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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtvert View Post
    It was strictly a poach trail in El Morro State Park. Mtb-ers called it a "historic" trail, because it pre-dated the park, but it wasn't listed on the initial map of the park for various reasons (wildlife corridor, arch site). I volunteered for the park--as well as a county park--and the rangers routinely cited online biking sites as evidence of poaching and justification of trail closures. One park in OC even closed the entire park to cyclists for a few months for poaching.
    Thanks for the reply. Like I said this is the first time I have heard anything that actually caused action in the real world because of strava(or any gps/map/timer software). I realize because of the nature of poaching we cant be terribly specific, but usually complaints about strava sound like people are jumping to conclusions with nothing tangible.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rensho View Post
    Yep, it is your duty to go into your Strava account and make private all the illegal segments you created, or have ridden. Also, flag to Strava any segments that are illegal.

    I have heard too many times that land managers are wondering how they received this gift that has fallen from the sky...
    Quote Originally Posted by derekbob View Post
    This is the first time I have heard anything specific when complaining about strava(with respect to trail access). I think the golden rule for strava haters is be as vague as possible because there is no evidence that strava has had a real impact on trail access. If I'm wrong here please let me know (with some specific examples)

    With this particular trail: I presume it was hiker only and was being poached by bikers who were using some prestrava software which alerted the land managers to the problem so they closed the trail for everyone?
    Quote Originally Posted by derekbob View Post
    If you dont mind me asking:

    Which trails were shut down because of strava?

    What do you think should be done about it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    While I completely agree with the general premise of this thread... I have discovered a number of great trails by going over mtbguru when it was still functioning and Strava. I do not have other means to find out as I usually do not have time to hook up with the right people to show me.. Maybe some less public way of sharing some gpx tracks would be useful to me..
    Well the best way to find trails is to go out and ride trails a lot. Bring a map. Have a sense of adventure. Push you bike around. It is kind of fun.

    Another way is to know some local people. Show up at a trail day. Talk with these guys and offer up beers.

    Pimping out data to maximize your ride with the aid of atomic clocks floating in outer space? Seems kind of over complicated and super well not a nice word to me.

    I can offer up a mountain biker socialization class. It will be like kindergarten but with cooler toys: share, be nice don't spit on Johnny etc.

    The first lesson will be to read this email. Read it and weep Strava users.



    On Jun 26, 2012, at 11:55 AM, XXXXX wrote:


    HI XXXX, XXXX, XXXX

    Strava just came to our attention, through members of the environmental community. This is very disturbing and will surely have an adverse impact on any new trail development. Do you have any thoughts about how to approach this?

    XXXXX



    XXXXX
    XXXXX(job title)

    Marin County Parks
    3501 Civic Center Drive, Suite 260
    San Rafael, CA 94903
    415 473 7010 T
    415 473 3795 F
    XXXXX@marincounty.org

    From:XXXXXX
    Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 11:43 AM
    To: XXXXX
    Cc: XXXXX
    Subject: FW: Strava

    See below. Looks like some of our trails are on Strava.



    XXXXXX
    XXXXX(job title)

    Marin County Parks
    3501 Civic Center Drive, Suite 260
    San Rafael, CA 94903
    415 473 6391 T
    415 944 0552 M
    415 473 3795 F
    XXXXX@marincounty.org
    Marin County Parks

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    I have so much vitriolic hatred for Strava but I'm keeping it on the down low. I will be a nice positive person about it but please don't pretend you are helping by mapping illegal trails and placing it on public domain. Even worse logging illegal activity on a public domain. Making all of your Strava segments that contain any of these things private should be a top priority for Strava users. I've never registered or owned an electronic doo dad for my bike. So I'm not even being hypocritical.

    If you do that then I will be friends with you and show you some sweet trails

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeBC View Post
    What a load of crap
    Not a load of crap. Strava isn't the problem, educating people to keep certain trails on the down low is.

    I could go out and map my ride with a gps and then upload it to google maps and share it publicly to anyone.

    I could use any number of other apps to map an illegal ride as well (runkeeper, google tracks, etc.)

    I could write a trail review on my blog, with directions on how to get there and pictures of sections so people know what to expect and post a link.

