Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LastLast
Results 76 to 100 of 192
  1. #76
    ballbuster
    Reputation: pimpbot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    12,639
    Quote Originally Posted by RaythePedaler View Post
    They have 4kw e-bikes. You can buy 10k ones as well, 1k is pretty basic...

    Capping it at a certain wattage or boost is impossible to patrol. Banning motorized vehicles in general had always been the solution.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
    I don't think it would be impossible at all.

    Ranger stops biker because he's roosting up the trails like an asshat (which is it's own offense that Mr. Ranger can cite him for). Take a look at the model number and rating of the powered hub. If in question, bike is confiscated until a more complete inspection has been completed.

    From the arguments I'm seeing in this debate, all of the negatives seem to be based on unsubstantiated fears.... damaging trails (like the rest of us never spun a rear wheel while riding up a hill), I don't like the noise, somebody getting an electric boost somehow offends me as a 'real' cyclist.

    Whereas, the positives are, somebody with less physical abilities can get out and ride some trails, ride longer.

    I say the positives outweigh the negatives, and most of the negatives can be mitigated by some minor adjustments in procedures and rules.

  2. #77
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    101
    I rather like the solution of banning motorized toys in general. No asshats, no torn up trails, no worrying about confiscation.

    Honestly, I haven't seen a ranger patrol in at least 3 years of exclusively riding patrolled state park trails.

    The electronic nerd in me would like to point out that a 400w motor can put out 800w if you double the voltage, and no sticker is going to indicate that.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

  3. #78
    ballbuster
    Reputation: pimpbot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    12,639
    Quote Originally Posted by RaythePedaler View Post
    I rather like the solution of banning motorized toys in general. No asshats, no torn up trails, no worrying about confiscation.

    Honestly, I haven't seen a ranger patrol in at least 3 years of exclusively riding patrolled state park trails.

    The electronic nerd in me would like to point out that a 400w motor can put out 800w if you double the voltage, and no sticker is going to indicate that.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

    ... but not for very long until you burn the coils, or shred the gears. They have a rating for a reason.

    I mean, don't get me wrong. I don't think this is something I would do for a mountain bike ride, for sure. I'm a strong believer in 'earning your turns'. But, I don't think I have a right to take this away from anybody else unless there is a really good reason to... and honestly I'm not seeing it here.

    I've ridden electric street bikes before, and they're a blast. I could totally see an electric cargo bike replacing car trips to the store for light stock-ups... and I think burning fewer dead dinosaurs is a good thing. I rode a 250W Trek electric bike, and it felt plenty torque-y to me. I would probably need a 500W bike to get my big behind up my 1000' vertical street climb with lots of batteries, if I wanted to do it without pedaling... probably with a 10 mph top speed.

  4. #79
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    101
    Still, the old adage "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" applies. Do you really think allowing it, waiting for unsafe riders to destroy the trail, and hoping a ranger will do something to stop it is better than just not allowing it in the first place? I feel it's just inviting trouble by allowing an exception.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

  5. #80
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    255
    The power rating on the hub, if it exists, is only nominal. If you take a 750w hub meant for a 36v system (with a 20 or 25amp controller), and run it at 72v and 40+ amps, suddenly it's a 2.5kw bike. That hub motor will happily tolerate the voltage, and most will withstand short bursts of very high power as long as you can keep the temperature down.

    You could rig up all sorts of ways to hide a bike's power when it's being investigated. Imagine a secret magnet that closes a reed switch, without which the bike doesn't excreted some current or speed limit (controller shunt mod, controller programming, external throttle signal limit, many ways to implement it). Speaking from experience, these are not hypothetical. Ebikers have been playing with these methods for years (on pavement, at least).

    So no, I don't expect rangers to inspect and police that.

  6. #81
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    789
    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeBC View Post
    Stealth Bomber can get up to 50 miles per hour, kinda want one

    The only thing that makes this contraption a "bike" is that it has peddles. In every other way it is a moto. It has the power and torque to do some serious trail damage, and there's no way it should be allowed on non-motorized trails. Looks like it can roost up the trail as good as any other moto can, (dude even says how cool it is that he can "power out of the berms with it") and I'm pretty sure that every other trail user would NOT be stoked to have these things flying up on them at 50+ mph, especially without the usual loud noise of a traditional moto to warn them...
    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?-screen-shot-2014-06-18-11.14.17-am.jpgPedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?-screen-shot-2014-06-18-11.15.37-am.jpgPedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?-screen-shot-2014-06-18-11.17.43-am.jpgPedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?-screen-shot-2014-06-18-11.30.28-am.jpg

    Keep them on trails open to motorized use only.

