View Poll Results: Should $2 Dollar Hill Be Re-Routed/Removed?

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  • Yes, re-route it. It will be better

    21 35.59%
  • No, keep it. This trail is historic!

    19 32.20%
  • Find some comprimse that keeps it, but provides an easier option

    21 35.59%
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  1. #1
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    Should $2 Dollar Hill in Joaquin Miller be Removed/Destroyed?

    BTCEB has apparently been working on a re-route of $2 Dollar Hill for some time now, and finally succeeded in getting permission to re-route Sunset Trail away from this challenging feature.

    $2 Dollar Hill in my opinion is worthy of preservation, simply due to it's history and reputation of being a challenging hill to climb.

    It sure would be nice if the BTCEB would make public, plans like these and put them up for debate - before endeavoring to ruin one of the best known hill climbs in the Bay Area.

    While it may be too little, too late - go ahead and vote. How ever symbolically.

    For those not familiar with the trail- here's a few samples from Youtube and Vimeo

    Two Dollar Hill - YouTube
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  2. #2
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    looks like the number videos we're allowed to post are limited - but here's more


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  3. #3
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    Unicyclists on $2 hill! (BTCEB's own video)
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  4. #4
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    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

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  5. #5
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    FWIW, I recall hearing about this reroute quite some time ago (4-6 months?), and I don't live in the area anymore (going on 14 years). Maybe I read it on mtbr? As a former JMP regular and sentimental guy to boot, yeah it's a bummer if it goes, but not a huge loss in the grand scheme of things.

    Out of hundreds of rides in JMP, I can't recall ever going down $2 Hill...

    Maybe make that nasty climb between Dunn Trail and Sequoia Point the new $1.99 Hill?


  6. #6
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    I ran into Brent and the Hilride guys yesterday morning, they had just finished flagging it appeared. I myself think that there would be no problem on rider's attitudes if the $2 hill section was left alone, and perhaps signed as "uphill only" for cyclists. Having another trail that turns off to allow a more easily rideable route is a great idea - but leave the challenge for those looking for it! I've ridden down it a few times, and it's just a steep, short, rocky hill. Palos Colorado is much more fun to pick your way down the roots, IMO. Been about 7 years since I've made it up $2 hill, but once I decide to get another geared bike, it might be worth taking a serious shot at it again. Be nice if it was still there.
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  7. #7
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    Part of me says, " Hell no, it must stay! It's a classic!" Then another part of me says, "Phew, I won't have to walk that again".
    I'm not sure how this works.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATBScott View Post
    I ran into Brent and the Hilride guys yesterday morning, they had just finished flagging it appeared. I myself think that there would be no problem on rider's attitudes if the $2 hill section was left alone, and perhaps signed as "uphill only" for cyclists. Having another trail that turns off to allow a more easily rideable route is a great idea - but leave the challenge for those looking for it! I've ridden down it a few times, and it's just a steep, short, rocky hill. Palos Colorado is much more fun to pick your way down the roots, IMO. Been about 7 years since I've made it up $2 hill, but once I decide to get another geared bike, it might be worth taking a serious shot at it again. Be nice if it was still there.
    Yah, it's really not fun riding down - but it is a challenge riding up. I dont see how keeping it could hurt anything.

    It's an old logging road, right? That means it's been there a hundred years or so? Seems like it's lasted pretty well!
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  9. #9
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    Keep it i say, for my selfish reason - I rarely make it out there but getting close to cleaning it climbing!

    I think most mtb appreciate the challenge it provides and it's rare in these parts.

  10. #10
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    I'm of two minds on this. I use a 1x10 on my current MTB, so going up $2 means I'm pushing. On a bike with a granny it's definitely a fun challenge, so I wouldn't necessarily want to see it closed completely. But I also wonder if the MTB community could score some points by supporting the closure and re-vegetation of the really eroded stretch. It wouldn't have a huge impact on overall erosion in the park, but it could be a PR win. I suppose it comes down to how well-planned the reroute is...if Hilride is on board, it should be legit.

  11. #11
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    Yes there is a plan to reroute Sunset Trail a bit west of $2 Hill up to Sequoia-Bayview Trail. The primary purpose of this project is to provide a more sustainable and user friendly trail which currently lies in the creek bed of Palo Seco Creek and is substantially over grade.

