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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truckeemtb View Post
    OK, I have an ebike. I am 41 and used to ride road and mtn bikes 15-20 hours or so a week. 4-10 hour mtn bike rides were my favorite. I used to have 9 bikes (my wife and I) road, mtn, single speed and snow. I took one dose of an antibiotic and it ruined both my Achilles tendons and caused an insane amount of pain and suffering. It has ruined my life. My whole life was around sports, mtn biking, dirt biking, kite surfing, skiing etc. My only savior in this has been being able to get out on an ebike. Would I rather be using 100% of my own power. Hell yeah. Is this the only way I can get out right now, yes. An ebike may of saved my life. The fact is you can't tell it is an ebike, it's quieter than my Chris King hubs and they are regulated by max wattage in the US and max top speeds of 20 mpg. On a bike trail from Tahoe City to Squaw I used to be able to ride at 20-30 mpg so I was actually going much FASTER when I could pedal. The bike weighs double my Ripley that I had to sell and has a limited range, no epic rides.

    I don't know where I stand on this issue but for somebody in my situation it's a savior and gives me something that I used to have but don't for now. I probably would of been against them until I found myself in this horrible situation as I can barely walk. They sell almost 200 million of them worldwide, most in China. It can work. It's easy to be against something unless it's your only option. If people commuted on them it could help save the world. 10 cents for 45 miles vs cars clogging the road and polluting. I don't know how it's going to shake out but for now it's game on for me...

    So is it okay because Truckeemtb has cred?
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  2. #152
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    Limitations on motorized trail use was written into the fabric of many trail use management decisions long ago... first with the Wilderness Act of 1964 (where semantics played the primary role in banning bicycles ~20 years later), followed by President LBJ's speech in 1965, where he stated, "The forgotten outdoorsmen of today are those who like to walk, hike, ride horseback or bicycle. For them we must have trails as well as highways. Nor should motor vehicles be permitted to tyrannize the more leisurely human traffic."

    This speech lead to a 1966 Nationwide Trail Study (Trails for America) which resulted in the 1968 National Trails Act.... and motorized-free trails. While Congress and the Trails Act did accommodate motorized (OHV) use, the origins of non-motorized trails and Wilderness did not come from anything discussed in this thread... it came from giving people a place to get away from the sights and sounds of an increasingly motorized world... and all of the above has collectively caused no shortage of access issues for motorized enthusiasts (and MTB) since!

    From my seat, and I'm not a dirt biker, it has only gotten worse for the OHV crowd as they have been banned from many places (trails) they historically used, mostly under the flag of environmental issues, and they continue to fight for their right to enjoy public places. Meanwhile, MTB is seeing unprecedented access growth (in the form of building new trails around the country). Maybe not in the Bay Area or the foothills right now, but it's happening in many places and will happen in NorCal someday.

    As you know, mountain biking has worked hard for 30 years to be recognized as a legit human powered use of public trails. As electric bikes become more popular, the "non-motorized" card will be used more and more by pedestrians, equestrians and mt bikers to ban e-bikes from trails simply because they are motorized. If/when e-bikes become a management problem, I think there is a reasonable chance mountain biking could suffer a significant setback, as a simple solution from a land manager's standpoint is to make currently multi-use trails "wheel free"... or simply turning areas into MTB/e-bike/MX parks... as in the OHV parks that CA State Parks manages. Isn't it easier to boot all classes of bicycles off than to figure out which one is appropriate and which one is not?

    There are a lot (multi-millions?) of non-cycling trail users who would love to not deal with bicycles on trails. I think e-bikes could end up being their ticket for getting there, and they'll have mountain bikers to help them achieve that possible outcome, since many of us don't want 'em on "our trails".

    I personally have no issue with a responsibly ridden e-bike, but as I stated before in this thread, since they are motorized, and given the history, legislation and management of motorized trail use, we could all get lumped into a management decision that is unfavorable for us. I hope not, and I'd rather get this thing figured out sooner than later, when the ebikes are more prevalent.

  3. #153
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauldotcom View Post
    It IS a motorcycle and IT IS stupid. There are ZERO good things that can come out of this. If you want a motorized rush, buy a dirt bike or go to Six Flags. If not, earn your turn.
    Yes, and let's ban downhill mountain resorts too.