  7. #82
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    101
    Ah, but the stealth bikes (the ones causing problems in my local trails) are mostly mtb. Grips, pedals, tires, rims, front fork, rear shock, seat, post, handlebars, stem, chain, brakes, cranks are all of the shelf mtb parts.

    In my mind, this is whati think of when I hear electric mtb.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

  8. #83
    ballbuster
    Reputation: pimpbot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    12,639
    I dunno... this sounds more like a lot of fear than reality to me.

    The folks I've seen riding ebikes on the trails have basically been chugging up the climbs at 5 mph, and riding down. I don't see that as a big deal, other than my thinking they're just being a bit lazy.

  9. #84
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    255
    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    ... but not for very long until you burn the coils, or shred the gears. They have a rating for a reason.
    For hub motors specifically, the ratings are quite conservative. Winding insulation is usually good to about 70C. Since they're wrapped around a big hunk of soft iron, acting as a heat sink, they can withstand a lot more than you'd expect. In practice, it's very hard to cook a larger (>7lb) hub motor. Even then, there are ways of improving heat transfer from the stator to the outside, such as venting the side covers or filling the hub with a light heat transfer oil.

    Most geared hub motors use either all nylon gears, or one steel gear and two nylon gears, in order to reduce noise. They can often be replaced with all steel gears to better withstand the sort of torque you can get out of them with over-volting and high-current controllers.

    Direct-drive hubs, on the other hand, have no gears to strip. Your torque is only limited by the strength of the wheel build, the hub's axle, or the bike's dropouts, whichever fails first.

  10. #85
    Paper or plastic?
    Reputation: zorg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    7,836
    Quote Originally Posted by cmdrpiffle View Post
    Zorg, Mission Peak frowns at your comments...You'll be skidding the uphill turn from the Grass Forest onto the fire road as you make your way to the port O potty at the junction to the Stanford Rd. trail. Electricity is overrated.
    Cheers!
    Strava KOM for me!
    Faster is not always better, but it's always more fun

  11. #86
    > /dev/null 2&>1
    Reputation: Procter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,434

    Re: Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    For the guys saying the power gain isn't going to hurt the trails... I think you're missing the point.

    Go to Northstar and ride boondocks. Then, a about a mile from there by the crow, ride TRT single-track around martis peak, down around Watson lake into Tahoe City. Both trail systems have been through the same precipitation, but the Watson area single track was probably open weeks earlier than Northstar, which opened Jun 6. Despite that, the difference in the current condition of the two trails is enormous. Boondocks is a moondust mess, while the trails outside the park are still in great shape, well packed and firm by comparison.

    Is this because the Northstar crowd skids more (per mile of ride)? Maybe a little, but the main cause of the crappy condition of boondocks is that it gets MUCH more traffic. A lot of this traffic is lift only riders who rarely, if ever, ride outside a park and actually climb something. The lifts bring many riders to the trails who would not be there if they had to climb to the top of zephyr.

    This is what ebikes will do. Today, having to pedal naturally limits the number of riders who hit the trails and the distance a typical rider covers in a day. Even if ebikes caused the exact same damage per mile as regular bikes, the trails will still be significantly degraded, because, more riders (who do not ride today) will be hitting them, and the average rider will ride longer. For all intents and purposes trails are a finite, limited resource and we (mountain bikers) should generally limit traffic on trails and protect them.

    I'm sorry to those who are disabled who cannot ride any other way, but, if we limit ebikes to disabled riders there is no way to effectively police it. People abuse these systems all the time, bringing their 'service' chihuahuas into restaurants and parking in disabled parking spots, outside their gym, to go inside and hit the elliptical.

    I have shoulder problems, I can't get go surfing because I can't get out past the breakers. Do I demand they put up a wave-break outside the breaker zone to calm the waves? No. I live with it and find sports I can do.

