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  1. #1
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Saw an older (late 50s?) guy coming off of Gails into the parking lot on a pedal-assisted mountain bike.

    I didn't want to give him crap about it or start any drama, so I just silently judged him as he rode away.

    What are your guys thoughts on these contraptions on the trails?
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    I have heard a theory/interpretation that e-bikes can be regarded as "other" power mobility assist device under ADA, and anybody stating a disability (statement is sufficient) can ride it anywhere - including wilderness, PCT etc.. I wonder if that interpretation had been tested.

    I will certainly buy one once I can not ride a regular bike far enough due to age or illness.

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    Re: Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    You're talking ebikes right? Personally I think mountain bikers should take the lead on getting these things explicitly banned with signage (at the city , county and state park level) before the anti bike hiking groups start using them as a lever to get all bikes banned, park by park.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ddprocter View Post
    You're talking ebikes right? Personally I think mountain bikers should take the lead on getting these things explicitly banned with signage (at the city , county and state park level) before the anti bike hiking groups start using them as a lever to get all bikes banned, park by park.
    I'm with you on this. I feel like they're a bunch of bad apples that WILL spoil the whole bunch if left unchecked. (yeah, E-Bikes).
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    I thought all bikes are "pedal assisted". Without pedals you don't get anywhere.

    I would think that an electric power assisted bike's impact on the trail is about the same as a regular bike. As long as the rider doesn't take all the Strava uphill KOMs I'm not sure we should push to prohibit them, but please educate me why an older rider on an ebike is a "bad apple".
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    Quote Originally Posted by JL de Jong View Post
    I thought all bikes are "pedal assisted". Without pedals you don't get anywhere.

    I would think that an electric power assisted bike's impact on the trail is about the same as a regular bike. As long as the rider doesn't take all the Strava uphill KOMs I'm not sure we should push to prohibit them, but please educate me why an older rider on an ebike is a "bad apple".
    Yes, if you would like to be painfully literal, all bicycles are pedal assisted. However the bikes in question are not solely powered by the rider. The rider's pedaling is assisted by a small electric motor. We all know what happens when you put down too much power in a limited traction environment, and as many of us know, there are already NUMEROUS signs out at Boggs forbidding motorized vehicles. And motorized vehicles are not allowed on most trails that we all know and love.

    I don't think the riders age has anything whatsoever to do with the issue at hand, and that bit of info was only used to set the scene for my encounter. But I do think they are bad apples in that they are a motor vehicle that looks like a mountain bike. And as ddprocter said, I think it's important to distance ourselves from them before anti-bike groups use them as leverage to get all bikes banned from everywhere.

    Long story short, I think they're pose a threat to future of "normal" mountain bike access.
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    I've seen this coming for a while now and I think it's going to be really interesting to see where it heads. If there's one thing we know it's that technology does not wait for the decision makers to catch up. Look at what's happening with drones/UAV's right now.

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    Re: Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by JL de Jong View Post
    I thought all bikes are "pedal assisted". Without pedals you don't get anywhere.

    I would think that an electric power assisted bike's impact on the trail is about the same as a regular bike. As long as the rider doesn't take all the Strava uphill KOMs I'm not sure we should push to prohibit them, but please educate me why an older rider on an ebike is a "bad apple".
    First and foremost, because their presence is more threatening to hikers than non-motorized bikes, and thus could be used to a ) rally anti bike movements among hiking groups all over and b ) influence council members and trail access decision makers to ban all bikes.

    Anti-bike activists will use ebikes as a pandora's box argument, making the case that the long term goal of the biking community is to open access to all kinds of motorized vehicles. This could tip the balance of the debate towards banning bikes and cause lots of lost access to existing trails.

    Secondly, e-bikes WILL cause more trail damage because the same rider, given an ebike, can put in more hours on trail overall. This weekend I rode Watson lake and Watson creek single track outside of Tahoe City, and the weekend prior I rode Northstar and livewire/boondocks etc. The difference in the state of the two trail systems, less than a mile from each other, was enormous. At Northstar, Boondocks and other lift-served downhill trails, were a chopped up moondust mess, and this was opening weekend. Watson lake area single track, which is not lift served and requires some climbing, and has been open since the snow melted weeks before, was in extremely good condition by comparison. The difference is the amount of traffic the two trails get, and, ebikes will significantly increase the total miles logged, degrading trails faster.

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    OK, I agree that an ebike is a motorized vehicle and it shouldn't be in areas where it is clearly stated these are prohibited. The power to weight ratio of batteries keeps on improving and before we know it an ebike could have the same impact as a small dirt bike. Breaking the clearly stated law does make someone a "bad apple". I see your point there.
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    I met someone a while ago who had an ebike (emountain bike? whatever). He was an older guy, and was thrilled to finally have the opportunity to share a riding experience with his younger, healthier son. I wouldn't want to deprive anyone of that experience, and frankly, banning them sounds pretty darn able-ist. But I can also see how MTB opponents might engage the "slippery slope!" argument. Sigh, just another baby boomer mess that my generation will have to clean up...
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    Out on a run in the Marin Headlands I watched this guy wearing moto pants and a full face pedaling up one of the steepest single tracks (illegal for bikes) out of Pirates Cove. It did leave me with this sinking feeling, but I couldn't help but cheer as he went past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piranha426 View Post
    I met someone a while ago who had an ebike (emountain bike? whatever). He was an older guy, and was thrilled to finally have the opportunity to share a riding experience with his younger, healthier son. I wouldn't want to deprive anyone of that experience, and frankly, banning them sounds pretty darn able-ist. But I can also see how MTB opponents might engage the "slippery slope!" argument. Sigh, just another baby boomer mess that my generation will have to clean up...
    G'luck with that. So far your generation has only succeeded in tidying messes into politically correct piles that obscure the original issues.

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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Can't wait to get one and wreck havoc on the strava boards...finally my ego will be satisfied!

    In all seriousness, I think there's room and a place for them, but not anywhere/everywhere. Are they really any worse than a horse or an 8" travel downhill bike tearing up the local illegal ST? For those with disabilities I am open to them, for some areas.

