View Poll Results: Should $2 Dollar Hill Be Re-Routed/Removed?

Voters
59. This poll is closed
  • Yes, re-route it. It will be better

    21 35.59%
  • No, keep it. This trail is historic!

    19 32.20%
  • Find some comprimse that keeps it, but provides an easier option

    21 35.59%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #1
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    Should $2 Dollar Hill in Joaquin Miller be Removed/Destroyed?

    BTCEB has apparently been working on a re-route of $2 Dollar Hill for some time now, and finally succeeded in getting permission to re-route Sunset Trail away from this challenging feature.

    $2 Dollar Hill in my opinion is worthy of preservation, simply due to it's history and reputation of being a challenging hill to climb.

    It sure would be nice if the BTCEB would make public, plans like these and put them up for debate - before endeavoring to ruin one of the best known hill climbs in the Bay Area.

    While it may be too little, too late - go ahead and vote. How ever symbolically.

    For those not familiar with the trail- here's a few samples from Youtube and Vimeo

    Two Dollar Hill - YouTube
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  2. #2
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    looks like the number videos we're allowed to post are limited - but here's more


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  3. #3
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    Unicyclists on $2 hill! (BTCEB's own video)
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  4. #4
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    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

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  5. #5
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    FWIW, I recall hearing about this reroute quite some time ago (4-6 months?), and I don't live in the area anymore (going on 14 years). Maybe I read it on mtbr? As a former JMP regular and sentimental guy to boot, yeah it's a bummer if it goes, but not a huge loss in the grand scheme of things.

    Out of hundreds of rides in JMP, I can't recall ever going down $2 Hill...

    Maybe make that nasty climb between Dunn Trail and Sequoia Point the new $1.99 Hill?


  6. #6
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    I ran into Brent and the Hilride guys yesterday morning, they had just finished flagging it appeared. I myself think that there would be no problem on rider's attitudes if the $2 hill section was left alone, and perhaps signed as "uphill only" for cyclists. Having another trail that turns off to allow a more easily rideable route is a great idea - but leave the challenge for those looking for it! I've ridden down it a few times, and it's just a steep, short, rocky hill. Palos Colorado is much more fun to pick your way down the roots, IMO. Been about 7 years since I've made it up $2 hill, but once I decide to get another geared bike, it might be worth taking a serious shot at it again. Be nice if it was still there.
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  7. #7
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    Part of me says, " Hell no, it must stay! It's a classic!" Then another part of me says, "Phew, I won't have to walk that again".
    I'm not sure how this works.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATBScott View Post
    I ran into Brent and the Hilride guys yesterday morning, they had just finished flagging it appeared. I myself think that there would be no problem on rider's attitudes if the $2 hill section was left alone, and perhaps signed as "uphill only" for cyclists. Having another trail that turns off to allow a more easily rideable route is a great idea - but leave the challenge for those looking for it! I've ridden down it a few times, and it's just a steep, short, rocky hill. Palos Colorado is much more fun to pick your way down the roots, IMO. Been about 7 years since I've made it up $2 hill, but once I decide to get another geared bike, it might be worth taking a serious shot at it again. Be nice if it was still there.
    Yah, it's really not fun riding down - but it is a challenge riding up. I dont see how keeping it could hurt anything.

    It's an old logging road, right? That means it's been there a hundred years or so? Seems like it's lasted pretty well!
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  9. #9
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    Keep it i say, for my selfish reason - I rarely make it out there but getting close to cleaning it climbing!

    I think most mtb appreciate the challenge it provides and it's rare in these parts.

  10. #10
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    I'm of two minds on this. I use a 1x10 on my current MTB, so going up $2 means I'm pushing. On a bike with a granny it's definitely a fun challenge, so I wouldn't necessarily want to see it closed completely. But I also wonder if the MTB community could score some points by supporting the closure and re-vegetation of the really eroded stretch. It wouldn't have a huge impact on overall erosion in the park, but it could be a PR win. I suppose it comes down to how well-planned the reroute is...if Hilride is on board, it should be legit.

  11. #11
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    Yes there is a plan to reroute Sunset Trail a bit west of $2 Hill up to Sequoia-Bayview Trail. The primary purpose of this project is to provide a more sustainable and user friendly trail which currently lies in the creek bed of Palo Seco Creek and is substantially over grade.

    As has been mentioned this project has been talked about for many, many years. For over ten years I was a board member for BTCEB, four as President, and I have been the vice-chair of the Friends of Joaquin Miller Park (FOJMP) for the last two years. During this time I had the opportunity to talk and interact with many hundreds (if not thousands) of Bay Area cyclists. And while I certainly haven't talked to ever mountain biker in the east bay, I have had numerous conversations on $2 Hill over the years. Both with those that wanted to work on rerouting or repairing this section of trail and others who wanted it left alone. And I've personally been reluctant to tackle this trail because of my own conflicting views. But the idea that this reroute has suddenly been thrust upon local riders without any input is simply not true.

    One of the reason that this trail has just been left alone is that it lies in the creek bed of Palo Seco Creek. This made getting permission to work on the trail very difficult as the permitting process to work in a creek is a real bear. Over the years the trail has widened and is now about 12' wide and developed some really nasty rutting.
    Should  Dollar Hill in Joaquin Miller be Removed/Destroyed?-sunset01.jpg

    Last year the FOJMP flagged this area as one of the top three areas in the park that needed attention. There is a fair amount of back story that I won't get into, but suffice to say the writing was on the wall that momentum was growing for this trail to be rerouted. Knowing this, the question was should we stand around and do nothing, actively fight against the idea, or get out in front and lead on the project. BTC choose the later and in January had Jim Jacobson come out and we walked the area with park management and laid out a rough reroute up the northern slope. But Jim was super busy with the Flow Trail and while he was willing to pin out a new trail wasn't able to come on board with construction. (Jim build the "switchback trail" in Dimond Park and did the design work for all the major reroutes in the Park over the last decade.)

    But as luck would have it another one of the Bay Areas primer trail building group, Hilride Progression Development Group, LLC, recently relocated to Oakland and were excited about doing a local project. If you don't know about Hilride they are the designers behind the Stafford Lake (Marin), Lafayette, and McLaren (SF) bike parks. They have also conducted trail design, planning and construction workshops around the country for virtually every major federal land management agency in the United States, including the National Park Service, National Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, and the Army Corps of Engineers. We had Hilride come out and take a look last month and Nat agreed to come on as the design and construction lead. Obviously we're really excited about having Hilride design the new Sunset reroute and know that it's going to be a awesome improvement.

    Yesterday five of us did the initial route design and planning to be out early next week to pin the trail and do some corridor clearing. This will give everyone a change to see the new design which I know is going to be very cool. We're hoping to move forward with actual construction in May before the dirt dries out and be finished early June. We'll most definitely be looking for help with construction and posting work days as the project firms up.
    Last edited by oparks; 04-13-2013 at 07:36 PM.