    No, it is not a motorcycle. It is barely heavier than a regular bike (let's ban fat people from riding, too much trail erosion). It is silent, and the is no motorized rush. It just lets you get uphill faster. So that you do not ride in a pickup truck on private property like so many people do near SC.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    BM-

    Limitations on motorized trail use was written into the fabric of many trail use management decisions long ago... first with the Wilderness Act of 1964 (where semantics played the primary role in banning bicycles ~20 years later), followed by President LBJ's speech in 1965, where he stated, "The forgotten outdoorsmen of today are those who like to walk, hike, ride horseback or bicycle. For them we must have trails as well as highways. Nor should motor vehicles be permitted to tyrannize the more leisurely human traffic."

    This speech lead to a 1966 Nationwide Trail Study (Trails for America) which resulted in the 1968 National Trails Act.... and motorized-free trails. While Congress and the Trails Act did accommodate motorized (OHV) use, the origins of non-motorized trails and Wilderness did not come from anything discussed in this thread... it came from giving people a place to get away from the sights and sounds of an increasingly motorized world... and all of the above has collectively caused no shortage of access issues for motorized enthusiasts (and MTB) since!
    Thank you for this information. It puts a complexion on the issue independent of the other issues people are bringing up. If this is the foundation, and I am not sure there aren't other principles involved, the ebike can be understood in those terms, not mtb terms.
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  5. #155
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    This thread has gone fractal...

    I don't think the able-bodied should be using e-bikes purely for recreation in mixed use areas; but somewhere the line is blurred between recreation and transportation. Those two e-bikes allowed into Coe for a permitted event fell more into the category of transportation than recreation. They were being used by a father/son team to visit Coe's lakes/ponds for the purpose of fishing. Sure they had fun getting there (and they pedaled plenty too) but why should something be penalized for the "fun factor"?

    Here are those bikes:


    I'm not sure exactly what the ratings were; the white bike is advertised as 250w with a 500w option. They were both pretty quiet even though they had geared motors; as was mentioned previously they were no noisier than a loud freewheel.

    The other side of the coin (ADA access) needs to be considered in light of this:
    http://www.ada.gov/opdmd.pdf

    (The Segway crowd had much to do with this)

    Basically; if pedestrian traffic is allowed in a public area; so too must be OPMDs.

    Get used to it...
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  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    So is it okay because Truckeemtb has cred?
    I got criticism for this comment. To clarify, it has less to do with Truckeemtb than it does with a prevailing sense that one must earn access. Truckeemtb, bless him for still getting out there, exposes that argument clearly.
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  7. #157
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    The only problem with most of the arguments on here is that they are NOT classified as motorized vehicles so they are not illegal and can be ridden anywhere a regular bike can be ridden.

    "The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Act states that electric bicycles and tricycles meeting the definition of low-speed electric bicycles will be considered consumer products to be regulated by the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) [32] The Act provides that electric bikes are subject to the pre-existing rules for ordinary bicycles, and that the CPSC can promulgate additional rules to protect people who ride electric bikes. They are not considered motor vehicles under U.S. DOT and NHTSA regulations."

  8. #158
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    Wow, duck, if this had been posted after the initial post things would have been so much better. Great knowledge.

    The discussion did reveal a lot of biases, attitudes, assumptions, though. And those things have a lot of power.
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  9. #159
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    In regards to Berkeley Mikes question about the root of the issue, I'm sticking to the slippery slope argument. As it stands, I suppose I don't have any real issue with low-wattage e-bikes. I will admit, I'll look down my nose at someone who uses one out of pure laziness, but that doesn't effect my views about their right to be out here. The stories of people having a legitimate need for them make it a really tough issue though. I more fear the doors that they will most certainly open, and the dialogue they will bring to the table. I don't want more people lobbying for access for motorized users. I don't think it needs to be pointed out how destructive motorized vehicles are off-road, and the dangers they could bring to a multi-use environment.

    As the technology advances it's going to be harder and harder to tell these things apart from normal bikes. I'm sure they will be tinkered with and modded by enthusiasts. With products like the Stealth bikes linked earlier in the thread - which could clearly tear up a trail, or seriously injure someone far worse than a normal bike due to their speed and weight, I think we need to draw a line in the sand now, or else people with these things will be saying, "What? It's just an e-bike!" as they fly past us at 40MPH.

