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  1. #1
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    Sierra Tahoe 100

    Just looked at the website, is this new??


    Please help us support MTB riding on an already multi-use trail system. The TS100 looks like it may be canceled this week do to the problems with the Tevis Cup Board. This has been a on going battle with the Tevis Cup Endurance Horse Event over the last 6 years. The trail system is 100% multi use from Lyon Ridge to Foresthill, Ca.


    Sounds like the 100 miler is to be Cancelled . That would suck its such a great race.

  2. #2
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    Sierra Tahoe 100

    That little update just went up a day or so ago.

    I am signed up for the 100. Was looking forward to it again as it's one of my favorites.
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  3. #3
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    Jimmy's page is down right now. I can't get on it at all.

    http://www.globalbiorhythmevents.com/
    Its all Shits and Giggles until somebody Giggles and Shits

  4. #4
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    Hopefully we will have a decision either way when its back up

  5. #5
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    I want to know how to sue the Tevis Cup Board.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by 209er View Post
    I want to know how to sue the Tevis Cup Board.
    I don't understand how 1 arbitrary group controls public dirt...

  7. #7
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    Sierra Tahoe 100

    Lots of people on this Tevis Cup board



    http://www.teviscup.org/about-us/the...and-committees
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  8. #8
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    Sierra Tahoe 100

    Quote Originally Posted by 209er View Post
    I want to know how to sue the Tevis Cup Board.
    Easy there.
    Lets get our facts straight and find out what's going on before we jump to conclusions here.
    Its all Shits and Giggles until somebody Giggles and Shits

  9. #9
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    It's a sad day

    Email just went out:

    "Due to the ongoing, anti-bike efforts of the Tevis group (equestrians), we regret to inform you that the 2013 Tahoe-Sierra 100 has been cancelled. Back in early June, GBE, Inc. was told the permit for the Tahoe National Forest portion of the race would be issued, as we adequately addressed safety concerns raised by the Western States Safe Trail Alliance (WSSTA) with the USFS. As of today GBE, Inc. still does not have the USFS permit in-hand. The WSSTA, formed by as small group of Tevis Board/committee members, Bob and Judy Suter, as well as by Jaede Milsoslavich of Park Watch Report, appears to have been created to rid the historically multi-use Western States Trail of motorcycles and mountain bikes, and they continue to try and find ways to impact or stop our event. They continue to claim that there are safety issues with the TS100. In six years, we have never had a safety issue. At this point in time, GBE Inc. has decided to pull the event and regroup for 2014. We are still planning to hold the 28 mile race from Foresthill to Auburn, as that is under our Auburn State Recreation Area permit. All 100 mile racers will receive a 100% refund. Refunds will be mailed out in the weeks to come. We are very sorry for the inconvenience.

    Thank you,

    GBE, Inc."


    Note that this is not a USFS thing. They support the event and weren't going to hold back the permit. The faction of equestrians (a group that many equestrians don't approve of) succeeded in creating enough hurdles for Jim and the USFS to deal with, which affected many things... including registration.

    While I'm pissed off beyond belief, this will only serve as motiviation to get future TS100's the same treatment as the Western States 100 and the Tevis Cup. And if TS100 is going to be held to a higher standard of safety, then those other events will need to as well. Last I checked, no athlete has died during a TS100. Game on.

    If you registered for the 100, you can still do the shorter Foresthill to Auburn race, and I'm sure Jim would appreciate your business, as he's already out a good deal of money from cancelling the 100. It'll be a fun course to hit with fresh legs. A discount code should be available/active soon.

  10. #10
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    Terrible news.

    This means war. There should never be another Tevis Cup that goes unchallenged. The equestrians are throwing stones from their glass house.


    Sofa king pi$$ed right now.
    Its all Shits and Giggles until somebody Giggles and Shits

  11. #11
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    Ridiculous.

    http://www.teviscup.org/about-us/the...and-committees

    Their board meetings are held quarterly in Auburn--and are open to the public (which includes us).

    And Tevis appears to have plenty of their own safety issues. Turnabout is fair play.
    Last edited by dirtvert; 07-31-2013 at 08:17 PM.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    The equestrians are throwing stones from their glass house.
    I couldn't agree more. They have everything to lose. The many, many reasonable, rational and friendly equestrians need to reel these cowboys and cowgirls in before it really gets ugly.

  13. #13
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    Sierra Tahoe 100

    Sucks...sorry to hear that, guys. I passed the 2 GBE vehicles on the way down 80 on Sun, and I was wondering the status of this event. So frustrating.

    -D

  14. #14
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    Those few anti bikes idiots are really not bright. Usually, this ends with everybody losing.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  15. #15
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    Sierra Tahoe 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    I couldn't agree more. They have everything to lose. The many, many reasonable, rational and friendly equestrians need to reel these cowboys and cowgirls in before it really gets ugly.
    Well. Lets get on it. I'm 100% in to bring the the pain.

    Lets go to war. No mercy. No prisoners. Lets go big and stamp them out of existence.

    Remember we have nothing to lose!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davey Simon View Post
    Well. Lets get on it. I'm 100% in to bring the the pain.

    Lets go to war. No mercy. No prisoners. Lets go big and stamp them out of existence.

    Remember we have nothing to lose!

    ^^ This man speaks the truth!!! We get steamrolled and bad mouthed all over the place, a race getting kicked of multiuse trails is a real low, really seems like they don't want to share the trails at all? Mtbers bend over backwards to make up for the irresponsible few who give us a bad name, why can't equestrians do the same? Instead, they just wait for the trails to be only for them and their poo machines that cause more trail damage than bikes.

    I'm starting to believe more and more that separate but equal trails is the only way to go....sad we all can't just get along like most other places in the country/world when it comes to trail access....

  17. #17
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    Sierra Tahoe 100

    Quote Originally Posted by IrieRider View Post
    ^^ This man speaks the truth!!! We get steamrolled and bad mouthed all over the place, a race getting kicked of multiuse trails is a real low, really seems like they don't want to share the trails at all? Mtbers bend over backwards to make up for the irresponsible few who give us a bad name, why can't equestrians do the same? Instead, they just wait for the trails to be only for them and their poo machines that cause more trail damage than bikes.

    I'm starting to believe more and more that separate but equal trails is the only way to go....sad we all can't just get along like most other places in the country/world when it comes to trail access....
    We need to push back hard right now. This way when the dust settles and land managers create bike / horse / dog walker / hike trails we will get a decent piece of the pie.

    With all the conflict being created by less than 5% of trail users surely land mangers will choose to create user specific trails. Multi use is dead thanks to the equestrian brigade. We should be on the warpath. Exposing lies and half truths. Exposing illegal cosy nonprofit exclusive use of public space all the while actively being engaged in politics. There is literally nothing for us to lose and everything for the equestrians to lose. They started this and we should end it.

  18. #18
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    Sierra Tahoe 100

    Agreed.

    So pissed off.
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  19. #19
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    I have been training like a race horse all year just to finish the TS100 and now the rug gets pulled from underneath us. I agree - Game on. Let's stop the Tevis Cup. Revenge will be sweet and deserved by those bastards. When we stop seeing red, let's remind ourselves to keep our eyes on the prize and the vision that there will be an enduring Western States 100 for mountain bikes not just for ourselves but for others that follow us. That vision is what has been and will keep motivating me.

  20. #20
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    For anyone interested, some of their board and members are riders in the Tahoe rim ride coming up on the 10th. You can compare the two lists on their respective websites. Maybe it would be a good time to plan a critical mass type event and show our power. With the single track segments, it would be rather easy to impact their ride.

  21. #21
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    The Achilles heel of the equestrians is trail-erosion. Horses are just plain hard on trails. We need to put together a team to document trail erosion during horse events. That plus the animal welfare people will be what it takes to get their permits pulled.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 209er View Post
    I have been training like a race horse all year just to finish the TS100 and now the rug gets pulled from underneath us.
    I feel really bad for everybody that was signed up and prepping for this race.
    When I did it in 2010, I worked my ass off for months to get ready. Total lifestyle change. To not get to do the race would have crushed me.
    Its all Shits and Giggles until somebody Giggles and Shits

  23. #23
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    @Overthehillthruthewoods: Bingo! Time for little civil disobedience!