  12. #12
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    A thoughtful man might have asked a few questions before casting aspersions.
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  13. #13
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    I won't miss it, but primarily because I could never clear the damn thing. Then again, as I'm getting older, I despise more and more 15% grade climbs.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    A thoughtful man might have asked a few questions before casting aspersions.
    It is fair and proper that a public debate be had - when BTCEB or any other organization (that supposedly represents us) endeavors to destroy a trail valued by so many.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    I won't miss it, but primarily because I could never clear the damn thing. Then again, as I'm getting older, I despise more and more 15% grade climbs.
    It's considered poor form to sanitize trails simply because you can't ride them.
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  16. #16
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    It's not being sanitized. It's being decommissioned for enviro reasons. I wouldn't call it a "trail" either. It's just a challenge... and pretty much a challenge that 95% of mt. bikers can't do.

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  17. #17
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    Should $2 Dollar Hill in Joaquin Miller be Removed/Destroyed?

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    It's considered poor form to sanitize trails simply because you can't ride them.
    He said he's getting older. Perhaps he can't get his walker up steep climbs anymore.


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  18. #18
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    I totally agree that this merits discussion. $2 Hill means a lot to people but that is not what you did. You denigrated people and their efforts for this community from a position of ignorance. You just struck out without making any effort to try and understand what happened and how things got to this point.
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  19. #19
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    Re: Should $2 Dollar Hill in Joaquin Miller be Removed/Destroyed?

    Clearly, it is replaced to accommodate my old age. I also plan on asking for a lift soon to get back to the top.

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    I totally agree that this merits discussion. $2 Hill means a lot to people but that is not what you did. You denigrated people and their efforts for this community from a position of ignorance. You just struck out without making any effort to try and understand what happened and how things got to this point.
    What happened and how did things get to this point?

    Reading the other thread this sounds like it's a BTCEB driven idea that has been kept on the down low until it was sprung on the east bay riding community as a fait accompli.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justsome_NICA_dad View Post
    What happened and how did things get to this point?

    Reading the other thread this sounds like it's a BTCEB driven idea that has been kept on the down low until it was sprung on the east bay riding community as a fait accompli.
    "So I think it not the discussion that is so hard to manage but the idea that we end up not being a party to the solution which failed to consider the values revealed by 100 contributors. What we did see was a lack of a accountability and some sense that privilege makes that possible. "

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  22. #22
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    The project, on a JMP Wish list for 10 years, had a pretty good head of steam motivated by a number of stakeholders. It was going to happen with us or without us. We happened to be there and offered our help. You knew when we knew.

    We could have just left it for them to do...

    And iHeart, you keep trying but your quote is apropos of nothing.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 04-16-2013 at 09:27 PM.
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  23. #23
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    I see no problem with the plan to build a new connector trail, one that will be rideable uphill for most mere mortals and will be a little more interesting on the downhill.

    I haven't heard that $2 hill trail is to be closed/destroyed/returned to nature when the new trail is done. Where does that assumption come from?

  24. #24
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    Not sure, really. They want to restore the creek bed ultimately. I'm guessing it wil be off-limits in some fashion; we know how well that works in JMP.
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  25. #25
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    Gone to Cabo compadres!
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  26. #26
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    What would really be cool for JMP is to build a trail which traverses the park similar to French trail in Redwood. It would snake back and forth several times adding up to a nice long XC type of experience.

  27. #27
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    since a majority of riders will take the 'new line' wouldn't it be safe to assume that the traffic/ruts/wear problem on $2 hill will be mitigated to the point of sustainability?

    If so, why not get a group together to fund a sign pointing out this uphill only section as a 'Challenge' and keep it open....I think it'd be neat to see a sign that basically reads 'you are awesome if you can clean $2 hill'

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  28. #28
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    I will miss it. Legal challenges are few and far between in the east bay. But as it was coming closer and closer to merging with the stream over the years, I can understand why it was going to be removed for environmental reasons.


    Quote Originally Posted by Czar Chasm View Post
    It's not being sanitized. It's being decommissioned for enviro reasons. I wouldn't call it a "trail" either. It's just a challenge... and pretty much a challenge that 95% of mt. bikers can't do.
    If that is true, my already-huge ego is going to grow to unmanageable proportions.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    BTCEB has apparently been working on a re-route of $2 Dollar Hill for some time now, and finally succeeded in getting permission to re-route Sunset Trail away from this challenging feature.

    $2 Dollar Hill in my opinion is worthy of preservation, simply due to it's history and reputation of being a challenging hill to climb.

    It sure would be nice if the BTCEB would make public, plans like these and put them up for debate - before endeavoring to ruin one of the best known hill climbs in the Bay Area.

    While it may be too little, too late - go ahead and vote. How ever symbolically.

    For those not familiar with the trail- here's a few samples from Youtube and Vimeo

    *vid link*
    Dang, I was just there yesterday, and rode that. Heh... I rode down (which I think is actually kinda fun) and walked my singlespeed up. I have yet to clean it, and would still love the opportunity to keep working it until I do.

    What is the motivation behind the re-route? Is it that it is 'too hard', or is it erosion issues?

    I can see erosion. The dirt around that rock is constantly changing, developing new ruts, rivers, etc. I don't see that as a real problem, unless we are talking about being unstable enough to be unsafe... like threatening a landslide.

    I say keep it as-is. I need to clean it before it goes away.

    Wait... are they talking about making it go away, or just a 'chicken run' around it?
    Last edited by pimpbot; 04-17-2013 at 10:21 AM.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    It's considered poor form to sanitize trails simply because you can't ride them.
    True Dat.

    However, this is a multi-use trail in a city park. Not that I actually want them to 'fix' anything, I'm just being devil's advocate.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katana View Post
    What would really be cool for JMP is to build a trail which traverses the park similar to French trail in Redwood. It would snake back and forth several times adding up to a nice long XC type of experience.
    Great, except French Trail is off-limits to bikes.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    Dang, I was just there yesterday, and rode that. Heh... I rode down (which I think is actually kinda fun) and walked my singlespeed up. I have yet to clean it, and would still love the opportunity to keep working it until I do.

    What is the motivation behind the re-route? Is it that it is 'too hard', or is it erosion issues?

    I can see erosion. The dirt around that rock is constantly changing, developing new ruts, rivers, etc. I don't see that as a real problem, unless we are talking about being unstable enough to be unsafe... like threatening a landslide.

    I say keep it as-is. I need to clean it before it goes away.

    Wait... are they talking about making it go away, or just a 'chicken run' around it?
    Waiti
    ng at SFO......

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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    since a majority of riders will take the 'new line' wouldn't it be safe to assume that the traffic/ruts/wear problem on $2 hill will be mitigated to the point of sustainability?

    If so, why not get a group together to fund a sign pointing out this uphill only section as a 'Challenge' and keep it open....I think it'd be neat to see a sign that basically reads 'you are awesome if you can clean $2 hill'

    my .02
    Guys, go ride it now. The grip doesn't any better. You, too, can be awesome.

    The base of $2 Hill is in the creek bed.

    I think we need to have a Last Day of $2 Hill party.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katana View Post
    What would really be cool for JMP is to build a trail which traverses the park similar to French trail in Redwood. It would snake back and forth several times adding up to a nice long XC type of experience.
    I feel this way about many downhills but JMP would make for some very interesting traverses, switchbacks and such. Someone should make a plan, build a support base, get cosy with the neighbors and the management, and start buying tools.