    As has been mentioned this project has been talked about for many, many years. For over ten years I was a board member for BTCEB, four as President, and I have been the vice-chair of the Friends of Joaquin Miller Park (FOJMP) for the last two years. During this time I had the opportunity to talk and interact with many hundreds (if not thousands) of Bay Area cyclists. And while I certainly haven't talked to ever mountain biker in the east bay, I have had numerous conversations on $2 Hill over the years. Both with those that wanted to work on rerouting or repairing this section of trail and others who wanted it left alone. And I've personally been reluctant to tackle this trail because of my own conflicting views. But the idea that this reroute has suddenly been thrust upon local riders without any input is simply not true.

    One of the reason that this trail has just been left alone is that it lies in the creek bed of Palo Seco Creek. This made getting permission to work on the trail very difficult as the permitting process to work in a creek is a real bear. Over the years the trail has widened and is now about 12' wide and developed some really nasty rutting.
    Should  Dollar Hill in Joaquin Miller be Removed/Destroyed?-sunset01.jpg

    Last year the FOJMP flagged this area as one of the top three areas in the park that needed attention. There is a fair amount of back story that I won't get into, but suffice to say the writing was on the wall that momentum was growing for this trail to be rerouted. Knowing this, the question was should we stand around and do nothing, actively fight against the idea, or get out in front and lead on the project. BTC choose the later and in January had Jim Jacobson come out and we walked the area with park management and laid out a rough reroute up the northern slope. But Jim was super busy with the Flow Trail and while he was willing to pin out a new trail wasn't able to come on board with construction. (Jim build the "switchback trail" in Dimond Park and did the design work for all the major reroutes in the Park over the last decade.)

    But as luck would have it another one of the Bay Areas primer trail building group, Hilride Progression Development Group, LLC, recently relocated to Oakland and were excited about doing a local project. If you don't know about Hilride they are the designers behind the Stafford Lake (Marin), Lafayette, and McLaren (SF) bike parks. They have also conducted trail design, planning and construction workshops around the country for virtually every major federal land management agency in the United States, including the National Park Service, National Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, and the Army Corps of Engineers. We had Hilride come out and take a look last month and Nat agreed to come on as the design and construction lead. Obviously we're really excited about having Hilride design the new Sunset reroute and know that it's going to be a awesome improvement.

    Yesterday five of us did the initial route design and planning to be out early next week to pin the trail and do some corridor clearing. This will give everyone a change to see the new design which I know is going to be very cool. We're hoping to move forward with actual construction in May before the dirt dries out and be finished early June. We'll most definitely be looking for help with construction and posting work days as the project firms up.
    Last edited by oparks; 04-13-2013 at 07:36 PM.

  12. #12
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    A thoughtful man might have asked a few questions before casting aspersions.
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  13. #13
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    I won't miss it, but primarily because I could never clear the damn thing. Then again, as I'm getting older, I despise more and more 15% grade climbs.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    A thoughtful man might have asked a few questions before casting aspersions.
    It is fair and proper that a public debate be had - when BTCEB or any other organization (that supposedly represents us) endeavors to destroy a trail valued by so many.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    I won't miss it, but primarily because I could never clear the damn thing. Then again, as I'm getting older, I despise more and more 15% grade climbs.
    It's considered poor form to sanitize trails simply because you can't ride them.
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  16. #16
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    It's not being sanitized. It's being decommissioned for enviro reasons. I wouldn't call it a "trail" either. It's just a challenge... and pretty much a challenge that 95% of mt. bikers can't do.

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  17. #17
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    Should $2 Dollar Hill in Joaquin Miller be Removed/Destroyed?

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    It's considered poor form to sanitize trails simply because you can't ride them.
    He said he's getting older. Perhaps he can't get his walker up steep climbs anymore.


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  18. #18
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    I totally agree that this merits discussion. $2 Hill means a lot to people but that is not what you did. You denigrated people and their efforts for this community from a position of ignorance. You just struck out without making any effort to try and understand what happened and how things got to this point.
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  19. #19
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    Re: Should $2 Dollar Hill in Joaquin Miller be Removed/Destroyed?