    I would certainly be open to lower-wattage e-bikes for users with a legitimate need being allowed in area where motorized traffic is usually prohibited, but who is going to regulate that? Ain't nobody go time for that!
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  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duck Fan View Post
    "The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Act states that electric bicycles and tricycles meeting the definition of low-speed electric bicycles will be considered consumer products to be regulated by the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) [32] The Act provides that electric bikes are subject to the pre-existing rules for ordinary bicycles, and that the CPSC can promulgate additional rules to protect people who ride electric bikes. They are not considered motor vehicles under U.S. DOT and NHTSA regulations."
    So what exactly is the definition of a "low-speed electric bicycle" though? And how can one easily spot the difference visually?
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  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    So what exactly is the definition of a "low-speed electric bicycle" though? And how can one easily spot the difference visually?

    An e-bike is:
    - motor can only kick in when rider is pedaling
    - motor assist will shut off at 20 mph
    - motor cannot be more than 750 watts (most athletes can sustain 250 watts).
    - not more than 100 lbs.

    That is current guideline and laws are being tested and developed for road use. It'll hash out there for road commuting. The leaders are in Europe where e-bikes are widely used. Some countries like Holland have up to 80% of the population using bikes regularly. Biking is not for the few but par of everyday life for everyone.

    So for the US on the trail, it's gonna be a long time til this plays out and gets settled. It'll play out first on the road. But the key with the definition above is it is not a motorized vehicle. But electric bikes do exist that are really motorcycles.

    More definitions:
    Electric bicycle laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Currently, e-bikes add 20 lbs to a bike (for the high-end) and they're good for about an hour of climbing use. In about 5 years, they'll add about 10 lbs.

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  12. #162
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    U.S. Code › Title 15 › Chapter 47 › § 2085
    15 U.S. Code § 2085 - Low-speed electric bicycles


    Current through Pub. L. 113-108. (See Public Laws for the current Congress.)
    (a) Construction
    Notwithstanding any other provision of law, low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products within the meaning of section 2052 (a)(1) [1] of this title and shall be subject to the Commission regulations published at section 1500.18(a)(12) andpart 1512 of title 16, Code of Federal Regulations.
    (b) Definition
    For the purpose of this section, the term “low-speed electric bicycle” means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.

  13. #163
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duck Fan View Post
    The only problem with most of the arguments on here is that they are NOT classified as motorized vehicles so they are not illegal and can be ridden anywhere a regular bike can be ridden.

    "The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Act states that electric bicycles and tricycles meeting the definition of low-speed electric bicycles will be considered consumer products to be regulated by the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) [32] The Act provides that electric bikes are subject to the pre-existing rules for ordinary bicycles, and that the CPSC can promulgate additional rules to protect people who ride electric bikes. They are not considered motor vehicles under U.S. DOT and NHTSA regulations."
    They are in California.

    https://www.dmv.ca.gov/motorcycles/motorcycles.htm
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  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duck Fan View Post
    The only problem with most of the arguments on here is that they are NOT classified as motorized vehicles so they are not illegal and can be ridden anywhere a regular bike can be ridden.

    "The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Act states that electric bicycles and tricycles meeting the definition of low-speed electric bicycles will be considered consumer products to be regulated by the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) [32] The Act provides that electric bikes are subject to the pre-existing rules for ordinary bicycles, and that the CPSC can promulgate additional rules to protect people who ride electric bikes. They are not considered motor vehicles under U.S. DOT and NHTSA regulations."
    The context of the regulation(s) needs to be understood.

    The DOT/NHTSA/CPSC definitions have to do with which agency deals with e-bikes (product recalls, safety standards & etc); not where they can be operated.

    The only e-bikes with the "get out of jail free card" are the ones operated by the legitimately handicapped. And those power restrictions may not be applicable this case (except in Federal Wilderness Areas).

    Also; while the LEO may not ask about the nature of a persons disability the may still ask for proof of disability (such as a parking placard).
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  15. #165
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    DOT / NHSTA regs have nothing to do with natural surface trails...