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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    Dang, I was just there yesterday, and rode that.

    What is the motivation behind the re-route? Is it that it is 'too hard', or is it erosion issues?

    I can see erosion. The dirt around that rock is constantly changing, developing new ruts, rivers, etc. I don't see that as a real problem, unless we are talking about being unstable enough to be unsafe...
    It's not being rerouted because it's to hard or unsafe. It's because the trail lies in the creek bed, has been getting wider and wider over the years, is way over grade, and has some nasty rutting. One of the reason it has gotten so much wider is because everyone keeps riding to the left (going up hill) where it's a lot easier, instead of staying on the (very difficult) rock wall, which is where the trail actual is.

    I also rode in the park this last weekend. Started down in Dimond Canyon and had a hand and foot dab in the narrow section. (The 2nd switchback from the top is my nemesis.) I didn't even try the stairs heading down from Bridegview to Monterey Blvd, which is certainly doable this direction, but not for the faint of heard (which I was on this day). I did make $2 Hill. So on a 10 mile ride, $2 Hill wasn't even the hardest section.

    Mike cleared $2 Hill on Friday. So when you have two old farts (both over 50) clearing $2 Hill, hardly should we be all teary eyed about a reroute. What I find amusing about all the hand ringing over "sanitizing" the trail is that this is actually the easiest route to the top of the park. Try riding up Cinderella, Chaparral, or move 50 yards south and ride up Upper PC, and $2 Hill looks easy.

    I realize that $2 Hill is well know among local cyclists. The video posted at the beginning of this thread (of the unicyclist) which I guess is suppose to show the iconic nature of the "hill" was shot by me. But lets keep things in perspective. We'll be replacing 100' of rutted out wide trail with a sweet singletrack, which I can guarantee will be a lot more compelling to the vast majority of riders that what they're riding (or pushing) now.

    If after the trail is closed and you're jonesing for a technical climb, do as Morgan suggest and try the rock wall on (Little) Big Trees or as Empty Beer suggested the climb between Dunn Trail and Sequoia Point. (I always call this Horse Poop Trail because of the manure dump at the top.) Or heck just ride up West Ridge, not very technical, but at least worthy of the term "hill climb".
    Last edited by oparks; 04-17-2013 at 11:10 PM.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by oparks View Post
    It's not being rerouted because it's to hard or unsafe. It's because the trail lies in the creek bed, has been getting wider and wider over the years, is way over grade, and has some nasty rutting. One of the reason it has gotten so much wider is because everyone keep riding to the left (going up hill) where it's a lot easier, instead of staying on (very difficult) rock wall, which is where the trail actual is.

    I also rode in the park this last weekend. Started down in Dimond Canyon and had a hand and foot dab in the narrow section. (The 2nd switchback from the top is my nemesis.) I didn't even try the stairs heading down from Bridegview to Monterey Blvd, which is certainly doable this direction, but not for the faint of heard (which I was on this day). I did make $2 Hill. So on a 10 mile ride, $2 Hill wasn't even the hardest section.

    Mike cleared $2 Hill on Friday. So when you have two old farts (both over 50) clearing $2 Hill, hardly should we be all teary eyed about a reroute. What I find amusing about all the hand ringing over "sanitizing" the trail is that this is actually the easiest route to the top of the park. Try riding up Cinderella, Chaparral, or move 50 yards south and ride up Upper PC, and $2 Hill looks easy.

    I realize that $2 Hill is well know among local cyclists. The video posted at the beginning of this thread (of the unicyclist) which I guess is suppose to show the iconic nature of the "hill" was shot by me. But lets keep things in perspective. We'll be replacing 100' of rutted out wide trail with a sweet singletrack, which I can guarantee will be a lot more compelling to the vast majority of riders that what they're riding (or pushing) now.

    If after the trail is closed and you're jonesing for a technical climb, do as Morgan suggest and try the rock wall on (Little) Big Trees or as Empty Beer suggested the climb between Dunn Trail and Sequoia Point. (I always call this Horse Poop Trail because of the manure dump at the top.) Or heck just ride up West Ridge, not very technical, but at least worthy of the term "hill climb".
    I dunno... all things considered, I still see it as a loss. I wish there was some way to keep it there, but I understand that environmental reasons overrule all.

    And just because you and BMike can clean it doesn't mean it isn't challenging to the rest of us lesser mortals, and therefore no big deal, and we shouldn't feel bad about it going away.

    And I still haven't made it up. I've tried. I would really like to, so I keep working at it. Once I get it, Little Trees uphill will be my next whale to spear.

    I love Dimond Canyon. When I lived in Glennview, that was the start of almost all of my rides. I can just about clean the whole thing, except for that last switchback at the top of Bridgeview.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    I dunno... all things considered, I still see it as a loss. I wish there was some way to keep it there, but I understand that environmental reasons overrule all.
    And there you have it, in a nutshell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grundy View Post
    And there you have it, in a nutshell.
    It is a loss; no doubt about it. There were those who were unhappy about removing some of the bootlegs and jumps on Bishop's Walk (causing terrible drainage BTW) and some of the changes to Big Trees but they have worked out nicely.

    Getting things to change takes an enormous effort. No one who knows anything about advocacy will argue that. Sometimes things start to change independent of our actions and all we can do is try to effect this with our desires. I think our accommodations are pretty dammed good. At bottom you have people who know what they are doing put their backs into these changes.

    I don' think anyone doubts we will do our best.
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    This whole situation is disheartening and might be evidence of complacence within the well-organized advocacy group that claims to represent East Bay mountain bikers. Or maybe it's just going with the flow after enduring years of brow beating by the parks staff, disingenuous Oakland politicos, psychotic JMP "stakeholders," etc.

    Back in the day, when the FOSC dweebs and the corpulent HOHAs cried that "erosion was killing the salmon" and that mountain bikers were destroying the creeks, redwoods, and the ability to safely enjoy the park the BTCEB stood up to this idiocy.

    In a big way.

    Once a neutral third party chimed in with actual science-based facts the whining ninnies were shown to be utterly clueless.

    "Watercourses
    The watercourses in Joaquin Miller park we
    re found to be in excellent condition. The
    four main creeks that drain the redwood forest
    in the southern portion of the park have
    steep channel gradients, deep v-shaped
    canyons, and often flow on bedrock. These
    channels have occasional bank fa
    ilures related to saturated
    slopes and high stream flow.
    The stream that parallels the Cinderella Trai
    l upstream of the junction with Sunset Trail
    has steep valley walls and has had natural
    bank failures caused by high flows. Upstream
    of erosion feature 10, the creek has a shallo
    wer gradient, thick br
    ush, and no landslide or
    bank failure problems. We noted no major
    effect of recreati
    onal land use on these
    channels.
    Palo Seco Creek itself has a relatively sh
    allow channel gradient through the Upper
    Meadow and Lower Meadow areas. The channel
    gradient of this cree
    k is steeper north of
    the Sinawik Cabin. This portion of the
    creek has experienced a few stream bank
    landslides that have contributed large volumes
    of sediment to the creek in the past. One
    of these landslides, erosion feature 4, occu
    rred within the past few winters and the
    majority of the sediment is still present in the stream channel."

    http://www.btceb.org/pdf/jmp_report.pdf for the full story.