    (not that we can't ride those trails legally)
    Friends don't let friends ride e-"bikes" on dirt.

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  24. #24
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    wow. Although I wantedbutcouldnt compete this year, I had friends that literally trained ALL year and part of LAST year for this to be their peak event.

    Heart goes out to everyone that worked their ass off on the bike hoping to race this.

    I can't imagine how Jim is coping with this. Sucks!

  25. #25
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    Pretty messed up !! One of the most challenging fun races for sure. Hopefully next year we will have the race back. Now what do do instead ?? Maybe a loop around lake Tahoe Is that even possible ??

  26. #26
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    Pissed doesn't begin to cover how I feel about the TS 100 cancellation this year. As a veteran of the race I understand all those out there who have trained months in preparation for this, their "A" race of 2013....feel for all of you.

    I've been stewing about how best to handle this situation. One problem stems from the fact the MTB community is disjointed and not very well organized. I understand that and really all we want to do is simply go out and ride and/or race in peace. Most of us follow the rules and try to self police those who don't. That said, the last thing I believe we should do is simply let this pass without the opportunity to have our side heard at various levels and through various means.

    Auburn bills itself as "The Endurance Capitol of the World." That slogan is not only a sense of local pride but an economic generator. With the cancellation of the TS-100, how many hotel rooms, campsites, meals, gas fill-ups, grocery store visits cancel along with the race? Although the Auburn Journal does not have a wide reach the local politicians read it and I intend to contact them this morning to press for a story about this....about the fringe horse element that led to this injustice. I also intend to email various local politicians and expose the unfairness and economic impact of all of this.

    Lastly, I don't condone critical mass blockages of horse events as it will simply make us look bad in the end although I'm not opposed to showing up with signs to the next Tevis board meeting, or conducting an informational picket at horse events, show up at their event permit hearings...embarrass the fringe ba$tards...call them out....run them out of town so to speak. I also wonder what the Humane Society thinks of Tevis....it is hard on the animals, some die...hmmmmm

    The gloves need to come off but in a diplomatic, non-emotional, professional but well represented way. Who else wants to call local media, the Placer County/Auburn political establishment, land managers, etc????? It may take a lot of us to turn this but we can't let this opportunity pass!

    Thanks, Tom Strause

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    @Overthehillthruthewoods & dirtvert:

    During a recent Ultra on the TRT, there were several reported MB/Runner collisions in the same section of trail you want to plan a demonstration. A demonstration at this event where unpredictable animals are involved might end up spooking a horse and could result in injured animals and riders of both bikes and horses.

    Collisions or injuries resulting from a demonstration would hamper the ultimate goal.

    TAMBA has worked hard to gain additional access to TRT trails for MB'rs and has a pending proposal to open up several more miles on the TRT to bikes. A demonstration as you mention would surely place the proposal in jeopardy.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikeTheRim View Post
    @Overthehillthruthewoods & dirtvert:

    During a recent Ultra on the TRT, there were several reported MB/Runner collisions in the same section of trail you want to plan a demonstration. A demonstration at this event where unpredictable animals are involved might end up spooking a horse and could result in injured animals and riders of both bikes and horses.

    Collisions or injuries resulting from a demonstration would hamper the ultimate goal.

    TAMBA has worked hard to gain additional access to TRT trails for MB'rs and has a pending proposal to open up several more miles on the TRT to bikes. A demonstration as you mention would surely place the proposal in jeopardy.
    What he (or she) said.....messing with the TRT event would not be an effective way to go about things IMO.
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  29. #29
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  30. #30
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    Awesome post MTBNE1. [Check your PM box for a message from me. ]

    You are right of course. I've been saying for years now that the MTB community needs to start twisting the arm of the Auburn political system to get the SRA management in line with better bike access.

    I spent some time in Bend this summer. Bend, like Auburn has a large riding area right at the edge of town. The trail density per acre is probably 5 times what we have in the SRA. The trails are well maintained, with lots of variety, some features, good markings and there's something for everyone. There are lots of people up there riding and having fun. As a result Bend has full hotels, a vibrant downtown district with bars, restaurants, brew pubs, and all sorts of tourist stores open and thriving (and staying open past 6pm). Its super cool to sit having dinner at a sidewalk restaurant on a warm summer evening, in with a full bike rack at the curb, and see a husband and wife pedaling to dinner on a restored Schwinn tandem with kids following on their own bikes.

    Auburn could be Bend. All the vacant commercial space in town could be filled. We could have more than 1 decent motel. Restaurants could be open and full late into the evening and the stores next to the restaurant could be open for after dinner shopping. Entry level jobs would sit vacant for lack of applicants, business opportunities for entrepreneurs would abound. Tax revenue could flow with out of town dollars.

    All that has to happen is for it to become a priority for our local leadership.

    Letting the TS-100 die is a step in the WRONG direction. Catering to a handful of old men nursing a Marlboro Man fantasy, and few women who have found a vibrator they can use in public and don't have to hide from their Minister is getting this city nowhere.



    Quote Originally Posted by mtbne1 View Post
    Pissed doesn't begin to cover how I feel about the TS 100 cancellation this year. As a veteran of the race I understand all those out there who have trained months in preparation for this, their "A" race of 2013....feel for all of you.

    I've been stewing about how best to handle this situation. One problem stems from the fact the MTB community is disjointed and not very well organized. I understand that and really all we want to do is simply go out and ride and/or race in peace. Most of us follow the rules and try to self police those who don't. That said, the last thing I believe we should do is simply let this pass without the opportunity to have our side heard at various levels and through various means.

    Auburn bills itself as "The Endurance Capitol of the World." That slogan is not only a sense of local pride but an economic generator. With the cancellation of the TS-100, how many hotel rooms, campsites, meals, gas fill-ups, grocery store visits cancel along with the race? Although the Auburn Journal does not have a wide reach the local politicians read it and I intend to contact them this morning to press for a story about this....about the fringe horse element that led to this injustice. I also intend to email various local politicians and expose the unfairness and economic impact of all of this.

    Lastly, I don't condone critical mass blockages of horse events as it will simply make us look bad in the end although I'm not opposed to showing up with signs to the next Tevis board meeting, or conducting an informational picket at horse events, show up at their event permit hearings...embarrass the fringe ba$tards...call them out....run them out of town so to speak. I also wonder what the Humane Society thinks of Tevis....it is hard on the animals, some die...hmmmmm

    The gloves need to come off but in a diplomatic, non-emotional, professional but well represented way. Who else wants to call local media, the Placer County/Auburn political establishment, land managers, etc????? It may take a lot of us to turn this but we can't let this opportunity pass!

    Thanks, Tom Strause

  31. #31
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    Observations and rhetoric from all viewpoints and levels of education are the reason I lurk on this forum. Like most things today, money is in control. Goodbye.

  32. #32
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    I was signed up for the Tahoe 100 and have been training since November for this ride so I am obviously unhappy with the ride being cancelled. I've done the Western Run, the Tevis 100 ride and was looking forward to this. I am also a previous member of the board of goveners of Tevis.

    Two things to consider before you make any decisions or comments:

    Both the Tevis Ride and the Western States run took no position about the Tahoe Sierra ride. The TS100 ride is unable to provide any correspondence form the Tevis organization opposing this ride. There may be members of Tevis as individuals who opposed the ride but Tevis did not. The post by the TS100 was inaccurate and is a diservice to the entire endurance community.
    My understanding is that this was a decision based on economics. The TS100 is a profit making enterprise and this ride did not have enough registrations to be profitable.
    I would encourage you not to take my word for this but do research. Find any correspondence from the Tevis organization opposing this ride and post it if you can. Ask Jim how many registrants he had on this ride and do your own basic math to see if there was any way to make a profit.
    The endurance community has to stick together. There are groups opposing all organized events and there are members of each of the endurance communities for whatever reason fight the others. We stick together as a family or our trails will be taken away.
    My favorite solution for technical trails is same trails, different days. This prevents conflict, allows all members of the various endurance communities to enjoy our amazing trail system and allows the entire endurance community to put their energies where they belong, in the care, maintenance, creation and enjoymnet of our trails systems.
    Mark Engemann

  33. #33
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    I think we should hit 2014 Tevis with data. There have been many many many horse related accidents on the trail and the events through the years. Notice how well the accidents are covered up and removed.
    If they closed TS100 via concerns over safety, then it cannot be refuted that their safety record is much much worse on the WS trail.