    Most (all?) multi-use trails (hike/bike/horse) are explicitly non-motorized. e-bikes have motors, plain and simple, and therefore are *currently* not permitted by default. Enforcement is another issue.

    FWIW, this will be a hot-topic at the upcoming IMBA World Summit in Steamboat Springs, CO, in August (followed by a reception with Bike Snob NYC and lots of cold beer).

    Come hear from the experts (industry and land managers)... e-bikes are here to stay — we're just at the beginning of "how to manage" phase.
    -
    .And following our will and wind . . .
    . . .We'll ride the spiral to the end
    and may just go where no one's been.

  16. #166
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    Part of the question here is where will the line be drawn in the trail access battles. As Empty_Beer notes above, we MTB'ers have been focused for years on the fact that bikes are non-motorized and seek to maintain and extend trail access to everywhere that non-motorized travel can be made. Opponents of MTB access seek to draw the line at non-mechanical travel (as in the Wilderness areas).

    The conclusion is inevitable: regardless of your opinion about e-Bikes, if they are considered the same as MTBers and should have the same access as MTBers then the opponents of MTB access will win more battles, and MTBers will have less trail access in disputed areas. The line will be drawn at non-mechanical travel. Keeping the focus on the fact that we don't have motors will allow us greater access to trails. It is that simple.

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truckeemtb View Post
    OK, I have an ebike. I am 41 and used to ride road and mtn bikes 15-20 hours or so a week. 4-10 hour mtn bike rides were my favorite. I used to have 9 bikes (my wife and I) road, mtn, single speed and snow. I took one dose of an antibiotic and it ruined both my Achilles tendons and caused an insane amount of pain and suffering. It has ruined my life. My whole life was around sports, mtn biking, dirt biking, kite surfing, skiing etc. My only savior in this has been being able to get out on an ebike. Would I rather be using 100% of my own power. Hell yeah. Is this the only way I can get out right now, yes. An ebike may of saved my life. The fact is you can't tell it is an ebike, it's quieter than my Chris King hubs and they are regulated by max wattage in the US and max top speeds of 20 mpg. On a bike trail from Tahoe City to Squaw I used to be able to ride at 20-30 mpg so I was actually going much FASTER when I could pedal. The bike weighs double my Ripley that I had to sell and has a limited range, no epic rides.

    I don't know where I stand on this issue but for somebody in my situation it's a savior and gives me something that I used to have but don't for now. I probably would of been against them until I found myself in this horrible situation as I can barely walk. They sell almost 200 million of them worldwide, most in China. It can work. It's easy to be against something unless it's your only option. If people commuted on them it could help save the world. 10 cents for 45 miles vs cars clogging the road and polluting. I don't know how it's going to shake out but for now it's game on for me...

    I used to run wilderness trails
    I used to bike single track trails

    Now I can't do either. Just because I was able to enjoy both, no law can be applied to me banning me from doing both. I will use motorize propulsion to get me to those places, widen the trails to accommodate my motorize vehicles.

    Try swimming, walking, spinning, yoga, weightlifting, pushups, pullups, palatis, etc....

    Know your limits and consider everyones elses rights

  18. #168
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    I used to bag peaks, but now I want an escalator installed to help me.

  19. #169
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    Re: Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    I used to bag peaks, but now I want an escalator installed to help me.
    You could ride a segway up to the top!
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  20. #170
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by dgw2jr View Post
    You could ride a segway up to the top!
    Not above class 2.

  21. #171
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    Ebikes are a new market and will be more mainstream than mountain bikes. People, investors and suppliers, who get in early look to make a lot of money. Ebikes will sponsor MTBR. Why do you think that Francois is so well informed; someone has been selling him on this. I have heard all of this info from front line ebike sales promos for the last 18 months.

    Riders who go from Mtb to gas-powered 2-wheeled experience will transition well. Those with less related experience will find themselves managing all the usual learning-curve events that unskilled mountain bikers encounter, such as injury, but with the added factor of the more remote locations that power-assist will make possible. In addition, their culture clash with other trail users will add more stress to an already challenging situation.

    I expect that our gas powered dirt brethren could tell us much about this; no need to reinvent the wheel.