    Clearly, it is replaced to accommodate my old age. I also plan on asking for a lift soon to get back to the top.

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    I totally agree that this merits discussion. $2 Hill means a lot to people but that is not what you did. You denigrated people and their efforts for this community from a position of ignorance. You just struck out without making any effort to try and understand what happened and how things got to this point.
    What happened and how did things get to this point?

    Reading the other thread this sounds like it's a BTCEB driven idea that has been kept on the down low until it was sprung on the east bay riding community as a fait accompli.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justsome_NICA_dad View Post
    What happened and how did things get to this point?

    Reading the other thread this sounds like it's a BTCEB driven idea that has been kept on the down low until it was sprung on the east bay riding community as a fait accompli.
    "So I think it not the discussion that is so hard to manage but the idea that we end up not being a party to the solution which failed to consider the values revealed by 100 contributors. What we did see was a lack of a accountability and some sense that privilege makes that possible. "

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  22. #22
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    The project, on a JMP Wish list for 10 years, had a pretty good head of steam motivated by a number of stakeholders. It was going to happen with us or without us. We happened to be there and offered our help. You knew when we knew.

    We could have just left it for them to do...

    And iHeart, you keep trying but your quote is apropos of nothing.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 04-16-2013 at 09:27 PM.
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  23. #23
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    I see no problem with the plan to build a new connector trail, one that will be rideable uphill for most mere mortals and will be a little more interesting on the downhill.

    I haven't heard that $2 hill trail is to be closed/destroyed/returned to nature when the new trail is done. Where does that assumption come from?

  24. #24
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    Not sure, really. They want to restore the creek bed ultimately. I'm guessing it wil be off-limits in some fashion; we know how well that works in JMP.
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  25. #25
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    Gone to Cabo compadres!
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  26. #26
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    What would really be cool for JMP is to build a trail which traverses the park similar to French trail in Redwood. It would snake back and forth several times adding up to a nice long XC type of experience.

  27. #27
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    since a majority of riders will take the 'new line' wouldn't it be safe to assume that the traffic/ruts/wear problem on $2 hill will be mitigated to the point of sustainability?

    If so, why not get a group together to fund a sign pointing out this uphill only section as a 'Challenge' and keep it open....I think it'd be neat to see a sign that basically reads 'you are awesome if you can clean $2 hill'

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  28. #28
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    I will miss it. Legal challenges are few and far between in the east bay. But as it was coming closer and closer to merging with the stream over the years, I can understand why it was going to be removed for environmental reasons.


    Quote Originally Posted by Czar Chasm View Post
    It's not being sanitized. It's being decommissioned for enviro reasons. I wouldn't call it a "trail" either. It's just a challenge... and pretty much a challenge that 95% of mt. bikers can't do.
    If that is true, my already-huge ego is going to grow to unmanageable proportions.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    BTCEB has apparently been working on a re-route of $2 Dollar Hill for some time now, and finally succeeded in getting permission to re-route Sunset Trail away from this challenging feature.

    $2 Dollar Hill in my opinion is worthy of preservation, simply due to it's history and reputation of being a challenging hill to climb.

    It sure would be nice if the BTCEB would make public, plans like these and put them up for debate - before endeavoring to ruin one of the best known hill climbs in the Bay Area.

    While it may be too little, too late - go ahead and vote. How ever symbolically.

    For those not familiar with the trail- here's a few samples from Youtube and Vimeo

    *vid link*
    Dang, I was just there yesterday, and rode that. Heh... I rode down (which I think is actually kinda fun) and walked my singlespeed up. I have yet to clean it, and would still love the opportunity to keep working it until I do.

    What is the motivation behind the re-route? Is it that it is 'too hard', or is it erosion issues?

    I can see erosion. The dirt around that rock is constantly changing, developing new ruts, rivers, etc. I don't see that as a real problem, unless we are talking about being unstable enough to be unsafe... like threatening a landslide.

    I say keep it as-is. I need to clean it before it goes away.