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    What if these bikes looked basically the same as a "normal bike" under brief inspection and the noise was negligible. How would you even know that somebody was using one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by plantdude View Post
    Are they really any worse than a horse or an 8" travel downhill bike tearing up the local illegal ST?
    Yes they are worse - with an unmotorized, 8 inch travel bike, with the exception of shuttle-able rides, you must lug it up before you go down. This naturally limits the number of runs that I can do on my DH bike, which slows the rate of degradation of the trail. With a motor on it, that equation changes. Someone who could do 1 or 2 runs in a day can now do 4 or 6. Plus, more people who were too lazy to ride before will be drawn to the trails, further increasing the traffic. So, the trail gets f*d up way earlier in the season, requires more maintenance, and is less fun for everyone because of the congestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by plantdude View Post
    For those with disabilities I am open to them, for some areas.
    I don't think this will work. We see 'service dogs' everywhere now, for all sorts of people who have zero real disability or need for a true service animal. When you ask these people what service the dog is providing, they smirkingly share that they got their doc to write up a prescription for the dog, it provides them 'happiness'. Don't get me wrong - dog lover here. But its an example of how people will bypass the original intent of rules to get what they want. If your local Chevy's was open access to all dogs I think everyone could imagine what it would look like on a Friday night.

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    probably illegal at boggs

    22 miles of unimproved roads and more than 14 miles of non-motorized use trails

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    Pedal assist bicycles... I've gotten to ride a few now. I think they are super interesting and every year, the progress is impressive.

    Laws and prejudice in the US will make it very difficult for these bikes to get going here.

    They will grow in popularity and acceptance for sure. Probably the first areas are:

    - Commuter bikes. It's just a no-brainer for longer commutes and weaker/older riders.

    - shuttle trails, lift assisted. Downieville, Northstar, etc are mostly assisted trails. A pedal assist bike is closer there to current use.

    - big/wide america and the world. Trail access is not as crowded or contentious as Norcal. So pedal assist will probably start getting used in the wide open spaces in the US and the world.

    So, it will be a slow and interesting process/debate for these bikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plantdude View Post
    For those with disabilities I am open to them, for some areas.
    This raises questions for me. Clearly, any cyclist can fall, get hurt in the woods, and be stranded. But if I pop my chain, or bust a wheel, at least I can walk out of the park with my bike. If a handicapped person falls, or even encounters an obstacle that is intimidating them, what are they going to do? I don't think these things belong on ST, especially if the rider is handicapped. This is no prejudice from my end, just food for thought.
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    I thought they were called mopeds?
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  20. #20
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Ebikes do not belong on trails that prohibit motorized vehicle usage. I don't like hearing motors buzzing around, or people blasting their music.
    Last edited by shredchic; 06-16-2014 at 07:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    Ebikes do not belong on trails that probibit motorized vehicle usage. I don't like hearing motors buzzing around, or people blasting their music.
    Most high end hubs are exponentially louder than an ebike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    Most high end hubs are exponentially louder than an ebike.
    yeah, or what about avids? heavy breathers? squeaky bottom brackets? porkstacker?

    i don't think there is anything inherently wrong with an ebike. if a bike could delivery X supplemental watts two riders of different strength to weight ratios could ride together up a climb at the same perceived effort. there are a lot of applications where this could be beneficial.

    i also get the objections to having "eMotorcycles" out on trails alongside hikers and bikes. in ca, motorized bicycles are categorized as delivering < 1000w and going < 20 mph: V C Section 406 Motorized Bicycle why not have a classification that imposes lower limits? even a 100w boost would be huge for most folks and that's no where near enough to have it be considered emoto.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    Most high end hubs are exponentially louder than an ebike.
    No, actually, they are not.
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    I dunno.

    I don't like them, although I can't really articulate why. It's just a gut reaction to something that seems deceivingly innocuous. It's kinda like when jet skis--or kayakers--starting showing up in the surf lineup.

    Or when e-cigarettes popped up. Or when sharks starting being equipped with lasers.

    You just know that things will never be the same...
    Last edited by dirtvert; 06-17-2014 at 10:18 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by modbog View Post
    if a bike could delivery X supplemental watts two riders of different strength to weight ratios could ride together up a climb at the same perceived effort. there are a lot of applications where this could be beneficial.
    Beneficial how? Would the e-bikers get participation medals too?

  26. #26
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    IMO the DMV definition of "motorized bicycles" that modbog mentions is a reasonable "line in the sand". A 1000 watt pedal-assist that cuts power at 20 mph is a far cry from a 6KW twist-grip e-motocrosser.

    I'm happy sharing multi-use trails with the DMV-defined e-bikes; especially if the rider has some sort of a disability. (someday; we will all be there!)

    The 6KW twist-grip e-motocrossers need to go to the SVRA's, etc just like their petro-powered cousins.

    I was recently involved in a permitted event at Coe SP where the rangers approved the use of a couple of e-bikes; I was really, really, really surprised that they were allowed. (BTW JL de Jong was along for that event but on a "normal" MTB) The ranger's criteria seemed to be "does it look like a regular bicycle?" (which they did)

    For State Parks my crystal ball says that e-bikes will be allowed on fire/jeep roads; not allowed on single track.
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    Interesting this thread came up when it did. I'm thinking of making a DH eBike for myself. Each person has their reasons for riding an eBike. I have mine too. Be it age, disability, or whatever. Let's face it. To have pedal-assist uphill and not tire yourself out, sounds good to me.

    I was wondering about trail access and general acceptance, or lack thereof. If I did go with an eBike, I intend to avoid trails marked "No motorized vehicles." If its an electric motor or gas motor, its still motorized. If riding an eBike there, I'd assume you can get a ticket, and should get a ticket.

    As a user, I'd also avoid spinning the tires as much as possible to save the trails, slow down around other trail users, obey posted speed limits, ride not slide...all the same rules for regular bikes and trail courtesies that should be observed. I'm not looking to rip up the hills, just get to the top without killing myself on a long-travel DH bike that I could otherwise, not pedal up. Some others could but not I.

    I could see with the power that these eBikes could potentially have, there could easily be land misuse issues. But as it stands now, these bikes have to follow the same rules as any bike. I think perhaps the biggest issues that separate these eBikes from regular bikes are speed, noise levels, and spinning of tires. It seems then that the speed issue is addressed with posted speed limits on many trails, noise addressed by not allowing motorized vehicles. That leaves the issue of erosion. For now without postings on that, just like the "ride, don't slide" unwritten rule (at least not posted signs for that on many trails), the eBike users have to exercise caution on the power trigger.

    With the eBike technologies becoming better and more affordable, the MTB eBike is coming sooner or later. And why not get out there and enjoy the trails more? That's what the trails are for.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    Saw an older (late 50s?) guy coming off of Gails into the parking lot on a pedal-assisted mountain bike.

    I didn't want to give him crap about it or start any drama, so I just silently judged him as he rode away.