    That's my call.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 06-21-2014 at 08:45 PM.
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  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Ebikes are a new market and will be more mainstream than mountain bikes. People, investors and suppliers, who get in early look to make a lot of money. Ebikes will sponsor MTBR. Why do you think that Francois is so well informed; someone has been selling him on this. I have heard all of this info from front line ebike sales promos for the last 18 months....

    That's my call.
    Hey man, leave me out of it. Sponsorship for Mtbr will be miniscule.

    I'm well informed since I try not to presume too much, just a little. Also, it is a real movement in road commuting. For mountain bike, it will be very niche for the next 5 years.

    I did make it to Eurobike last year though and their E-bike options are massive. Biking there is more part of the culture.

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    Yeah, there have been issues around where these ebikes should be allowed to ride. Some feel they do not belong on paths or sharrows but out on the road with cars and motorcycles.

    But they are coming, just as Red Bull did in 2002; a money maker, challenging extant values, not to be denied. This is why it is important to be clear on how they are embraced by regulation, not mtb opinion.
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  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Yeah, there have been issues around where these ebikes should be allowed to ride. Some feel they do not belong on paths or sharrows but out on the road with cars and motorcycles.
    I have no issues with them on paved bike paths, and wouldn't bat en eye sharing the path or road with one. My issue is specifically areas where motorized traffic is banned.
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    I picked up a used eBike to see how much power is needed. I knew the first purchase would be a learning lesson, go for a cheap lesson.

    EVC 500W eBike
    Lead acid batteries
    Basically the Model T of ebikes.
    Fun to ride up hills. Would get beaten to death on any trail.
    Once the battery is deal, it is like a sled with flat tires.

    Not my bike, but mine looks like it.
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  26. #176
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    The DMV limits ebikes to 1000w. Then they are motor driven cycles.

    On the trails, if it looks like a mtn bike with a thermos and a drum brake, it probably is OK. If it looks like a motorcycle, it probably should be ridden where motorcycles are allowed.

    LOWEST LIFE FORM RULE: We have some people with no self control or sense of fair play. If you want to cater the the lowest life form rule, then banning ebikes and 8" suspension bikes from many multi use trails would make sense.

    Too bad people who are stealthy and responsible will get caught in the crossfire.

    The ideal spot for e-assist is from Terra Linda to the 680 trail, which is a steep climb.

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    It's saddening to say, but within my experience and understanding as an advocate and trail builder I cannot see ebikes being net positive as far as future access goes.
    If anything I could see this being helpful to the motorized group as a way of minimizing their impact to trails (particularly backcountry). Minimizing as far as tread inpact, noise, emissions... But I cannot see people who ride motorcycles rushing towards what would be effectively a backwards move in performance in their ride experience.
    But I digress. The old addage "earn your turns" aside, the fact remains that if ebikes gain popularity and are lumped within our user group it will provide more of a burdensome challenge than a boon. We for years had been lumped together in planning by the forest service alongside moto's, and only recently have had separation. So this does nothing but blur this delineation. And if you are unaware of the struggles of the motorized user-group just spend a moment wading thru one of their forums to get a taste, concerning their shrinking access over the years.
    .~...|\
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  28. #178
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    I have:
    street motorcycles
    dirt motorcycles
    mtn bikes
    electric zappy scooter
    and now... ebike

    I pretty much know the right tool for the job, where things do and don't belong.

    I bought the electric bike mainly due to my son most likely never being able to drive. (Long story) I want to extend his range.

    My friend is raising his son riding an Oset electric trials bike. They have bicycles for multi use paths.

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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevXR View Post
    I picked up a used eBike to see how much power is needed. I knew the first purchase would be a learning lesson, go for a cheap lesson.

    EVC 500W eBike
    Lead acid batteries
    Basically the Model T of ebikes.
    Fun to ride up hills. Would get beaten to death on any trail.
    Once the battery is deal, it is like a sled with flat tires.

    Not my bike, but mine looks like it.
    Name:  ev global.jpg
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    Cool moped!

  30. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Cool moped!
    Cool e-moped.
    These bikes are like crack if you're not ultra fit and aren't the KOM type.

    I need to make a repair, but if you're in the San Rafael area, PM me for a test ride. This really is Model T level.

    (Evil thought, wouldn't it be fun to take an ebike and bust a few KOM records. Not for bragging rights, to get people to calm the F down. Not run over people or get killed.)

