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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Unless, of course, you simply want to say that the more the trails are used the more they degrade.
    This is exactly what I'm saying. I don't see how that works against us.

    And that, my friends, is exactly what the hikers and equestrians have been doing to us for years.
    Yes, and the early ebikers will say 'None of these 20KW ebikes!' and the 20KW ebikers will say 'No motos!' and the motos will say 'No storm trooper speeders!' until the trails are all freeway and one cannot go a quarter mile downhill without having to wait for a climber, and one cannot go anywhere near as fast downhill as they could before, knowing that someone may be coming up the climb at 15 MPH. Yes there are solutions to all these problems - DH only trails . . . more trails . . . but I don't think it'll be a fun process for a few years while this all gets sorted out.

    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, I think I've said everything I can here. I respect B-Mike's, Axe's and others opinion on this, I hope I'm wrong and we can all have nice dirt long after rain on relatively lightly trafficked trails with uninterrupted flowy downhill perfection.

    I'm out [mic drop]

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    This is a straw man argument. The answer is no, we shouldn't sit home, but, we shouldn't make it any easier.
    No, it was not a strawman argument. It was an analogy - regular bikes also do make it easier to go out and further. So do hiking boots. And horses - which everybody would agree are far more destructive than bikes.

    Any arguments of the type that restrictions should be only to the level so that the person making the argument is not affected are disingenuous.

    And why I can see the argument about regular motorbike noise and power somehow making trail experience worse for everybody else - even a tenuous argument at that - I can not see any clear evidence about silent, lower power electric assist bikes. I do not care about them because of cost, weight and hassle, but damn right I will use them once I can not pedal for a day anymore. There is no wholesale nature destruction and there is no annoyance to other trail users beyond their sense of righteousness.

  3. #103
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    No, it was not a strawman argument. It was an analogy - regular bikes also do make it easier to go out and further. So do hiking boots. And horses - which everybody would agree are far more destructive than bikes.

    Any arguments of the type that restrictions should be only to the level so that the person making the argument is not affected are disingenuous.

    And why I can see the argument about regular motorbike noise and power somehow making trail experience worse for everybody else - even a tenuous argument at that - I can not see any clear evidence about silent, lower power electric assist bikes. I do not care about them because of cost, weight and hassle, but damn right I will use them once I can not pedal for a day anymore. There is no wholesale nature destruction and there is no annoyance to other trail users beyond their sense of righteousness.
    You can ride an e-bike and I'll ride an electric dirt bike. http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/

    And we'll both be lazy and fat.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    There is no wholesale nature destruction and there is no annoyance to other trail users beyond their sense of righteousness.
    Since the degeneration in my hips will eventually keep me from swinging my legs over the top-tube of any bike, including an e-bike, I'll be demanding that I be allowed to run my e-ATV on all of the trails that I currently ride my bike on. As the only damage or irritant it'll produce is to other people's sense of righteousness, I'll expect your full support in my "right" right to ride anywhere, anytime I want on it and to modify the trails so that I can do so.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    ddproctor, I think that the argument of increased numbers is weak, especially absent any factual data about the frequency of use of the two condition you present. Unless, of course, you simply want to say that the more the trails are used the more they degrade. In which case that works against us in terms of our future access to trips thus far denied to us.

    Or if you are talking about "earning your downhills", well, we've been there before and that gets us nowhere. For my part, I love the climb and simply riding up the hill doesn't have much meaning for me. So I guess I "earn" my climbs but so what. Not everyone has to ride that way.

    No, I think that this discussion has yet to hit on a fundamental understanding of this issue. As far as I can see most of the resistance boils down to just not liking the idea of power-assisted riding and coming up with reasons afterwards, reason to keep them off of "our" trails. And that, my friends, is exactly what the hikers and equestrians have been doing to us for years.
    Spot on, Mike!!

    I think the anti-assist arguments are basically based in fear or aesthetics (electric assisted bikes offend me as a 'real' cyclist), with no actual data, or even real world anecdotes (which is not data, not even plural anecdotes). The other arguments fall into 'slippery slope' arguments. Well, if somebody has a 300W motor, the next guy will have a 600W motor, and the next guy (in an actual example given here) will have a 20 kilowatt motor! Dude, you just went from a few pounds of batteries and a light hub motor to the equivalent of a 700cc 26 horsepower gas motor. Tell me you just didn't slippery slope us to something completely unreasonable to strap to a bicycle just to add fear factor to your argument.

    I mean, really!!