    I'm surprised that the BTCEB folks apparently did not throw these facts out when covertly discussing this sanitization with the FOJMP, staff, etc.

    Maybe it's burnout. I don't know but the end result makes me regret the amount of time I spent fighting the same fight years ago, only to have the current BTCEB leadership apparently cave to the uneducated HOHAs.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by oparks View Post
    If after the trail is closed and you're jonesing for a technical climb, do as Morgan suggest and try the rock wall on (Little) Big Trees or as Empty Beer suggested the climb between Dunn Trail and Sequoia Point.
    We call the trail from Sequoia point to Dunn "Circus", cause going down it is kinda like riding through a three ring circus...now I gotta try up it again.
    BTW I made it up 2DH once years ago, been hoping for a repeat ever since.
    but I think the reroute is a good idea.

  41. #41
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    This whole situation is disheartening and might be evidence of complacence within the well-organized advocacy group that claims to represent East Bay mountain bikers. Or maybe it's just going with the flow after enduring years of brow beating by the parks staff, disingenuous Oakland politicos, psychotic JMP "stakeholders," etc.

    Back in the day, when the FOSC dweebs and the corpulent HOHAs cried that "erosion was killing the salmon" and that mountain bikers were destroying the creeks, redwoods, and the ability to safely enjoy the park the BTCEB stood up to this idiocy.

    In a big way.

    Once a neutral third party chimed in with actual science-based facts the whining ninnies were shown to be utterly clueless.

    "Watercourses
    The watercourses in Joaquin Miller park we
    re found to be in excellent condition. The
    four main creeks that drain the redwood forest
    in the southern portion of the park have
    steep channel gradients, deep v-shaped
    canyons, and often flow on bedrock. These
    channels have occasional bank fa
    ilures related to saturated
    slopes and high stream flow.
    The stream that parallels the Cinderella Trai
    l upstream of the junction with Sunset Trail
    has steep valley walls and has had natural
    bank failures caused by high flows. Upstream
    of erosion feature 10, the creek has a shallo
    wer gradient, thick br
    ush, and no landslide or
    bank failure problems. We noted no major
    effect of recreati
    onal land use on these
    channels.
    Palo Seco Creek itself has a relatively sh
    allow channel gradient through the Upper
    Meadow and Lower Meadow areas. The channel
    gradient of this cree
    k is steeper north of
    the Sinawik Cabin. This portion of the
    creek has experienced a few stream bank
    landslides that have contributed large volumes
    of sediment to the creek in the past. One
    of these landslides, erosion feature 4, occu
    rred within the past few winters and the
    majority of the sediment is still present in the stream channel."

    http://www.btceb.org/pdf/jmp_report.pdf for the full story.

    I'm surprised that the BTCEB folks apparently did not throw these facts out when covertly discussing this sanitization with the FOJMP, staff, etc.

    Maybe it's burnout. I don't know but the end result makes me regret the amount of time I spent fighting the same fight years ago, only to have the current BTCEB leadership apparently cave to the uneducated HOHAs.
    .........................................


    Please forgive all typos, mispellings and such: Cabo sun, margaritas, leaping manta rays, and my man, Francisco, who is taking great care of us, lend to a casual expression. MM
    This is a great piece of history; even pivotal. c2000. Eric Mueler, then prez of the BTCEB, Treasurer Brent Englund (future prez), the most excellent videographer Pete Fangerlin, and I (current prez) were in attendance for the reading of this study on what was causing wear at JMP. The organization chosen to do this analysis was selected by the HOHAs and the extensive study, which cost quite a few bucks and was pretty thorough, concluded that mountain bikers were not the problem. It was bootleg hikers, bad trail design, and invasive species that were the worst problems. This was the true beginning of end zone dancing. One of the HOHAs started to make an attack from another direction and I looked him in the eye and said, "dude, you got beat, now why don't you just shut up." He did.
    However, this quote does not pertain to this discussion in terms of the causes of the reroute at issue. What is on the table is a reroute away from a trail, that enjoys some novelty popularity, which goes directly through a creek bed, generally used in the uphill direction, and up a crumbly hill up which few people can ride. The solution being offered is a series of switchbacks purchasing the hillside connecting Sequoia-Bayview to the Sunset Trail further to the north. There is no arguement about whether the trail goes through the creek bed (see the excellent photo illustration in contribution #11.) Stopping such clear environmental motivations is not in the cards. Rather, we take the opportunity to manage and execute the reroute which results in a well-designed and constructed option which affords opportunity for true two-way travel (not that common in JMP grades) useful for a much broader range of riders.
    The criticism of the recent BTCEB advocacy is perfectly valid but, simply, outside current thinking. It harkens from a time when fine advocates beat their heads against the stubborn bulwarks of tradition, institutional rigidity, the privilage of old relationships, reactionary resistance, and walked away shaking their heads. Frankly, there just wasn't much chance of doing anything given that political climate. That circumstance impacted with simple attitudes of riteous confrontation, expecting that "truth" would will out, and precious little came our way. At that time we just couldn't see that. Our ranks thinned but you can still hear those voices once in a while.
    Things have changed. We have refused to go away and are outlasting so many of the people and ideas that held us in check. We are more politically agile, have more influence and more places at more tables, there are many, many more of us, and we are better placed in society. And what is possible has changed. But that doesn't mean that the gates of heaven are flying open. Nor does it guarantee that people will like the changes that come. As an advocacy group we can only hope that people will understand that we are giving it our best shot.
    What has not changed is the need for people to be involved in meaningful ways. What hasn't changed is the limited number of people who take this up, who do the front line work over the years, and understand the process of building opinion.
    What hasn't changed is the challenge of embracing so many perspectives from so many people who love our sport, who want the very best, and of conveying us all through the machinations to get where we hope to go. We are lucky to have this at all.
    Ride well today to ride better tomorrow.



    .
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 04-26-2013 at 02:31 PM.
    I don't rattle.

  42. #42
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    Heh... some asshat negative repped me for this.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justsome_NICA_dad View Post
    This whole situation is disheartening and might be evidence of complacence within the well-organized advocacy group that claims to represent East Bay mountain bikers.

    I'm surprised that the BTCEB folks apparently did not throw these facts out when covertly discussing this sanitization with the FOJMP, staff, etc.
    Rerouting a crappy ass rutted trail does not equate to complacency or sanitization. Nor are ruts a wonderful technical challenge. It's a shit little hill with a 12' wide trail that's going to replaced with a much longer, narrow trail that switchbacks up into the chaparral. If you love rutted out fire roads there are plenty over in Redwood Park to keep you happy for years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oparks View Post
    Rerouting a crappy ass rutted trail does not equate to complacency or sanitization. Nor are ruts a wonderful technical challenge. It's a shit little hill with a 12' wide trail that's going to replaced with a much longer, narrow trail that switchbacks up into the chaparral. If you love rutted out fire roads there are plenty over in Redwood Park to keep you happy for years.
    You missed the point many times there.

    Some folks like a technical challenge like $2 hill. Equating $2 hill with a rutted out fireroad aka Redwood's offerings is ridiculous and you know better than that. Rerouting to a series of switchbacks and closing the existing route certainly is sanitizing.