    The last year of Tevis.

    I'll start:
    Horseback rider falls off Western States trail | Auburn Journal

  34. #34
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    Thanks, Mark and you bring up a good point in doing the necessary research to understand why this iteration of the TS 100 decision occurred. The prior permit fiasco of months past apparently had some element of the horse community as a root cause but as you point out that may not be 100% accurate this time. I'd like to hear from Northey and will reach out to him separately......

  35. #35
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    Totally agree as well. Demonstrations that interfere with events will greatly undermine our cause.....

  36. #36
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    If you can find evidence of Tevis opposing the ride please post it. There are members of the equestrian community that did oppose the ride, Tevis did not. I would encourage all members of this forum to confirm any opposition prior to making any inflamatory comments.
    We are all part of the endurance family, we can destroy each other but that doesn't help us in keeping and utiliziing our trails.

  37. #37
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    This one thread is a great great read. I urge you all to spend the time and investigate further, both sides.

    Accident at Tevis '09? [Archive] - Chronicle Forums

    I archived it just in case it disappears.

    Also, I'll pursue the more recent data from AERC and horse deaths during endurance rides.

    Fatality Reports

  38. #38
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    When you have to focus all your time on defending and trying to get a permit instead of promoting an event, add to that the uncertainty if the race will occur among participant’s, yes economics come into play. And yes a small group of Equestrians “Western States Safe Trail Alliance“ are behind the effort to shut this race down and shut down the Western States to bikes all together.

    Does the Tevis Cup board support the efforts of the “Western States Safe Trail Alliance “ ?
    https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...d=317340896573

    sharing from email: Tahoe Sierra 100 Extreme Mountain Bike Race will NOT be held on the Western States (Tevis) Trail.

    >> The MB forums and promoter of the Tahoe Sierra 100 Extreme Mountain Bike Race has misstated what is really happening here. I do not pretend to understand the motivation...
    >
    > Probably to get their friends worried enough to complain.
    >
    >> The good news is that the mt. bike race is not going to take place on the historic Western States (Tevis) Trail, where the promoter wanted to have it, BUT the permit has not been denied.
    >>
    >> The Western States Safe Trail Alliance, equestrians and representatives from our local Audubon Society and the Sierra Club, met with the Forest Service and Auburn State Recreation Area to request they re-route this race off the Western States Trail, the historic path of the 100 mile one day Tevis Cup endurance ride and the Western States Run. The WSSTA stated and proved ongoing safety and erosion issues.
    >>
    >> After these meetings, the administrations of these government entities agreed with the Alliance that the mt. bike race should not be held on the WST asked the promoter of the race to re-route it off the WST.
    >>
    >> That decision was confirmed with the Forest Service and State Parks.
    >>
    >> The Forest Service did not deny the race permit, nor did the Western States Safe Trails Alliance ask for denial of permit. A re-route was requested.
    >>
    >> The Western States Safe Trail Alliance is mainly concerned with the Western States Trail. Not all trails...that one trail...hence its name. The WSSTA is asking the Forest Service to designate the Western States Trail hiker horse only. Currently, the WST is off limits to wheeled vehicles for several miles on federal and private land at the start by Squaw Valley, then through the Granite Chief Wilderness. It is limited to hiker horse again at the end through the Auburn State Recreation Area. What the Alliance is requesting is that the Forest Service also limit their center section and ban mt. bikes and motorbikes there.
    >>
    >> The Western States Trail is famously dangerous with the trail only 8 inches wide at its most narrow, and drop offs 500 feet and more.
    >
    > It makes no sense to "race" on a trail tha narrow, on a bike, horse, or on foot! You can't pass anyone!
    >
    >> It has been used for over 150 years by hikers and horses with few problems, and by the Native Americans even before that. But, with the addition of mt. bikes, these limitations became real safety issues. Last year during the Tahoe Sierra 100 Extreme Mountain Bike Race, an equestrian on the trail was injured and will be in a wheelchair for the rest of her life. In the same area, but not during the race, two other equestrians were left in walkers for months. Last week a hiker was run into by a mt. biker and ended up in the ER. These injuries are not caused by inexperienced or ignorant hikers or horses, but mt. bikers and uncontrolled speed on narrow trails with blind corners and hills. Walking and wheeled users do not belong on extremely narrow trails with no place to pass. This description fits almost the whole length of the Western States Trail.
    >>
    >> There are HUNDREDS of miles of trails suitable to mt. bikes in the Tahoe National Forest, and even in this same area. The Alliance provided marked trail maps for several other acceptable routes for the Tahoe Sierra 100 race. All the FS and promoter have to do is select one.
    >>
    >> The Western States Safe Trail Alliance is not anti-mt. bike, but pro-safe and maintained trails. There are some trails that should be hiker only, some that should be hiker horse, and some that can be non-motorized mutli-use. Use is dependent upon safety for all users, which means children, dog walkers, seniors, bird watchers, horses....everyone who should be able to enjoy our great natural outdoors on our public trails. IF a trail is built to safe and accepted multi-use standards, and maintained to those same standards, then mt. bikes can be added. As we all know, these designations do not deny access to anyone. Anyone can walk these trails, they would just have to leave their bikes (or horses, if hiking only) at home.
    >>
    >> Just to be clear, over 90% of FS trails are open to mt. bikes. Why the bikers state on their forums and websites they want all the trails, including the Western States, regardless of real safety and erosion concerns, is irresponsible.
    >
    > I'm happy for any bit of good news. I think it's still good that we thanked the Forest Service for doing the right thing.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Engemann View Post

    The post by the TS100 was inaccurate and is a diservice to the entire endurance community.

    ....

    The endurance community has to stick together.
    thanks for the post Mark...but if the post by the TS100 is a disservice to the entire endurance community, then how would you characterize the actions of the "Western States Safe Trail Alliance" towards the TS100?

    Yes registration for the TS100 may have been lower than in past years this year...but what do you expect to happen when it's been common knowledge for months that there's been an ongoing effort by the WSSTA to work to deny or hold up the permit for the race? Why would people sign up if there's a looming question of whether or not the race will even be allowed?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Engemann View Post
    If you can find evidence of Tevis opposing the ride please post it. There are members of the equestrian community that did oppose the ride, Tevis did not. I would encourage all members of this forum to confirm any opposition prior to making any inflamatory comments.
    We are all part of the endurance family, we can destroy each other but that doesn't help us in keeping and utiliziing our trails.
    Does Tevis use the "Safe Trails Alliance" to do all the dirty work? That way Tevis can say, No, it wasn't us?

    "There was much discussion about the possibility of trails being opened up to cyclists, in particular the Western States Trail. The Safe Trails Alliance is petitioning to make trail use for hikers and horses only for safety reasons. Single track trails with no line of sight and approximately eight feet wide are no place for cyclists. A letter prepared by Diane Dixon was given to Katie to sign off in behalf of DHA. Ann will give the signed letter to Diane. It was noted that individual letters would give more weight to the cause. Diane will generate a form letter so folks can send individual letters. Pam asked for an e-mail with more details so she can blast it out to folks about the letter-writing campaign."

    Mark, did you get one of these requests, and did you participate in this letter writing campaign?

    http://www.divideha.org/marchminutes13.pdf
    archived just in case it disappears.

    Mark, I see you are an accomplished endurance athlete, in running, riding and horse riding. If you'd like to help the endurance family, maybe you can talk to the "Safe trails alliance" and the DHA to stop trying to SNUB the cycling community. Can we count on your support?

  41. #41
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    Sierra Tahoe 100

    I sent an email to the Sacramento Bee regarding this issue and the building conflict over trail access.

    www.sacbee.com/contact/
    Its all Shits and Giggles until somebody Giggles and Shits

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    I sent an email to the Sacramento Bee regarding this issue and the building conflict over trail access.

    www.sacbee.com/contact/
    When I get home you'll get some rep for that. Just like you mentioned to me about picking up a shovel at granite bay, I haven't done anything about this either. I think that's a lot of our problem as MTBers lacking access, atrophy. We've got the numbers of users for sure to warrant more access or more trails.
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  43. #43
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    Here's what Mark Engemann thinks of mtn bikers.

    Notice this is from the parks.gov, which likely means Mark kindly wrote it and sent it in. Thanks Mark.