    26 HP KAWASAKI LIQUID COOLED ENGINE FD731V-BS07

    And that pic floating around with the guy roosting up the dirt on the e-bike? Geez, people do that without the motor.

    And, what if the bike breaks down? How is that ANY different than any other bike break-down? ... broken chain, busted derailleurs, broken shock, taco'ed wheel, etc. We aren't talking about paraplegics suddenly going solo mountain biking in the most remote places here, having a breakdown and dying on the trail from exposure because of it... and HEY! LET'S BLAME THE BIKE!!! BAN THEM!!! I think we all know that it's a bad idea to go mountain biking solo somewhere very remote, with no means of calling for help, or where other passers-by won't see you.

    I mean, I know a guy who slipped a rear tire in a turn and ended up on the ground, breaking his hip. He couldn't move himself. If this happened out in the middle of nowhere, he would have been coyote food.

    See? That argument sounds like fear mongering rather than a real world problem that needs to be solved by laws and rules.

    All I'm saying is we need much better reasons to pass laws (or park rules) than 'it makes me feel icky-poo to see an electric assisted bike rider'.

  6. #106
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    Re: Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    I don't believe in allowing e-bikes on non-motorized trails for no other reason than I think it would open up the possibility of more powerful motorized bikes on the trails. Sure, it could start with a limit on power, but people are always trying to push their luck. Or just blatantly disobey the rules. As others stated, it'd be very difficult to enforce. How to most illegal trail users get busted? They get reported by other trail users. It's impossible to report someone for using an e-bike that's too powerful if you don't know it's too powerful.

    Also, how long would it be until some numbskull says to himself "hey, I saw a motor bike on this trail, I'm gonna bring my 125 tomorrow!" Don't overestimate people's intelligence, there really are people who think like that.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8iking VIIking View Post
    I don't believe in allowing e-bikes on non-motorized trails for no other reason than I think it would open up the possibility of more powerful motorized bikes on the trails. Sure, it could start with a limit on power, but people are always trying to push their luck. Or just blatantly disobey the rules. As others stated, it'd be very difficult to enforce. How to most illegal trail users get busted? They get reported by other trail users. It's impossible to report someone for using an e-bike that's too powerful if you don't know it's too powerful.

    Also, how long would it be until some numbskull says to himself "hey, I saw a motor bike on this trail, I'm gonna bring my 125 tomorrow!" Don't overestimate people's intelligence, there really are people who think like that.
    So, you're going with 'Slippery Slope'. Gotcha.

  8. #108
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    I think the ends of this argument are something like: On one hand making the trails accessible would increase support for them, however, folks who need motorized assistance may be less able to get themselves out of the woods if something breaks. On the other hand, if you allow e-bikes, what logic do you apply to the Whizzer rider to keep them off the trail? Whizzer motors are generally less expensive than E-bikes so if you try the "gas motors are too noisey/fast/impactive" argument you get the "don't keep me from the trail just because I'm mobility restricted and can't afford the more expensive alternative counter-argument.
    The most expensive bike in the world is still cheaper than the cheapest open heart surgery.

  9. #109
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    Re: Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    So, you're going with 'Slippery Slope'. Gotcha.
    More or less, yeah. I don't like the idea of jeopardizing our future trail use to please a small fringe group. Aren't there plenty of other off highway trails for them to use?

  10. #110
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    Some of these are the same arguments we advocates hear hikers and equestrians and non-recreationists throw at us... "More use, erosion creators, more illegal trails, concentrated use, idiots that aren't self-sufficient"... I think Mike is going that direction. Its valid.

    IMHO:

    E-bikes aren't human powered, they use electricity to drive a motor (doesn't matter if it assists or drives on its own, there IS a motor there powering the system). Its binary.

    Worst case scenario/eventuality:
    1. Someone with an ebike crashes into another trail user, injury results.
    2. The lawsuit goes against the deep pockets of the land manager.
    3. Damages awarded because technically the bike has an electric motor and was permitted or negligently permitted on those trails (i.e. land manager didn't follow their own enforcement of motorized restriction and associated risk mgmt plans).
    4. Damages carry cost and require mitigating risk of future occurrence.
    5. No clear way to regulate bikes and ebikes.
    6. Restrict/ban both as no way to ensure or mitigate "appropriate" judgement/enforcement of risk mitigants that protect from negligence/liability.

    Side Benefit to Land Manager: Decreased risk of future economic penalty & lower go forward operating costs due to lower usage driving down maintenance requirements, insurance premiums, and user conflict.