    Oh well, another BTCEB "victory" to add to the timeline on the website...

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by oparks View Post
    Rerouting a crappy ass rutted trail does not equate to complacency or sanitization. Nor are ruts a wonderful technical challenge. It's a shit little hill with a 12' wide trail that's going to replaced with a much longer, narrow trail that switchbacks up into the chaparral. If you love rutted out fire roads there are plenty over in Redwood Park to keep you happy for years.
    Well, I don't agree that it's just another rutted crappy fireroad like so much of the fireroad in Redwood Park. I think it's a challenge that many of my riding buds look forward to cleaning.

    You can call it a crappy piece of worthless 12' trail all you want, but I don't think it makes anybody else feel any better about losing it.

  46. #46
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    It's a challenge but it's not that interesting. Making all the switchbacks in Dimond canyon, now that's a real challenge. I think the reaction to this loss is more a symptom of how little interesting riding we have in the east bay.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justsome_NICA_dad View Post
    You missed the point many times there.

    Some folks like a technical challenge like $2 hill. Equating $2 hill with a rutted out fireroad aka Redwood's offerings is ridiculous and you know better than that. Rerouting to a series of switchbacks and closing the existing route certainly is sanitizing.

    Oh well, another BTCEB "victory" to add to the timeline on the website...
    I've ridden my share of fall line rutted trails throughout the east bay, and can't say I find them all that fun. If you like the challenge of riding in ruts so be it - mt bikers are a diverse group. However the most sustainable trails are rolling contour, with an alignment perpendicular to the fall line, with grade reversals, gradual grade and outsloped tread. Give me a sweet narrow sustainable trail over an eroded, widened, rutted mess any day.

    I'm sorry you don't understand that trails benefit from routine maintenance, with the goal of getting water off the trail, and keeper users on it. Having the trail in the creek bed has resulted in neither of these happening over many years. (As I've already posted, having the trail in the creek bed does not allow for ANY work to be done now or in the future.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by oparks View Post
    I'm sorry you don't understand that trails benefit from routine maintenance, with the goal of getting water off the trail, and keeper users on it.
    Making this kind of stuff up does not help your case one bit.

    Of course I understand that some trails can benefit from routine maintenance. To claim that folks don't understand this is extremely disingenuous.

    The point that you continue to miss is that many folks* do not consider closing a fun technical climbing challenge (one of the few legal ones in the East Bay) to be "routine maintenance."

    *approximately 2/3rds of the folks that responded to this highly scientific poll.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    Well, I don't agree that it's just another rutted crappy fireroad like so much of the fireroad in Redwood Park. I think it's a challenge that many of my riding buds look forward to cleaning.

    You can call it a crappy piece of worthless 12' trail all you want, but I don't think it makes anybody else feel any better about losing it.
    But you will feel better when there's a cool, sustainable, narrow trail. This isn't just about what you're going to lose, it's also about what is going to replace $2 Hill. I heard all the same complaints when Big Trees was rerouted. "It's sanitizing the trails! Don't take out the double dips, it's a challenge!" Now everyone says "Wow this is so cool, we got a bunch of new trail." We lost a short rutted hill and fire road wide trail and replaced it with a narrow trail that winds through the redwoods.

    I get it, riders are going to miss the challenge. But this isn't taking the hardest climb in the park and sanitizing it to make it easy for wimps. It's taking the EASIEST route (from the bottom of the park to the top) and rerouting it with a longer, narrower trail that has the added benefit of popping out into the chaparral (and sun) while offering some cool views. So while like you, I'll miss the challenge of $2 Hill, IMO it's worth losing because the replacement is going to be more fun.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justsome_NICA_dad View Post
    Making this kind of stuff up does not help your case one bit.
    I have no case to make with someone who joined MTBr last week to tell me that BTC is complacence, cyclists are brow beating by park staff, FOSC are dweebs, I don't know the facts, and am covertly sanitization the trails against the vast wishes of east bay cyclists. It's fairly obvious you know dick about the situation. I've been with two of the best trail designers and builders in the bay area looking at this trail in the last couple months. And you are who? Some clown on the internet.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by oparks View Post
    I have no case to make with someone who joined MTBr last week to tell me that BTC is complacence, cyclists are brow beating by park staff, FOSC are dweebs, I don't know the facts, and am covertly sanitization the trails against the vast wishes of east bay cyclists. It's fairly obvious you know dick about the situation. I've been with two of the best trail designers and builders in the bay area looking at this trail in the last couple months. And you are who? Some clown on the internet.
    You had to go there. Pretty weak Brent.

    Equating post count/join date to knowledge of JMP history, someone's involvement, etc. just because some posts and contrary opinions make you uncomfortable and upset is really, really silly.

    Signed,

    Just some clown on the internet aka Pete Fagerlin

  52. #52
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    damn you PETE!!!!!!!!!!



    that was a good troll fugger....

    but i gotta bounce ya...
    Click Here for Forum Rules

  53. #53
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    Yeah but as far as I can tell, this is the only climb in the Bay Area where you actually earn $2 if you clean it. Seems like getting rid of it will only hurt our struggling economy. Just saying...
    I'm not sure how this works.

  54. #54
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    I always thought that shortcut before the hairpin turn on Skyline Blvd that dumps you out across the street from Sequoia-Bayview was harder. Only made it a couple times, but that was before full suspension.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justsome_NICA_dad View Post
    Just some clown on the internet aka Pete Fagerlin
    Ahhh Pete who would have guess!!? I'm shocked, shocked to my very core!

    You've been whining about BTC for at least 15 years. Heck you were complaining before I was even around and now the Club calls me "senior". How many times did I have to kick you off those forums? Being "clever" on the internet got boring in the 80's after Duck Hunt was released - who had time for the witty banter? Maybe Chum can give you a few more minutes, as I'm simply dieing to hear about your rich knowledge and involvement in JMP over these many years. Going to a meeting 13 years ago (and now regretting it) will surely rank as one of the great feats in mt bike history. I get sweaty just thinking about it.
    Last edited by oparks; 04-25-2013 at 03:44 PM. Reason: I can't speel (ha ha)

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    Well, I don't agree that it's just another rutted crappy fireroad like so much of the fireroad in Redwood Park. I think it's a challenge that many of my riding buds look forward to cleaning.

    You can call it a crappy piece of worthless 12' trail all you want, but I don't think it makes anybody else feel any better about losing it.
    It would be like cutting out the root on resolution trail, paving dogmeat, grading Eldridge, removing the baby heads on Pauley Creek, etc. It's what these places are known for. What we strive for and what we brag about over beers and on the internet.

    Panning it as a "shit fire road" really misunderstands what many of us feel about the trail. Frankly I would hope BTCEB would have shown a little more concern, and been less flippant about destroying it..
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    damn you PETE!!!!!!!!!!



    that was a good troll fugger....

    but i gotta bounce ya...
    Too bad you deleted his last post. It actually contained good info. BTCEB did in fact not want people finding out about this, until the last minute - because they knew people wouldnt like it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Too bad you deleted his last post. It actually contained good info. BTCEB did in fact not want people finding out about this, until the last minute - because they knew people wouldnt like it.
    then you post about it - easy peasy.

