probably against their privacy policies). No reported user conflicts or collisions is different than actual. And then there's the issue of one person's definition of conflict can be far from reality in either direction.

    If I'm riding or hiking a trail with obvious redwood feeder roots on the surface, there's erosion and environmental impact. You are well aware of the "habitat of species special concern" or some such designation of other trails with some major environmental issues.

    But YES - Closing off public access is the opposite of helping curb illicit activities.
    On the other hand, high use on trail might not stop off trail issues.
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    You know, just ignore my rants. I think all this blue and gray color change of mtbr has made me b1tchy.
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  18. #93
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    I like where this thread is going.

    I like Strava (when used responsibly) and it's ilk. Personally I prefer Sports-Tracker because I prefer the interface and have no need for leaderboards, but that's just me. My son races, he filters the Strava leaderboards on his race team and it gives him goals to shoot for. It works well as a training tool. And I can go out and ride some of his same trails when he's not around, so maybe when we go together I've had a chance to learn it and not be overly cautious and slow.

    This problem existed long before Strava as we all know, Strava just makes it that much easier to be an idiot. But since tech got us here, tech can get us out. Strava seems to just have 2 settings, fully private or full retard. Seems to me that creating a Facebook-like friends-only option would solve the problem pretty neatly. Sure, you'll still get d-bags that think that bragging about speed and secret trails makes them objects of worship, but as usual we can probably ridicule them into submission via public comments on the public segment posts.

    That one Strava tweak solves most of the problem, allows data sharing among friends and family, offers a way to publicly punch the clowns in the throat, and gathers data that can be used by the powers of good to legitimize MTB in all the right places.

    Like any tool, it's just a tool. It's all good until the user is also a tool.

  19. #94
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    No burn intended. Just asking who you expected to see there. The people in the industry are generally in it because they love riding bikes. They tend to be the ones that ride. Ditto for the people on this and every other local forum. If you go to the Michigan trails, I bet the people on the MTBR forum there are on the front page of the Strava listings for those trails too.

  20. #95
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    Strava is always an interesting argument and I agree and understand most points on both sides of the fence.

    For the first time I'm seeing suggestions and ideas to use this controversial website for the betterment of MTB. Its nice to see.
    -eric-

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  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by kattrap View Post
    Sort of. What's publicly accessible in Strava is only a percentage of real use and gleaning data from a small data pool can give spotty results. Pulling from the backend database of all the large gps sites would be better (but probably against their privacy policies). No reported user conflicts or collisions is different than actual. And then there's the issue of one person's definition of conflict can be far from reality in either direction.

    If I'm riding or hiking a trail with obvious redwood feeder roots on the surface, there's erosion and environmental impact. You are well aware of the "habitat of species special concern" or some such designation of other trails with some major environmental issues.

    But YES - Closing off public access is the opposite of helping curb illicit activities.
    On the other hand, high use on trail might not stop off trail issues.
    Press-Banner - Scout cleans up old Henry Cowell grow

    You know, just ignore my rants. I think all this blue and gray color change of mtbr has made me b1tchy.
    not sure what exactly you're saying.

    the link to the article you posted...I have been, and will continue to work with that Ranger and other Rangers/Scientists in keeping that specific area open to MTB's....

    They welcome the use for all the cyclists/runners/hikers/shools that go out there to enjoy that area.

    In fact, that area has been used by cyclists since 1984 when people used to dump garbage there....it's only been part of HC for around 6 years....

    I have been on perimeter walks with Rangers there, assisted in organizing replacing vandalized signs....and to point out Ranger Brennan is aware that MTB' use out there keeps the pot farms small and the homeless camping infrequent...

    They are closing off an eroded area to re-contour and reseed - then it will be opened back up (years later).

    What's funny...is that Pot bust created a really nice trail (one of my favorites) there....it's currently closed now (bummer).

    The rest of the area is open to ride as there will be no enforcement outside of the eroded section (you know where I'm talking about)


    Here's a snap of my 3 year old - he rides to the trailhead with me and noodles around back there...



    This area is a good example of riding 'volunteer' trails and having it OK with authorities.....
    Visit these 2 places to help advance trail access:
    http://www.sharingthepct.org/
    http://www.facebook.com/SharingThePct

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by datenschwanz View Post
    No burn intended. Just asking who you expected to see there. The people in the industry are generally in it because they love riding bikes. They tend to be the ones that ride. Ditto for the people on this and every other local forum. If you go to the Michigan trails, I bet the people on the MTBR forum there are on the front page of the Strava listings for those trails too.
    This forum in particular has had a policy of shutting down the open discussion of "non-sanctioned" trails for quite some time. Can any moderator explain to me the thinking behind this? Why would mtbr not want people discussing/sharing pictures/videos of non-sanctioned trails?

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    This forum in particular has had a policy of shutting down the open discussion of "non-sanctioned" trails for quite some time. Can any moderator explain to me the thinking behind this? Why would mtbr not want people discussing/sharing pictures/videos of non-sanctioned trails?
    the thinking is obvious - open discussion, posting video and locations of non-sanctioned trails bring unwanted traffic and attention.

    Also, promoting illegal activities on MTBR is a forum rule no-no.

    Now, what happens on Strava happens on Strava....I (we) have no say in that...
    Visit these 2 places to help advance trail access:
    http://www.sharingthepct.org/
    http://www.facebook.com/SharingThePct

  24. #99
    I just wanna go fast...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    This forum in particular has had a policy of shutting down the open discussion of "non-sanctioned" trails for quite some time. Can any moderator explain to me the thinking behind this? Why would mtbr not want people discussing/sharing pictures/videos of non-sanctioned trails?
    Doesn't it basically boil down to sharing illegal activity? If you can be ticketed for it, then it's illegal. A commercial website can't promote illegal activity and expect it's sponsors to continue to support it.

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    the thinking is obvious - open discussion, posting video and locations of non-sanctioned trails bring unwanted traffic and attention.

    Also, promoting illegal activities on MTBR is a forum rule no-no.

    Now, what happens on Strava happens on Strava....I (we) have no say in that...
    Exactly. So why is it done openly on Strava by those people who you would think are the most invested in this sport (the avid riders on this forum, those that work in the bike industry)?

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