    What are your guys thoughts on these contraptions on the trails?
    Negating any argument for or against an E-Bike, it's a good thing you didn't approach him about his bike. That man has single handedly done more work in the Boggs Forrest than any other single person.. He can be thanked for the upkeep on all the campsites. The installation of all outhouses, picnic tables, and BBQ rings, A great deal of road maintenance, and countless hours of trail work. He would have been very quick to set you in your place about it all too. Joe, I'm not sure we're you are from, but it obviously ain't from round these parts..😉

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cobb View Post
    Joe, I'm not sure we're you are from, but it obviously ain't from round these parts..😉
    Yes, clearly - Note that I have all of my teeth. But seriously though, I kept the discussion about the e-bikes on trails rather than slander this guy, I said that he was older, which hinted at his possible need for one, but that was it. But yeah, that's why you don't just call strangers you don't know out, which I didn't.
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Back Aug of 2012 I started chemo and I wanted to ride as that is the only thing that cleared my mind. I would go out on the trails and ride but the days right after chemo were brutal. There were days that I was sure I was going to pass out on my 10 mile loop.

    When chemo ended i was left with a new problem (neuropathy) in my hands and feet which was exacerbated when I had to climb and exert more force on the pedals.

    On one of my rides I collapsed when I got off the bike because my feet hurt so bad.

    I am certain if I had a pedal assisted Bike it would've made riding more enjoyable and not a painful experience.

    A little over a year later I've learned how to deal with the pain and the good news is my neuropathy is getting better but not gone.

    So I am personally torn and I also think it would be awesome if my wife and I could ride together and similar speed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Way2ManyBikes View Post
    Back Aug of 2012 I started chemo and I wanted to ride as that is the only thing that cleared my mind. I would go out on the trails and ride but the days right after chemo were brutal. There were days that I was sure I was going to pass out on my 10 mile loop.

    When chemo ended i was left with a new problem (neuropathy) in my hands and feet which was exacerbated when I had to climb and exert more force on the pedals.

    On one of my rides I collapsed when I got off the bike because my feet hurt so bad.

    I am certain if I had a pedal assisted Bike it would've made riding more enjoyable and not a painful experience.

    A little over a year later I've learned how to deal with the pain and the good news is my neuropathy is getting better but not gone.

    So I am personally torn and I also think it would be awesome if my wife and I could ride together and similar speed.
    Exactly, And you have every right to ride any bike you choose, regular bike or ebike, whatever. Go for it.
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    Old thread but great discussion too, mostly in favor of the eBike idea: Zumbi F44 prototype with Boosty electric motor system video
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    Yes, clearly - Note that I have all of my teeth. But seriously though, I kept the discussion about the e-bikes on trails rather than slander this guy, I said that he was older, which hinted at his possible need for one, but that was it. But yeah, that's why you don't just call strangers you don't know out, which I didn't.
    Good job Joe! PM me next time you are up, I can show you some of the locals routes.. Boggs is rad!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Cobb View Post
    Good job Joe! PM me next time you are up, I can show you some of the locals routes.. Boggs is rad!
    My family actually has a cabin in Ettawa, I've been riding Boggs for quite a while now, and before I was on this earth my Uncles rode their dirt bikes up there, but I'd love to see more of what Lake County has to offer, I will take you up on that. Hopefully no hard feelings about the thread?
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    It is really a matter of time. As long as one is fit enough and values the experience of muscular effort, leg powered transport will hold. At some point though when you get around 60 or so, you guys now at 45 or so will get passed by guys on these contraptions, your will shall crumble and you will get on the bandwagon of bikes. Heck, we already have a shuttle crowd so this is the nest step.

    For me, at 62, if I wanted a motorcycle I'd have taken it up years ago. As a Fail Safe, I have made a pact with my son to shoot me if I ever extol the virtues of those funny mirrors that attach to your helmet.
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    As a Fail Safe, I have made a pact with my son to shoot me if I ever extol the virtues of those funny mirrors that attach to your helmet.
    I am going to ask my daughters to do the same.
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    I basically feel that it's difficult for a land manager to decide where that line in the sand is drawn. Many states don't have a DMV definition of an ebike (I realize this is a regional forum), and the technology has been moving faster than legislation could.

    Full disclosure, I love ebikes (just not on trails). I personally built one of those 6kw throttle twisters, though in a longtail cargo bike (for hauling things, commuting, and fun on pavement). From experience I can tell you that it's easy to build a sleeper to satisfy the "looks like a bike" criterion.

    Given that, I feel that ebikes generally are a trail access risk. I'd personally rather see some of those legitimate use cases for ebikes not enjoyed for the time being than see a knee-jerk reaction from land managers that affects non-motorized mountain bikers.

    I posted the following in a thread of myitch's asking for specific experience re: ebikes, and it was pointed out that thread wasn't really the place for an anti-ebike-on-trail rant. So, I moved it over here. Please take all the condescension and vitriol as merely an expression of passion for the trails and not as a personal attack. Looking back on what I wrote, I feel like I lost a lot of nuance too. Anyway, here it is:

    Quote Originally Posted by lazarus2405
    Quote Originally Posted by myitch View Post
    As long as the Ebike user is not spinning the tires fast enough to tear up the trails or fly past others causing danger or a nuisance I see no problem with them. So I'd like to hear from someone who has done this conversion on their long travel bike.
    You're going to get a lot of hate here for asking that sort of question (it isn't personal). Mountain bikers as a community have to try to police our own, though. If you've ever been told not to ride on muddy trails, this is 50x worse.

    So let's say for argument's sake you used a motor to self-shuttle, bombing down a trail under muscle power and then motoring up the road, I in principle wouldn't have a problem with that - it seems on the surface like a reasonable use case. But, it opens up a whole set of problems that don't have easy solutions.

    How many riders do you expect to never be tempted to give it a little throttle on the way down? It's right there, and it's so easy. Don't have quite enough speed approaching a jump? Just give it a little power and problem solved, right? But at that point, you have motor vehicles operating on the trails.

    So what's the big deal, if you're not tearing up trails or causing danger to other trail users? The problem is that not everyone would ride that way, and it's hard to tell who the responsible rider are.

    Land managers need to be able to protect their resources - it's their first job. We get access to their parks by convincing them that mountain biking is a sustainable activity that protects the resource while allowing the public to recreate. Impact is minimized because trails are limited to a narrow 18" band of single track, trails are built in a sustainable way to minimize erosion, and trails can be used for a variety of non-motorized purposes. If you have motor vehicles on trails, it becomes much more difficult to convince a land manager that resources are protected.

    A motorcycle - and an e-bike - could start bushwacking, making its own trails. It's a surefire way to get a ton of fall line climbs (which turn into wide eroded POS scar on the earth mess of a trail), when motorized climb steep things by grabbing throttle.