    Pete is a 'ban-on-sight' sorta guy
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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by squashyo View Post
    Yeah but as far as I can tell, this is the only climb in the Bay Area where you actually earn $2 if you clean it. Seems like getting rid of it will only hurt our struggling economy. Just saying...
    I have never received my $2. NOT ONCE!!!!

    All you ****ing ****s who were with me all those times back when I was fit enough to get up that damn hill: PREPARE TO BE SUED! Gonna put a whole damn truckload of lawyers to work all up in this *****.

    And I totally do want to see lots of people climb Cinderella and/or Chaparralllllll. I will personally troll both sides in the DH-er v. XC-climber ***** fest that follows.





    This $2 hill closure is the best thing that happened to my plan to stay busy and entertained despite not ever riding at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plim View Post
    I have never received my $2. NOT ONCE!!!!

    All you ****ing ****s who were with me all those times back when I was fit enough to get up that damn hill: PREPARE TO BE SUED! Gonna put a whole damn truckload of lawyers to work all up in this *****.

    And I totally do want to see lots of people climb Cinderella and/or Chaparralllllll. I will personally troll both sides in the DH-er v. XC-climber ***** fest that follows.





    This $2 hill closure is the best thing that happened to my plan to stay busy and entertained despite not ever riding at all.
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  61. #61
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    Exactly.

    I WANT MY TWO DOLLARS!
    This is no time for levity. - Oliver Hardy

  62. #62
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    No. Wait.

    Nevermind.

    My short attention span has kicked in and I am done with that topic. Now I just want beer. Who's in for some beers?
    This is no time for levity. - Oliver Hardy

  63. #63
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    We need video or a sworn affidavit from witnesses. Witnesses cannot be related to you, current or ex coworkers, friends or acquaintances of yours. If you satisfy the foregoing, you are eligible for the $2. Please be mindful of the statute of limitations (69 days).

    Oparks will personally remit the money to you if you comply with the above.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  64. #64
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    Wait, I am confused. I was under the impression, and I received this from a very reputable source, that when you clean $2 Hill, a tiny, red bearded man descends from the left leaning Redwood tree at the top holding a bag of $2 coins for which you get one. He then does an awkward river dance, kicks you in the shin, and climbs back up to to his nest. Is this no longer happening?
    I'm not sure how this works.

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    Quite a few people are not happy with losing $2 Hill. HeII, I'm not happy because it was kinda cool to clean it but I think it is a great trade. Zorg's comment is huge:

    "I think the reaction to this loss is more a symptom of how little interesting riding we have in the east bay."

    As far as BTCEB being flippant? Totally off the mark.Too much work has gone into this to take it lightly. You guys are just seeing the end result. It will take a while to process. I know it took me a while.

    We know what this means and have done nothing to duck anything where this issue is involved. We have explained the process, the motives, and the solution. Now the discussion has gotten circular.

    And you guys didn't know this was Pete? Actually since he now has a kid riding in NorCal he has softened. Is it complacency or burnout?
    I don't rattle.

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    Should $2 Dollar Hill in Joaquin Miller be Removed/Destroyed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post

    And you guys didn't know this was Pete? Actually since he now has a kid riding in NorCal he has softened. Is it complacency or burnout?
    Wow, I had no clue. Pete is actually borderline nice now.
    Riding slowly since 1977.

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    Are you kidding? This is warm and fuzzy by historical comparison.
    I don't rattle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justsome_NICA_dad View Post

    The point that you continue to miss is that many folks* d

    *approximately 2/3rds of the folks that responded to this highly scientific poll.
    Sorry, Pete, that is a blatant distortion of the poll. Unfortunately the third choice refers to some pie-in-the-sky alternate route without any knowledge of the land it is on and how it would be done. Further, if you look at the excellent photo, the creek bed runs right below the imbedded tie; where would a trail come from? That makes it an unrealistic choice and indicates really nothing more than opting out of the question. Or some wish.

    It is a bad option in a poll so it becomes irrelevant to any sort of 2/3s interpretation. While it does acknowledge a desire to keep the Hill it also desires an alternative. One might say as well that 2/3s prefer an alternate route but any route would go through the creek bed so....

    The first trail work day for that piece of ground is later in May. The turnout will be huge. We have 8 already and we are a month out.
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    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 04-26-2013 at 11:46 PM.
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    I'm very excited about this project and will be volunteering as much as possible. I caught up with Jim Jacobsen out at Endor @ Tamarancho this past weekend and asked about this. He mentioned that he didn't have the latest info and couldn't comment on the trail's progress which led me to believe that he's not involved, although I thought that I had read at one point that we was. Can anyone comment as to who is actually designing the trail and will be spearheading the construction if not Jim?

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    Nate at Hilride will be doing overall supervision and technical advising. We just be the muscle.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 04-29-2013 at 04:41 PM.
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  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Nate at Hilride will be dong overall supervision and technical advising. We just be the muscle.
    That's disgusting.
    I'm not sure how this works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Too bad you deleted his last post. It actually contained good info. BTCEB did in fact not want people finding out about this, until the last minute - because they knew people wouldnt like it.
    Man, you are cynical.

    Although in this case, I think you might be pretty close to the mark.

    All I seem to hear about this is basically somebody trying to Jedi Mind Trick me into thinking that I'm going to enjoy the removal of Two Dollar Hill. I feel like somebody is trying really hard to sell me a bill of goods.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by oparks View Post
    But you will feel better when there's a cool, sustainable, narrow trail. This isn't just about what you're going to lose.... (justify, justify, justify)...
    No, really. I won't.

    Yeah, I guess it will be nice to have a chicken run around Two Dollar Hill (moar trailz!) but I still think we should keep the original hill.

  74. #74
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    I propose we turn $2 hill into $4 hill as those of us who can consistently make it could use more of a challenge.

    Perhaps I'll try going up it sitting on my handlebars. Guy rides his bike backwards - YouTube

    But really, if we could have both that would be nice; I do think an easier way up will get those who are beginner into the park. I've taken a few first time riders to this park to show them the ropes and they were really put off by hiking $2 hill. It is very satisfying to put down a cindy+chap lap without putting a foot down anywhere, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    Man, you are cynical.

    Although in this case, I think you might be pretty close to the mark.

    All I seem to hear about this is basically somebody trying to Jedi Mind Trick me into thinking that I'm going to enjoy the removal of Two Dollar Hill. I feel like somebody is trying really hard to sell me a bill of goods.
    There have been a remarkable number of mistaken notions about this whole thing, regardless of how many facts and corrections and repetitions have been made about what is really going on. But I see that as an expression of a lot of unhappiness about the loss of $2 Hill. And they keep coming. Some will never be happy with this; no one is saying that they should. Fair enough.

    However, I'm not trying to sell you on anything. I have acknowledged my own personal sense of the loss of $2 from the get go, presented the ecological and political forces driving the event, and my sense that we did our best to effect the character and quality of the work that was going to be done with us or without us. Aaaaand...we are spending the money it takes to provide materials, Hilride, and the feeding and beering of our forces, which amounts to several thousand dollars.

    No; it is not perfect but I have never sold it as such or asked anyone to believe it.