    Wait... are they talking about making it go away, or just a 'chicken run' around it?
    Last edited by pimpbot; 04-17-2013 at 10:21 AM.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    It's considered poor form to sanitize trails simply because you can't ride them.
    True Dat.

    However, this is a multi-use trail in a city park. Not that I actually want them to 'fix' anything, I'm just being devil's advocate.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katana View Post
    What would really be cool for JMP is to build a trail which traverses the park similar to French trail in Redwood. It would snake back and forth several times adding up to a nice long XC type of experience.
    Great, except French Trail is off-limits to bikes.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    Dang, I was just there yesterday, and rode that. Heh... I rode down (which I think is actually kinda fun) and walked my singlespeed up. I have yet to clean it, and would still love the opportunity to keep working it until I do.

    What is the motivation behind the re-route? Is it that it is 'too hard', or is it erosion issues?

    I can see erosion. The dirt around that rock is constantly changing, developing new ruts, rivers, etc. I don't see that as a real problem, unless we are talking about being unstable enough to be unsafe... like threatening a landslide.

    I say keep it as-is. I need to clean it before it goes away.

    Wait... are they talking about making it go away, or just a 'chicken run' around it?
    Waiti
    ng at SFO......

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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    since a majority of riders will take the 'new line' wouldn't it be safe to assume that the traffic/ruts/wear problem on $2 hill will be mitigated to the point of sustainability?

    If so, why not get a group together to fund a sign pointing out this uphill only section as a 'Challenge' and keep it open....I think it'd be neat to see a sign that basically reads 'you are awesome if you can clean $2 hill'

    my .02
    Guys, go ride it now. The grip doesn't any better. You, too, can be awesome.

    The base of $2 Hill is in the creek bed.

    I think we need to have a Last Day of $2 Hill party.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katana View Post
    What would really be cool for JMP is to build a trail which traverses the park similar to French trail in Redwood. It would snake back and forth several times adding up to a nice long XC type of experience.
    I feel this way about many downhills but JMP would make for some very interesting traverses, switchbacks and such. Someone should make a plan, build a support base, get cosy with the neighbors and the management, and start buying tools.

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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    Dang, I was just there yesterday, and rode that.

    What is the motivation behind the re-route? Is it that it is 'too hard', or is it erosion issues?

    I can see erosion. The dirt around that rock is constantly changing, developing new ruts, rivers, etc. I don't see that as a real problem, unless we are talking about being unstable enough to be unsafe...
    It's not being rerouted because it's to hard or unsafe. It's because the trail lies in the creek bed, has been getting wider and wider over the years, is way over grade, and has some nasty rutting. One of the reason it has gotten so much wider is because everyone keeps riding to the left (going up hill) where it's a lot easier, instead of staying on the (very difficult) rock wall, which is where the trail actual is.

    I also rode in the park this last weekend. Started down in Dimond Canyon and had a hand and foot dab in the narrow section. (The 2nd switchback from the top is my nemesis.) I didn't even try the stairs heading down from Bridegview to Monterey Blvd, which is certainly doable this direction, but not for the faint of heard (which I was on this day). I did make $2 Hill. So on a 10 mile ride, $2 Hill wasn't even the hardest section.

    Mike cleared $2 Hill on Friday. So when you have two old farts (both over 50) clearing $2 Hill, hardly should we be all teary eyed about a reroute. What I find amusing about all the hand ringing over "sanitizing" the trail is that this is actually the easiest route to the top of the park. Try riding up Cinderella, Chaparral, or move 50 yards south and ride up Upper PC, and $2 Hill looks easy.

    I realize that $2 Hill is well know among local cyclists. The video posted at the beginning of this thread (of the unicyclist) which I guess is suppose to show the iconic nature of the "hill" was shot by me. But lets keep things in perspective. We'll be replacing 100' of rutted out wide trail with a sweet singletrack, which I can guarantee will be a lot more compelling to the vast majority of riders that what they're riding (or pushing) now.