  31. #181
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    >Evil thought, wouldn't it be fun to take an ebike and bust a few KOM records

    You don't even need to buy an e-bike, there is software to speed you up.

    See: DigitalEPO.com

  32. #182
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Some dbag came up behind me on an ebike while I was riding uphill at paradise Royale. Damn near running me over as I fell to the side trying to save my keester. He did the same thing to my two other buds I was riding with. My opinion of the things are pretty set after that experience. I don't care what the power rating is... It had a motor it doesn't belong on "non-motorized" trails period. I'm not against motorized recreation, I have ridden dirt bikes my whole life and I race an off-road buggy. IMO these will do nothing good for existing multi-use/Mtb only trails. Nothing.
    I hope you have a big trunk... cause I'm gonna put my bike in it!

  33. #183
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    We can't all take the blame for a few dbag mtb'ers, why should ebikes as a whole get a bad rep from this incident?
    I don't rattle.

  34. #184
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Because the reality is the few always ruin it for the many regardless of what the topic is.
    I hope you have a big trunk... cause I'm gonna put my bike in it!

  35. #185
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    loving this thread

    I am loving this thread. Given my injury I can't yet ride the ebike on the bike on the dirt. Having ridden mtn bikes, road bikes and dirt bikes for 25 years I am pretty skeptical that this crop of ebikes can do much on a serious trail like I used to ride. The 50 weight alone with pretty poor suspension makes it tough to think it could even handle most trails around here.

    On a side note don't take Levaquain or Cipro, I could ride 5 hours one day and not walk the next... from one dose. The pain is so absurd it makes the tonsillectomy I got for my 40th look like childs play.

    I hope to get back on a real bike as soon as I can, but for now the ebike is keeping me alive. I really want a 140 fs that weighs 25 lbs but this works for now.

    My bike is is an Emotion 650 Neo, the components are a total joke for $4k at 350 watts I don't think it will go up a dirt hill without a heafty amount of pedaling. After nine months of hell I can do a max of 20 min on a trainer about about 65 rpms and 65 watts. Even will full power on an ebike that's less wattage than a super fit rider can do on a bike that weighs half as much (or less).

    In principal I understand how they shouldn't be allowed on some trails. That being said I don't think trail damage or noise is the issue. I know a number of really good riders and racers that will put way more damage down on a trail than 99% of the population on an ebike can do.

    For now it's not a threat, as technology, weight and batteries get better it could become a problem. Nothing like a proper moto though. I have had 450's, 250's, 400's, 320's and now a 350 I can only look at. I never ride on mtn bike trails period. That being said I live in Tahoe where there are great legal moto trails.

    Anyway, keep the positive and negative comments coming. I only ask that you think about what you would do if one day you could do a 5-10 hour ride and the next day your couldn't walk. I am pretty sure you would go with the only viable option, it's still a bike, it still takes pedaling and you get to get out and start getting your life back. I would give up everything save my wife to be healthy again. There is lots of dirt out there, once I would get off the beaten path I would rarely see another rider out there. On an all day ride up the south yuba 8 hours plus you would only see an rattle snake a few tics and that's about it. The bottom line is biking is my favorite thing in the world and I will do whatever I can just to taste it again.

  36. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by abeckstead View Post
    Some dbag came up behind me on an ebike while I was riding uphill at paradise Royale. Damn near running me over as I fell to the side trying to save my keester.
    I felt the same when hundred riders passed me at Boggs 8hr. They had no motors though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truckeemtb View Post
    I am pretty skeptical that this crop of ebikes can do much on a serious trail like I used to ride. The 50 weight alone with pretty poor suspension makes it tough to think it could even handle most trails around here.
    Ion 16 e-boxx, 30lb frame with e-drive.. But all this is first generation technology still.

    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?-01_11.jpg

  37. #187
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    G-bikes are already...

    ...a problem. (For trail access issues in regards to damaging trails) Everybody is riding a g-bike when heading downhill

    For sake of conversation a milk-toast 1000W output e-bike might be able to top out at 30 mph on a good day (proper gearing, flat road, etc, etc)

    Check out the kinetic energy of a bike/rider heading DH at 30 mph (only takes a 8% downgrade); a 170# rider on a 30# bike has right around 8.16 kJ of energy. Or about 6000 foot pounds force for you macho men who like to think in terms of ballistics; well over the energy of a .30-06.