    Oh, BTW, this is why iHeart is on my ignore list; he is largely destructive; entertaining but destructive. Somehow he manages to stay just south of the Fangerlin line. Just.
    I don't rattle.

  76. #76
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    Any work schedule yet? Can you make sure we know when to show up to help Berkeley Mike? Or anyone else? thanks.

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    Facts are much better than vain BTCEB attempts at recasting history and denying their culpability in the destruction of $2 hill.

    Since when is hiding the issue from the MTB community a good idea? It sucks that a bunch of ancient, decrepit, technical trail phobic freds are calling the shots at JMP. It's time for some normal folks to interject themselves in the process...

    So the demise of $2 hill was "kept quiet" so the MTB community didn't upset the apple cart. Idiocy.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Should  Dollar Hill in Joaquin Miller be Removed/Destroyed?-failure.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowHakkaPilot View Post
    Facts are much better than vain BTCEB attempts at recasting history and denying their culpability in the destruction of $2 hill.

    Since when is hiding the issue from the MTB community a good idea? It sucks that a bunch of ancient, decrepit, technical trail phobic freds are calling the shots at JMP. It's time for some normal folks to interject themselves in the process...

    So the demise of $2 hill was "kept quiet" so the MTB community didn't upset the apple cart. Idiocy.
    BTCEB + DC Style politics = BTCDC!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowHakkaPilot View Post
    Facts are much better than vain BTCEB attempts at recasting history and denying their culpability in the destruction of $2 hill.

    Since when is hiding the issue from the MTB community a good idea? It sucks that a bunch of ancient, decrepit, technical trail phobic freds are calling the shots at JMP. It's time for some normal folks to interject themselves in the process...

    So the demise of $2 hill was "kept quiet" so the MTB community didn't upset the apple cart. Idiocy.
    The faction of the mountain bike community that appreciates sustainable trails that do not cause environmental damage by running through creek beds thinks BTCEB should be lauded and scoffs at those who selfishly try to maintain status quo even when it is detrimental to mountain biking as a whole. Too bad people can't make sacrifices that improve the overall mtn. biking experience by making it more sustainable.

    In the south bay there used to be more difficult lines up the face of lexington dam, at the top of jones hill, up lime kiln, and down Moodys. These lines were all unsustainable, and people have moved on after they were re-routed / regraded / closed. The small stretch of 2$ hill is not comparable to Pauley creek or Eldridge or dogmeat, it is just a stretch of unsustainable trail.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by chudaman View Post
    The faction of the mountain bike community that appreciates sustainable trails that do not cause environmental damage by running through creek beds thinks BTCEB should be lauded and scoffs at those who selfishly try to maintain status quo even when it is detrimental to mountain biking as a whole. Too bad people can't make sacrifices that improve the overall mtn. biking experience by making it more sustainable.

    In the south bay there used to be more difficult lines up the face of lexington dam, at the top of jones hill, up lime kiln, and down Moodys. These lines were all unsustainable, and people have moved on after they were re-routed / regraded / closed. The small stretch of 2$ hill is not comparable to Pauley creek or Eldridge or dogmeat, it is just a stretch of unsustainable trail.
    All due respect, I did not 'move on' after they closed Moody. That trail was rad and it still sucks that they closed it.
    I'm not sure how this works.

  81. #81
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    It's happened. $2 hill is no more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andyb_aka_shredward View Post
    It's happened. $2 hill is no more.
    RIP

    When I heard they were closing it, I had to clear it a couple more times just for old time sake, so last week I did a few laps and manged to clear 3 times on 4 attempts and was very proud of myself - had not been that successful in the past - it almost seemed easier than I remember - did it get a bit sanitized right before they shut it down? or was it just that my sentimental feelings gave me that extra pep and strength, knowing this would be the last time I climbed it?

  83. #83
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    3 out of 4. Nice! I think one thing that made it a bit more doable recently is that a new line developed to the left of what my crew and I called "the chute" which was the deep gouge that had formed on the previously taken line. I've cleaned it maybe a dozen times (a claim that makes me pretty proud too, given that there are guys in my group who remained, and will remain, 0-fer), but it would have been much higher if I hadn't been constantly spinning out or going into the side of that freakin' chute. But once the new line formed, we'd have a guy clean it most times out. Now the main tester at JPM is going to be on the rock wall on Little big trees (which I actually like much more, and have a lower success level on (think I've done it maybe 4 or 5 times). It's going to suck to no longer have "the double" of cleaning both on the same ride. My brief eulogy is that the challenge will be sorely missed (I'm currently working on a blog posting about the deceased tester), but from a standpoint of the absolute necessity for sustainable trail, is that it was the poster child for poorly conceived, eye sore trail. I'm frankly surprised it was around as long as it was. But once the rerouting to the left was done, the writing was on the wall. Good for whoever has been out there doing all that work.

  84. #84
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    By the way, does anyone know the origin of the name? I would imagine it's betting related.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowHakkaPilot View Post
    Facts are much better than vain BTCEB attempts at recasting history and denying their culpability in the destruction of $2 hill.

    Since when is hiding the issue from the MTB community a good idea? It sucks that a bunch of ancient, decrepit, technical trail phobic freds are calling the shots at JMP. It's time for some normal folks to interject themselves in the process...

    So the demise of $2 hill was "kept quiet" so the MTB community didn't upset the apple cart. Idiocy.
    This is just wrong. We are simply outgunned. The JMP Supervisor was about to retire and saw an opportunity and said "go!" to the Friends of Joaquin Miller who vastly outnumber us. Nothing was hidden or kept quiet but when it started to move it moved very quickly. The best we could do was be the guys that moved the dirt, the Supervisor trusted us, so we got something out of it.

    The one good thing in this quote is "it is time for some normal folks to interject themselves in the process..." The challenge is that few folks do anything and if they do they show up at one or two events and rail against the the tide, then quit and go ride. Then there are the constant critics and backbiters who do nothing. Nothing constructive is ever offered. Sneering is not relevant to solution it is just as useless aa whining.
    I don't rattle.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by andyb_aka_shredward View Post
    By the way, does anyone know the origin of the name? I would imagine it's betting related.
    I was told by a fellow MTB-er that it is called $2 Hill because if you clean it, those you are riding with have to give you $2 - I wouldn't be surprised if this is true or totally made up - kind of sounds like one of those add-on explanations

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    This is just wrong. We are simply outgunned. The JMP Supervisor was about to retire and saw an opportunity and said "go!" to the Friends of Joaquin Miller who vastly outnumber us. Nothing was hidden or kept quiet but when it started to move it moved very quickly. The best we could do was be the guys that moved the dirt, the Supervisor trusted us, so we got something out of it.

    The one good thing in this quote is "it is time for some normal folks to interject themselves in the process..." The challenge is that few folks do anything and if they do they show up at one or two events and rail against the the tide, then quit and go ride. Then there are the constant critics and backbiters who do nothing. Nothing constructive is ever offered. Sneering is not relevant to solution it is just as useless aa whining.
    Mike, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on this - because I know you follow your conscience on this stuff.

    But you guys didnt do a good job of conveying the information to us- in fact you held much of it back. When called on it, you and oparks actually criticized us.