    Motorized users can travel faster, and more importantly they can accelerate much faster. They have higher vehicle weights and different erosion-causing characteristics. With the extra power of a motor, you can tolerate the higher rolling resistance and rotating weight of a bigger tire. A downhill tire might be 2.5" wide, but motocross tires are often 4+" wide. A large knobby downhill tire causes reasonably low erosion because there's relatively low torque being applied to it. If you start applying motor power to it or try bringing a 400lb vehicle-and-rider to a stop, you get tread erosion you just don't see in pedal-driven usage.

    But e-bikes are different - they aren't motorcycles, right? Then where do you draw the line between an e-bike and an electric motorcycle? Is it curb weight, geometry, whether it has a pedalable drivetrain, whether it uses bicycle or motorcycle components? Right now on the market there are complete bikes everywhere on that spectrum. Good luck trying to split those hairs. How about power output or torque or something similar? I promise you that if you can fit a 500w system on a bike, you can turn it into a 2000w system that would look identical to the untrained eye. Do you expect forest rangers to have to identify whether a user has a 20 amp motor controller or a 130 amp controller on their bike (and write a ticket accordingly)?

    So you've set up a situation where you can't distinguish between "legitimate" e-bike users and motorcycle-like e-bike usage. That is untenable from a land manager's point of view. They either need to allow motorized use (and the potential user conflict and resource damage involved), or they need to ban e-bikes and other motorized travel, or they need to ban all bicycles. If it isn't easy to tell the differences between a mountain bike and an e-bike and the difference between an e-bike and a motorcycle, I don't think it's too hard to imagine some land managers taking the easiest route - banning all bikes.

    So, in closing, I think e-bikes are great. I think everyone should be able to enjoy their preferred method of recreation, and if that involves a motor, you should be able to have fun. In places where motorized use is allowed - and there are many, including single track - I don't see any problem with e-bikes. But riding an e-bike on a trail on public land designated for non-motorized use only jeopardizes trail access for everyone.

    So no, please do not bring an e-bike on the (non-motorized) public trails. It can have consequences for everyone, undermining volunteer work to build and maintain trails and threatening trail closures. If you still choose to, you are selfish, and f*ck you.

  38. #38
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    Re: Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Interestingly, I just saw fresh green "no assisted bikes or scooters" signs at the beginning of the bike path on Sunday.

    sent remotely

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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    No, actually, they are not.
    "Exponentially" was probably a stretch but I've been passed by a few of them around town and they are not loud at all. They will only get quieter, faster and lighter in the next few years too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by modbog View Post
    yeah, or what about avids? heavy breathers? squeaky bottom brackets? porkstacker?
    Funny.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lazarus2405 View Post
    Given that, I feel that ebikes generally are a trail access risk. I'd personally rather see some of those legitimate use cases for ebikes not enjoyed for the time being than see a knee-jerk reaction from land managers that affects non-motorized mountain bikers.
    ^ 'xactly
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    "Exponentially" was probably a stretch but I've been passed by a few of them around town and they are not loud at all. They will only get quieter, faster and lighter in the next few years too.
    They are not loud around town because there is other, louder traffic noise to mask it. Out in the woods, where it's quiet, it's a really annoying buzzing. Same thing with drones (yes, people are now flying drones in the National Parks). Anyway - the noise isn't the biggest issue for me - the biggest issue is making people even more annoyed with mountain bikers than they already are, and land mgrs. more willing to ban all bikes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    "As a Fail Safe, I have made a pact with my son to shoot me if I ever extol the virtues of those funny mirrors that attach to your helmet.
    'I am going to ask my daughters to do the same. '"

    I would think that oblivious and in denial road boulders are the ones that deserve to be shot, not the conscientious bikers that are wearing mirrors, paying attention to what is coming up behind them and yielding the way. What am I missing here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    Out in the woods, where it's quiet, it's a really annoying buzzing.
    Exactly. We should outlaw Kings and Hope hubs.

  45. #45
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    If we can't tar and feather the culprits, I vote for e-bikes so long as they are speed limited to 15mph. Soon enough, I'll need one to go up the mountains, so there.
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by dope pedaler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    "As a Fail Safe, I have made a pact with my son to shoot me if I ever extol the virtues of those funny mirrors that attach to your helmet.
    'I am going to ask my daughters to do the same. '"

    I would think that oblivious and in denial road boulders are the ones that deserve to be shot, not the conscientious bikers that are wearing mirrors, paying attention to what is coming up behind them and yielding the way. What am I missing here?
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    Ebikes do not belong on trails that prohibit motorized vehicle usage.
    I think the issue is as simple as this. ^^^^^^

  49. #49
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    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    They are not loud around town because there is other, louder traffic noise to mask it. Out in the woods, where it's quiet, it's a really annoying buzzing. Same thing with drones (yes, people are now flying drones in the National Parks). Anyway - the noise isn't the biggest issue for me - the biggest issue is making people even more annoyed with mountain bikers than they already are, and land mgrs. more willing to ban all bikes.
    If you think they are a bad idea in parks and threaten our already shaky access, that's a perfectly fine argument. I would tend to agree with you. The noise issue to me is negligible though. We all have our pet peeves out on the trails and if this is yours that's fine. I find big group rides or people riding with ear buds far more annoying personally. I think we have all "whooped" louder than an ebike hundreds of times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slocaus View Post
    I am not sure this applies to e-bikes that meet that 20mph/pedal assist definition. I think those are classified as bicycles, not motorized bicycles, aren't they?

    In any case, if I am to use them, I would use under ADA rules. Hope it will be not too soon, maybe we will have something else to worry about then.

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    OK it's a trike...

    ...but:


    BTW they made their funding goal.
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    I am not sure this applies to e-bikes that meet that 20mph/pedal assist definition. I think those are classified as bicycles, not motorized bicycles.
    Some bike brands are pushing e-bikes and this is what they quote to CA dealers about using e-bike on dirt trails. An electric motor is still a motor by this definition.

    We had a trail work volunteer who developed Parkinsons, and CA State Parks had to issue a special permission for him to try a Segway on any trails that were not already designated ADA. They cited that DMV code as the reason an exception was required.
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by slocaus View Post
    We had a trail work volunteer who developed Parkinsons, and CA State Parks had to issue a special permission for him to try a Segway on any trails that were not already designated ADA. They cited that DMV code as the reason an exception was required.
    Interesting. My reading was that the recent ADA ruling on "other" mobility devices was that they need to be specifically excluded from a public trail, not the other way around - with that being a federal law. Obviously, I am not a lawyer, and did not really study this question.