  12. #87
    Axe
    Axe is offline
    Custom User Title
    Reputation: Axe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,494

    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by RaythePedaler View Post
    It's not smug, it's care. I don't want to see a semi-disabled guy die in a trail or be stuck there overnight because he's incapable of pedaling his heavy toy out of a trail he couldn't ride on a normal bike.

    We all have limits, respecting them is how we stay alive.
    You are assuming disabled do not know what they are doing. You are wrong.

    I am also glad that ADA laws are there to protect those whom you think just should die quietly in the safe confines of their homes.

  13. #88
    Axe
    Axe is offline
    Custom User Title
    Reputation: Axe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,494

    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by ddprocter View Post
    For the guys saying the power gain isn't going to hurt the trails... I think you're missing the point.

    Go to Northstar and ride boondocks. Then, a about a mile from there by the crow, ride TRT single-track around martis peak, down around Watson lake into Tahoe City. Both trail systems have been through the same precipitation, but the Watson are single track was probably open weeks earlier than Northstar, which opened Jun 6. Despite that, the difference in the current condition of the two trails is enormous. Boondocks is a moondust mess, while the trails outside the park are still in great shape, well packed and firm by comparison.

    Is this because the Northstar crowd skids more (per mile of ride)? Maybe a little, but the main cause of the crappy condition of boondocks is that it gets MUCH more traffic. A lot of this traffic is lift only riders who rarely, if ever, ride outside a park and actually climb something. The lifts bring many riders to the trails who would not be there if they had to climb to the top of zephyr.

    This is what ebikes will do. Today, having to pedal naturally limits the number of riders who hit the trails and the distance a typical rider covers in a day. Even if ebikes caused the exact same damage per mile as regular bikes, the trails will still be significantly degraded, because, more riders (who do not ride today) will be hitting them, and the average rider will ride longer. For all intents and purposes trails are a finite, limited resource and we (mountain bikers) should generally limit traffic on trails and protect them.

    I'm sorry to those who are disabled who cannot ride any other way, but, if we limit ebikes to disabled riders there is no way to effectively police it. People abuse these systems all the time, bringing their 'service' chihuahuas into restaurants and parking in disabled parking spots, outside their gym, to go inside and hit the elliptical.

    I have shoulder problems, I can't get go surfing because I can't get out past the breakers. Do I demand they put up a wave-break outside the breaker zone to calm the waves? No. I live with it and find sports I can do.
    The solution is obvious, build more trails.

  14. #89
    mtbr member
    Reputation: AllMountin''s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    392

    Re: Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    You are assuming disabled do not know what they are doing. You are wrong.

    I am also glad that ADA laws are there to protect those whom you think just should die quietly in the safe confines of their homes.
    He never said that, and you don't address the issue.

    Proponents tout the ability to go further than you could unassisted and to allow those who otherwise couldn't get out into the back country to do so. When, not if, your drive fails, how do you get out? If you are out farther than you can pedal manually, do you call in a search party?

    If you truly need pedal assist to get out there, then you need it to get back. Self reliance is critical in mountain biking.

    When I get old and my body starts to fail me, I may not be able to bike. **** happens, and I'll adjust my lifestyle accordingly. There are a LOT of things most old folks can't do. There are things people with specific disabilities can't do(and lots they can). People love to play PC police and pretend otherwise, but it's still true.

    Buy a real moto and do your thing, if you need to ride. You can't expect motorized vehicles to be allowed on non moto trails. It's not a reasonable ask.

  15. #90
    swag ho Administrator
    Reputation: francois's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    18,223
    Quote Originally Posted by ddprocter View Post
    ...

    Even if ebikes caused the exact same damage per mile as regular bikes, the trails will still be significantly degraded, because, more riders (who do not ride today) will be hitting them, and the average rider will ride longer. For all intents and purposes trails are a finite, limited resource and we (mountain bikers) should generally limit traffic on trails and protect them.

    ...

    More people will be riding bikes and they will ride longer???

    You're making a great case for e-bikes.

    I'm not all for e-bikes on trails but your reasoning seems so selfish. Downieville, Winter Park, Toads, Cannell, MBO, Whistler are primarily shuttle rides and they have brought much joy to riders and to the towns around them.
    IPA will save America

  16. #91
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    789
    Quote Originally Posted by AllMountin' View Post
    He never said that, and you don't address the issue.