    I could go on mtbr.com and provide trail locations and pictures.

    We don't blame those other apps or mtbr or the internet or gps manufacturers.

    What stops me from doing all those things? Education from my fellow riders that it's not a socially acceptable thing to do.

    In the mean time if you want segments removed from strava, just flag them as hazardous. It only takes one person to do it and it'll get taken down.

  4. #29
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    This is a great thread. I have two examples to share:

    1. The head of Marin Open Space has actually said she uses Strava to monitor illicit activity. She also stated that it is proof that we are blatant poachers. This comes at a time that we are asking for increased access. Uhuh.

    2. We recently encountered "Mary the Hammer", one of the worst examples of idiots that segment poaches. We asked her why she does it and she said, "who cares, I'm leaving the country anyway". Nice.

    I've tried to have a dialogue with Strava too and gotten nowhere. I'd love it if this community could come up with a way to get through to them.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post

    In the mean time if you want segments removed from strava, just flag them as hazardous. It only takes one person to do it and it'll get taken down.
    I'm pretty sure it isn't this simple. In order to flag something as hazardous you first have to personally upload it as a segment you have done. So...this won't work.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by vernonator View Post
    She also stated that it is proof that we are blatant poachers. This comes at a time that we are asking for increased access.
    Their utter lack of logical thinking never cease to amaze me. Yes, blatant poaching is a clear sign the we actually do need more access. Not the other way around.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by vernonator View Post
    This is a great thread. I have two examples to share:

    1. The head of Marin Open Space has actually said she uses Strava to monitor illicit activity. She also stated that it is proof that we are blatant poachers. This comes at a time that we are asking for increased access. Uhuh.

    2. We recently encountered "Mary the Hammer", one of the worst examples of idiots that segment poaches. We asked her why she does it and she said, "who cares, I'm leaving the country anyway". Nice.

    I've tried to have a dialogue with Strava too and gotten nowhere. I'd love it if this community could come up with a way to get through to them.
    1. Here is an example of someone that uses keywords and Google to keep tabs on mtn bikers.
    Stop breaking the law and please stop posting evidence you are breaking the law.
    Also, think about using "Craigslist Speak" 6-8-0 trail.
    Don't use first and last names of the anti-mtn bikers. It's like bread crumbs to the hot topics.
    Injured cyclist helicoptered to John Muir Medical Center - Marin Independent Journal

    2. In the off-road community, we have some knuckleheads that say, "What does it matter, this will all be closed down in a couple of years, so I'll do what the hell I want." Typically, these are the people that get areas shut down with bad behavior. Then they said, "I told you so." I"m at the point, I'd turn in a real selfish and destructive ahole to Mr Ranger.

  8. #33
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    If you go for a ride in the forest and no one can tell you were there, you still get to smile.

  9. #34
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    From what I understand Marin has had issues with trail access long before strava. I never said land manager were oblivious to strava, I'm thinking they are limited in what they can do about it. They can shoot emails back and fourth and mention it while remaining vague at meetings. Can they increase ranger patrols on illegal trails? Are they going to spend money to react to strava? In Marin they just might, but they probably don't need to.

  10. #35
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    I agree that if you're gonna ride less than legal trails, keep it to yourself. I don't agree that Strava is the source of this issue. The users not using Strava responsibly are the source.

    I'm not sure what all the Strava hate is about. I like Strava. I use it to keep tabs on my level of (lack of) fitness, and as a tool to push myself... mostly on how fast I can climb a tough section like Bishop's Walk or the paved climb at China Camp on the singlespeed.

  11. #36
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    BTW, it's pretty easy to find out names if you leave the phone numbers in your post. Other than that, bike haters are looking for reasons not to give access. Poaching has been going on in Marin for about 30 years, pre Strava, pre GPS, pre full suspension bike, etc. Poaching will keep going on for as long as decent legal access doesn't exist.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Their utter lack of logical thinking never cease to amaze me. Yes, blatant poaching is a clear sign the we actually do need more access. Not the other way around.
    this.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    While I completely agree with the general premise of this thread... I have discovered a number of great trails by going over mtbguru when it was still functioning and Strava. I do not have other means to find out as I usually do not have time to hook up with the right people to show me.. Maybe some less public way of sharing some gpx tracks would be useful to me..
    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    I agree that if you're gonna ride less than legal trails, keep it to yourself. I don't agree that Strava is the source of this issue. The users not using Strava responsibly are the source.