    (Not to brag but being a bit on the heavy side I approach the energy of a .50 cal BMG when I hit 40 mph)

    Any wonder why braking bumps appear? Why skid kiddies are such a problem? (yeah just blame it on the dry conditions)

    I don't want to see them on trails either but the DMV-approved e-bikes won't be damaging the trails any more than a skid kiddie on a regular bike.

    Find a better reason to eliminate the e-bikes.

    Food for thought.
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  38. #188
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    The reality is batteries are still not that efficient. Even the latest.

    Ebikes with powerful motors:
    • Will have the duration of a Saturn V rocket Or
    • Will be weighed down with massive battery packs.


    You can't disguise them. It's like putting a V8 in a motorcycle. More power, but big bulky and thirsty.

    eBikes that go fast on the flats are not the same as ebikes that climb well. Don't get in a tizzy about a road bike that can hit 50 mph, which is the Holy Grail for road ebike MPH. Every newbie wants to hit 50 mph. Experienced builders explain reality. Lots of batteries and money to go 50. About 10 million posts on ebikes are here. Endless-sphere.com • Index page

    My e-moped has a 500w hub motor and can barely hit 18 mph on flat ground.

    This is the most efficient system and probably the future. A 250w motor is hooked into the drive train. Using the gears with the electric motor will help, but it won't be a 35 hp motocross motorcycle. CUBE REACTION HYBRID Pro 29

    Again, if it looks like a mtn bike with a thermos, it probably won't be roosting anyone or freaking out people. And it weighs 45 lbs, so if you like single tracks, an old Schwinn Beach Cruiser is light in comparison.


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  39. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post

    I don't want to see them on trails either but the DMV-approved e-bikes won't be damaging the trails any more than a skid kiddie on a regular bike.

    Find a better reason to eliminate the e-bikes.

    Food for thought.
    I think that the frank statement reveals something central to this thread.

    As to marketing...

    A friend of mine ran into a notable NorCal IMBA elder, one of their founders and a founder of prominent local advocacy group, riding a pedal-assist bike on Tam. I had spoken with this same gentleman last year and he told me he was enjoying the road as it was easier on him.

    Road.

    I know, I know. I have umpteen thousand road miles and dozens of Centuries under my belt. But road? Not my favorite choice. I just turned my carbon road bike into a city attack vehicle, like a 19 lb. rigid HT with slicks....

    The 30-40 year olds (I take a general age) who started the advocacy movement in 1986 are crowding 70 years of age. Many have been riding all these years. As age and its effects reveal themselves how many of these advocates for mountain bike access are just going to lay down their helmets and flat-out quit their forays into the hills? They have been struggling with hiker and horsey hater-type folks all these years.

    (FWIW at 62 I just gave up my classic steel ht for a full suss carbon wonder; aahh, mo' bettah'!)

    Who is going to tell them they can't ride the trails? What do you think the reaction might be.

    Francois suggests that bike mtb is 5 years down the road. For advocates 5 years is a blink.

    Just saying'...
    I don't rattle.

  40. #190
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    Speaking of Mt Tam. Local governments fear the ADA.
    If you're handicapped, as in wheelchair bound, anything goes.

    However, some people with illnesses, such as Barrs-Epstien or Lyme disease are considered handicapped. They look normal, but have little endurance.

  41. #191
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    If it has a motor. Its not for non-motorized trails.

    Its that simple.

    Until the ebike industry & user group perform the research, jury is out on impact.

    If you interface with land managers and they say no e-bikes or no bikes period, how do you push that discussion? Serious question.

    You'd be willing to give up access to keep ebikes in the mix? Its tough enough keeping us in the mix as it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post

    The only e-bikes with the "get out of jail free card" are the ones operated by the legitimately handicapped. And those power restrictions may not be applicable this case (except in Federal Wilderness Areas).

    Just like the only folks who can buy marijuana are those who need it for medicinal purposes?

    Dr, Dr, my arm hurts when I do this. I need a script for maryjane!

    Dr, Dr, I have lost my ability to ride uphill and into the scenic areas; I am disabled....
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 06-24-2014 at 02:12 PM.
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