    Human powered is one of the big reasons we have a seat at the access table. Hikers, Equestrians, and Mt.Bikers all rely on sweat and pain to get us from point A to point B... on some level there is respect for each other's athletic prowess.

    Perception is reality. Unfortunately. [I'm focused on non-motorized/human powered only trails and systems].

    It's not a slippery slope, its an eventuality and that perception makes it a reality to MTB advocates and other human powered user groups that partner with or antagonize MTB advocates.

    So, its better to be clear and establish the position very clearly that Mt. Bikes are non-motorized and belong on non-motorized/human powered trails. Ebikes, since they have a motor do not have a place on said trails.

    I'm not against Ebikes organizing for their own advocacy. But the burden, like MTB has done before them, should be on them to develop the research, risk mitigation, trail design, volunteer time & $ donations that benefit other trail users. Otherwise, they risk losing access for not just themselves, but for all bikes, and that is untenable.

    From the advocacy trenches in NIMBY rich CT ~TF

  11. #111
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    The harder it is to discern between a human powered mountain bike and a motorized mountain bike, the closer we will all get lumped in with the MX'ers and their rules and regulations (much to the glee of anti-MTB activists) and I believe this will affect access for wheels on non-motorized trails. I hope I'm wrong.

  12. #112
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    "some level there is respect for each other's athletic prowess"

    Does this apply to the baby whales I've seen on horses?

    All kidding aside, human powered transport is the key here - if we start allowing powered bikes, then we might as well allow 4x4s.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    The harder it is to discern between a human powered mountain bike and a motorized mountain bike, the closer we will all get lumped in with the MX'ers and their rules and regulations (much to the glee of anti-MTB activists) and I believe this will affect access for wheels on non-motorized trails. I hope I'm wrong.
    Ooh, I think you've got the solution. Let E-Bikes ride anywhere MX'rs ride. They get access to trails and we don't have to deal with them. They're less damaging to trails than motorcycles.
    The most expensive bike in the world is still cheaper than the cheapest open heart surgery.

  14. #114
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by thefriar View Post
    E-bikes aren't human powered
    Neither are horses. Or mule trains in wilderness.

    Comparing assisted bikes to 4x4 is preposterous. They are not comparable in any way whatsoever. You can not tell an e- bike when it rides by you.

  15. #115
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    Assisted bikes (e.g. pedal and get moar powar added, max speed of XYZ) don't bother me much. Twist grip--yeah, they're just motorcycles.
    What's the diff? Engagement of the rider. I see this in the city, twist grip people pay as little attention as car drivers often and just kinda go because it's the least effort thing to do. (Vs. kinda like bicycles darting between cars because they don't want to stop--but in that case they're often hyper-attentive).
    Maybe I'm wrong here. But I see no reason to shut them out at first, but certainly enagement with the riders is useful.

    I also think there should be way more off road motorcycle areas near population centers!

  16. #116
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    I'm not in the US, but regardless, introducing more rules, conflict and competition for land space and recognition is never a solution. It just complicates things - and on and on it goes.

    What is pretty obvious around here is that when riders encounter other trail users, a happy exchange is likely. We know the trails are MTB specific. They don't have a clue, or care because they like being in the bush; no different to us really. Sometimes a walker, runner or dog will get in the way and it can be a pi$$er. No more though than a rider to rider encounter in rad terrain.

    I don't see e-bikes changing the primary rules of looking ahead and being able to control your vehicle at all times. No-one wants a collision with anything. Sometimes that is forgotten.

    My counsel would be to let it ride and see what happens. MTB has a pro-active history and has more clout than motorised transport on trails. It will probably be better in the long run to have the assisted bike brigade on side with MTB against the evils of equestrian and the sierra club style, perpetually morally outraged, green advocates who pose a greater threat to MTB and most of humanity than any gaggle of e-bikers.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    No, I think that this discussion has yet to hit on a fundamental understanding of this issue. As far as I can see most of the resistance boils down to just not liking the idea of power-assisted riding and coming up with reasons afterwards, reason to keep them off of "our" trails. And that, my friends, is exactly what the hikers and equestrians have been doing to us for years.
    I understand that some arguments we make against ebikes can sound a lot like the arguments made against us by anti-mtb folks. But the current arguments carefully crafted by mtb advocates to help land managers and the public understand that mountain bikers are not in fact, the devil's spawn, include:

    1) it is a human-powered activity
    2) it promotes a healthy lifestyle
    3) one can reference studies that demonstrate that the difference in the environmental impact of mountain biking vs. hiking is insignificant. https://www.imba.com/resources/resea...best-practices

    All of these above arguments no longer apply once we start lumping ourselves in the same category as ebikes. I am not arguing that Ebikes should be banned from all trails, but they are already not included in most multi-use designations for good reason. They can, however, be ridden wherever motorcycles can ride, such as Downieville, Corral, etc.
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  18. #118
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    ^^ Well said, Julie. I can't believe it took 117 posts for somebody to connect (3) dots.

