The perfect flow trail bike ala PVD. 74-Z
This is the first dedicated build for flow that I know of. A nice reference for folks wondering what works out there.
74-Z Flowmaster | Peter Verdone Designs
Doesn't look like much fun for the ride to the top.
How is it different from my specialized P3 that shreds the pumptrack?
Its the difference between a monster truck and a trophy truck.See the print.
The over specialization for every possible niche of this sport gets annoying at times.
The Tamo Flow trail is bad ass, built incredibly well very fun to ride but for me seems to be slightly out of place for what it is.......in snowboarding world it would be like a super pipe built way out in the back country, once you get there you almost need a different board to ride it but you don't have it so you deal with what you have (a split board).
I can foresee many groms pushing dirt jumper bikes out there to ride in the future for sure...
Don't get me wrong here I enjoy it tremendously and will travel an hour one way to ride it many times in the future. I hope to see future flow trails built as a combination of the surrounding terrain features (rocks - roots) with flow trail characteristics like high berms, bowls and some pump sections. For me big scrubber rollers kinda useless and flow breaking, probably for a large percentage of the riders out there as well...
Again just to clarify, Tamo Flow = bad ass, highly appreciative of efforts put into it, will ride again many times, great learning experience for all.
@PVD nice bike!
@others all the general population of riders needs to do for flow trail riding is find a saddle height that works for them. Maybe add a little tire pressure. Riding a purpose-built bike can be great--like a DH bike at a resort, but it's not necessary.
I bet there are groms who only have a DJ, and if they push all the way out there bless'em. That's more riders enjoying something special.
My understanding of the course design was that a large percentage of riders were purposefully left not knowing how to ride every feature. So that there can be a lot of progression for a lot of people. Meaning absolutely zero offense to anyone, how fun would a trail that most mountain bikers could imediately rip be? The designers gave you and everyone else years of growth opportunity. And the hillside is virtually un-GPS-able. It's no one's KOM vanity trail. Only you will know how well you make all those corners, hook the faces, pump the backsides, manual the roller-doubles, gap the peaky rollers, etc. I think when this sinks in people will be even more stoked.
Can't wait for Demo flow trail. Different spot, different people, different ideas, and new things to learn.
Most riders will benefit the most by just slamming their seat as low as possible and flipping their stem to lower their bars if they are looking for a 5 minute bike setup for a few runs. The difference in just those two things is night and day. Brining a 60mm/-30 stem in your camelback would be even better. It's not much but you really get to work the trail.
Ritchey Logic - Road - Stems - Pro 30 Degree
I'm in a different situation than most as I live down the street and I build my own bikes.
Well thought out build. Nice looking bike.
(side note: I'm amazed at how any Flow Trail subject generates controversy. Maybe because people are passionate about the trail?)
Car camping for you
Originally Posted by RipRoar
CAR camping is what you are looking for.
Hi Hans. I think it's the web forum mindset that generates controversy. I think after a few years of exposure to the net, many read dramatic voice or infer dramatic context from what's really just neutral text. I think people just want to talk about bikes. Different ideas are good.
But I know what drives so much of the interest in norcal flow trail threads--it is freakin' awesome riding! Such a great compliment to the types of trails this area has traditionally had. So fun. So worthy of the hype, for the rider who doesn't have the means to bike-travel extensively or do 40 days/year at resorts or have the land and $$ to build a private park.
@pvd I finally actually clicked your link and read about the project and I am 3X as impressed. Sick. Also rad speeder bike schematic.
Edit: @pvd I run a Boobar cut to 760 mm on my hardtail. You are right about the controls. There is very little room to move the controls any farther in before they bump against the bend/increased OD.
I am sometimes running a rideable long post and sometimes running a dedicated short post on my bike. I have pushed in from Brown Bridge and will do so again on short-post days. Whatever makes you happy. Run what you brung. Every lap, I like to take a long breather at the top of the Tamo flow trail in the little poison oak patch. I see dozens of riders go by. For the love of speed, progression, safety, and your soft parts: Endor is a standing-only experience! 2? 3? 4? minutes. It's a workout. Drop that post!