    I'm not sure what all the Strava hate is about. I like Strava. I use it to keep tabs on my level of (lack of) fitness, and as a tool to push myself... mostly on how fast I can climb a tough section like Bishop's Walk or the paved climb at China Camp on the singlespeed.
    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    BTW, it's pretty easy to find out names if you leave the phone numbers in your post. Other than that, bike haters are looking for reasons not to give access. Poaching has been going on in Marin for about 30 years, pre Strava, pre GPS, pre full suspension bike, etc. Poaching will keep going on for as long as decent legal access doesn't exist.
    I believe that the tread title was Stop Creating Strava Segments Non Sanctioned Trails. So please for the love of god stop doing that.

    Weather or not Strava existed before or after poaching existed is irrelevant. If the app was called DORKFACE we would ask you to stop DORKFACING the trails you are not supposed to know about or ride.

    Strava isn't wrong. It is fine as long as you don't record yourself doing something illegal. If you don't record yourself doing something illegal than no one has a public record of it happening.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    From:XXXXXX
    Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 11:43 AM
    To: XXXXX
    Cc: XXXXX
    Subject: FW: Strava

    See below. Looks like some of our trails are on Strava.

    XXXXXX
    XXXXX(job title)

    Marin County Parks
    3501 Civic Center Drive, Suite 260
    San Rafael, CA 94903
    415 473 6391 T
    415 944 0552 M
    415 473 3795 F
    XXXXX@marincounty.org
    Marin County Parks
    ^There's the key phrase: "our trails"... which is the mindset of trail users that simply don't want to share public resources with mt. bikers. These are the hikers and equestrians that will use any and all means to get in the ear of land managers to keep "their trails" illegal for bikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Their utter lack of logical thinking never cease to amaze me. Yes, blatant poaching is a clear sign the we actually do need more access. Not the other way around.
    ^Ditto.

    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    ... bike haters are looking for reasons not to give access. Poaching has been going on in Marin for about 30 years, pre Strava, pre GPS, pre full suspension bike, etc. Poaching will keep going on for as long as decent legal access doesn't exist.
    ^Yes.

    As far as officially recognized trails go, Strava is not the problem. Trails weren't being opened to mt. bikes before Strava. Decriminalize mt. biking and the poaching issue becomes a non-issue.

    As far as "secret" trails go, I agree with the OP 100%. It only takes a couple of short sighted people and an internet connection to expose someone's hard work.

    I also venture to say that fewer XC oriented trails would be illegally built if bikers were allowed on existing hiking/horse trails that are already XC oriented. Jump/stunt trails are a different matter... but they've been getting built since the rise of BMX in the 70's... they've just gotten more sophisticated and bold.
    Last edited by Empty_Beer; 02-04-2013 at 03:05 PM.

  15. #40
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    I agree that it's not a good idea, but I certainly don't agree that leaving a public trace of poaching is what's stopping legal access. That's a non sequitur.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekbob View Post
    They can shoot emails back and fourth and mention it while remaining vague at meetings. Can they increase ranger patrols on illegal trails? Are they going to spend money to react to strava? In Marin they just might, but they probably don't need to.
    I wish this were true, but MMWD has the Marin County Sheriff on contract to patrol their lands on a regular basis. There has been a definite increase in patrols (vehicle and by foot) over the last year. I'm not saying that strava is the reason for this, but they're definitely using the data to their advantage. They're regularly patrolling the trails above the lakes. If you're ride over there often enough, you'll run into a sheriff or one of their parked trucks.


    What is more harmful to the water supply?

    Happy mountain bikers riding on singletrack

    or

    Large scale marijuana grows and all that great fertilizer, pesticide, and animal poison that ends up in in the groundwater?

  17. #42
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    That may be what bdam is saying. Not that the "one" user who created "the" segment in question would do so. Plus sometimes there are more then one name for same segment which adds to the equation in completely removing it.
    Wait,who did he tell you that?....