    Hey, maybe some time we can go riding and be friends. Then, you can know of 1 person that rides technical singletrack that hasn't run anyone off the trail...

    "I do not know any mountain bikers that ride technical single track trails who have not
    bumped handlebars or have not run someone off of a trail and/or have themselves been
    run off a trail. On a technical single track trail with obstacles,sand,mud, bushes, blind
    corners, various speeds and abilities,the wearing of personal listen devises, when
    sharing the trails, collisions are inevitable."

    http://www.parks.ca.gov/pages/795/fi...espondence.pdf

    Oh, hey, if collisions are inevitable, how about horses stay off some trails and let those be bikes only? Whatcha think?

  44. #44
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    Wow Mark. You just got exposed for what you are. Thanks, Rensho.

    Mark- slightly off topic, but why should a public resource like the WST in the ASRA be 100% bicycle-free 100% of the time? Surely many cyclists can negotiate the terrain and would enjoy it immensely. Why couldn't cyclists have access to it, say every Wednesday and Sunday? Hikers and equestrians wouldn't be excluded on those days, but those that use it during those times would understand that they may cross paths with cyclists. [EDIT: I just noticed you wrote that you support separate days. Thank you!]

    I'll add that while nobody is claiming the Tevis Cup Foundation is behind the hurdles set forth this year, people highly involved with the Tevis Cup Foundation are. I'd love to see where the Tevis Cup Foundation denounced the actions of the WSSTA, showing support for the TS100, just like GBE has shown support for the Tevis Cup over the years.

  45. #45
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    Where the F is the IMBA on something like this? They supposedly are there to foster better access for mtbs. I guess if the trail isn't in Boulder, they don't care?

    IMBA will NEVER get a check from me again

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    ^^ Easy now. They've done--and are doing--plenty of work in CA. And who's to say that they aren't planning a response to this? Then again, if the majority of riders were members, we'd have IMBA trails in every county...
    Friends don't let friends ride e-"bikes" on dirt.

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    I rode the western states trail from soda springs to Robinson Flat on Saturday 7/27. The Tevis Cup had come through the weekend before. The trail was in terrible condition and all the ribbon marking was still in place.
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    So, a bunch of recently created users start coming on the board telling us about how loved mtbr's are and that we shouldn't be disruptive, yet in reality they are anti mtb. Plus, they only showed up once retaliatory actions were discussed. We are being lied to and mislead on what we should do. You've seen their hollow diplomacy in action. I'm tired of playing nice, because they sure aren't playing by that rulebook.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTT77 View Post
    Where the F is the IMBA on something like this? They supposedly are there to foster better access for mtbs. I guess if the trail isn't in Boulder, they don't care?

    IMBA will NEVER get a check from me again
    IMBA has been proactive about the WSSTA's efforts to close the Western States Trail in the Tahoe National Forest to mt. biking. They are on it. IMBA generally does not get involved with race events... they are about general access to trails. Two separate issues, but there is certainly some crossover in this case. Keep in mind that equestrians didn't get bikes booted off the WST portion of the race... but they created unnecessary challenges that by all measures affected registrations for the race, which lead to cancelling it. Are the equestrians entirely to blame for low registration numbers? Absolutely not, but as far as I know, there weren't any of these issues last year and almost 200 people signed up.

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    Sierra Tahoe 100

    Wasn't there a group of kayakers or something, who started an IMBA club a few years ago, and started advocating for keeping bikes out of the backcountry.

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    Mark Engemann- Response
    I believe I am a true Multi-trail user, Western States Run, Tevis Ride, Leadville Mountain bike Ride, 1997 Australian Ecochallenge. If I didn't love to play outside, multi-sport, I wouldn't have done these things.
    I am an advocate for multi-sport and I don't mind suffering, I mind unecessary suffering. This is why my main recreation goal right now is promoting same trails - different days. I believe everyone has the right to play. I also believe we have the right to damage ourselves as much as we’d like but I don’t think we have the right to hurt someone else when we do what we love.
    My main issue with this discussion is you are blaming a group; Tevis instead of individuals who you feel are creating the problem. There is no group who is 100% on board on all issues and for you to suggest otherwise is disingenuous. There is a group of equestrians who don’t like mountain bikers, that is not a surprise. There are mountain bikers who don’t like equestrians. Not a surprise either
    My impression right now with the endurance community is we are eating our own. We fight so much amongst each other that we aren't fighting the real battles of keeping and maintaining the trails.
    How many of you do trail maintenance? I know that's a continuous battle talking to various groups that arrange events, bike, horse, run. We need everyone to come together to maintain trails. One group does not have the volunteers required to maintain our existing trails system. I don't know if all the groups together do.
    How many of you are trying to combat the reduction trail funds the government is currently undertaking. One group can't do it all; we all need to pitch in.
    How many of you are working on easements and land use issues as properties are being purchased and being spun off into small parcels with less understanding owners?
    Many people are blaming Tevis for the problem. No proof, no documentation although I have asked Jim many times for it. There isn't any but that doesn't fit into the neat story you would like to believe.
    I was in Auburn Bike works months ago and I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to get into TS100 as I hadn't qualified yet. Jim laughed and said not to worry as riders don't want to work that hard anymore so getting in if I qualified would not be a problem.
    Except for certain marquee events, people don't want to work that hard, ridership is down at Tevis and is a continuous battle to keep up ridership. I think there’s one full ironman distance triathlon in all of California.
    I am still looking for anything other than unsupported, visually loud, accusations that Tevis took a stand against the ride. You can believe what you want, but it would be a little more credible if you had evidence.
    I still believe a primary reason for this race being cancelled is lack of riders and Jim is not a charity. I don’t believe Jim will put on a ride if he won’t make a profit and he wasn’t going to make a profit. Ask Jim how many riders he had registered.
    We should be an endurance family, horse, run, bike as we have plenty of real enemies out there.
    Stop the Madness – Same technical Trails – different days.

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    I just got off the phone with the Nevada Park authority. If you would like to voice your dissatisfaction with allowing horse races on the Tahoe rim trail, here's the contact info:

    Jay Howard
    (775)315-5842
    jayattahoe@gmail.com

    He was very nice as I explained that having a mass of equestrians conducting a race on public lands/ singletrack was a hazard. I'm following it up with an e-mail as well. I got the sense that no-one had complained before.

    This event on August 10th has many of the tevis board members attending.

  53. #53
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    Man oh man... as a early on supporter and racer of TS100, this really makes my stomach hurt. The amount of effort Jim, Sean others have poured into making the point to point finishing in Auburn on WST a reality is beyond comprehension. Sorry to all the racers this year who have been busting their asses training. Auburn loses.

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    After Mark's original post this morning I have done some fact checking and I'm more convinced than ever the root cause of the race cancellation/lack of permit issue comes back to an independent offshoot involving elements of the Tevis organization (not Tevis itself-how convenient).

    I'm more convinced than ever we need to blow this open. Expose this selfish equine elitism behavior for all its underhandedness. Thanks as noted above for contacting The Bee. I am working on the Auburn Journal. Let's keep this going.....

  55. #55
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    This may be where the poison started for TS100 2013. In April 2013 at the CA parks monthly meeting.
    http://www.parks.ca.gov/pages/795/fi...2011_final.pdf

    Diane Dixon is also the lady that gave the canned letter to Katie (prez of DHA) to sign on behalf of the horse community of DHA and Cool.


    "Public Comment
    a. Diane Dixon Johnson from Greenwood is a Western States volunteer. She says that
    Auburn SRA trails are old and made by horses. Wants single track trails with poor
    visibility and narrow, steep shoulders reserved for horses and hikers. Alternate routes for
    mountain bikers encouraged, especially multi-use trails. Park Watch patrol cards issued.
    One solution is to build new trails with line-of-sight and wider shoulders for bikes like
    Pollock Pines and Oroville. Build bike parks. She would hate to see CRTC dissolved.
    b. Trina Romo from Greenwood would love to host the CRTC. She decries the draconian
    park cuts and has seen park use increasing greatly. She wants CSP to look for more trail
    volunteer opportunities. There is a rumor circulating that CSP is converting all trails to
    include mountain bikes. Bikes and horses don’t work on technical trails as there is no
    place to pass. "

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhillthruthewoods View Post
    I just got off the phone with the Nevada Park authority. If you would like to voice your dissatisfaction with allowing horse races on the Tahoe rim trail, here's the contact info:

    Jay Howard
    (775)315-5842
    jayattahoe@gmail.com

    He was very nice as I explained that having a mass of equestrians conducting a race on public lands/ singletrack was a hazard. I'm following it up with an e-mail as well. I got the sense that no-one had complained before.