Last edited by Snfoilhat; 05-06-2013 at 01:41 PM.
Big props on the bike, there's something to be said for a new trail inspiring one to design and fab a frame to be purpose-built and then build the bike with all the components. The bike may not be everyone's style or desire, but it looks sick. Well done.
Originally Posted by pvd
Originally Posted by Repack Rider
Originally Posted by Carl Hungus
This sport trying to turn every single track into a pump track is annoying all the time.
Originally Posted by Carl Hungus
Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.
Originally Posted by hanskellner
I can't believe the amount of chatter this trail has created.
I am glad though because it seems as though it's giving our sport, and our location, a kick in the right direction.
At least we are talking about a great trail and not some stupid fire road.
Anyone with negative thoughts, opinions, or philosophies, have not ridden this trail.
Everyone who comes off this trail says, and I quote,"WOW, DAMN, HOO-WEE, JEEZ DAT WAS RAD" an so on, an so forth .
We need more of trails like these.
OK, enough, I'm starting to sound like Berkeley Mike. Too many words and not enough turns and jumps
Banned for showing Boobies.
Nice Pete. Beautiful! I'd love to take a couple rips down that trail on a bike that is well suited for it. With regards to specialization comments, riding new/different bikes is fun!
Previously known as mttamrnr.
Every single one is a pump track?
Originally Posted by Mrwhlr
Can you name 1 other trail within 100 miles that is anything like this?
I just don't get this opposition to fun - I guess I just have to chalk it up to a "back in my day" curmudgeon-y attitude where anything new is just not as good.
Oh, I don't think anyone is opposed to fun, maybe some folks are tired of so many T-ranch topics, but as GGG says, those are the ones who haven't ridden it yet. It's undeniably good for the sport, good for the local towns, great for local kids (even though Marin's youth is heavily steered toward XC programs, but that's what they have to work with mostly as far as access), I don't think there's much bad about it other than people maybe parking where they shouldn't and perhaps not buying daily or annual passes. It's awesome.
Originally Posted by skyno
Got it - I think you have a point.
Originally Posted by three3nine
I was just intrigued by the "This sport trying to turn every single track into a pump track is annoying all the time." comment made as if there is this overabundance of pump tracks sprouting up everywhere - I thought that maybe I wasn't privy to some new goods and was missing out!
I can see how someone who can't ride a trail with a lot of jumps and steep berms wouldn't have much fun on it. Imagine some old crusty person on a hardtail coming around a corner just to see a wall of dirt in front of them. They'll have to brake check and then roll every jump. That would really suck and not have much flow at all. Instead of those people complaining about how jumps are annoying they should stick to the over abundance of fireroads that litter the open spaces.
Ha, ha... so true man. Ten thousand miles of fire roads...
Originally Posted by skyno
What I get, using odd language like 'single track'. How far are you from the Arizona border?
Originally Posted by skyno
Stay tuned, I refer to 'rocks' on occasion as well.
Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.
Well, IMO ol' Mr PVD can be one of the most entertaining AND infuriating opiners I've ever had a beer with -in the same breath. But of the multitude of podium regulars and otherwise ultra talented riders I've met in over 20 yrs in Fairfax Mr P is one of the few that can style the Flow trail as intended -and he hasn't been a teenage bmx hucker for years. He also builds a mean bike -although I probably wouldn't ride one.
If anyone saw me ride the flow trail, they'd probably revoke my pass. If I saw a video of myself riding it, I'd probably shoot myself in the face.
Nice going P!
Nice going Davey!
Originally Posted by Fairfaxian
Nobody looks fast until they are going really, really fast. By the way, anybody know what a respectable lap time for Endor is yet?
Looks like 1:30-2:00 depending on where you peg the start/end.
Originally Posted by Snfoilhat
I regret thread jacking now.
FYI - Endor has been rough-estimated at a mile. Conservatively 0.75 miles. 1:30 would be an average speed of 30 MPH. I'm going to move over to the "GPS-based segment timing applications are inaccurate" thread. Apologies.
I know all about fast in video. This trail is not all about land based travel, it involves aeronautics and gravity defiance. I am from the age of earthbound cycling.
Davey is a pilot.