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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Hungus View Post
    If you think they are a bad idea in parks and threaten our already shaky access, that's a perfectly fine argument. I would tend to agree with you. The noise issue to me is negligible though. We all have our pet peeves out on the trails and if this is yours that's fine. I find big group rides or people riding with ear buds far more annoying personally. I think we have all "whooped" louder than an ebike hundreds of times.
    Agreed - The noise thing really is just a pet peeve, not a serious concern. I even put a silent hub on my latest bike. Heck, blue jays are pretty obnoxious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    Agreed - The noise thing really is just a pet peeve, not a serious concern. I even put a silent hub on my latest bike. Heck, blue jays are pretty obnoxious.
    Blue Jays are like the chihuahuas of the forest. Give it a rest Blue Jays.

  57. #57
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    I'm indignant, and I have an opinion on those 'E BIKES'. You bet I do. I know there are a lot of people just like me. Mad and indignant about something.

    Rant off!
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post
    IMO the DMV definition of "motorized bicycles" that modbog mentions is a reasonable "line in the sand". A 1000 watt pedal-assist that cuts power at 20 mph is a far cry from a 6KW twist-grip e-motocrosser.

    I'm happy sharing multi-use trails with the DMV-defined e-bikes; especially if the rider has some sort of a disability. (someday; we will all be there!)
    Agreed! One day I'm going to be too old and/or too out of shape to finish a long distance ride with my son, and I'd rather ride with him on an e-bike than not ride.

    I don't think motorized bicycles have any place in a competitive world, but if they allow people to ride with their friends and loved ones when they otherwise wouldn't be able to, I'm all for them.

  59. #59
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    I test rode one of these bosch ebikes with a skeptical eye. It turned out to be one of the coolest things I had ever ridden and it didn't even have the sort of bike geometry that I prefer (I'm more of a slack head angle, low bottom bracket, gravity type of person).

    I first thought it was for fat people who didn't want to put in the work to put around local trails that they couldn't normally get to... But it just isn't so.

    You still have to pedal and you still get what you give on the bike. Sprint hard and the bike will go fast, pedal slow and it won't. Also once you're up over 20mph you might as well shut the motor off because it won't produce any more power and creates drag.

    So yeah, you still work hard on climbs, and you're not going to hit some ridiculous motor assisted speed on the DH, but what you do get out of it is awesome range. If the casual user were to normally pedal a 15 mile loop and be tired, now they could do 30 in the same amount of time. Hills that would normally leave you completely drained will just work up a sweat and raise your heart rate and descents... well, they stay the same. I was noticeably slower unless I bothered to reach over and turn the pedal assist all the way off.

    Over all, I wasn't' speeding up climbs at break neck speed, but maybe national xc champ speed for sure. I wasn't roosting around corners or peeling out on climbs (believe me, I tried). I was sweaty and tired at the end just like I had gone for a normal bike ride, but I had covered twice the distance that I normally would on a 1 hour loop.

    The first one of these that comes out in the states with good AM geometry and 5-6" of travel front and rear will get serious consideration from me. Would I replace my dirt bike with one? Heck no. Would I replace my every day pedal bike? Maybe.

  60. #60
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    Stealth Bomber can get up to 50 miles per hour, kinda want one

    Go get that KOM "You Deserve" - http://www.digitalepo.com/index.php

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    Gotta say those are pretty cool Tbc.
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  62. #62
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    When bikes approach the level of gas powered dirt bikes, push will definitely come to shove. As such, we are looking at the nose of the camel in the tent.
    I don't rattle.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    I think the issue is as simple as this. ^^^^^^
    +1, plus concerns for greater challenges to access.
    Every rose has it's thorn.

    enjoy the ear worm

  64. #64
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    BTW, what is the real intention of refusing motorized access? What qualities do they express that make them a problem?
    I don't rattle.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorg View Post
    If we can't tar and feather the culprits, I vote for e-bikes so long as they are speed limited to 15mph. Soon enough, I'll need one to go up the mountains, so there.
    Zorg, Mission Peak frowns at your comments...You'll be skidding the uphill turn from the Grass Forest onto the fire road as you make your way to the port O potty at the junction to the Stanford Rd. trail. Electricity is overrated.
    Cheers!
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  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeBC View Post
    Stealth Bomber can get up to 50 miles per hour, kinda want one

    That dude pedaled less than 20 times through the entire video. That isn't mountain biking.... it's riding a motorized, light-weight dirt bike. Sure it looks fun... till the battery dies. I see nothing good for MTB coming from this impending reality. Be prepared!

  67. #67
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    Probably not fun to lift a 120 pound "bike" over deadfalll and other trail obstacles, not to mention trying to get it out miles from a trailhead if something goes wrong. Still would like to try one, running laps on something like corral that allow motorized traffic would probably be dam fun.
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    If anyone here saw the 10 ft long burnouts after corners and up hills at my local trails, they'd agree that motorized is motorized regardless of how big the motor is.

    Just like a 50cc dirtbike is banned the same as a 450cc, electric mtb should be banned the same as electric dirtbikes. For those contesting that it enables them to enjoy mtb after becoming disabled, maybe you should consider a hobby you're capable of. No offense, but I'd you're not capable of doing something, you probably shouldn't do it.

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  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaythePedaler View Post
    No offense, but I'd you're not capable of doing something, you probably shouldn't do it.
    Why is everything that starts with "no offense" is always a load of smug bull****?

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    It's not smug, it's care. I don't want to see a semi-disabled guy die in a trail or be stuck there overnight because he's incapable of pedaling his heavy toy out of a trail he couldn't ride on a normal bike.

    We all have limits, respecting them is how we stay alive.

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  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    Saw an older (late 50s?) guy coming off of Gails into the parking lot on a pedal-assisted mountain bike.

    I didn't want to give him crap about it or start any drama, so I just silently judged him as he rode away.

    What are your guys thoughts on these contraptions on the trails?
    I dunno.. . I don't think it's a big deal. It's not a moto where it can tear up the trails and roost dirt. It's just an electric assist booster to get up the hills.

    IMO, more bikes the better. I don't think banning them will do any good.

    Apart from that, is this just a case of 'somebody else is getting p***y but me?'

    I mean, I think folks riding DH bikes at China Camp is silly, but I don't want them banned.

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    It's not just an assist, ride one of them, they roost with no problem and tear up trails. New ones are literally 50mph and well over 1kw, on par with 80cc dirtbikes. You wouldn't let an 80cc dirtbike in the trail, or a mtb with an 80cc motor, why is an electric motor any different?