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    If you don't record yourself doing something illegal than no one has a public record of it happening.
    Tire tracks on a trail could be considered evidence of illegal activity happening.

    It just blows my mind that riding a bicycle on trails carved into Earth by man is a crime.

  19. #44
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    So has everyone given up on trying to get the rules changed and/or permission to build new trails?

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Czar Chasm View Post
    So has everyone given up on trying to get the rules changed and/or permission to build new trails?
    I'm thinking this thread is way off target. how many of us have created segments on strava for off limits trails? I'm thinking very few.

    I'd like to see an anonymous poll asking how many of us have created illegal trail segments on strava. Before we see the results, threads like this are just so much bluster.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    Tire tracks on a trail could be considered evidence of illegal activity happening.

    It just blows my mind that riding a bicycle on trails carved into Earth by man is a crime.
    could not agree more - 100% completely and totally ridiculous that any user thinks their way to recreate (in an environmentally and responsible fashion) is the only way.

    Unfortunately, as you are keenly aware, there is a highly vocal/shrill/maniacal group of (mostly) aging NIMBY's who desperately cling to the notion that nature is only to be traversed their way, or through a coffee table book.

    This ideological fallacy is coming to an end as an aging user group dies and a newer generation comes into play....a generation that knows the benefits of opening up the outdoors to share, enjoy and get healthy...

    The harder authorities try to come down the more resistance will be met - we are not a buncha teenage coffee shop workers....we are professional adults raising families who are making time to get organized and project a collective voice.

    Riding unsanctioned trails (responsibly/courteously), combined with the efforts of advocacy groups to legally gain more access is the way to go IMO - there is no way the old guard will ever budge if it is a single pronged approach....and their threats of taking away more access is old and tired..

    They have already taken too much, and given back virtually nothing....we have nothing to lose.


    yah, it's Monday and I'm ornery
    Visit these 2 places to help advance trail access:
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  22. #47
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    I have nothing constructive to add here.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    They have already taken too much, and given back virtually nothing....we have nothing to lose.
    On a side note - Julien from BAAR alerted me today (Anybody up for a little adventure?) that some lands north of the bay are actively applying for a permanent bike ban. WTF is that sh.t. (I do not yet know details of where, as it will be part of an adventure training route.)

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    could not agree more - 100% completely and totally ridiculous that any user thinks their way to recreate (in an environmentally and responsible fashion) is the only way.

    Unfortunately, as you are keenly aware, there is a highly vocal/shrill/maniacal group of (mostly) aging NIMBY's who desperately cling to the notion that nature is only to be traversed their way, or through a coffee table book.

    This ideological fallacy is coming to an end as an aging user group dies and a newer generation comes into play....a generation that knows the benefits of opening up the outdoors to share, enjoy and get healthy...

    The harder authorities try to come down the more resistance will be met - we are not a buncha teenage coffee shop workers....we are professional adults raising families who are making time to get organized and project a collective voice.

    Riding unsanctioned trails (responsibly/courteously), combined with the efforts of advocacy groups to legally gain more access is the way to go IMO - there is no way the old guard will ever budge if it is a single pronged approach....and their threats of taking away more access is old and tired..

    They have already taken too much, and given back virtually nothing....we have nothing to lose.


    yah, it's Monday and I'm ornery
    I ran into a crazy old man at Shell Ridge the other day while waiting for a friend to show up. He starting ranting about how the ranger hates us and etc. He finally shut up when I told him I'm raising all my kids as mountain bikers. He understand at that point that his days were numbered. He mentioned something about it being a good sport and walked away.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

    Specialized sucks dong

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    I'm thinking this thread is way off target. how many of us have created segments on strava for off limits trails? I'm thinking very few.

    I'd like to see an anonymous poll asking how many of us have created illegal trail segments on strava. Before we see the results, threads like this are just so much bluster.
    All I know is that it just happened this weekend and it pisses me off. I took a shot at posting here in the small hope that whoever did it sees this and comes to their senses. You're probably right though...a very small percentage is the most likely scenario but a scenario none-the-less.
    Peaut butter Tuesday, if you kow what I mea!

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