Pete is . . . huh, words fail me here.
I looked closer at the detail shots of the bike. W.o.A. Pete!
(for the acronym resistant, that's Work-of-Art)
Can you build me the actual 74-Z?
Some people failed to see how cool the original thread is.
I gotta head up there soon. Been riding way too much non-flowy but pretty sick singletrack lately :P
Hey man, wanna go for a klunk?
Nice bike, some things i don't quite agree with. I ride through tamarancho on a 6" Mojo HD bust a bunch of flow trail laps and finish the ride down white hill and then onto solstice if I still feel motivated. I think that trail is ridable on any mountain bike on the face of the planet and it is a great trail to incorporate into a full ride. No need whatsoever for a dedicated bike. (except for your case, since you build bikes and live down the street, duh, lol) I'm running a 70mm stem and 750mm bars. I just drop the seat dropper, put the fork and shock to full compression and ride off.
Mountain Bike Ride Profile | Tamarnacho + 5 Flow Trail Runs near Fairfax | Times and Records | Strava
Mountain Bike Ride Profile | flow trail lottery near Fairfax | Times and Records | Strava
You really don't need a DJ bike, a frankenstein geared DJ bike or anything special at all. The trail is pretty mellow with barely any jumps. yes you can air out a few features but there is nothing very challenging on the trail at all. Which is why I believe so many people are flocking to it and having a blast riding it. I think they built this trail pefectly for the intentions they had in mind. i'm sure for the super technically challenged it becomes hard to maintain momentum and they get fatigued from braking and then pedaling. But nothing too intimidating
I'm curious about your stem choice, you say short n low, but in the pic you have long and high? Also there are a few spots where having a lil more front grip would be nice. On the top section there is a small double/gap you can air over, and immediately after there is a very hard right hander with just a tiny berm (followed by a couple of rollers and those two tall Dirt Jump rises in a row). When you corner hard enough the front tire slides into that little berm. I dunno if I'd trust that sb8 on the front. Nice that you live down the street and have gears on this bike. maybe I'll see ya up there sometime.
Also I'm curious whats a realistic fast time down. The GPS readings are all over the place. I don't have a stop watch and have never bothered to check but I am curious. Better to go for fun and flow than pedaling and worrying about your time. But with the Strava the times are so all over the place it leaves you wondering.
I think Snfoilhat has the fastest lap time to date that I know of. He was sub 3 minutes, I think 2:53 to be precise. I did a run with Dan Barnes and he timed us using his iPhone. I'd consider Dan and my friend Allen to be some of the fastest guys to use the trail so far. It was around 3 minutes. I haven't followed Snfoilhat down the trail yet. I'm sure I would have a handful of a time holding his wheel.
As for Strava. Well it just doesn't work up there. I nearly made a grown man cry at Gestalt house trying to explain why - after he told me that he held the KOM. I started talking about how GPS satellites were really atomic clocks floating in space, the satellite constellation converge, lines of position, 3D lock, RAIM and the types of position prediction algorithms that Strava uses. He just looked at me like I killed one of his children and left bar.
Last night I was contacted by Jeffery Herbertson who will be shooting some video at the trail. I am thrilled and humbled by his choice. Also humbled by the fact he has worked on the trail during the build and offered to water ther berms as well during the shoot. All class. Here is one of his other videos:
Video: Trail Noise - Pinkbike
I am still taken aback by the amount of interest the trail has created. I too think it is super cool that PVD created a whole bike for the .8 miles of trail that I had the privilege of being a small part of. Dudes like Fairfaxian are just as responsible for the trail as I am. They created the environment for this all to happen.
We are in fact talking about less than a mile of trail. The only one of it's kind for hundreds(?) of miles.
Hopefully I can turn the support of the mountain bike community into a legit pump track somewhere in southern Marin and ultimately a BMX track. Maybe I am just used to fuzzy logic or thinking outside of the box. Many would scratch their heads at why I would be so keen on a BMX track. The BMX track is the key to the whole thing.
I have never ridden BMX but nothing would make me more hopeful to see more legal single track - than a BMX track in Marin County.
You can ride the trail on anything you like. It's just faster and more fun on a proper bike.
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