    Maybe next we can tackle the difference between peddle and pedal. Or why professional soccer players--grown-ass men--are obsessed with flopping. And how could an 11-year old girl possibly give professional golfers a run for their money? It's full-on, Princess Bride inconceivable!
    Last edited by dirtvert; 06-20-2014 at 12:57 PM.
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  19. #119
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    What he said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    ddproctor, I think that the argument of increased numbers is weak, especially absent any factual data about the frequency of use of the two condition you present. Unless, of course, you simply want to say that the more the trails are used the more they degrade. In which case that works against us in terms of our future access to trips thus far denied to us.

    Or if you are talking about "earning your downhills", well, we've been there before and that gets us nowhere. For my part, I love the climb and simply riding up the hill doesn't have much meaning for me. So I guess I "earn" my climbs but so what. Not everyone has to ride that way.

    No, I think that this discussion has yet to hit on a fundamental understanding of this issue. As far as I can see most of the resistance boils down to just not liking the idea of power-assisted riding and coming up with reasons afterwards, reason to keep them off of "our" trails. And that, my friends, is exactly what the hikers and equestrians have been doing to us for years.

  20. #120
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    Today in the Contra Costa Times is an article on the Harley Davidson full-sized electric motorcycle that goes 0-60 in 4 seconds:

    "Some people may get on it thinking 'golf cart,'" lead engineer Jeff Richlen said, "and they get off thing, 'rocket ship'".

    AGAIN:

    What is the real intention of refusing motorized access? What qualities do they express that make them a problem? How does that relate to bikes?
    I don't rattle.

  21. #121
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    All of the anti-pedal assisted bike comments reminds me the intolerance from the horse people. Who cares if kom's, if someone wants to cheat it, they can.

  22. #122
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    Sadly This could lead to a whole bunch of people taking to the trails who are not in good enough shape to ride them otherwise. I would make an exception to elderly or someone with a disability as in ADA. Not someone who through neglect or lack of interest has not developed sufficient coordination and strength to enable them to pedal a bicycle. Introducing this onto a bicycle trail is opening the door to other forms of powered bicycles. It will also encourage those who put not a ha'peth of effort or money into the building or maintenance of trail system. Not only will the trails be destroyed anything that is difficult will be remove for safety reasons. Let the electric bicycles go ahead and play on the nicly manicured grass at the local park or on paved bike trail where they can enjoy a coffee shop on every corner and never get dirty

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    The only thing that makes this contraption a "bike" is that it has peddles. In every other way it is a moto. It has the power and torque to do some serious trail damage, and there's no way it should be allowed on non-motorized trails. Looks like it can roost up the trail as good as any other moto can, (dude even says how cool it is that he can "power out of the berms with it") and I'm pretty sure that every other trail user would NOT be stoked to have these things flying up on them at 50+ mph, especially without the usual loud noise of a traditional moto to warn them...
    Attachment 902050Attachment 902051Attachment 902052Attachment 902053

    Keep them on trails open to motorized use only.

    Even worse, look at what this dude is doing to the trail!
    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?-p4pb3296664.jpg

    ...oh wait, he's on a normal mountain bike. Maybe we should ban them too because a few guys are gnarly enough to throw a roost with them.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    Even worse, look at what this dude is doing to the trail!
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	p4pb3296664.jpg 
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    ...oh wait, he's on a normal mountain bike. Maybe we should ban them too because a few guys are gnarly enough to throw a roost with them.
    That looks like a race course to me.
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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    What is the real intention of refusing motorized access? What qualities do they express that make them a problem? How does that relate to bikes?
    You honestly can't come up with any reason why it might make things problematic for us if we have to become advocates for motorized bikes on existing multi-use trails in the bay area?
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  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassiopia View Post
    Sadly This could lead to a whole bunch of people taking to the trails who are not in good enough shape to ride them otherwise. I would make an exception to elderly or someone with a disability as in ADA. Not someone who through neglect or lack of interest has not developed sufficient coordination and strength to enable them to pedal a bicycle. Introducing this onto a bicycle trail is opening the door to other forms of powered bicycles. It will also encourage those who put not a ha'peth of effort or money into the building or maintenance of trail system. Not only will the trails be destroyed anything that is difficult will be remove for safety reasons. Let the electric bicycles go ahead and play on the nicly manicured grass at the local park or on paved bike trail where they can enjoy a coffee shop on every corner and never get dirty
    I think someone farther up was mentioning the whole slippery slope argument. Let's analyze what you just said:

    You don't have to be a fit person to enjoy mountain biking on one of these so one thing leads to another and suddenly no one is doing train maintenance, the trails will be destroyed and somehow the trails will be simultaneously sanitized! ...you know, sanitized by all those people who didn't want to do trail maintenance. ...because their bikes make pedaling easier.