    If after the trail is closed and you're jonesing for a technical climb, do as Morgan suggest and try the rock wall on (Little) Big Trees or as Empty Beer suggested the climb between Dunn Trail and Sequoia Point. (I always call this Horse Poop Trail because of the manure dump at the top.) Or heck just ride up West Ridge, not very technical, but at least worthy of the term "hill climb".
    Last edited by oparks; 04-17-2013 at 11:10 PM.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by oparks View Post
    It's not being rerouted because it's to hard or unsafe. It's because the trail lies in the creek bed, has been getting wider and wider over the years, is way over grade, and has some nasty rutting. One of the reason it has gotten so much wider is because everyone keep riding to the left (going up hill) where it's a lot easier, instead of staying on (very difficult) rock wall, which is where the trail actual is.

    I also rode in the park this last weekend. Started down in Dimond Canyon and had a hand and foot dab in the narrow section. (The 2nd switchback from the top is my nemesis.) I didn't even try the stairs heading down from Bridegview to Monterey Blvd, which is certainly doable this direction, but not for the faint of heard (which I was on this day). I did make $2 Hill. So on a 10 mile ride, $2 Hill wasn't even the hardest section.

    Mike cleared $2 Hill on Friday. So when you have two old farts (both over 50) clearing $2 Hill, hardly should we be all teary eyed about a reroute. What I find amusing about all the hand ringing over "sanitizing" the trail is that this is actually the easiest route to the top of the park. Try riding up Cinderella, Chaparral, or move 50 yards south and ride up Upper PC, and $2 Hill looks easy.

    I realize that $2 Hill is well know among local cyclists. The video posted at the beginning of this thread (of the unicyclist) which I guess is suppose to show the iconic nature of the "hill" was shot by me. But lets keep things in perspective. We'll be replacing 100' of rutted out wide trail with a sweet singletrack, which I can guarantee will be a lot more compelling to the vast majority of riders that what they're riding (or pushing) now.

    If after the trail is closed and you're jonesing for a technical climb, do as Morgan suggest and try the rock wall on (Little) Big Trees or as Empty Beer suggested the climb between Dunn Trail and Sequoia Point. (I always call this Horse Poop Trail because of the manure dump at the top.) Or heck just ride up West Ridge, not very technical, but at least worthy of the term "hill climb".
    I dunno... all things considered, I still see it as a loss. I wish there was some way to keep it there, but I understand that environmental reasons overrule all.

    And just because you and BMike can clean it doesn't mean it isn't challenging to the rest of us lesser mortals, and therefore no big deal, and we shouldn't feel bad about it going away.

    And I still haven't made it up. I've tried. I would really like to, so I keep working at it. Once I get it, Little Trees uphill will be my next whale to spear.

    I love Dimond Canyon. When I lived in Glennview, that was the start of almost all of my rides. I can just about clean the whole thing, except for that last switchback at the top of Bridgeview.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    I dunno... all things considered, I still see it as a loss. I wish there was some way to keep it there, but I understand that environmental reasons overrule all.
    And there you have it, in a nutshell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grundy View Post
    And there you have it, in a nutshell.
    It is a loss; no doubt about it. There were those who were unhappy about removing some of the bootlegs and jumps on Bishop's Walk (causing terrible drainage BTW) and some of the changes to Big Trees but they have worked out nicely.

    Getting things to change takes an enormous effort. No one who knows anything about advocacy will argue that. Sometimes things start to change independent of our actions and all we can do is try to effect this with our desires. I think our accommodations are pretty dammed good. At bottom you have people who know what they are doing put their backs into these changes.

    I don' think anyone doubts we will do our best.
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    This whole situation is disheartening and might be evidence of complacence within the well-organized advocacy group that claims to represent East Bay mountain bikers. Or maybe it's just going with the flow after enduring years of brow beating by the parks staff, disingenuous Oakland politicos, psychotic JMP "stakeholders," etc.

    Back in the day, when the FOSC dweebs and the corpulent HOHAs cried that "erosion was killing the salmon" and that mountain bikers were destroying the creeks, redwoods, and the ability to safely enjoy the park the BTCEB stood up to this idiocy.

    In a big way.

    Once a neutral third party chimed in with actual science-based facts the whining ninnies were shown to be utterly clueless.