    This simple action is exactly what the Equestrian group has done for years and it is 100% effective. Well maybe not 100%. I am banned from 98.4% of the trails in Marin County so I guess it isn't completely effective.

    No one has complained before because no group is as selfish or mean spirited as the equestrians. If just 10% of MTBers did this simple action we would at least be able to show some force and scare the equestrians from pulling a stunt like this again. Possibly force them into some kind of negotiation.

    Thank you for taking this step in the right direction.

    Also I wanted to add that erosion isn't the best tactic to use against the equestrians. The best tactic is safety concerns. Ultimately the erosion argument was proven to be false and I believe that proper trail maintenance can handle the very small amount of equestrians that actually get out on the trails.

    Now the safety issue is a far better one to pursue. These large animals can not be reliably controlled around children, dogs, firearms, fireworks or any other sudden noise or movement. Why should they be allowed on the trails? It is a simple statement that is difficult if not impossible to refute. If enough concerned citizens ask that horses be banned from the trails it will eventually have an effect.

    I agree 100% that the time for playing nice is over. The equestrians have gone to far and it is time to show them that there will be a consequence for their lies and half truths.

    I for one am sick of being treated like a 2nd class citizen because of the efforts of the equestrian groups. I have been robbed of so many opportunities to experience the lands that I love because of a small group that have portrayed me as a reckless, disturbed individual that would not even take the time to help an injured person. When in fact I am a professional pilot, one that observes safety rules and regulations, has gone out of my way to obtain wilderness first aid certification and help all trail users in distress and has done over 100 days of trail work in my community - this year.

    Overhillthruthewoods thank you so much for posting this and for starting what is likely the solution to gaining access to trails that have been unjustly taken from us.

  57. #57
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    Mark E. - Welcome to MTBR, where many of us also like to play and suffer while participating in a variety of activities. We are like-minded in that respect. Since you appear to be brand new here, you may have not seen the gobs of posts over the years that discuss the trail maintenance, trail building, trail advocacy, fundraising, etc. that happens within this relatively tiny subset of the greater mt. biking community. Questioning what mt. bikers are doing to make trails better indicates that you aren't aware of how far mt. biking has come since the 80's. I could be wrong, but it was a weird call out on your part.

    Regarding the blame game (and likely the reason you joined MTBR)... while the email announcement Jim sent out mentions "the Tevis group", I believe you are correct that it's not THE Tevis Cup Foundation that created unnecessary hurdles that impacted racer interest, training and commitment/registration. But it also wasn't some random equestrians either, was it? It appears the Suter's are highly involved with Tevis, no? Thus, Tevis got lumped into the drama by association. That's unfortunately how things work when bad apples are out there.

    More worrisome than "accusations that Tevis took a stand against the ride" is the reality that -- as far as I know -- Tevis hasn't taken a stand FOR the event! Why are they not denouncing the efforts of their members for messing with a perfectly suitable endurance event that aspires to be as iconic as the Tevis Cup and the Western States 100? Why are they not outright vocalizing support for this event as a welcome member of what should be an unparalleled endurance trifecta (which you likely would have been the first to do all three)? Where's the love from Tevis? If I'm wrong about this, please share where Kathie Perry or someone else has endorsed the TS100. Auburn bills itself as the Endurance Capital of the World. Is that only for runners and horses? C'mon. GBE endorses and supports Tevis... where's the reciprocity?

    It's no secret that the ride was called because of lack of sign-ups, but if you think the drama created by equestrians associated with Tevis lobbying the USFS last Spring didn't affect registration in several ways, then you don't get it. Without that distraction/uncertainty, I think we'd be moving forward with the race instead of talking about all this crap on mtbr.

    Lastly, I'm curious why the letter you wrote only states that bikes and horses can't share technical trails. No mention of a shared use schedule? Are you actively advocating for a shared use schedule for the WST in the ASRA? If you know a good format for doing so, please let us know.

    Other than all that, I agree that trail users need to work together instead of against each other, and I'm glad you are advocating for that within the user groups you are involved with. Thanks~

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    Please read every post I made:
    Stop the Madness - Same Technical Trails - Different Days
    My suggestion would be even / odd days for Mountain Bikes & Equestrians.
    Again, I feel everyone should have the opportunity to play. The trails need to be utilized by everyone so everyone has a stake and will fight for them and will work for them.
    Runners - hikers are able to utilize the trails everyday.
    Mark
    Stop the Madness- Same Technical Trails - Different Days

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    Awesome. Where are you promoting this? How is it being received? How can I help? How can we all help? I ask because I've seen no changes from State Parks in 14 years of this being pushed. How do we get equestrians to "give it a try"?

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    I'm going to be working on a site
    "Trailwars.com" I have the name, I was kind of busy training for TS100 and trying to make a living and so didn't have a chance to put it together.
    I would like to get an e-mail list of any riders, runners and equestrians interested in this and I will keep you updated.
    Critical to this approach is enforcement. If there is an agreement to try, no bootlegging can be allowed and all the communities need to participate.
    In all the events that I have done I know more equestrians taking helicopter rides than any other group. Nobody likes to get hurt, once you take away the unecessary suffering(fear) my hope is that we can begin to get along.
    I've ridden both temecula rides this year and Bogg Mountain. Mountain Bikers, riders, runners are all the same they've just taken different venues in how they like to play. If we can eliminate the fear, the ability to work together and fight for the maintenance, use, creation of our trails is going to be dramatically increased.
    Mark
    Stop the Madness - Same Technical Trails - Different Days

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    here's the email I wrote to the person that approved the permit for the equestrian Tahoe rim ride on August 10th:

    Jay,
    I spoke to you earlier today regarding the August 10th Tahoe Rim Ride being held by a group of equestrians under the name of Endurance Trax. I am a frequent user of this beautiful trail system as both a hiker and mountain biker. I am concerned with a permit being issued to Endurance Trax to conduct this race. My concerns are as follows:

    *The race is being conducted on a course which is open to the public at the same time it is occurring.
    *This race spans a full 12 hours.
    *Much of the race is being conducted on tight high alpine singletrack trails where passing other trail users is problematic.
    *Members of this race have contacted other non-equestrian users of the trail letting them know that their horses are unpredictable and that heavy use from other users could result in injuries.

    Although I am in favor of multi-use trails, putting a large group of equestrians in a relatively small area, for a long period of time, on tight singletrack, where they will actively come in contact with other users is a risk. Thanks for listening to my concerns.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Engemann View Post
    I'm going to be working on a site
    "Trailwars.com" I have the name, I was kind of busy training for TS100 and trying to make a living and so didn't have a chance to put it together.
    I would like to get an e-mail list of any riders, runners and equestrians interested in this and I will keep you updated.
    Critical to this approach is enforcement. If there is an agreement to try, no bootlegging can be allowed and all the communities need to participate.
    In all the events that I have done I know more equestrians taking helicopter rides than any other group. Nobody likes to get hurt, once you take away the unecessary suffering(fear) my hope is that we can begin to get along.
    I've ridden both temecula rides this year and Bogg Mountain. Mountain Bikers, riders, runners are all the same they've just taken different venues in how they like to play. If we can eliminate the fear, the ability to work together and fight for the maintenance, use, creation of our trails is going to be dramatically increased.
    Mark
    Stop the Madness - Same Technical Trails - Different Days
    Not sure if that name is serious or not, but there is no way I can support and belong to an org/site called trailwars. We're not trying to do what some of the equestrian groups are doing (trying to get bikes banned everywhere). We're trying to use trails that belong to all of us. If that means odd/even days for usage, that's fine. We want something REMOTELY resembling equality.
    What some of the F'n equestrians don't get is, if the issue is trail conflict, let us have some of the trails and let us build our own trails. But for the past 30+ years, we get kicked off trails, and are forbidden to make new trails or ride new trails into existence.

    Mark, I'm all for your plan, but suggest a much more even keel name to the site.