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassiopia View Post
    Sadly This could lead to a whole bunch of people taking to the trails who are not in good enough shape to ride them otherwise. I would make an exception to elderly or someone with a disability as in ADA. Not someone who through neglect or lack of interest has not developed sufficient coordination and strength to enable them to pedal a bicycle. Introducing this onto a bicycle trail is opening the door to other forms of powered bicycles. It will also encourage those who put not a ha'peth of effort or money into the building or maintenance of trail system. Not only will the trails be destroyed anything that is difficult will be remove for safety reasons. Let the electric bicycles go ahead and play on the nicly manicured grass at the local park or on paved bike trail where they can enjoy a coffee shop on every corner and never get dirty
    So it's perfectly ok for old and disabled people to ride their new e-bikes out into the wilderness and risk running out of juice or having a technical, but not ok for the able bodied that have the capacity to push/pedal their ebike back to civilization?
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  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgw2jr View Post
    That looks like a race course to me.
    You're correct, it's the sea otter DS course to be exact. I'm not a big fan of posting pictures of riders roosting multi-use trails all over the internet for the haters to use against us.

    Moral of the story is: people can cause trail damage no matter what method they choose to use to access it. Using the trail damage potential as a basis for banning that type of recreation from the trail is not a good argument for any user group, especially bikes.

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    You honestly can't come up with any reason why it might make things problematic for us if we have to become advocates for motorized bikes on existing multi-use trails in the bay area?
    I think you should ride one before passing judgement. I can go faster down a hill on my regular mountain bike.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    You're correct, it's the sea otter DS course to be exact. I'm not a big fan of posting pictures of riders roosting multi-use trails all over the internet for the haters to use against us.

    Moral of the story is: people can cause trail damage no matter what method they choose to use to access it. Using the trail damage potential as a basis for banning that type of recreation from the trail is not a good argument for any user group, especially bikes.
    I kind of see your point. However, the guy in that pic is roosting under his own power and using up a lot of energy. When he's done I'm sure he's huffing and puffing, dripping with sweat, and ready for a beer and a burger.

    Now Joe Sixpack on an e-bike can do that up and down the hill, no berms required, without breaking a sweat.

    The problem is not necessarily the tool but the energy source. Human power output is limited. Other power sources are almost limitless by comparison.
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  31. #131
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    It IS a motorcycle and IT IS stupid. There are ZERO good things that can come out of this. If you want a motorized rush, buy a dirt bike or go to Six Flags. If not, earn your turn.
    “People fear death even more than pain. It's strange that they fear death. Life hurts a lot more than death." JM

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    I think you should ride one before passing judgement. I can go faster down a hill on my regular mountain bike.
    It's not about passing judgement on e-bikes except in a half-joking manner with me. How many times do I have to repeat that I'm more concerned about the politics and the perceptions of land managers and fueling anti-mtb rage? True, I don't really care to own one, or ride one. Frankly, an actual, real dirt bike sounds way more fun.
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    Honestly, how much faster do these things help you go? If someone is physically unable to ride a standard mtb because of injury, age, or whatever, are they really going to be powering thru the single track at a ridiculous speed? As long they don't do damage to the trails(which I have seen plenty of standard mtb's do), what is the big deal? If your worried about your KOMs, I seriously doubt the average emtb rider even uses strava. Maybe I am being ignorant about this, but I am picturing older people riding who otherwise couldnt. I doubt they are gonna be ripping down the awesome rock gardens, etc. Leave well enough alone is what I say.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgw2jr View Post
    I kind of see your point. However, the guy in that pic is roosting under his own power and using up a lot of energy. When he's done I'm sure he's huffing and puffing, dripping with sweat, and ready for a beer and a burger.

    Now Joe Sixpack on an e-bike can do that up and down the hill, no berms required, without breaking a sweat.