    "Watercourses
    The watercourses in Joaquin Miller park we
    re found to be in excellent condition. The
    four main creeks that drain the redwood forest
    in the southern portion of the park have
    steep channel gradients, deep v-shaped
    canyons, and often flow on bedrock. These
    channels have occasional bank fa
    ilures related to saturated
    slopes and high stream flow.
    The stream that parallels the Cinderella Trai
    l upstream of the junction with Sunset Trail
    has steep valley walls and has had natural
    bank failures caused by high flows. Upstream
    of erosion feature 10, the creek has a shallo
    wer gradient, thick br
    ush, and no landslide or
    bank failure problems. We noted no major
    effect of recreati
    onal land use on these
    channels.
    Palo Seco Creek itself has a relatively sh
    allow channel gradient through the Upper
    Meadow and Lower Meadow areas. The channel
    gradient of this cree
    k is steeper north of
    the Sinawik Cabin. This portion of the
    creek has experienced a few stream bank
    landslides that have contributed large volumes
    of sediment to the creek in the past. One
    of these landslides, erosion feature 4, occu
    rred within the past few winters and the
    majority of the sediment is still present in the stream channel."

    http://www.btceb.org/pdf/jmp_report.pdf for the full story.

    I'm surprised that the BTCEB folks apparently did not throw these facts out when covertly discussing this sanitization with the FOJMP, staff, etc.

    Maybe it's burnout. I don't know but the end result makes me regret the amount of time I spent fighting the same fight years ago, only to have the current BTCEB leadership apparently cave to the uneducated HOHAs.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by oparks View Post
    If after the trail is closed and you're jonesing for a technical climb, do as Morgan suggest and try the rock wall on (Little) Big Trees or as Empty Beer suggested the climb between Dunn Trail and Sequoia Point.
    We call the trail from Sequoia point to Dunn "Circus", cause going down it is kinda like riding through a three ring circus...now I gotta try up it again.
    BTW I made it up 2DH once years ago, been hoping for a repeat ever since.
    but I think the reroute is a good idea.

  41. #41
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    This whole situation is disheartening and might be evidence of complacence within the well-organized advocacy group that claims to represent East Bay mountain bikers. Or maybe it's just going with the flow after enduring years of brow beating by the parks staff, disingenuous Oakland politicos, psychotic JMP "stakeholders," etc.

    Back in the day, when the FOSC dweebs and the corpulent HOHAs cried that "erosion was killing the salmon" and that mountain bikers were destroying the creeks, redwoods, and the ability to safely enjoy the park the BTCEB stood up to this idiocy.

    In a big way.

    Once a neutral third party chimed in with actual science-based facts the whining ninnies were shown to be utterly clueless.

    "Watercourses
    The watercourses in Joaquin Miller park we
    re found to be in excellent condition. The
    four main creeks that drain the redwood forest
    in the southern portion of the park have
    steep channel gradients, deep v-shaped
    canyons, and often flow on bedrock. These
    channels have occasional bank fa
    ilures related to saturated
    slopes and high stream flow.
    The stream that parallels the Cinderella Trai
    l upstream of the junction with Sunset Trail
    has steep valley walls and has had natural
    bank failures caused by high flows. Upstream
    of erosion feature 10, the creek has a shallo
    wer gradient, thick br
    ush, and no landslide or
    bank failure problems. We noted no major
    effect of recreati
    onal land use on these
    channels.
    Palo Seco Creek itself has a relatively sh
    allow channel gradient through the Upper
    Meadow and Lower Meadow areas. The channel
    gradient of this cree
    k is steeper north of
    the Sinawik Cabin. This portion of the
    creek has experienced a few stream bank
    landslides that have contributed large volumes
    of sediment to the creek in the past. One
    of these landslides, erosion feature 4, occu
    rred within the past few winters and the
    majority of the sediment is still present in the stream channel."

    http://www.btceb.org/pdf/jmp_report.pdf for the full story.

    I'm surprised that the BTCEB folks apparently did not throw these facts out when covertly discussing this sanitization with the FOJMP, staff, etc.

    Maybe it's burnout. I don't know but the end result makes me regret the amount of time I spent fighting the same fight years ago, only to have the current BTCEB leadership apparently cave to the uneducated HOHAs.
    .........................................


    Please forgive all typos, mispellings and such: Cabo sun, margaritas, leaping manta rays, and my man, Francisco, who is taking great care of us, lend to a casual expression. MM
    This is a great piece of history; even pivotal. c2000. Eric Mueler, then prez of the BTCEB, Treasurer Brent Englund (future prez), the most excellent videographer Pete Fangerlin, and I (current prez) were in attendance for the reading of this study on what was causing wear at JMP. The organization chosen to do this analysis was selected by the HOHAs and the extensive study, which cost quite a few bucks and was pretty thorough, concluded that mountain bikers were not the problem. It was bootleg hikers, bad trail design, and invasive species that were the worst problems. This was the true beginning of end zone dancing. One of the HOHAs started to make an attack from another direction and I looked him in the eye and said, "dude, you got beat, now why don't you just shut up." He did.
    However, this quote does not pertain to this discussion in terms of the causes of the reroute at issue. What is on the table is a reroute away from a trail, that enjoys some novelty popularity, which goes directly through a creek bed, generally used in the uphill direction, and up a crumbly hill up which few people can ride. The solution being offered is a series of switchbacks purchasing the hillside connecting Sequoia-Bayview to the Sunset Trail further to the north. There is no arguement about whether the trail goes through the creek bed (see the excellent photo illustration in contribution #11.) Stopping such clear environmental motivations is not in the cards. Rather, we take the opportunity to manage and execute the reroute which results in a well-designed and constructed option which affords opportunity for true two-way travel (not that common in JMP grades) useful for a much broader range of riders.
    The criticism of the recent BTCEB advocacy is perfectly valid but, simply, outside current thinking. It harkens from a time when fine advocates beat their heads against the stubborn bulwarks of tradition, institutional rigidity, the privilage of old relationships, reactionary resistance, and walked away shaking their heads. Frankly, there just wasn't much chance of doing anything given that political climate. That circumstance impacted with simple attitudes of riteous confrontation, expecting that "truth" would will out, and precious little came our way. At that time we just couldn't see that. Our ranks thinned but you can still hear those voices once in a while.
    Things have changed. We have refused to go away and are outlasting so many of the people and ideas that held us in check. We are more politically agile, have more influence and more places at more tables, there are many, many more of us, and we are better placed in society. And what is possible has changed. But that doesn't mean that the gates of heaven are flying open. Nor does it guarantee that people will like the changes that come. As an advocacy group we can only hope that people will understand that we are giving it our best shot.
    What has not changed is the need for people to be involved in meaningful ways. What hasn't changed is the limited number of people who take this up, who do the front line work over the years, and understand the process of building opinion.
    What hasn't changed is the challenge of embracing so many perspectives from so many people who love our sport, who want the very best, and of conveying us all through the machinations to get where we hope to go. We are lucky to have this at all.
    Ride well today to ride better tomorrow.



    .
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 04-26-2013 at 02:31 PM.
    I don't rattle.

  42. #42
    ballbuster
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    Heh... some asshat negative repped me for this.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justsome_NICA_dad View Post
    This whole situation is disheartening and might be evidence of complacence within the well-organized advocacy group that claims to represent East Bay mountain bikers.

    I'm surprised that the BTCEB folks apparently did not throw these facts out when covertly discussing this sanitization with the FOJMP, staff, etc.
    Rerouting a crappy ass rutted trail does not equate to complacency or sanitization. Nor are ruts a wonderful technical challenge. It's a **** little hill with a 12' wide trail that's going to replaced with a much longer, narrow trail that switchbacks up into the chaparral. If you love rutted out fire roads there are plenty over in Redwood Park to keep you happy for years.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by oparks View Post
    Rerouting a crappy ass rutted trail does not equate to complacency or sanitization. Nor are ruts a wonderful technical challenge. It's a **** little hill with a 12' wide trail that's going to replaced with a much longer, narrow trail that switchbacks up into the chaparral. If you love rutted out fire roads there are plenty over in Redwood Park to keep you happy for years.
    You missed the point many times there.

    Some folks like a technical challenge like $2 hill. Equating $2 hill with a rutted out fireroad aka Redwood's offerings is ridiculous and you know better than that. Rerouting to a series of switchbacks and closing the existing route certainly is sanitizing.

    Oh well, another BTCEB "victory" to add to the timeline on the website...

  45. #45
    ballbuster
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    Quote Originally Posted by oparks View Post
    Rerouting a crappy ass rutted trail does not equate to complacency or sanitization. Nor are ruts a wonderful technical challenge. It's a **** little hill with a 12' wide trail that's going to replaced with a much longer, narrow trail that switchbacks up into the chaparral. If you love rutted out fire roads there are plenty over in Redwood Park to keep you happy for years.
    Well, I don't agree that it's just another rutted crappy fireroad like so much of the fireroad in Redwood Park. I think it's a challenge that many of my riding buds look forward to cleaning.

    You can call it a crappy piece of worthless 12' trail all you want, but I don't think it makes anybody else feel any better about losing it.

  46. #46
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    It's a challenge but it's not that interesting. Making all the switchbacks in Dimond canyon, now that's a real challenge. I think the reaction to this loss is more a symptom of how little interesting riding we have in the east bay.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justsome_NICA_dad View Post
    You missed the point many times there.

    Some folks like a technical challenge like $2 hill. Equating $2 hill with a rutted out fireroad aka Redwood's offerings is ridiculous and you know better than that. Rerouting to a series of switchbacks and closing the existing route certainly is sanitizing.

    Oh well, another BTCEB "victory" to add to the timeline on the website...
    I've ridden my share of fall line rutted trails throughout the east bay, and can't say I find them all that fun. If you like the challenge of riding in ruts so be it - mt bikers are a diverse group. However the most sustainable trails are rolling contour, with an alignment perpendicular to the fall line, with grade reversals, gradual grade and outsloped tread. Give me a sweet narrow sustainable trail over an eroded, widened, rutted mess any day.

    I'm sorry you don't understand that trails benefit from routine maintenance, with the goal of getting water off the trail, and keeper users on it. Having the trail in the creek bed has resulted in neither of these happening over many years. (As I've already posted, having the trail in the creek bed does not allow for ANY work to be done now or in the future.)

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by oparks View Post
    I'm sorry you don't understand that trails benefit from routine maintenance, with the goal of getting water off the trail, and keeper users on it.
    Making this kind of stuff up does not help your case one bit.

    Of course I understand that some trails can benefit from routine maintenance. To claim that folks don't understand this is extremely disingenuous.

    The point that you continue to miss is that many folks* do not consider closing a fun technical climbing challenge (one of the few legal ones in the East Bay) to be "routine maintenance."

    *approximately 2/3rds of the folks that responded to this highly scientific poll.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    Well, I don't agree that it's just another rutted crappy fireroad like so much of the fireroad in Redwood Park. I think it's a challenge that many of my riding buds look forward to cleaning.

    You can call it a crappy piece of worthless 12' trail all you want, but I don't think it makes anybody else feel any better about losing it.
    But you will feel better when there's a cool, sustainable, narrow trail. This isn't just about what you're going to lose, it's also about what is going to replace $2 Hill. I heard all the same complaints when Big Trees was rerouted. "It's sanitizing the trails! Don't take out the double dips, it's a challenge!" Now everyone says "Wow this is so cool, we got a bunch of new trail." We lost a short rutted hill and fire road wide trail and replaced it with a narrow trail that winds through the redwoods.

    I get it, riders are going to miss the challenge. But this isn't taking the hardest climb in the park and sanitizing it to make it easy for wimps. It's taking the EASIEST route (from the bottom of the park to the top) and rerouting it with a longer, narrower trail that has the added benefit of popping out into the chaparral (and sun) while offering some cool views. So while like you, I'll miss the challenge of $2 Hill, IMO it's worth losing because the replacement is going to be more fun.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justsome_NICA_dad View Post
    Making this kind of stuff up does not help your case one bit.
    I have no case to make with someone who joined MTBr last week to tell me that BTC is complacence, cyclists are brow beating by park staff, FOSC are dweebs, I don't know the facts, and am covertly sanitization the trails against the vast wishes of east bay cyclists. It's fairly obvious you know dick about the situation. I've been with two of the best trail designers and builders in the bay area looking at this trail in the last couple months. And you are who? Some clown on the internet.

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