    In the end, I'm sure you'll find the same thing we've found down here with the horse community. NO We want it all. We want what we already have, and bikes can go to hell.

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    You are wrong and the vilification of an entire group is why we are in the position we are in today. I’ve worked with and know a lot of mountain bikers, equestrians and runners. There are elements in all groups that want it all and are showing no room for compromise. The goal of like-minded people is to show that compromise is possible.
    I firmly believe that Mountain Bikes and Equestrian cannot be on the same technical trail on the same day. I don’t know of any semi-aggressive mountain bike rider who has not bumped handlebars when going in opposite directions. I have on many occasions and this is one reason so many bikers have little bells, horns, etc. Riders get bruises, horses jump and they don’t always look where they are jumping.
    If we take away the potential unnecessary suffering (bike – horse collisions) we go a long way to mitigating the fear which is keeping us apart.
    If you’ve already given up on compromise then where do you go? We can all complain to the parks department and eventually they will realize that all events are dangerous (who does not know someone who has broken something on a bike or horse) and they should all be banned. We can sue the parks department for showing favoritism and the Parks will realize that there is too much liability in having event or allowing events, horse and bike and ban them all. We can spend all our money litigating against each other and then watch as the no impact trail groups fight against the remnants of time, energy and money the endurance groups have left after they’ve destroy each other.
    There is a solution, same technical trails – different days.
    There is another solution, destroy each other until no one is around to care anymore.
    I infinitely prefer the former.
    Mark
    Stop the Madness – Same Technical Trails – Different Days

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    Ok, let's dispense with the ridiculous "mutually assured destruction" argument. If you believe that governmental agencies, be they local or federal, make decisions based upon rational thinking, you are mistaken. Anyone who has either worked for or with the government knows that politics rule. Every person who has any modicum of decision making has either been appointed or is under the thumb of an appointee. Do you think that land managers are too stupid to figure out that equestrian's reasons for excluding us are the exact same ones that can be applied to them? It has nothing to do with who's right. It's all about who has the power, and it can be real or perceived. Governmental decision makers are ruled by fear and power.

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    Sierra Tahoe 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Engemann View Post
    I firmly believe that Mountain Bikes and Equestrian cannot be on the same technical trail on the same day. I don’t know of any semi-aggressive mountain bike rider who has not bumped handlebars when going in opposite directions.
    As long as you make statements like this I will never take you seriously. I've been a serious mountain biker for over 20 years and I've never bumped handlebars with anyone or anything. You have got to be kidding me!

    Please stop making hyperbolic, short sighted comments like this. They do not represent the mountain biking community. Period.

  66. #66
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    An Eye For an Eye Only Leaves A Room Full Of Blind Men

    Some thoughts:

    The saying "An eye for an eye only leaves a room full of blind men" is appropriate here. Messing with other user groups events, in other locations, is only alienating potential allies.

    Even if the cancellation of the 2013 TS 100 can/could be laid [partially/fully] at the feet [hooves?] of a small militant group of equestrians, publicly attributing it to them only encourages and emboldens them to continue to use the same tactics in the future. Better to politely ignore lunatics in public and quietly work behind the scenes to change the landscape with land managers.

    I would encourage everyone following this thread to C A R E F U L L Y read the posts by Empty_Beer and Mark Engemann to divine the truth of the situation, and a way to move beyond differences and develop something workable and sustainable for everybody.
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    I'm sorry I thought the people I rode with and knew we're relatively in the mainstream I should not have assumed. I should put many mountain bikers bump into each other as I know that to be a fact because I am personally acquainted with them.
    Also, I do believe eventually the voice of reason will prevail. If we all want the same things, the use, maintenance and expansion of the existing trail system and the ability to enjoy them we are going to have to learn to live and play together.
    Mark
    Stop the Madness - same technical trails - different days

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Engemann View Post
    I firmly believe that Mountain Bikes and Equestrian cannot be on the same technical trail on the same day. I don’t know of any semi-aggressive mountain bike rider who has not bumped handlebars when going in opposite directions.
    You're winning me over a little, but there are still holes in your story that need more info before I join forces with you. What trails specifically are you talking about that you feel can't be shared on the same day? Before you answer, think about the technical singletrack trails in this country that are shared by all trail users on a daily basis already. How are the trails you are thinking of different than those other trails?

    Also, I'm in the camp of very, very active mt. bikers that have logged thousands of singletrack miles and haven't had a collision with any bike, pedestrian or horse in over 20 years of riding. I'm not a fan of the speed fallacy... whether it be Salmon Falls, Connector Trail, FHDT or any other 2-way trail, bikes presumably go faster than all other modes of trail travel and yet I've still never collided with an oncoming bike that presumably is "whizzing by" at the same speed I am (we somehow figure out how to stop and avoid collisions). I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but the hyperbole spread by non-bikers would make one believe bikers crash into bikers all the time. Not true. I do agree a horse brings a whole different element to the equation though, as they are unpredictable.

    I still like the shared use schedule concept for currently off-limits-to-bikes trails and would like to know if you've had ANY success in convincing your fellow equestrians to give a little. There is absolutely no plausible argument for justifying 100% of a public trail being accessible 100% of the time for the exclusive use of pedestrians and equestrians.

    And your proposed URL is probably the worst name for a trail sharing website... just my $0.02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jms View Post
    Some thoughts:

    The saying "An eye for an eye only leaves a room full of blind men" is appropriate here. Messing with other user groups events, in other locations, is only alienating potential allies.

    Even if the cancellation of the 2013 TS 100 can/could be laid [partially/fully] at the feet of a small militant group of equestrians, publicly attributing it to them only encourages and emboldens them to continue to use the same tactics in the future. Better to politely ignore lunatics in public and quietly work behind the scenes to change the landscape with land managers.

    I would encourage everyone following this thread to C A R E F U L L Y read the posts by Empty Beer and Mark Engeman to divine the truth of the situation, and a way to move beyond our differences and develop something workable and sustainable for everybody.
    Once again, you are applying logic to the way the government works. You clearly have no idea of how it really works. You keep being nice and you will continue to lose again and again. It's fitting that you used a biblical reference since Jesus died and the money changers still rule the world. If heaven exists maybe you'll get equal access to trails, until then you won't.

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    Kevin Joell of TAMBA here. I've put in several hundred hours over the last couple years working to get access for bikes on the TRT across Snow Valley Peak. Doing trail counts, a detailed trail assessment, talking to other user groups and attending public meetings where I was not always the most popular person there. The proposal still sits in limbo on one of the land managers desks because there was a lot of vocal opposition from some hikers and equestrians.

    But here's where we get to the point. The promoter of the Endurance Trax equestrian ride on the TRT that has been referenced here, "Tevis2014", was one of the few equestrians who spoke to the land managers IN FAVOR of our proposal to open the Snow Valley Peak section of the TRT to bikes.

    It sucks that TS 100 was cancelled. But blaming another event/person for the actions of others makes no sense. Don't we know how it feels when mountain bikers as a whole are blamed for the actions of a few? Rather than attack a separate event because some equestrians participate in both, I'd recommend organizing with Jim (GBE) to find out what is needed to make sure a TS100 permit can be obtained for next year.

    The Tahoe Mountain Bike Patrol will be out in support of the Endurance Trax ride just like they do for the Ultra Marathon, XTERRA and the Great Tahoe Flume Race. The patrol will be advising people of other routes to take during the peak hours of the event to reduce conflict. I plan on volunteering with them as a course marshal. My hope is that maybe some of those splinter Tevis folks that seemed to have caused a lot of the TS 100 problems see us there helping and in some very small way it changes their opinion of bikes just a little.

    The Park Supervisor, Jay Howard and I work together quite often and I have already let him know to expect some rants and where they are coming from. I also let him know that the Endurance Trax event has my full support, the support of TAMBA and the support of the Bike Patrol and we will be assisting them in putting on a safe event.

    Thanks in advance for your understanding,

    Kevin Joell
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    Thank you for chiming in, Kevin... and thank you for all that you do. South Lake Tahoe and the East side are setting the bar very high in terms of what can be accomplished with nose to the grindstone advocacy and partnerships. It's incredible!