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  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    Ebikes do not belong on trails that prohibit motorized vehicle usage. I don't like hearing motors buzzing around, or people blasting their music.
    Waaaaah! Let's ban ebikes because I don't like bikes making a reasonable amount of noise (probably less than 65 dbspl). Geez, you can talk over them.

    I think it's reasonable to put a cap on the power, tho.... maybe say, 250 watts, boosting up to 10mph of boost for trail use, seems reasonable to me.

    Yeah, 1000W is like 1 1/4 horsepower. Although, an 80cc Honda motorcycle 4 stroke gas motor kicks out 4000 watts (5.44 horsepower) pushing a 140 pound bike... and say an average 180 pound adult male rider. (source: Honda CRF 80 F 2012 Motorcycle Photos and Specs)

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaythePedaler View Post
    It's not smug, it's care. I don't want to see a semi-disabled guy die in a trail or be stuck there overnight because he's incapable of pedaling his heavy toy out of a trail he couldn't ride on a normal bike.

    We all have limits, respecting them is how we stay alive.

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    Same example I used earlier in the thread.. it's a touchy issue, but it's true.
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    They have 4kw e-bikes. You can buy 10k ones as well, 1k is pretty basic...

    Capping it at a certain wattage or boost is impossible to patrol. Banning motorized vehicles in general had always been the solution.

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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaythePedaler View Post
    They have 4kw e-bikes. You can buy 10k ones as well, 1k is pretty basic...

    Capping it at a certain wattage or boost is impossible to patrol. Banning motorized vehicles in general had always been the solution.

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    I don't think it would be impossible at all.

    Ranger stops biker because he's roosting up the trails like an asshat (which is it's own offense that Mr. Ranger can cite him for). Take a look at the model number and rating of the powered hub. If in question, bike is confiscated until a more complete inspection has been completed.

    From the arguments I'm seeing in this debate, all of the negatives seem to be based on unsubstantiated fears.... damaging trails (like the rest of us never spun a rear wheel while riding up a hill), I don't like the noise, somebody getting an electric boost somehow offends me as a 'real' cyclist.

    Whereas, the positives are, somebody with less physical abilities can get out and ride some trails, ride longer.

    I say the positives outweigh the negatives, and most of the negatives can be mitigated by some minor adjustments in procedures and rules.

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    I rather like the solution of banning motorized toys in general. No asshats, no torn up trails, no worrying about confiscation.

    Honestly, I haven't seen a ranger patrol in at least 3 years of exclusively riding patrolled state park trails.

    The electronic nerd in me would like to point out that a 400w motor can put out 800w if you double the voltage, and no sticker is going to indicate that.

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  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaythePedaler View Post
    I rather like the solution of banning motorized toys in general. No asshats, no torn up trails, no worrying about confiscation.

    Honestly, I haven't seen a ranger patrol in at least 3 years of exclusively riding patrolled state park trails.

    The electronic nerd in me would like to point out that a 400w motor can put out 800w if you double the voltage, and no sticker is going to indicate that.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

    ... but not for very long until you burn the coils, or shred the gears. They have a rating for a reason.

    I mean, don't get me wrong. I don't think this is something I would do for a mountain bike ride, for sure. I'm a strong believer in 'earning your turns'. But, I don't think I have a right to take this away from anybody else unless there is a really good reason to... and honestly I'm not seeing it here.

    I've ridden electric street bikes before, and they're a blast. I could totally see an electric cargo bike replacing car trips to the store for light stock-ups... and I think burning fewer dead dinosaurs is a good thing. I rode a 250W Trek electric bike, and it felt plenty torque-y to me. I would probably need a 500W bike to get my big behind up my 1000' vertical street climb with lots of batteries, if I wanted to do it without pedaling... probably with a 10 mph top speed.

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    Still, the old adage "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" applies. Do you really think allowing it, waiting for unsafe riders to destroy the trail, and hoping a ranger will do something to stop it is better than just not allowing it in the first place? I feel it's just inviting trouble by allowing an exception.

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    The power rating on the hub, if it exists, is only nominal. If you take a 750w hub meant for a 36v system (with a 20 or 25amp controller), and run it at 72v and 40+ amps, suddenly it's a 2.5kw bike. That hub motor will happily tolerate the voltage, and most will withstand short bursts of very high power as long as you can keep the temperature down.

    You could rig up all sorts of ways to hide a bike's power when it's being investigated. Imagine a secret magnet that closes a reed switch, without which the bike doesn't excreted some current or speed limit (controller shunt mod, controller programming, external throttle signal limit, many ways to implement it). Speaking from experience, these are not hypothetical. Ebikers have been playing with these methods for years (on pavement, at least).

    So no, I don't expect rangers to inspect and police that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeBC View Post
    Stealth Bomber can get up to 50 miles per hour, kinda want one

    The only thing that makes this contraption a "bike" is that it has peddles. In every other way it is a moto. It has the power and torque to do some serious trail damage, and there's no way it should be allowed on non-motorized trails. Looks like it can roost up the trail as good as any other moto can, (dude even says how cool it is that he can "power out of the berms with it") and I'm pretty sure that every other trail user would NOT be stoked to have these things flying up on them at 50+ mph, especially without the usual loud noise of a traditional moto to warn them...
    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?-screen-shot-2014-06-18-11.14.17-am.jpgPedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?-screen-shot-2014-06-18-11.15.37-am.jpgPedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?-screen-shot-2014-06-18-11.17.43-am.jpgPedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?-screen-shot-2014-06-18-11.30.28-am.jpg

    Keep them on trails open to motorized use only.

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    Ah, but the stealth bikes (the ones causing problems in my local trails) are mostly mtb. Grips, pedals, tires, rims, front fork, rear shock, seat, post, handlebars, stem, chain, brakes, cranks are all of the shelf mtb parts.

    In my mind, this is whati think of when I hear electric mtb.

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    I dunno... this sounds more like a lot of fear than reality to me.

    The folks I've seen riding ebikes on the trails have basically been chugging up the climbs at 5 mph, and riding down. I don't see that as a big deal, other than my thinking they're just being a bit lazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    ... but not for very long until you burn the coils, or shred the gears. They have a rating for a reason.
    For hub motors specifically, the ratings are quite conservative. Winding insulation is usually good to about 70C. Since they're wrapped around a big hunk of soft iron, acting as a heat sink, they can withstand a lot more than you'd expect. In practice, it's very hard to cook a larger (>7lb) hub motor. Even then, there are ways of improving heat transfer from the stator to the outside, such as venting the side covers or filling the hub with a light heat transfer oil.

    Most geared hub motors use either all nylon gears, or one steel gear and two nylon gears, in order to reduce noise. They can often be replaced with all steel gears to better withstand the sort of torque you can get out of them with over-volting and high-current controllers.