    Proponents tout the ability to go further than you could unassisted and to allow those who otherwise couldn't get out into the back country to do so. When, not if, your drive fails, how do you get out? If you are out farther than you can pedal manually, do you call in a search party?

    If you truly need pedal assist to get out there, then you need it to get back. Self reliance is critical in mountain biking.

    When I get old and my body starts to fail me, I may not be able to bike. **** happens, and I'll adjust my lifestyle accordingly. There are a LOT of things most old folks can't do. There are things people with specific disabilities can't do(and lots they can). People love to play PC police and pretend otherwise, but it's still true.

    Buy a real moto and do your thing, if you need to ride. You can't expect motorized vehicles to be allowed on non moto trails. It's not a reasonable ask.
    This^^^ is the point. I'm not exactly old (still under 50), but my left shoulder is held together with titanium and only has about 65% mobility these days, thus I gave up whitewater kayaking since I couldn't do a combat roll. Both of my big toe joints are shot and in need of replacement or fusing, thus I had to give up all but the most mellow backpacking, climbing, caving, and mountaineering because I can't walk that far. My right hip is titanium and my left soon will be, thus I'm forced to curtail some of my more demanding ski mountaineering and steep skiing/boarding because my joints can't handle the torque and impacts of drops and technical lines. It sucks, and it means that I can no longer access some of the places that are dearest to my heart, but it's also life. I suppose to some of you believe that I should be allowed to use any and all motorized methods to reach these places no matter where they are: Wilderness, Wild and Scenic Rivers, mountain peaks, remote caves, etc. I shouldn't and I don't expect to be able to, and that's the way it should be. If it's not, we might as well pave every single trail anywhere so that it's flat enough to be ADA compliant...

  17. #92
    > /dev/null 2&>1
    Reputation: Procter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,434

    Re: Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    More people will be riding bikes and they will ride longer???

    You're making a great case for e-bikes.

    I'm not all for e-bikes on trails but your reasoning seems so selfish. Downieville, Winter Park, Toads, Cannell, MBO, Whistler are primarily shuttle rides and they have brought much joy to riders and to the towns around them.

    I hear what you're saying FC, but, I think folks on both extremes are being equally selfish. Yes, to be fair, I am saying I want to protect /limit trail access so I can enjoy them more. But the pro ebike folks are doing the same, by saying "I want access to these trails even if it means they will be overall degraded and lower quality for everyone." Neither side is being purely altruistic here.

    When you combine the trail degradation argument, with argument that ebikes may cause us to lose trail access (which is the other 50% of the debate for me) , I think the debate tips towards the fact that banning ebikes from non motorized trails is the greater good.

    Ebikers can go to N*, mammoth, Rubicon and other OHV trails across the Sierra, Hollister, and many other places already. Why do they need more, especially if it means potentially getting trails shut down and significant degrading them?

  18. #93
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Joe_510's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    42
    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    IMO, more bikes the better. I don't think banning them will do any good.
    I don't necessarily think this is the right mindset anymore. Mountain bikers aren't a tiny percentage of park users any more. Or an obscure subculture. I kind of wish LESS people rode sometimes... More bikes = more blown out trails from idiots that don't know how to ride, as has been expressed by others in the thread. In regards to your other comment about 'somebody else is getting p***y but me', I got my p***y that day and did 20 miles and 2200 ft, so no, that's not the case at all.
    East Bay Parks AKA East Bay Cattle Ranches

  19. #94
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,182
    Again, what is the real intention of refusing motorized access? What qualities do they express that make them a problem? How does that relate to ebikes.

    Allmountain makes a comment that has traction with me:

    "Buy a real moto and do your thing, if you need to ride. You can't expect motorized vehicles to be allowed on non moto trails. It's not a reasonable ask."
    I don't rattle.

  20. #95
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    3,125

    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    If these stupid things become popular, it could cause trail access issues for all bikes. I can't believe how lazy people are; no wonder the USA is fattest country in the world.