    Disrupting an event would be a terrible decision. The "battle" needs to take place in our words (continued emails, letters, phone calls, and presentations to land managers) and actions (attending meetings, being courteous on trails, trail maintenance, etc.) If someone can share a true story about how pissing off other trail users lead to better relations and more access, maybe I'll reconsider. Please take the high road, even if it continues to be a long road and far less satisfying than letting off some anger to total strangers. The tide is turning... I think we can all feel it. Killing others with kindness, intelligence and sweat equity will trump all else. I have no problem with holding other user groups to the same standards mt. bikers must live up to, but that can be done in many ways that don't include possibly ruining a live event.

    Of course, mt. bikers are often all keyboard and no action, so I don't actually think people will rally to cause probs on August 10th. I hope I'm right.

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    Kevin, I respect your approach, but as you stated our access still sits in limbo due to a vocal group of hikers and equestrians. Although the ts100 is involved, this is not the main catalyst. This is about access. My note to Jay is not a rant and I don't appreciate you undermining it. It is as valid of an approach as yours. Maybe you should respect others trying a different approach rather than just assuming yours is the only way. Regardless, there is a growing community that is tired and not willing to use the same old tactics.

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    Empty, there are tons of examples where pissing off other users has lead to greater access. What do you think the equestrians and hikers have been doing all these years? Every time they get us removed from another trail it's a gain for them. Just because mountain bikers haven't stooped to their level yet doesn't mean it can't be just as successful for us.

    Where do you think the civil rights and women's suffrage movement would be today had they stuck to your methods?

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    Its ridiculous that horses have any access at all.

    If I built a 1500 pound "bike", fitted it with a motor that could produce 500 watts all day long without the rider even breaking a sweat, gave it hard edged metal tires that generated ground pressures 10 times any other trail user, wired a control system that was likely to fail at the most critical times, and got off of my bike to take a dump in the trail every 15 minutes, I'd be lucky if all I got was banned from the trails. Arrested would be a serious possibility.

    Basically a horse is a trail roto-tiller. At best horses should have access to tightly controlled OHV areas with the motos.

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    As a proponent of the "same trails - different days" trail sharing, some initial thoughts.

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    As a proponent of the "same trails - different days" trail sharing, some initial thoughts.
    - a trail or a few trails should be chosen by the groups which are the highest stakeholders. I would propose consulting the Western States Run board, the Tevis Board and possibly Jim Northy / Fatrac combination or any other group that has a significant stake in the trail system. I'm open to suggestons and this would not be my decision. I would only hope that it is a goup that is motivated to make a fair trial.
    - Each of these groups as stakeholders in the decision will also have the responsibility of doing their best to make sure no bootlegging of trails happens. The one thing that will destroy any agreement is if someone gets hurt because of bootlegging a trail.
    - There would be a limited duration test. It would need to during the peak season so if we started in December it may need to be a year, if it started in April, maybe six months.
    - All groups would particpate in the cost of putting out adequate signage.
    - All groups would go to the necessary governmental agencies as one entity to show support for this.
    Also, one thing I hear a lot of is that each side feels that the other side is unbending. As someone who has been identified as a spy for the equestrians by various mountain bikers and as a spy for the mountain bikers by various equestrians, I also get to hear from various members who feel that some type of accomodation needs to be worked out. If you look at the beginning of the posts on this subject, there is a lot of animosity out there and there are people who don't want to be ostracized by their compatriots.
    I beleive this is worth a try on a limited basis
    Mark
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    Sierra Tahoe 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphic View Post
    Its ridiculous that horses have any access at all.

    If I built a 1500 pound "bike",…
    Great analogy.
    Its all Shits and Giggles until somebody Giggles and Shits

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    Thank you, your timing was perfect

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Engemann View Post
    I'm sorry I thought the people I rode with and knew we're relatively in the mainstream I should not have assumed. I should put many mountain bikers bump into each other as I know that to be a fact because I am personally acquainted with them.
    Gee in 25 years of riding narrow technical trails I've never hit another biker, hiker or horse.
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  80. #80
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    Pissing In Somebody Else's Punchbowl

    Quote Originally Posted by Overhillthruthewoods View Post
    Once again, you are applying logic to the way the government works. You clearly have no idea of how it really works. You keep being nice and you will continue to lose again and again. It's fitting that you used a biblical reference since Jesus died and the money changers still rule the world. If heaven exists maybe you'll get equal access to trails, until then you won't.
    Actually, I was quoting a Dave Mathews song.

    Pissing in somebody else's punchbowl isn't going to help. Sigh, unless you really, really enjoy the taste of humble pie, I urge you to CAREFULLY read what those with more intimate knowledge of the situation are posting here before mounting your all out internet assault/sh_tstorm/protest/lynch mob on equestrians and the others that don't completely share your sentiments. But that's just me...........
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    Why do you think MTBers should negotiate from any kind of fair shared use position?

    Horse are not human powered. They should obviously be viewed in land use discussions with other powered equipment like ATVs, jet skis, sand rail, Motos, etc. They should probably also be tax and licensed like other powered transportation. Drivers of powered equipment have also be traditionally required to possess a license to ensure that they know how to properly handle the equipment.

    Horses exert far higher ground forces than any other trail user. There use should obviously be restricted to trails where the substrate can handle the strain. The restriction of traffic from sensitive environments on public lands is well established; for a 1500 pound animal with metal shoes the bar for what constitutes a sensitive environment is very low.

    Horses have hundreds of millions of years of evolution programing to flee when startled. While other trails users might also act unpredictably, horses can't help it. The inability of horses to cope with an unconstrained environment is well documented. Dangerous sociopaths are reasonably restricted polite society; this model is reasonably applied to horses in this context.

    Even the trucks and trailers that bring the horses to the trail head are high impact; high displacement motors, high fuel burn, dualies pulling a 2 axel trailer, triple the parking needed, plus generous turn around area and all of it needs to be engineered for the extra weight.

    Horses do not deserve anything close to fair trail use because there is nothing remotely fair about the damage they do to the trail environment. It is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for a horse to tread lightly, both literally and conceptually.

    Heck, all the other users, for whatever faults they may possess, manage not to poop all over the place. Why don't the equestrians start with that.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Engemann View Post
    As a proponent of the "same trails - different days" trail sharing, some initial thoughts.
    - a trail or a few trails should be chosen by the groups which are the highest stakeholders. I would propose consulting the Western States Run board, the Tevis Board and possibly Jim Northy / Fatrac combination or any other group that has a significant stake in the trail system. I'm open to suggestons and this would not be my decision. I would only hope that it is a goup that is motivated to make a fair trial.
    - Each of these groups as stakeholders in the decision will also have the responsibility of doing their best to make sure no bootlegging of trails happens. The one thing that will destroy any agreement is if someone gets hurt because of bootlegging a trail.
    - There would be a limited duration test. It would need to during the peak season so if we started in December it may need to be a year, if it started in April, maybe six months.
    - All groups would particpate in the cost of putting out adequate signage.
    - All groups would go to the necessary governmental agencies as one entity to show support for this.
    Also, one thing I hear a lot of is that each side feels that the other side is unbending. As someone who has been identified as a spy for the equestrians by various mountain bikers and as a spy for the mountain bikers by various equestrians, I also get to hear from various members who feel that some type of accomodation needs to be worked out. If you look at the beginning of the posts on this subject, there is a lot of animosity out there and there are people who don't want to be ostracized by their compatriots.
    I beleive this is worth a try on a limited basis
    Mark
    Stop the Madness - Same Technical Trails - Different Days

  82. #82
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    I think it’s pretty funny the “Western States Safe Trail Alliance“ cited erosion issues as one of the reasons not to run the bike race on the Western States.

    What do they think a horse race does?????

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    OT now, but:

    Whatever the reason for the cancellation, that really sucks for everyone that trained for this event. Unfortunately, nothing else that local this year, but if you can do a 9ish hour drive, consider taking that fitness to the Park City Point 2 Point on 8/31. The race is sold out, but you can always find spots for sale as it gets closer.

    It is only 75 miles, but still considered about the hardest races around after the Breck 100. All single track with lots of rocky and rooty sections all between elevations of about 6k and 9k. Our ride was rain shortened last year, but this is a race I will definitely do again.
    Are we putting air in the tires today?

  85. #85
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    I like that there are so many spirited folks with hopes of attaining usage of trails by all users, however, this thread started because we (MTBers) want use of ONE trail for ONE stinking day. Baby steps people. Let's focus on this race and this day and we can use it as an example of why this trail should/could be multi-use year round. I've trained my ass off this year getting ready for this and am now heart broken like many. I don't hold ill will or hate to anyone but just a desire to make sure we race in '14. Why is there so much hate for MTBers that we can't get just ONE Effing day?

  86. #86
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    Mark - Set a meeting date for interested parties willing to work together. I think we all know rational trail users that can hammer out a workable plan that can be presented to land managers.

    Here's an example of trail sharing in Montana, hashed out between all user groups and the land manager (much of it is seasonal, due to various factors):


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    I'm going to go out on a limb and provide my e-mail address for all interested parties to stay in contact and if you have contacts with various trail groups I'd love to hear from them.
    I could see if anyone from Tevis and WS100 and Fatrac, Jim Northy may be interested in joining in a discussion. The only qualification I would have is that everyone needs to acknowledge that all groups have the right to utilize the trail system and that the "same trails - different day" is a concept they would consider with the common primary goal being the use,creation, expansion and protecton of our trails. I'm not trying to iron out differences right now, we just need a relatively general, common goal.
    my e-mail address is Mark.Engemann@Colliers.com.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Engemann View Post
    The only qualification I would have is that everyone needs to acknowledge that all groups have the right to utilize the trail system and that the "same trails - different day" is a concept they would consider with the common primary goal being the use,creation, expansion and protecton of our trails.
    My only problem with this is if it only applies to trails already open to mountain bikes otherwise it's a net loss for access. Will the Western States from Foresthill to Ruck-A-Chucky open up? will the hiker/equestrian community want to allow access to any other currently closed trails to bikes, I highly doubt it.

    This whole thing is sad, it's one thing when different groups are fighting for the same limited amount of land in a highly populated area like Marin. But in the backcountry of the Sierra's I've personally never had any issues sharing trails with all groups. Vocal minority's from all sides just ruin it for everyone.
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    That would be the purpose of the discussion. Can we get everyone to agree to open up one or a limited number of trails as a test case? If we can agree it is going to be the obligaton of all stakeholders to try to enforce the rules of that trail and prevent bootlegging.
    We can't go along as we are so we need to try something, but for it to work we need the participation of existing, major stakeholders in the trail system.

  90. #90
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    Well it does not appear to be working that well at Tahoe Meadows, even though most adhere, there are many that say that's since it's only a "Recommendation" and it's the only day they have to ride it, they do it anyway. The hikers get pissed cause many think it's illegal to ride it on those days when in fact it's not just causing more conflict. But since this is a popular shuttle ride it may not reflect what might really occur on true backcountry rides.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KK29 View Post
    I like that there are so many spirited folks with hopes of attaining usage of trails by all users, however, this thread started because we (MTBers) want use of ONE trail for ONE stinking day. Baby steps people. Let's focus on this race and this day and we can use it as an example of why this trail should/could be multi-use year round. I've trained my ass off this year getting ready for this and am now heart broken like many. I don't hold ill will or hate to anyone but just a desire to make sure we race in '14. Why is there so much hate for MTBers that we can't get just ONE Effing day?
    Another disappointed rider here.

    We had our day set up...it's just that not that many of us are willing to sign up for it.

    Multiple reasons:
    1 - It is physically difficult with HAB and there is the possibility of scorching heat.
    2 - Logistics of point to point is difficult from a solo rider perspective.
    3 - $ - it isn't cheap (not that I think it should/could be less)
    4 - The horse group, really only 1-2 nags there.
    5 - Marketing - I think there is a bit of room for improvement here
    6 - Timing - someone wrote that the trail is trashed from the Tevis Cup. There is always dust but if there is 2" of moondust everywhere it's hard to follow someone.
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    Sierra Tahoe 100

    Quote Originally Posted by fourarm View Post
    Another disappointed rider here.

    We had our day set up...it's just that not that many of us are willing to sign up for it.

    Multiple reasons:
    1 - It is physically difficult with HAB and there is the possibility of scorching heat.
    2 - Logistics of point to point is difficult from a solo rider perspective.
    3 - $ - it isn't cheap (not that I think it should/could be less)
    4 - The horse group, really only 1-2 nags there.
    5 - Marketing - I think there is a bit of room for improvement here
    6 - Timing - someone wrote that the trail is trashed from the Tevis Cup. There is always dust but if there is 2" of moondust everywhere it's hard to follow someone.
    Sadly one or 2 outspoken nags is all it takes to completely marginalize mountain bikers. It just happened in Marin.

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    I'm still at a loss why there's a huge number of mtbr's who believe protesting is only going to make it worse for us. I can't think of a single human rights issue in all of history which wasn't realized without protests. The really crazy thing is that we are allowing the minority to dictate our rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhillthruthewoods View Post
    I'm still at a loss why there's a huge number of mtbr's who believe protesting is only going to make it worse for us. I can't think of a single human rights issue in all of history which wasn't realized without protests.
    Believe it or not, a white man who can afford a $3,000+ carbon fiber toy to go out on play on, being denied access to some dirt...really doesn't strike the general population as a human right issue, or even me. (I had some relatives who were in Auschwitz, just to put things in perspective) We really aren't a sympathetic group. Public employee unions are running into similar problems when they threaten to strike now....no one feels sorry for them. If anything the public feels like they are being cheated. The whole concept of striking kind of backfires.

    Look at critical mass now, I think it mostly annoys people. It annoys me. There was that lady who got kind of lost and drove into the middle of critical mass, and the got her mini-van beaten up...Stuff like that doesn't really help, doesn't garner much sympathy.

    We have a two party system of government, where to make things happen you have to form coalitions. But to stop things from happening you can be individual who makes a lot of noise, look at the NRA. I don't think most people riding horses are trying to throw up road blocks to cyclists. There are a few equestrians who try really hard and are successful. I'd say concentrate on the annnoying ones, find ways to marginalize them, swiftboat them, make them appear as out of touch as they really are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhillthruthewoods View Post
    I'm still at a loss why there's a huge number of mtbr's who believe protesting is only going to make it worse for us. I can't think of a single human rights issue in all of history which wasn't realized without protests. The really crazy thing is that we are allowing the minority to dictate our rights.
    That's not to say I don't think about telling those people to shove it, and think up more and more creative ways to do so. When it comes time to actually do it, it doesn't seem to work out as well as it does in your head...at least that's been my experience.

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    Re: Sierra Tahoe 100

    Quote Originally Posted by fourarm View Post
    Another disappointed rider here.

    We had our day set up...it's just that not that many of us are willing to sign up for it.

    Multiple reasons:
    1 - It is physically difficult with HAB and there is the possibility of scorching heat.
    2 - Logistics of point to point is difficult from a solo rider perspective.
    3 - $ - it isn't cheap (not that I think it should/could be less)
    4 - The horse group, really only 1-2 nags there.
    5 - Marketing - I think there is a bit of room for improvement here
    6 - Timing - someone wrote that the trail is trashed from the Tevis Cup. There is always dust but if there is 2" of moondust everywhere it's hard to follow someone.
    Well I am guilty of not being registered yet but I usually wait til a week or two before an event anyway as I'm sure a lot of people do for Jimmys races. I did it last year for the first time and was really excited to put a dent in my last year's results. Oh well, I believe we will get this race back.

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  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    ....
    And your proposed URL is probably the worst name for a trail sharing website... just my $0.02.
    Agree ,, How about trailharmony.com ?


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    Quote Originally Posted by zon View Post
    Agree ,, How about trailharmony.com ?


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    What are you looking for? A dating site?
    Its all Shits and Giggles until somebody Giggles and Shits

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    What are you looking for? A dating site?
    Heck ya,, that will get attention. Hottest growth market on the web.
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    EB: No offense, but PCP2P is nowhere near the TS100 by any reckoning, be it commitment, technical difficulty, time in saddle, vertical, energy expended, tradition potential, or any other variable. A lot of its single track is actually double track and its loose rockiness reminded me of our beloved Red Hills [...why drive 11 hours for this???]. I did the PCP2P last year for the first and last time but I have done TS100 3 times and my plan is to do the TS100 many more times!

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  5. Tahoe Sierra 100
    By jimmyboy in forum California - Socal
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 01-07-2011, 10:06 AM

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