    The problem is not necessarily the tool but the energy source. Human power output is limited. Other power sources are almost limitless by comparison.
    The battery on one of those bosch motors when turned all the way up will last you about 30 miles. If you're some how pulling wheel spin from one, which I found very hard to do, you'll probably use it up even quicker than that. Once that happens then you're back to pedaling a 40 lb bike or hopefully back home and done with your ride.

    Most of the arguments here are coming from people who haven't ridden an ebike and it's painfully obvious given the assumptions some of you guys are making.

    Let me help out and lets make sure everyone knows I'm talking about an ebike -

    You still have to pedal to make power and at max the motor will boost your power by 250%. That's not enough to break the back wheel loose unless you're sprinting like a maniac through a corner while leaning your weight over your bars. I know this because I tried. If you do somehow manage to roost every turn of your ride, you will be insanely tired from sprinting through each corner.

    The motor assist maxes out at 20 MPH. That's not to say you can just sit down an hit a button and go 20, you have to pedal hard to get there and continue to pedal hard to maintain that pace on flat or uphill slopes. Downhill is a moot point because we can all go faster than 20 mph riding our bikes downhill.

    I have a motorcycle and I have a mountain bike and I ride them both quite a bit. An ebike is absolutely NOTHING like a motorcycle. The best way I could describe riding one is like being in really really really amazing riding shape. In short, you still earn your turns, but you can earn a lot more of them in a shorter time.

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    It's not about passing judgement on e-bikes except in a half-joking manner with me. How many times do I have to repeat that I'm more concerned about the politics and the perceptions of land managers and fueling anti-mtb rage? True, I don't really care to own one, or ride one. Frankly, an actual, real dirt bike sounds way more fun.
    Unless someone is going by in a full on sprint, I don't think the average joe will notice something is up when you ride by them on one. They're quiet and they help you climb a little faster but otherwise it would probably look like you're just out for a bike ride.

    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?-mvp-ebike-demo5-1024x768.jpg

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    The battery on one of those bosch motors when turned all the way up will last you about 30 miles. If you're some how pulling wheel spin from one, which I found very hard to do, you'll probably use it up even quicker than that. Once that happens then you're back to pedaling a 40 lb bike or hopefully back home and done with your ride.

    Most of the arguments here are coming from people who haven't ridden an ebike and it's painfully obvious given the assumptions some of you guys are making.

    Let me help out and lets make sure everyone knows I'm talking about an ebike -

    You still have to pedal to make power and at max the motor will boost your power by 250%. That's not enough to break the back wheel loose unless you're sprinting like a maniac through a corner while leaning your weight over your bars. I know this because I tried. If you do somehow manage to roost every turn of your ride, you will be insanely tired from sprinting through each corner.

    The motor assist maxes out at 20 MPH. That's not to say you can just sit down an hit a button and go 20, you have to pedal hard to get there and continue to pedal hard to maintain that pace on flat or uphill slopes. Downhill is a moot point because we can all go faster than 20 mph riding our bikes downhill.

    I have a motorcycle and I have a mountain bike and I ride them both quite a bit. An ebike is absolutely NOTHING like a motorcycle. The best way I could describe riding one is like being in really really really amazing riding shape. In short, you still earn your turns, but you can earn a lot more of them in a shorter time.
    Hey Mr. bdamschen,

    Please don't bother me with the facts! I have an opinion and I've already made up my mind!!

    On a more serious note....thanks for an informative post. What you describe sounds like it could fit in a multi use trail with a generous helping of rider judgment thrown in the mix. The eBikes that incorporate a throttle that supplies power without the need to pedal would seem to be much more problematic. That second group does seem, to this uneducated rider, much more like an electronic motorcycle with all the attendant challenges when placed in a non-motorized trail.

    Thanks again,

    Michael
    If you can't keep the rubber side down......at least smile for the camera!

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelsnead View Post
    Hey Mr. bdamschen,

    Please don't bother me with the facts! I have an opinion and I've already made up my mind!!

    On a more serious note....thanks for an informative post. What you describe sounds like it could fit in a multi use trail with a generous helping of rider judgment thrown in the mix. The eBikes that incorporate a throttle that supplies power without the need to pedal would seem to be much more problematic. That second group does seem, to this uneducated rider, much more like an electronic motorcycle with all the attendant challenges when placed in a non-motorized trail.

    Thanks again,

    Michael
    Check it this out. I would buy one of these bikes today if it were available in the states:

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    The battery on one of those bosch motors when turned all the way up will last you about 30 miles. If you're some how pulling wheel spin from one, which I found very hard to do, you'll probably use it up even quicker than that. Once that happens then you're back to pedaling a 40 lb bike or hopefully back home and done with your ride.

    Most of the arguments here are coming from people who haven't ridden an ebike and it's painfully obvious given the assumptions some of you guys are making.

    Let me help out and lets make sure everyone knows I'm talking about an ebike -

    You still have to pedal to make power and at max the motor will boost your power by 250%. That's not enough to break the back wheel loose unless you're sprinting like a maniac through a corner while leaning your weight over your bars. I know this because I tried. If you do somehow manage to roost every turn of your ride, you will be insanely tired from sprinting through each corner.

    The motor assist maxes out at 20 MPH. That's not to say you can just sit down an hit a button and go 20, you have to pedal hard to get there and continue to pedal hard to maintain that pace on flat or uphill slopes. Downhill is a moot point because we can all go faster than 20 mph riding our bikes downhill.

    I have a motorcycle and I have a mountain bike and I ride them both quite a bit. An ebike is absolutely NOTHING like a motorcycle. The best way I could describe riding one is like being in really really really amazing riding shape. In short, you still earn your turns, but you can earn a lot more of them in a shorter time.
    So the manufacturers are lying in their marketing when they say: The Bomber has 4.5kW of electrical output making it capable of reaching speeds of up to 50mph. (Quote from: Bomber - Stealth Electric Bikes USA | Electric Bikes | Electric Bicycles | Electric Mountain Bike - Stealth Electric Bikes - USA)? Or are you considering this "electric mountain bike" (their words) something other than the one you've ridden on and in a different category?

    In the accompanying video, it's pretty clear that that bike can go a hell of a lot faster than a peddled bike, and when he hits that berm (shown in the still captures from earlier in this thread) he is clearly roosting dirt with electric power to the wheel at the end of the berm. So, what's the difference between your version of an e-bike, and the Bomber -and other, similar designs? A throttle? a bulkier moto-style frame? They are all marketed as "electric bikes," and most trail users wouldn't be able to tell the difference when they are passed by what appears to be a motorized bike. Obviously these things will get more powerful, last longer, and have greater capabilities as the technology is improved upon and refined, and then where -or even if- do we draw the line between motorized and non-motorized?

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    So the manufacturers are lying in their marketing when they say: The Bomber has 4.5kW of electrical output making it capable of reaching speeds of up to 50mph. (Quote from: Bomber - Stealth Electric Bikes USA | Electric Bikes | Electric Bicycles | Electric Mountain Bike - Stealth Electric Bikes - USA)? Or are you considering this "electric mountain bike" (their words) something other than the one you've ridden on and in a different category?

    In the accompanying video, it's pretty clear that that bike can go a hell of a lot faster than a peddled bike, and when he hits that berm (shown in the still captures from earlier in this thread) he is clearly roosting dirt with electric power to the wheel at the end of the berm. So, what's the difference between your version of an e-bike, and the Bomber -and other, similar designs? A throttle? a bulkier moto-style frame? They are all marketed as "electric bikes," and most trail users wouldn't be able to tell the difference when they are passed by what appears to be a motorized bike. Obviously these things will get more powerful, last longer, and have greater capabilities as the technology is improved upon and refined, and then where -or even if- do we draw the line between motorized and non-motorized?
    Right, there's a pretty big difference in bikes and the bomber is totally going to accelerate more like a mini electric motor cycle than what I've been posting. I think the easiest way to differentiate is by weight. The bomber weights 116 lbs. The Overvolt FS weighs 48 lbs.

    Another option would be the way the DMV defines motorized scooters and limit by motor size. Just like anything 30cc and under can be ridden in the bike lane, you could say anything 450 watts and under can go on trails.

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    You honestly can't come up with any reason why it might make things problematic for us if we have to become advocates for motorized bikes on existing multi-use trails in the bay area?
    That is not the point. Personally I can come up with any number of reasons one way or the other.

    What i am trying to get at is what exists now, in the laws/rules, for managing the issues of motorized access. What are the underlying principles? Those factors are far more powerful than any opinions we may have, yet opinions is all we seem to get. Like a mother; everyone has them but what good are opinions?

    Somehow the mountain biking community is unable to grasp this model where advocacy is involved and expect opinions to hold sway. They seem to be doing the same thing here.
    I don't rattle.

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    That is not the point. Personally I can come up with any number of reasons one way or the other.

    What i am trying to get at is what exists now, in the laws/rules, for managing the issues of motorized access. What are the underlying principles? Those factors are far more powerful than any opinions we may have, yet opinions is all we seem to get. Like a mother; everyone has them but what good are they?

    Somehow the mountain biking community is unable to grasp this model where advocacy is involved and expect opinions to hold sway. They seem to be doing the same thing here.
    Isn't the rule pretty much no motorized anything allowed on trails?

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    Unless someone is going by in a full on sprint, I don't think the average joe will notice something is up when you ride by them on one. They're quiet and they help you climb a little faster but otherwise it would probably look like you're just out for a bike ride.
    I have been passed by one on Hihn's mill, and being the E-bike-ingenue that I am, I noticed it. Mainly because I am not hearing-impaired. The first clue was the loud buzzing noise that came from far away down the trail and steadily got louder as it came by. The second clue was the dude riding up Hihn's mill at > 15 mph without even looking sweaty and he actually had enough breath to heckle me and my husband as he rode by. His bike looked much burlier than the one pictured in your post though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    Isn't the rule pretty much no motorized anything allowed on trails?

    I don't know. We need to hear form an interested old school moto-dude or we are just guessing.
    I don't rattle.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    I have been passed by one on Hihn's mill, and being the E-bike-ingenue that I am, I noticed it. Mainly because I am not hearing-impaired. The first clue was the loud buzzing noise that came from far away down the trail and steadily got louder as it came by. The second clue was the dude riding up Hihn's mill at > 15 mph without even looking sweaty and he actually had enough breath to heckle me and my husband as he rode by. His bike looked much burlier than the one pictured in your post though.
    It's hilarious to me that they're already out there ripping around and not trying to hide it and that they're even heckling!!! If I was out riding an ebike I think I would make an effort not to rub everyone's nose in how little I was suffering on climbs. Where can I trade my tact and diplomacy in for some cold hard cash?

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    I don't know. We need to hear form an interested old school moto-dude or we are just guessing.
    The existing rules have already been posted in this gigantic thread - by slocaus - Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts? - Page 2
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  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauldotcom View Post
    It IS a motorcycle and IT IS stupid. There are ZERO good things that can come out of this. If you want a motorized rush, buy a dirt bike or go to Six Flags. If not, earn your turn.
    No sir, according to the DMV, it is not a motorcycle. Who are you to tell people how to earn their rush. I enjoy peddling, but that doesn't mean everyone else has to.

    You are displaying signs of an elitist attitude, do you belong to a horseman's club?

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    Unfortunately I have an ebike.

    OK, I have an ebike. I am 41 and used to ride road and mtn bikes 15-20 hours or so a week. 4-10 hour mtn bike rides were my favorite. I used to have 9 bikes (my wife and I) road, mtn, single speed and snow. I took one dose of an antibiotic and it ruined both my Achilles tendons and caused an insane amount of pain and suffering. It has ruined my life. My whole life was around sports, mtn biking, dirt biking, kite surfing, skiing etc. My only savior in this has been being able to get out on an ebike. Would I rather be using 100% of my own power. Hell yeah. Is this the only way I can get out right now, yes. An ebike may of saved my life. The fact is you can't tell it is an ebike, it's quieter than my Chris King hubs and they are regulated by max wattage in the US and max top speeds of 20 mpg. On a bike trail from Tahoe City to Squaw I used to be able to ride at 20-30 mpg so I was actually going much FASTER when I could pedal. The bike weighs double my Ripley that I had to sell and has a limited range, no epic rides.

    I don't know where I stand on this issue but for somebody in my situation it's a savior and gives me something that I used to have but don't for now. I probably would of been against them until I found myself in this horrible situation as I can barely walk. They sell almost 200 million of them worldwide, most in China. It can work. It's easy to be against something unless it's your only option. If people commuted on them it could help save the world. 10 cents for 45 miles vs cars clogging the road and polluting. I don't know how it's going to shake out but for now it's game on for me...

  48. #148
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    This bike is a small fortune with a limited range and well over 100 lbs, the Bomber that is. It would not be legal on bike trails as it's way over the 750 watt max and 20 mph us limit. Just sayingl

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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    The existing rules have already been posted in this gigantic thread - by slocaus - Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts? - Page 2
    Still not what I am talking about. I'm not sure why this seems to be so hard but it does shape my question. I guess I'm talking motorcycles. Why the limitation?
    I don't rattle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yzfrider View Post
    tell(ing) people how to earn their rush. I enjoy peddling, but that doesn't mean everyone else has to.
    Opinions around "earning" your ride abound but I doubt that they have anything to do with the laws concerning access.
    I don't rattle.

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