    Direct-drive hubs, on the other hand, have no gears to strip. Your torque is only limited by the strength of the wheel build, the hub's axle, or the bike's dropouts, whichever fails first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdrpiffle View Post
    Zorg, Mission Peak frowns at your comments...You'll be skidding the uphill turn from the Grass Forest onto the fire road as you make your way to the port O potty at the junction to the Stanford Rd. trail. Electricity is overrated.
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  86. #86
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    Re: Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    For the guys saying the power gain isn't going to hurt the trails... I think you're missing the point.

    Go to Northstar and ride boondocks. Then, a about a mile from there by the crow, ride TRT single-track around martis peak, down around Watson lake into Tahoe City. Both trail systems have been through the same precipitation, but the Watson area single track was probably open weeks earlier than Northstar, which opened Jun 6. Despite that, the difference in the current condition of the two trails is enormous. Boondocks is a moondust mess, while the trails outside the park are still in great shape, well packed and firm by comparison.

    Is this because the Northstar crowd skids more (per mile of ride)? Maybe a little, but the main cause of the crappy condition of boondocks is that it gets MUCH more traffic. A lot of this traffic is lift only riders who rarely, if ever, ride outside a park and actually climb something. The lifts bring many riders to the trails who would not be there if they had to climb to the top of zephyr.

    This is what ebikes will do. Today, having to pedal naturally limits the number of riders who hit the trails and the distance a typical rider covers in a day. Even if ebikes caused the exact same damage per mile as regular bikes, the trails will still be significantly degraded, because, more riders (who do not ride today) will be hitting them, and the average rider will ride longer. For all intents and purposes trails are a finite, limited resource and we (mountain bikers) should generally limit traffic on trails and protect them.

    I'm sorry to those who are disabled who cannot ride any other way, but, if we limit ebikes to disabled riders there is no way to effectively police it. People abuse these systems all the time, bringing their 'service' chihuahuas into restaurants and parking in disabled parking spots, outside their gym, to go inside and hit the elliptical.

    I have shoulder problems, I can't get go surfing because I can't get out past the breakers. Do I demand they put up a wave-break outside the breaker zone to calm the waves? No. I live with it and find sports I can do.

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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by RaythePedaler View Post
    It's not smug, it's care. I don't want to see a semi-disabled guy die in a trail or be stuck there overnight because he's incapable of pedaling his heavy toy out of a trail he couldn't ride on a normal bike.

    We all have limits, respecting them is how we stay alive.
    You are assuming disabled do not know what they are doing. You are wrong.

    I am also glad that ADA laws are there to protect those whom you think just should die quietly in the safe confines of their homes.

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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by ddprocter View Post
    For the guys saying the power gain isn't going to hurt the trails... I think you're missing the point.

    Go to Northstar and ride boondocks. Then, a about a mile from there by the crow, ride TRT single-track around martis peak, down around Watson lake into Tahoe City. Both trail systems have been through the same precipitation, but the Watson are single track was probably open weeks earlier than Northstar, which opened Jun 6. Despite that, the difference in the current condition of the two trails is enormous. Boondocks is a moondust mess, while the trails outside the park are still in great shape, well packed and firm by comparison.

    Is this because the Northstar crowd skids more (per mile of ride)? Maybe a little, but the main cause of the crappy condition of boondocks is that it gets MUCH more traffic. A lot of this traffic is lift only riders who rarely, if ever, ride outside a park and actually climb something. The lifts bring many riders to the trails who would not be there if they had to climb to the top of zephyr.

    This is what ebikes will do. Today, having to pedal naturally limits the number of riders who hit the trails and the distance a typical rider covers in a day. Even if ebikes caused the exact same damage per mile as regular bikes, the trails will still be significantly degraded, because, more riders (who do not ride today) will be hitting them, and the average rider will ride longer. For all intents and purposes trails are a finite, limited resource and we (mountain bikers) should generally limit traffic on trails and protect them.

    I'm sorry to those who are disabled who cannot ride any other way, but, if we limit ebikes to disabled riders there is no way to effectively police it. People abuse these systems all the time, bringing their 'service' chihuahuas into restaurants and parking in disabled parking spots, outside their gym, to go inside and hit the elliptical.

    I have shoulder problems, I can't get go surfing because I can't get out past the breakers. Do I demand they put up a wave-break outside the breaker zone to calm the waves? No. I live with it and find sports I can do.
    The solution is obvious, build more trails.

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    Re: Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    You are assuming disabled do not know what they are doing. You are wrong.

    I am also glad that ADA laws are there to protect those whom you think just should die quietly in the safe confines of their homes.
    He never said that, and you don't address the issue.

    Proponents tout the ability to go further than you could unassisted and to allow those who otherwise couldn't get out into the back country to do so. When, not if, your drive fails, how do you get out? If you are out farther than you can pedal manually, do you call in a search party?

    If you truly need pedal assist to get out there, then you need it to get back. Self reliance is critical in mountain biking.

    When I get old and my body starts to fail me, I may not be able to bike. **** happens, and I'll adjust my lifestyle accordingly. There are a LOT of things most old folks can't do. There are things people with specific disabilities can't do(and lots they can). People love to play PC police and pretend otherwise, but it's still true.

    Buy a real moto and do your thing, if you need to ride. You can't expect motorized vehicles to be allowed on non moto trails. It's not a reasonable ask.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddprocter View Post
    ...

    Even if ebikes caused the exact same damage per mile as regular bikes, the trails will still be significantly degraded, because, more riders (who do not ride today) will be hitting them, and the average rider will ride longer. For all intents and purposes trails are a finite, limited resource and we (mountain bikers) should generally limit traffic on trails and protect them.

    ...

    More people will be riding bikes and they will ride longer???

    You're making a great case for e-bikes.

    I'm not all for e-bikes on trails but your reasoning seems so selfish. Downieville, Winter Park, Toads, Cannell, MBO, Whistler are primarily shuttle rides and they have brought much joy to riders and to the towns around them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllMountin' View Post
    He never said that, and you don't address the issue.

    Proponents tout the ability to go further than you could unassisted and to allow those who otherwise couldn't get out into the back country to do so. When, not if, your drive fails, how do you get out? If you are out farther than you can pedal manually, do you call in a search party?

    If you truly need pedal assist to get out there, then you need it to get back. Self reliance is critical in mountain biking.

    When I get old and my body starts to fail me, I may not be able to bike. **** happens, and I'll adjust my lifestyle accordingly. There are a LOT of things most old folks can't do. There are things people with specific disabilities can't do(and lots they can). People love to play PC police and pretend otherwise, but it's still true.

    Buy a real moto and do your thing, if you need to ride. You can't expect motorized vehicles to be allowed on non moto trails. It's not a reasonable ask.
    This^^^ is the point. I'm not exactly old (still under 50), but my left shoulder is held together with titanium and only has about 65% mobility these days, thus I gave up whitewater kayaking since I couldn't do a combat roll. Both of my big toe joints are shot and in need of replacement or fusing, thus I had to give up all but the most mellow backpacking, climbing, caving, and mountaineering because I can't walk that far. My right hip is titanium and my left soon will be, thus I'm forced to curtail some of my more demanding ski mountaineering and steep skiing/boarding because my joints can't handle the torque and impacts of drops and technical lines. It sucks, and it means that I can no longer access some of the places that are dearest to my heart, but it's also life. I suppose to some of you believe that I should be allowed to use any and all motorized methods to reach these places no matter where they are: Wilderness, Wild and Scenic Rivers, mountain peaks, remote caves, etc. I shouldn't and I don't expect to be able to, and that's the way it should be. If it's not, we might as well pave every single trail anywhere so that it's flat enough to be ADA compliant...

  92. #92
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    Re: Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    More people will be riding bikes and they will ride longer???

    You're making a great case for e-bikes.

    I'm not all for e-bikes on trails but your reasoning seems so selfish. Downieville, Winter Park, Toads, Cannell, MBO, Whistler are primarily shuttle rides and they have brought much joy to riders and to the towns around them.

    I hear what you're saying FC, but, I think folks on both extremes are being equally selfish. Yes, to be fair, I am saying I want to protect /limit trail access so I can enjoy them more. But the pro ebike folks are doing the same, by saying "I want access to these trails even if it means they will be overall degraded and lower quality for everyone." Neither side is being purely altruistic here.

    When you combine the trail degradation argument, with argument that ebikes may cause us to lose trail access (which is the other 50% of the debate for me) , I think the debate tips towards the fact that banning ebikes from non motorized trails is the greater good.

    Ebikers can go to N*, mammoth, Rubicon and other OHV trails across the Sierra, Hollister, and many other places already. Why do they need more, especially if it means potentially getting trails shut down and significant degrading them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    IMO, more bikes the better. I don't think banning them will do any good.
    I don't necessarily think this is the right mindset anymore. Mountain bikers aren't a tiny percentage of park users any more. Or an obscure subculture. I kind of wish LESS people rode sometimes... More bikes = more blown out trails from idiots that don't know how to ride, as has been expressed by others in the thread. In regards to your other comment about 'somebody else is getting p***y but me', I got my p***y that day and did 20 miles and 2200 ft, so no, that's not the case at all.
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    Again, what is the real intention of refusing motorized access? What qualities do they express that make them a problem? How does that relate to ebikes.

    Allmountain makes a comment that has traction with me:

    "Buy a real moto and do your thing, if you need to ride. You can't expect motorized vehicles to be allowed on non moto trails. It's not a reasonable ask."
    I don't rattle.

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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    If these stupid things become popular, it could cause trail access issues for all bikes. I can't believe how lazy people are; no wonder the USA is fattest country in the world.

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    Re: Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Again, what is the real intention of refusing motorized access? What qualities do they express that make them a problem? How does that relate to ebikes.
    Hey B-mike ,

    Again, ebikes on non motorized trails present two problems

    A ) Gives ammunition to the anti bike crowd, helping them get all bikes banned, using all predictable arguments, such as blurring the boundary between motorized and non motorized bikes and convincing trail managers that full motorized access is the mountain biking community's long term goal. Imagine the Mike V's of the world video of one of these things shooting around JMP and what damage that could do to long term access battles.

    B ) Dramatically increases the rate of trail degradation due to bringing many more riders to trails (more than would ride if unassisted climbing was required) and increasing the miles ridden by existing riders. besides making for crappy trails this also gives further ammunition to the anti bike crowd in case A )

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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by ddprocter View Post
    .

    When you combine the trail degradation argument...
    significant degrading them?
    You keep repeating this assumption, but it is about as proven as bikes endangering snakes. As in not at all.

    All your arguments equally apply to regular bicycles. More people, trails. Should we all just sit home so that dirt it not disturbed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ddprocter View Post
    Hey B-mike ,

    Again, ebikes on non motorized trails present two problems

    A ) Gives ammunition to the anti bike crowd, helping them get all bikes banned, using all predictable arguments, such as blurring the boundary between motorized and non motorized bikes and convincing trail managers that full motorized access is the mountain biking community's long term goal. Imagine the Mike V's of the world video of one of these things shooting around JMP and what damage that could do to long term access battles.

    B ) Dramatically increases the rate of trail degradation due to bringing many more riders to trails (more than would ride if unassisted climbing was required) and increasing the miles ridden by existing riders. besides making for crappy trails this also gives further ammunition to the anti bike crowd in case A )
    That is not quite where I wanted to go; what-ifs or how it can work against us going forward. I want to go back further to the basis, for the real intention, of refusing throttled/motorized access? What qualities do they express that make them a problem? How does that relate to ebikes.
    I don't rattle.

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    Re: Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    You keep repeating this assumption, but it is about as proven as bikes endangering snakes. As in not at all.

    Again I'll state this is a secondary part of my argument. But to me the proof is there: I think the comparison of lift served trails, which become complete chum very early in the season, to non lift served trails, shows that additional traffic makes the trail degrade much faster.

    Should we all just sit home so that dirt it not disturbed?
    This is a straw man argument. The answer is no, we shouldn't sit home, but, we shouldn't make it any easier, it should require a certain amount of hard work to 'consume' trails. When the effort to consume something becomes cheaper or free, consumption (in this case trail degradation) goes much faster. Its econ 101.

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    ddproctor, I think that the argument of increased numbers is weak, especially absent any factual data about the frequency of use of the two condition you present. Unless, of course, you simply want to say that the more the trails are used the more they degrade. In which case that works against us in terms of our future access to trips thus far denied to us.

    Or if you are talking about "earning your downhills", well, we've been there before and that gets us nowhere. For my part, I love the climb and simply riding up the hill doesn't have much meaning for me. So I guess I "earn" my climbs but so what. Not everyone has to ride that way.

    No, I think that this discussion has yet to hit on a fundamental understanding of this issue. As far as I can see most of the resistance boils down to just not liking the idea of power-assisted riding and coming up with reasons afterwards, reason to keep them off of "our" trails. And that, my friends, is exactly what the hikers and equestrians have been doing to us for years.
    I don't rattle.

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