    In the future - I would respect you much more if you were more transparent about what is going on.

    Then, if people dont like what you're doing - you have an easy defense- offered here: "listen, we did our best, if you think you can do better - by all means - show up to the meetings."

    This would put the onus on others.

    I think there are some lessons learned here.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

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  88. #88
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    The request for transparency is an interesting thing. There is a mistaken notion that it makes things simple. That is far from the case. The idea of "transparency" is poorly defined and wanders depending on who has info and who is asking.

    It is not beyond us as mountain bikers to be cautious about who we give info to; sometimes we don't know who is listening or who we are talking to. I share a remarkable amount of info on this site even though there are some folks who might want to do us all harm with it.

    Much of the ability to be transparent is a simple function of time and believing that you have good information. As such early info is cautiously shared. As head of a volunteer organization I would go crazy if I had to do everything but then I could speak exactly about things which had transpired. I worked in healthcare for 10 years with a team of people which went unchanged for nearly 5 years. Communication was awesome, intimate, articulate and where things got strange we knew each other so well, and so much about our clients, that we knew how to fill in the cracks. I will never forget that or lose my sense of its value.

    In broad brushstrokes I have no problem with what we do,whether I know about it or not. I can live with it. I like being vetted as many have done; rangers, business owners, parents; we look pretty good. I count on some really great volunteers to act on our behalf and in response to events which occur quickly. We count on best judgement and good faith. As such the actual nitty gritty is not always at hand. Information then unfolds. In this case in particular I think the info unfolded very thoroughly and with a lot of integrity.

    Today at the JMP Park Supervisors Retirement Party I spoke to the lady who is in charge of Watershed for the City of Oakland. It was funny; she understood the loss for mountain bikers but appreciated that a creek bed was being brought back.

    As far as lessons the big one always comes down to this: you need to be at the table, often. Absent that all you can say is shoulda, woulda, coulda adn you know how people feel about that.
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    I'll just let these thoughts stand on their own. People will decide what they will. I have no problem with that at all.

    As for the contributor: new member with few posts, all bogus, mean spirited, but clear if not well informed other than an attitude. This is Pete F.

    How long until he gets banned?
    I don't rattle.

  90. #90
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    This all makes sense to me. Mountain biking was discovered through exploration and a sense of adventure. People took their bikes off road and checked out all sorts of stuff. Pre-existing trails were a natural focus but the idea of getting from here to there transitioned us to less developed surfaces, unusual ways of looking at open space, newfound speed, and remote locations. Certain kinds of folks were drawn to the sport for the challenges and rewards it meant; scrapes, breaks, air, and beer.

    This is not a mentality shared by the general public, let alone hikers, runners, dog walkers or equestrians. However, these are the folks who called "first dibs" on the open spaces. The power of such a "call" was elaborated for 9 years and 180 episodes of Seinfeld; laws paled when confronted by the common sense of the unwritten rules of the neighborhood. It is very hard to get around "first dibs." The old gang has to age out and, in the mean time, they do not let go easily.

    Solutions to this problem are unsatisfactory; the transition is slow, the stop-gaps are frustrating, the work to make things better for us comes out of our ride time and some people make a simple and understandable choice ("Come on, Dude, let's go bowling." John Goodman, The Big Lebowski.) Some don't. Some part of a mountain biker just won't put up with this exclusionary thinking. But that doesn't mean that one guy can tough it out like a long technical climb in a couple of hours. Law and salami aren't made that way. See Lebowski quote.

    Two thoughts keep coming to mind:

    1) While we are a major user group we may never be more than about 30% of the open space users. That makes a majority difficult and, absent a lot of mutual participation from our own cadre and outreach to other groups, progress is in question.

    2) There was a time when Dad and I went head-to-head about his age issues. It came down to this. "Dad, I know you are stubborn but who do you think I came from? I am younger, stronger, and faster than you now. I am your worst nightmare and your best hope." We had a stare-down. He took his medicine. I left the hospital room. When the family in the Waiting Room heard this some were appalled, some didn't know what to think, and some nodded. My sister-in-law just smiled a bit. She loved my dad but knew I had to do what I had to do. The next day he turned over the keys to his cars and put me in control of his estate. It was time.

    Being there is not always pretty. Yet, none of what we need to do can happen unless we are there to do it. If we can't be there we need to offer support. Even if we disagree that, at least, is a form of participation.

    I can do without name calling, being called a liar, and questioning of goodwill.

    Ride well. MM
    I don't rattle.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    This all makes sense to me. Mountain biking was discovered through exploration and a sense of adventure. People took their bikes off road and checked out all sorts of stuff. Pre-existing trails were a natural focus but the idea of getting from here to there transitioned us to less developed surfaces, unusual ways of looking at open space, newfound speed, and remote locations. Certain kinds of folks were drawn to the sport for the challenges and rewards it meant; scrapes, breaks, air, and beer.

    This is not a mentality shared by the general public, let alone hikers, runners, dog walkers or equestrians. However, these are the folks who called "first dibs" on the open spaces. The power of such a "call" was elaborated for 9 years and 180 episodes of Seinfeld; laws paled when confronted by the common sense of the unwritten rules of the neighborhood. It is very hard to get around "first dibs." The old gang has to age out and, in the mean time, they do not let go easily.

    Solutions to this problem are unsatisfactory; the transition is slow, the stop-gaps are frustrating, the work to make things better for us comes out of our ride time and some people make a simple and understandable choice ("Come on, Dude, let's go bowling." John Goodman, The Big Lebowski.) Some don't. Some part of a mountain biker just won't put up with this exclusionary thinking. But that doesn't mean that one guy can tough it out like a long technical climb in a couple of hours. Law and salami aren't made that way. See Lebowski quote.

    Two thoughts keep coming to mind:

    1) While we are a major user group we may never be more than about 30% of the open space users. That makes a majority difficult and, absent a lot of mutual participation from our own cadre and outreach to other groups, progress is in question.

    2) There was a time when Dad and I went head-to-head about his age issues. It came down to this. "Dad, I know you are stubborn but who do you think I came from? I am younger, stronger, and faster than you now. I am your worst nightmare and your best hope." We had a stare-down. He took his medicine. I left the hospital room. When the family in the Waiting Room heard this some were appalled, some didn't know what to think, and some nodded. My sister-in-law just smiled a bit. She loved my dad but knew I had to do what I had to do. The next day he turned over the keys to his cars and put me in control of his estate. It was time.

    Being there is not always pretty. Yet, none of what we need to do can happen unless we are there to do it. If we can't be there we need to offer support. Even if we disagree that, at least, is a form of participation.

    I can do without name calling, being called a liar, and questioning of goodwill.

    Ride well. MM
    I put the above into google translate and had it changed to Greek. It makes much more sense this way.
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

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    Should $2 Dollar Hill in Joaquin Miller be Removed/Destroyed?

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    I put the above into google translate and had it changed to Greek. It makes much more sense this way.
    What about political mumbo-jumbo? Did you try that?
    I initially thought it might be written in legalese, but there's not enough 'heretofores' and 'forthwiths' for it to be legalese.
    Its all Shits and Giggles until somebody Giggles and Shits

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    Aw shucks.
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