  21. #96
    > /dev/null 2&>1
    Reputation: Procter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,434

    Re: Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Again, what is the real intention of refusing motorized access? What qualities do they express that make them a problem? How does that relate to ebikes.
    Hey B-mike ,

    Again, ebikes on non motorized trails present two problems

    A ) Gives ammunition to the anti bike crowd, helping them get all bikes banned, using all predictable arguments, such as blurring the boundary between motorized and non motorized bikes and convincing trail managers that full motorized access is the mountain biking community's long term goal. Imagine the Mike V's of the world video of one of these things shooting around JMP and what damage that could do to long term access battles.

    B ) Dramatically increases the rate of trail degradation due to bringing many more riders to trails (more than would ride if unassisted climbing was required) and increasing the miles ridden by existing riders. besides making for crappy trails this also gives further ammunition to the anti bike crowd in case A )

  22. #97
    Axe
    Axe is offline
    Custom User Title
    Reputation: Axe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,494

    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by ddprocter View Post
    .

    When you combine the trail degradation argument...
    significant degrading them?
    You keep repeating this assumption, but it is about as proven as bikes endangering snakes. As in not at all.

    All your arguments equally apply to regular bicycles. More people, trails. Should we all just sit home so that dirt it not disturbed?

  23. #98
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,182
    Quote Originally Posted by ddprocter View Post
    Hey B-mike ,

    Again, ebikes on non motorized trails present two problems

    A ) Gives ammunition to the anti bike crowd, helping them get all bikes banned, using all predictable arguments, such as blurring the boundary between motorized and non motorized bikes and convincing trail managers that full motorized access is the mountain biking community's long term goal. Imagine the Mike V's of the world video of one of these things shooting around JMP and what damage that could do to long term access battles.

    B ) Dramatically increases the rate of trail degradation due to bringing many more riders to trails (more than would ride if unassisted climbing was required) and increasing the miles ridden by existing riders. besides making for crappy trails this also gives further ammunition to the anti bike crowd in case A )
    That is not quite where I wanted to go; what-ifs or how it can work against us going forward. I want to go back further to the basis, for the real intention, of refusing throttled/motorized access? What qualities do they express that make them a problem? How does that relate to ebikes.
    I don't rattle.

  24. #99
    > /dev/null 2&>1
    Reputation: Procter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,434

    Re: Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    You keep repeating this assumption, but it is about as proven as bikes endangering snakes. As in not at all.

    Again I'll state this is a secondary part of my argument. But to me the proof is there: I think the comparison of lift served trails, which become complete chum very early in the season, to non lift served trails, shows that additional traffic makes the trail degrade much faster.

    Should we all just sit home so that dirt it not disturbed?
    This is a straw man argument. The answer is no, we shouldn't sit home, but, we shouldn't make it any easier, it should require a certain amount of hard work to 'consume' trails. When the effort to consume something becomes cheaper or free, consumption (in this case trail degradation) goes much faster. Its econ 101.

  25. #100
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,182
    ddproctor, I think that the argument of increased numbers is weak, especially absent any factual data about the frequency of use of the two condition you present. Unless, of course, you simply want to say that the more the trails are used the more they degrade. In which case that works against us in terms of our future access to trips thus far denied to us.

    Or if you are talking about "earning your downhills", well, we've been there before and that gets us nowhere. For my part, I love the climb and simply riding up the hill doesn't have much meaning for me. So I guess I "earn" my climbs but so what. Not everyone has to ride that way.

    No, I think that this discussion has yet to hit on a fundamental understanding of this issue. As far as I can see most of the resistance boils down to just not liking the idea of power-assisted riding and coming up with reasons afterwards, reason to keep them off of "our" trails. And that, my friends, is exactly what the hikers and equestrians have been doing to us for years.
    I don't rattle.

Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Bike Thief last spotted in Marin...
    By CHUM in forum California - Norcal
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 10-31-2013, 03:23 PM
  2. Replies: 21
    Last Post: 09-26-2013, 06:16 PM
  3. New Lift-Assisted Mountain Bike Park, Asheville, NC
    By 26West BikePark in forum Southeast - GA, TN, AL, FL
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 05-24-2012, 01:09 PM
  4. Stolen bike spotted..please help me recover 9k!
    By eragirl in forum Colorado - Front Range
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-28-2012, 08:29 PM
  5. Forte Campus Pedal Thoughts?
    By DrewQ1 in forum Beginner's Corner
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-27-2011, 03:02 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •