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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Unless, of course, you simply want to say that the more the trails are used the more they degrade.
    This is exactly what I'm saying. I don't see how that works against us.

    And that, my friends, is exactly what the hikers and equestrians have been doing to us for years.
    Yes, and the early ebikers will say 'None of these 20KW ebikes!' and the 20KW ebikers will say 'No motos!' and the motos will say 'No storm trooper speeders!' until the trails are all freeway and one cannot go a quarter mile downhill without having to wait for a climber, and one cannot go anywhere near as fast downhill as they could before, knowing that someone may be coming up the climb at 15 MPH. Yes there are solutions to all these problems - DH only trails . . . more trails . . . but I don't think it'll be a fun process for a few years while this all gets sorted out.

    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, I think I've said everything I can here. I respect B-Mike's, Axe's and others opinion on this, I hope I'm wrong and we can all have nice dirt long after rain on relatively lightly trafficked trails with uninterrupted flowy downhill perfection.

    I'm out [mic drop]

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    This is a straw man argument. The answer is no, we shouldn't sit home, but, we shouldn't make it any easier.
    No, it was not a strawman argument. It was an analogy - regular bikes also do make it easier to go out and further. So do hiking boots. And horses - which everybody would agree are far more destructive than bikes.

    Any arguments of the type that restrictions should be only to the level so that the person making the argument is not affected are disingenuous.

    And why I can see the argument about regular motorbike noise and power somehow making trail experience worse for everybody else - even a tenuous argument at that - I can not see any clear evidence about silent, lower power electric assist bikes. I do not care about them because of cost, weight and hassle, but damn right I will use them once I can not pedal for a day anymore. There is no wholesale nature destruction and there is no annoyance to other trail users beyond their sense of righteousness.

  3. #103
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    No, it was not a strawman argument. It was an analogy - regular bikes also do make it easier to go out and further. So do hiking boots. And horses - which everybody would agree are far more destructive than bikes.

    Any arguments of the type that restrictions should be only to the level so that the person making the argument is not affected are disingenuous.

    And why I can see the argument about regular motorbike noise and power somehow making trail experience worse for everybody else - even a tenuous argument at that - I can not see any clear evidence about silent, lower power electric assist bikes. I do not care about them because of cost, weight and hassle, but damn right I will use them once I can not pedal for a day anymore. There is no wholesale nature destruction and there is no annoyance to other trail users beyond their sense of righteousness.
    You can ride an e-bike and I'll ride an electric dirt bike. http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/

    And we'll both be lazy and fat.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    There is no wholesale nature destruction and there is no annoyance to other trail users beyond their sense of righteousness.
    Since the degeneration in my hips will eventually keep me from swinging my legs over the top-tube of any bike, including an e-bike, I'll be demanding that I be allowed to run my e-ATV on all of the trails that I currently ride my bike on. As the only damage or irritant it'll produce is to other people's sense of righteousness, I'll expect your full support in my "right" right to ride anywhere, anytime I want on it and to modify the trails so that I can do so.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    ddproctor, I think that the argument of increased numbers is weak, especially absent any factual data about the frequency of use of the two condition you present. Unless, of course, you simply want to say that the more the trails are used the more they degrade. In which case that works against us in terms of our future access to trips thus far denied to us.

    Or if you are talking about "earning your downhills", well, we've been there before and that gets us nowhere. For my part, I love the climb and simply riding up the hill doesn't have much meaning for me. So I guess I "earn" my climbs but so what. Not everyone has to ride that way.

    No, I think that this discussion has yet to hit on a fundamental understanding of this issue. As far as I can see most of the resistance boils down to just not liking the idea of power-assisted riding and coming up with reasons afterwards, reason to keep them off of "our" trails. And that, my friends, is exactly what the hikers and equestrians have been doing to us for years.
    Spot on, Mike!!

    I think the anti-assist arguments are basically based in fear or aesthetics (electric assisted bikes offend me as a 'real' cyclist), with no actual data, or even real world anecdotes (which is not data, not even plural anecdotes). The other arguments fall into 'slippery slope' arguments. Well, if somebody has a 300W motor, the next guy will have a 600W motor, and the next guy (in an actual example given here) will have a 20 kilowatt motor! Dude, you just went from a few pounds of batteries and a light hub motor to the equivalent of a 700cc 26 horsepower gas motor. Tell me you just didn't slippery slope us to something completely unreasonable to strap to a bicycle just to add fear factor to your argument.

    I mean, really!!

    26 HP KAWASAKI LIQUID COOLED ENGINE FD731V-BS07

    And that pic floating around with the guy roosting up the dirt on the e-bike? Geez, people do that without the motor.

    And, what if the bike breaks down? How is that ANY different than any other bike break-down? ... broken chain, busted derailleurs, broken shock, taco'ed wheel, etc. We aren't talking about paraplegics suddenly going solo mountain biking in the most remote places here, having a breakdown and dying on the trail from exposure because of it... and HEY! LET'S BLAME THE BIKE!!! BAN THEM!!! I think we all know that it's a bad idea to go mountain biking solo somewhere very remote, with no means of calling for help, or where other passers-by won't see you.

    I mean, I know a guy who slipped a rear tire in a turn and ended up on the ground, breaking his hip. He couldn't move himself. If this happened out in the middle of nowhere, he would have been coyote food.

    See? That argument sounds like fear mongering rather than a real world problem that needs to be solved by laws and rules.

    All I'm saying is we need much better reasons to pass laws (or park rules) than 'it makes me feel icky-poo to see an electric assisted bike rider'.

  6. #106
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    Re: Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    I don't believe in allowing e-bikes on non-motorized trails for no other reason than I think it would open up the possibility of more powerful motorized bikes on the trails. Sure, it could start with a limit on power, but people are always trying to push their luck. Or just blatantly disobey the rules. As others stated, it'd be very difficult to enforce. How to most illegal trail users get busted? They get reported by other trail users. It's impossible to report someone for using an e-bike that's too powerful if you don't know it's too powerful.

    Also, how long would it be until some numbskull says to himself "hey, I saw a motor bike on this trail, I'm gonna bring my 125 tomorrow!" Don't overestimate people's intelligence, there really are people who think like that.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8iking VIIking View Post
    I don't believe in allowing e-bikes on non-motorized trails for no other reason than I think it would open up the possibility of more powerful motorized bikes on the trails. Sure, it could start with a limit on power, but people are always trying to push their luck. Or just blatantly disobey the rules. As others stated, it'd be very difficult to enforce. How to most illegal trail users get busted? They get reported by other trail users. It's impossible to report someone for using an e-bike that's too powerful if you don't know it's too powerful.

    Also, how long would it be until some numbskull says to himself "hey, I saw a motor bike on this trail, I'm gonna bring my 125 tomorrow!" Don't overestimate people's intelligence, there really are people who think like that.
    So, you're going with 'Slippery Slope'. Gotcha.

  8. #108
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    I think the ends of this argument are something like: On one hand making the trails accessible would increase support for them, however, folks who need motorized assistance may be less able to get themselves out of the woods if something breaks. On the other hand, if you allow e-bikes, what logic do you apply to the Whizzer rider to keep them off the trail? Whizzer motors are generally less expensive than E-bikes so if you try the "gas motors are too noisey/fast/impactive" argument you get the "don't keep me from the trail just because I'm mobility restricted and can't afford the more expensive alternative counter-argument.
    The most expensive bike in the world is still cheaper than the cheapest open heart surgery.

  9. #109
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    Re: Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    So, you're going with 'Slippery Slope'. Gotcha.
    More or less, yeah. I don't like the idea of jeopardizing our future trail use to please a small fringe group. Aren't there plenty of other off highway trails for them to use?

  10. #110
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    Some of these are the same arguments we advocates hear hikers and equestrians and non-recreationists throw at us... "More use, erosion creators, more illegal trails, concentrated use, idiots that aren't self-sufficient"... I think Mike is going that direction. Its valid.

    IMHO:

    E-bikes aren't human powered, they use electricity to drive a motor (doesn't matter if it assists or drives on its own, there IS a motor there powering the system). Its binary.

    Worst case scenario/eventuality:
    1. Someone with an ebike crashes into another trail user, injury results.
    2. The lawsuit goes against the deep pockets of the land manager.
    3. Damages awarded because technically the bike has an electric motor and was permitted or negligently permitted on those trails (i.e. land manager didn't follow their own enforcement of motorized restriction and associated risk mgmt plans).
    4. Damages carry cost and require mitigating risk of future occurrence.
    5. No clear way to regulate bikes and ebikes.
    6. Restrict/ban both as no way to ensure or mitigate "appropriate" judgement/enforcement of risk mitigants that protect from negligence/liability.

    Side Benefit to Land Manager: Decreased risk of future economic penalty & lower go forward operating costs due to lower usage driving down maintenance requirements, insurance premiums, and user conflict.

    Human powered is one of the big reasons we have a seat at the access table. Hikers, Equestrians, and Mt.Bikers all rely on sweat and pain to get us from point A to point B... on some level there is respect for each other's athletic prowess.

    Perception is reality. Unfortunately. [I'm focused on non-motorized/human powered only trails and systems].

    It's not a slippery slope, its an eventuality and that perception makes it a reality to MTB advocates and other human powered user groups that partner with or antagonize MTB advocates.

    So, its better to be clear and establish the position very clearly that Mt. Bikes are non-motorized and belong on non-motorized/human powered trails. Ebikes, since they have a motor do not have a place on said trails.

    I'm not against Ebikes organizing for their own advocacy. But the burden, like MTB has done before them, should be on them to develop the research, risk mitigation, trail design, volunteer time & $ donations that benefit other trail users. Otherwise, they risk losing access for not just themselves, but for all bikes, and that is untenable.

    From the advocacy trenches in NIMBY rich CT ~TF

  11. #111
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    The harder it is to discern between a human powered mountain bike and a motorized mountain bike, the closer we will all get lumped in with the MX'ers and their rules and regulations (much to the glee of anti-MTB activists) and I believe this will affect access for wheels on non-motorized trails. I hope I'm wrong.

  12. #112
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    "some level there is respect for each other's athletic prowess"

    Does this apply to the baby whales I've seen on horses?

    All kidding aside, human powered transport is the key here - if we start allowing powered bikes, then we might as well allow 4x4s.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    The harder it is to discern between a human powered mountain bike and a motorized mountain bike, the closer we will all get lumped in with the MX'ers and their rules and regulations (much to the glee of anti-MTB activists) and I believe this will affect access for wheels on non-motorized trails. I hope I'm wrong.
    Ooh, I think you've got the solution. Let E-Bikes ride anywhere MX'rs ride. They get access to trails and we don't have to deal with them. They're less damaging to trails than motorcycles.
    The most expensive bike in the world is still cheaper than the cheapest open heart surgery.

  14. #114
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by thefriar View Post
    E-bikes aren't human powered
    Neither are horses. Or mule trains in wilderness.

    Comparing assisted bikes to 4x4 is preposterous. They are not comparable in any way whatsoever. You can not tell an e- bike when it rides by you.

  15. #115
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    Assisted bikes (e.g. pedal and get moar powar added, max speed of XYZ) don't bother me much. Twist grip--yeah, they're just motorcycles.
    What's the diff? Engagement of the rider. I see this in the city, twist grip people pay as little attention as car drivers often and just kinda go because it's the least effort thing to do. (Vs. kinda like bicycles darting between cars because they don't want to stop--but in that case they're often hyper-attentive).
    Maybe I'm wrong here. But I see no reason to shut them out at first, but certainly enagement with the riders is useful.

    I also think there should be way more off road motorcycle areas near population centers!

  16. #116
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    I'm not in the US, but regardless, introducing more rules, conflict and competition for land space and recognition is never a solution. It just complicates things - and on and on it goes.

    What is pretty obvious around here is that when riders encounter other trail users, a happy exchange is likely. We know the trails are MTB specific. They don't have a clue, or care because they like being in the bush; no different to us really. Sometimes a walker, runner or dog will get in the way and it can be a pi$$er. No more though than a rider to rider encounter in rad terrain.

    I don't see e-bikes changing the primary rules of looking ahead and being able to control your vehicle at all times. No-one wants a collision with anything. Sometimes that is forgotten.

    My counsel would be to let it ride and see what happens. MTB has a pro-active history and has more clout than motorised transport on trails. It will probably be better in the long run to have the assisted bike brigade on side with MTB against the evils of equestrian and the sierra club style, perpetually morally outraged, green advocates who pose a greater threat to MTB and most of humanity than any gaggle of e-bikers.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    No, I think that this discussion has yet to hit on a fundamental understanding of this issue. As far as I can see most of the resistance boils down to just not liking the idea of power-assisted riding and coming up with reasons afterwards, reason to keep them off of "our" trails. And that, my friends, is exactly what the hikers and equestrians have been doing to us for years.
    I understand that some arguments we make against ebikes can sound a lot like the arguments made against us by anti-mtb folks. But the current arguments carefully crafted by mtb advocates to help land managers and the public understand that mountain bikers are not in fact, the devil's spawn, include:

    1) it is a human-powered activity
    2) it promotes a healthy lifestyle
    3) one can reference studies that demonstrate that the difference in the environmental impact of mountain biking vs. hiking is insignificant. https://www.imba.com/resources/resea...best-practices

    All of these above arguments no longer apply once we start lumping ourselves in the same category as ebikes. I am not arguing that Ebikes should be banned from all trails, but they are already not included in most multi-use designations for good reason. They can, however, be ridden wherever motorcycles can ride, such as Downieville, Corral, etc.
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  18. #118
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    ^^ Well said, Julie. I can't believe it took 117 posts for somebody to connect (3) dots.

    Maybe next we can tackle the difference between peddle and pedal. Or why professional soccer players--grown-ass men--are obsessed with flopping. And how could an 11-year old girl possibly give professional golfers a run for their money? It's full-on, Princess Bride inconceivable!
    Last edited by dirtvert; 06-20-2014 at 12:57 PM.
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  19. #119
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    What he said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    ddproctor, I think that the argument of increased numbers is weak, especially absent any factual data about the frequency of use of the two condition you present. Unless, of course, you simply want to say that the more the trails are used the more they degrade. In which case that works against us in terms of our future access to trips thus far denied to us.

    Or if you are talking about "earning your downhills", well, we've been there before and that gets us nowhere. For my part, I love the climb and simply riding up the hill doesn't have much meaning for me. So I guess I "earn" my climbs but so what. Not everyone has to ride that way.

    No, I think that this discussion has yet to hit on a fundamental understanding of this issue. As far as I can see most of the resistance boils down to just not liking the idea of power-assisted riding and coming up with reasons afterwards, reason to keep them off of "our" trails. And that, my friends, is exactly what the hikers and equestrians have been doing to us for years.

  20. #120
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    Today in the Contra Costa Times is an article on the Harley Davidson full-sized electric motorcycle that goes 0-60 in 4 seconds:

    "Some people may get on it thinking 'golf cart,'" lead engineer Jeff Richlen said, "and they get off thing, 'rocket ship'".

    AGAIN:

    What is the real intention of refusing motorized access? What qualities do they express that make them a problem? How does that relate to bikes?
    I don't rattle.

  21. #121
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    All of the anti-pedal assisted bike comments reminds me the intolerance from the horse people. Who cares if kom's, if someone wants to cheat it, they can.

  22. #122
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    Sadly This could lead to a whole bunch of people taking to the trails who are not in good enough shape to ride them otherwise. I would make an exception to elderly or someone with a disability as in ADA. Not someone who through neglect or lack of interest has not developed sufficient coordination and strength to enable them to pedal a bicycle. Introducing this onto a bicycle trail is opening the door to other forms of powered bicycles. It will also encourage those who put not a ha'peth of effort or money into the building or maintenance of trail system. Not only will the trails be destroyed anything that is difficult will be remove for safety reasons. Let the electric bicycles go ahead and play on the nicly manicured grass at the local park or on paved bike trail where they can enjoy a coffee shop on every corner and never get dirty

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    The only thing that makes this contraption a "bike" is that it has peddles. In every other way it is a moto. It has the power and torque to do some serious trail damage, and there's no way it should be allowed on non-motorized trails. Looks like it can roost up the trail as good as any other moto can, (dude even says how cool it is that he can "power out of the berms with it") and I'm pretty sure that every other trail user would NOT be stoked to have these things flying up on them at 50+ mph, especially without the usual loud noise of a traditional moto to warn them...
    Attachment 902050Attachment 902051Attachment 902052Attachment 902053

    Keep them on trails open to motorized use only.

    Even worse, look at what this dude is doing to the trail!
    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?-p4pb3296664.jpg

    ...oh wait, he's on a normal mountain bike. Maybe we should ban them too because a few guys are gnarly enough to throw a roost with them.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    Even worse, look at what this dude is doing to the trail!
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	p4pb3296664.jpg 
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    ...oh wait, he's on a normal mountain bike. Maybe we should ban them too because a few guys are gnarly enough to throw a roost with them.
    That looks like a race course to me.
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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    What is the real intention of refusing motorized access? What qualities do they express that make them a problem? How does that relate to bikes?
    You honestly can't come up with any reason why it might make things problematic for us if we have to become advocates for motorized bikes on existing multi-use trails in the bay area?
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassiopia View Post
    Sadly This could lead to a whole bunch of people taking to the trails who are not in good enough shape to ride them otherwise. I would make an exception to elderly or someone with a disability as in ADA. Not someone who through neglect or lack of interest has not developed sufficient coordination and strength to enable them to pedal a bicycle. Introducing this onto a bicycle trail is opening the door to other forms of powered bicycles. It will also encourage those who put not a ha'peth of effort or money into the building or maintenance of trail system. Not only will the trails be destroyed anything that is difficult will be remove for safety reasons. Let the electric bicycles go ahead and play on the nicly manicured grass at the local park or on paved bike trail where they can enjoy a coffee shop on every corner and never get dirty
    I think someone farther up was mentioning the whole slippery slope argument. Let's analyze what you just said:

    You don't have to be a fit person to enjoy mountain biking on one of these so one thing leads to another and suddenly no one is doing train maintenance, the trails will be destroyed and somehow the trails will be simultaneously sanitized! ...you know, sanitized by all those people who didn't want to do trail maintenance. ...because their bikes make pedaling easier.

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassiopia View Post
    Sadly This could lead to a whole bunch of people taking to the trails who are not in good enough shape to ride them otherwise. I would make an exception to elderly or someone with a disability as in ADA. Not someone who through neglect or lack of interest has not developed sufficient coordination and strength to enable them to pedal a bicycle. Introducing this onto a bicycle trail is opening the door to other forms of powered bicycles. It will also encourage those who put not a ha'peth of effort or money into the building or maintenance of trail system. Not only will the trails be destroyed anything that is difficult will be remove for safety reasons. Let the electric bicycles go ahead and play on the nicly manicured grass at the local park or on paved bike trail where they can enjoy a coffee shop on every corner and never get dirty
    So it's perfectly ok for old and disabled people to ride their new e-bikes out into the wilderness and risk running out of juice or having a technical, but not ok for the able bodied that have the capacity to push/pedal their ebike back to civilization?
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  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgw2jr View Post
    That looks like a race course to me.
    You're correct, it's the sea otter DS course to be exact. I'm not a big fan of posting pictures of riders roosting multi-use trails all over the internet for the haters to use against us.

    Moral of the story is: people can cause trail damage no matter what method they choose to use to access it. Using the trail damage potential as a basis for banning that type of recreation from the trail is not a good argument for any user group, especially bikes.

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    You honestly can't come up with any reason why it might make things problematic for us if we have to become advocates for motorized bikes on existing multi-use trails in the bay area?
    I think you should ride one before passing judgement. I can go faster down a hill on my regular mountain bike.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    You're correct, it's the sea otter DS course to be exact. I'm not a big fan of posting pictures of riders roosting multi-use trails all over the internet for the haters to use against us.

    Moral of the story is: people can cause trail damage no matter what method they choose to use to access it. Using the trail damage potential as a basis for banning that type of recreation from the trail is not a good argument for any user group, especially bikes.
    I kind of see your point. However, the guy in that pic is roosting under his own power and using up a lot of energy. When he's done I'm sure he's huffing and puffing, dripping with sweat, and ready for a beer and a burger.

    Now Joe Sixpack on an e-bike can do that up and down the hill, no berms required, without breaking a sweat.

    The problem is not necessarily the tool but the energy source. Human power output is limited. Other power sources are almost limitless by comparison.
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  31. #131
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    It IS a motorcycle and IT IS stupid. There are ZERO good things that can come out of this. If you want a motorized rush, buy a dirt bike or go to Six Flags. If not, earn your turn.
    “People fear death even more than pain. It's strange that they fear death. Life hurts a lot more than death." JM

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    I think you should ride one before passing judgement. I can go faster down a hill on my regular mountain bike.
    It's not about passing judgement on e-bikes except in a half-joking manner with me. How many times do I have to repeat that I'm more concerned about the politics and the perceptions of land managers and fueling anti-mtb rage? True, I don't really care to own one, or ride one. Frankly, an actual, real dirt bike sounds way more fun.
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  33. #133
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    Honestly, how much faster do these things help you go? If someone is physically unable to ride a standard mtb because of injury, age, or whatever, are they really going to be powering thru the single track at a ridiculous speed? As long they don't do damage to the trails(which I have seen plenty of standard mtb's do), what is the big deal? If your worried about your KOMs, I seriously doubt the average emtb rider even uses strava. Maybe I am being ignorant about this, but I am picturing older people riding who otherwise couldnt. I doubt they are gonna be ripping down the awesome rock gardens, etc. Leave well enough alone is what I say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgw2jr View Post
    I kind of see your point. However, the guy in that pic is roosting under his own power and using up a lot of energy. When he's done I'm sure he's huffing and puffing, dripping with sweat, and ready for a beer and a burger.

    Now Joe Sixpack on an e-bike can do that up and down the hill, no berms required, without breaking a sweat.

    The problem is not necessarily the tool but the energy source. Human power output is limited. Other power sources are almost limitless by comparison.
    The battery on one of those bosch motors when turned all the way up will last you about 30 miles. If you're some how pulling wheel spin from one, which I found very hard to do, you'll probably use it up even quicker than that. Once that happens then you're back to pedaling a 40 lb bike or hopefully back home and done with your ride.

    Most of the arguments here are coming from people who haven't ridden an ebike and it's painfully obvious given the assumptions some of you guys are making.

    Let me help out and lets make sure everyone knows I'm talking about an ebike -

    You still have to pedal to make power and at max the motor will boost your power by 250%. That's not enough to break the back wheel loose unless you're sprinting like a maniac through a corner while leaning your weight over your bars. I know this because I tried. If you do somehow manage to roost every turn of your ride, you will be insanely tired from sprinting through each corner.

    The motor assist maxes out at 20 MPH. That's not to say you can just sit down an hit a button and go 20, you have to pedal hard to get there and continue to pedal hard to maintain that pace on flat or uphill slopes. Downhill is a moot point because we can all go faster than 20 mph riding our bikes downhill.

    I have a motorcycle and I have a mountain bike and I ride them both quite a bit. An ebike is absolutely NOTHING like a motorcycle. The best way I could describe riding one is like being in really really really amazing riding shape. In short, you still earn your turns, but you can earn a lot more of them in a shorter time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    It's not about passing judgement on e-bikes except in a half-joking manner with me. How many times do I have to repeat that I'm more concerned about the politics and the perceptions of land managers and fueling anti-mtb rage? True, I don't really care to own one, or ride one. Frankly, an actual, real dirt bike sounds way more fun.
    Unless someone is going by in a full on sprint, I don't think the average joe will notice something is up when you ride by them on one. They're quiet and they help you climb a little faster but otherwise it would probably look like you're just out for a bike ride.

    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?-mvp-ebike-demo5-1024x768.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    The battery on one of those bosch motors when turned all the way up will last you about 30 miles. If you're some how pulling wheel spin from one, which I found very hard to do, you'll probably use it up even quicker than that. Once that happens then you're back to pedaling a 40 lb bike or hopefully back home and done with your ride.

    Most of the arguments here are coming from people who haven't ridden an ebike and it's painfully obvious given the assumptions some of you guys are making.

    Let me help out and lets make sure everyone knows I'm talking about an ebike -

    You still have to pedal to make power and at max the motor will boost your power by 250%. That's not enough to break the back wheel loose unless you're sprinting like a maniac through a corner while leaning your weight over your bars. I know this because I tried. If you do somehow manage to roost every turn of your ride, you will be insanely tired from sprinting through each corner.

    The motor assist maxes out at 20 MPH. That's not to say you can just sit down an hit a button and go 20, you have to pedal hard to get there and continue to pedal hard to maintain that pace on flat or uphill slopes. Downhill is a moot point because we can all go faster than 20 mph riding our bikes downhill.

    I have a motorcycle and I have a mountain bike and I ride them both quite a bit. An ebike is absolutely NOTHING like a motorcycle. The best way I could describe riding one is like being in really really really amazing riding shape. In short, you still earn your turns, but you can earn a lot more of them in a shorter time.
    Hey Mr. bdamschen,

    Please don't bother me with the facts! I have an opinion and I've already made up my mind!!

    On a more serious note....thanks for an informative post. What you describe sounds like it could fit in a multi use trail with a generous helping of rider judgment thrown in the mix. The eBikes that incorporate a throttle that supplies power without the need to pedal would seem to be much more problematic. That second group does seem, to this uneducated rider, much more like an electronic motorcycle with all the attendant challenges when placed in a non-motorized trail.

    Thanks again,

    Michael
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelsnead View Post
    Hey Mr. bdamschen,

    Please don't bother me with the facts! I have an opinion and I've already made up my mind!!

    On a more serious note....thanks for an informative post. What you describe sounds like it could fit in a multi use trail with a generous helping of rider judgment thrown in the mix. The eBikes that incorporate a throttle that supplies power without the need to pedal would seem to be much more problematic. That second group does seem, to this uneducated rider, much more like an electronic motorcycle with all the attendant challenges when placed in a non-motorized trail.

    Thanks again,

    Michael
    Check it this out. I would buy one of these bikes today if it were available in the states:

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    The battery on one of those bosch motors when turned all the way up will last you about 30 miles. If you're some how pulling wheel spin from one, which I found very hard to do, you'll probably use it up even quicker than that. Once that happens then you're back to pedaling a 40 lb bike or hopefully back home and done with your ride.

    Most of the arguments here are coming from people who haven't ridden an ebike and it's painfully obvious given the assumptions some of you guys are making.

    Let me help out and lets make sure everyone knows I'm talking about an ebike -

    You still have to pedal to make power and at max the motor will boost your power by 250%. That's not enough to break the back wheel loose unless you're sprinting like a maniac through a corner while leaning your weight over your bars. I know this because I tried. If you do somehow manage to roost every turn of your ride, you will be insanely tired from sprinting through each corner.

    The motor assist maxes out at 20 MPH. That's not to say you can just sit down an hit a button and go 20, you have to pedal hard to get there and continue to pedal hard to maintain that pace on flat or uphill slopes. Downhill is a moot point because we can all go faster than 20 mph riding our bikes downhill.

    I have a motorcycle and I have a mountain bike and I ride them both quite a bit. An ebike is absolutely NOTHING like a motorcycle. The best way I could describe riding one is like being in really really really amazing riding shape. In short, you still earn your turns, but you can earn a lot more of them in a shorter time.
    So the manufacturers are lying in their marketing when they say: The Bomber has 4.5kW of electrical output making it capable of reaching speeds of up to 50mph. (Quote from: Bomber - Stealth Electric Bikes USA | Electric Bikes | Electric Bicycles | Electric Mountain Bike - Stealth Electric Bikes - USA)? Or are you considering this "electric mountain bike" (their words) something other than the one you've ridden on and in a different category?

    In the accompanying video, it's pretty clear that that bike can go a hell of a lot faster than a peddled bike, and when he hits that berm (shown in the still captures from earlier in this thread) he is clearly roosting dirt with electric power to the wheel at the end of the berm. So, what's the difference between your version of an e-bike, and the Bomber -and other, similar designs? A throttle? a bulkier moto-style frame? They are all marketed as "electric bikes," and most trail users wouldn't be able to tell the difference when they are passed by what appears to be a motorized bike. Obviously these things will get more powerful, last longer, and have greater capabilities as the technology is improved upon and refined, and then where -or even if- do we draw the line between motorized and non-motorized?

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    So the manufacturers are lying in their marketing when they say: The Bomber has 4.5kW of electrical output making it capable of reaching speeds of up to 50mph. (Quote from: Bomber - Stealth Electric Bikes USA | Electric Bikes | Electric Bicycles | Electric Mountain Bike - Stealth Electric Bikes - USA)? Or are you considering this "electric mountain bike" (their words) something other than the one you've ridden on and in a different category?

    In the accompanying video, it's pretty clear that that bike can go a hell of a lot faster than a peddled bike, and when he hits that berm (shown in the still captures from earlier in this thread) he is clearly roosting dirt with electric power to the wheel at the end of the berm. So, what's the difference between your version of an e-bike, and the Bomber -and other, similar designs? A throttle? a bulkier moto-style frame? They are all marketed as "electric bikes," and most trail users wouldn't be able to tell the difference when they are passed by what appears to be a motorized bike. Obviously these things will get more powerful, last longer, and have greater capabilities as the technology is improved upon and refined, and then where -or even if- do we draw the line between motorized and non-motorized?
    Right, there's a pretty big difference in bikes and the bomber is totally going to accelerate more like a mini electric motor cycle than what I've been posting. I think the easiest way to differentiate is by weight. The bomber weights 116 lbs. The Overvolt FS weighs 48 lbs.

    Another option would be the way the DMV defines motorized scooters and limit by motor size. Just like anything 30cc and under can be ridden in the bike lane, you could say anything 450 watts and under can go on trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    You honestly can't come up with any reason why it might make things problematic for us if we have to become advocates for motorized bikes on existing multi-use trails in the bay area?
    That is not the point. Personally I can come up with any number of reasons one way or the other.

    What i am trying to get at is what exists now, in the laws/rules, for managing the issues of motorized access. What are the underlying principles? Those factors are far more powerful than any opinions we may have, yet opinions is all we seem to get. Like a mother; everyone has them but what good are opinions?

    Somehow the mountain biking community is unable to grasp this model where advocacy is involved and expect opinions to hold sway. They seem to be doing the same thing here.
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  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    That is not the point. Personally I can come up with any number of reasons one way or the other.

    What i am trying to get at is what exists now, in the laws/rules, for managing the issues of motorized access. What are the underlying principles? Those factors are far more powerful than any opinions we may have, yet opinions is all we seem to get. Like a mother; everyone has them but what good are they?

    Somehow the mountain biking community is unable to grasp this model where advocacy is involved and expect opinions to hold sway. They seem to be doing the same thing here.
    Isn't the rule pretty much no motorized anything allowed on trails?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    Unless someone is going by in a full on sprint, I don't think the average joe will notice something is up when you ride by them on one. They're quiet and they help you climb a little faster but otherwise it would probably look like you're just out for a bike ride.
    I have been passed by one on Hihn's mill, and being the E-bike-ingenue that I am, I noticed it. Mainly because I am not hearing-impaired. The first clue was the loud buzzing noise that came from far away down the trail and steadily got louder as it came by. The second clue was the dude riding up Hihn's mill at > 15 mph without even looking sweaty and he actually had enough breath to heckle me and my husband as he rode by. His bike looked much burlier than the one pictured in your post though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdamschen View Post
    Isn't the rule pretty much no motorized anything allowed on trails?

    I don't know. We need to hear form an interested old school moto-dude or we are just guessing.
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  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    I have been passed by one on Hihn's mill, and being the E-bike-ingenue that I am, I noticed it. Mainly because I am not hearing-impaired. The first clue was the loud buzzing noise that came from far away down the trail and steadily got louder as it came by. The second clue was the dude riding up Hihn's mill at > 15 mph without even looking sweaty and he actually had enough breath to heckle me and my husband as he rode by. His bike looked much burlier than the one pictured in your post though.
    It's hilarious to me that they're already out there ripping around and not trying to hide it and that they're even heckling!!! If I was out riding an ebike I think I would make an effort not to rub everyone's nose in how little I was suffering on climbs. Where can I trade my tact and diplomacy in for some cold hard cash?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    I don't know. We need to hear form an interested old school moto-dude or we are just guessing.
    The existing rules have already been posted in this gigantic thread - by slocaus - Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts? - Page 2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauldotcom View Post
    It IS a motorcycle and IT IS stupid. There are ZERO good things that can come out of this. If you want a motorized rush, buy a dirt bike or go to Six Flags. If not, earn your turn.
    No sir, according to the DMV, it is not a motorcycle. Who are you to tell people how to earn their rush. I enjoy peddling, but that doesn't mean everyone else has to.

    You are displaying signs of an elitist attitude, do you belong to a horseman's club?

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    Unfortunately I have an ebike.

    OK, I have an ebike. I am 41 and used to ride road and mtn bikes 15-20 hours or so a week. 4-10 hour mtn bike rides were my favorite. I used to have 9 bikes (my wife and I) road, mtn, single speed and snow. I took one dose of an antibiotic and it ruined both my Achilles tendons and caused an insane amount of pain and suffering. It has ruined my life. My whole life was around sports, mtn biking, dirt biking, kite surfing, skiing etc. My only savior in this has been being able to get out on an ebike. Would I rather be using 100% of my own power. Hell yeah. Is this the only way I can get out right now, yes. An ebike may of saved my life. The fact is you can't tell it is an ebike, it's quieter than my Chris King hubs and they are regulated by max wattage in the US and max top speeds of 20 mpg. On a bike trail from Tahoe City to Squaw I used to be able to ride at 20-30 mpg so I was actually going much FASTER when I could pedal. The bike weighs double my Ripley that I had to sell and has a limited range, no epic rides.

    I don't know where I stand on this issue but for somebody in my situation it's a savior and gives me something that I used to have but don't for now. I probably would of been against them until I found myself in this horrible situation as I can barely walk. They sell almost 200 million of them worldwide, most in China. It can work. It's easy to be against something unless it's your only option. If people commuted on them it could help save the world. 10 cents for 45 miles vs cars clogging the road and polluting. I don't know how it's going to shake out but for now it's game on for me...

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    This bike is a small fortune with a limited range and well over 100 lbs, the Bomber that is. It would not be legal on bike trails as it's way over the 750 watt max and 20 mph us limit. Just sayingl

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    Quote Originally Posted by shredchic View Post
    The existing rules have already been posted in this gigantic thread - by slocaus - Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts? - Page 2
    Still not what I am talking about. I'm not sure why this seems to be so hard but it does shape my question. I guess I'm talking motorcycles. Why the limitation?
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    Quote Originally Posted by yzfrider View Post
    tell(ing) people how to earn their rush. I enjoy peddling, but that doesn't mean everyone else has to.
    Opinions around "earning" your ride abound but I doubt that they have anything to do with the laws concerning access.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truckeemtb View Post
    OK, I have an ebike. I am 41 and used to ride road and mtn bikes 15-20 hours or so a week. 4-10 hour mtn bike rides were my favorite. I used to have 9 bikes (my wife and I) road, mtn, single speed and snow. I took one dose of an antibiotic and it ruined both my Achilles tendons and caused an insane amount of pain and suffering. It has ruined my life. My whole life was around sports, mtn biking, dirt biking, kite surfing, skiing etc. My only savior in this has been being able to get out on an ebike. Would I rather be using 100% of my own power. Hell yeah. Is this the only way I can get out right now, yes. An ebike may of saved my life. The fact is you can't tell it is an ebike, it's quieter than my Chris King hubs and they are regulated by max wattage in the US and max top speeds of 20 mpg. On a bike trail from Tahoe City to Squaw I used to be able to ride at 20-30 mpg so I was actually going much FASTER when I could pedal. The bike weighs double my Ripley that I had to sell and has a limited range, no epic rides.

    I don't know where I stand on this issue but for somebody in my situation it's a savior and gives me something that I used to have but don't for now. I probably would of been against them until I found myself in this horrible situation as I can barely walk. They sell almost 200 million of them worldwide, most in China. It can work. It's easy to be against something unless it's your only option. If people commuted on them it could help save the world. 10 cents for 45 miles vs cars clogging the road and polluting. I don't know how it's going to shake out but for now it's game on for me...

    So is it okay because Truckeemtb has cred?
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  52. #152
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    Limitations on motorized trail use was written into the fabric of many trail use management decisions long ago... first with the Wilderness Act of 1964 (where semantics played the primary role in banning bicycles ~20 years later), followed by President LBJ's speech in 1965, where he stated, "The forgotten outdoorsmen of today are those who like to walk, hike, ride horseback or bicycle. For them we must have trails as well as highways. Nor should motor vehicles be permitted to tyrannize the more leisurely human traffic."

    This speech lead to a 1966 Nationwide Trail Study (Trails for America) which resulted in the 1968 National Trails Act.... and motorized-free trails. While Congress and the Trails Act did accommodate motorized (OHV) use, the origins of non-motorized trails and Wilderness did not come from anything discussed in this thread... it came from giving people a place to get away from the sights and sounds of an increasingly motorized world... and all of the above has collectively caused no shortage of access issues for motorized enthusiasts (and MTB) since!

    From my seat, and I'm not a dirt biker, it has only gotten worse for the OHV crowd as they have been banned from many places (trails) they historically used, mostly under the flag of environmental issues, and they continue to fight for their right to enjoy public places. Meanwhile, MTB is seeing unprecedented access growth (in the form of building new trails around the country). Maybe not in the Bay Area or the foothills right now, but it's happening in many places and will happen in NorCal someday.

    As you know, mountain biking has worked hard for 30 years to be recognized as a legit human powered use of public trails. As electric bikes become more popular, the "non-motorized" card will be used more and more by pedestrians, equestrians and mt bikers to ban e-bikes from trails simply because they are motorized. If/when e-bikes become a management problem, I think there is a reasonable chance mountain biking could suffer a significant setback, as a simple solution from a land manager's standpoint is to make currently multi-use trails "wheel free"... or simply turning areas into MTB/e-bike/MX parks... as in the OHV parks that CA State Parks manages. Isn't it easier to boot all classes of bicycles off than to figure out which one is appropriate and which one is not?

    There are a lot (multi-millions?) of non-cycling trail users who would love to not deal with bicycles on trails. I think e-bikes could end up being their ticket for getting there, and they'll have mountain bikers to help them achieve that possible outcome, since many of us don't want 'em on "our trails".

    I personally have no issue with a responsibly ridden e-bike, but as I stated before in this thread, since they are motorized, and given the history, legislation and management of motorized trail use, we could all get lumped into a management decision that is unfavorable for us. I hope not, and I'd rather get this thing figured out sooner than later, when the ebikes are more prevalent.

  53. #153
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauldotcom View Post
    It IS a motorcycle and IT IS stupid. There are ZERO good things that can come out of this. If you want a motorized rush, buy a dirt bike or go to Six Flags. If not, earn your turn.
    Yes, and let's ban downhill mountain resorts too.

    No, it is not a motorcycle. It is barely heavier than a regular bike (let's ban fat people from riding, too much trail erosion). It is silent, and the is no motorized rush. It just lets you get uphill faster. So that you do not ride in a pickup truck on private property like so many people do near SC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    BM-

    Limitations on motorized trail use was written into the fabric of many trail use management decisions long ago... first with the Wilderness Act of 1964 (where semantics played the primary role in banning bicycles ~20 years later), followed by President LBJ's speech in 1965, where he stated, "The forgotten outdoorsmen of today are those who like to walk, hike, ride horseback or bicycle. For them we must have trails as well as highways. Nor should motor vehicles be permitted to tyrannize the more leisurely human traffic."

    This speech lead to a 1966 Nationwide Trail Study (Trails for America) which resulted in the 1968 National Trails Act.... and motorized-free trails. While Congress and the Trails Act did accommodate motorized (OHV) use, the origins of non-motorized trails and Wilderness did not come from anything discussed in this thread... it came from giving people a place to get away from the sights and sounds of an increasingly motorized world... and all of the above has collectively caused no shortage of access issues for motorized enthusiasts (and MTB) since!
    Thank you for this information. It puts a complexion on the issue independent of the other issues people are bringing up. If this is the foundation, and I am not sure there aren't other principles involved, the ebike can be understood in those terms, not mtb terms.
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  55. #155
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    This thread has gone fractal...

    I don't think the able-bodied should be using e-bikes purely for recreation in mixed use areas; but somewhere the line is blurred between recreation and transportation. Those two e-bikes allowed into Coe for a permitted event fell more into the category of transportation than recreation. They were being used by a father/son team to visit Coe's lakes/ponds for the purpose of fishing. Sure they had fun getting there (and they pedaled plenty too) but why should something be penalized for the "fun factor"?

    Here are those bikes:


    I'm not sure exactly what the ratings were; the white bike is advertised as 250w with a 500w option. They were both pretty quiet even though they had geared motors; as was mentioned previously they were no noisier than a loud freewheel.

    The other side of the coin (ADA access) needs to be considered in light of this:
    http://www.ada.gov/opdmd.pdf

    (The Segway crowd had much to do with this)

    Basically; if pedestrian traffic is allowed in a public area; so too must be OPMDs.

    Get used to it...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    So is it okay because Truckeemtb has cred?
    I got criticism for this comment. To clarify, it has less to do with Truckeemtb than it does with a prevailing sense that one must earn access. Truckeemtb, bless him for still getting out there, exposes that argument clearly.
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    The only problem with most of the arguments on here is that they are NOT classified as motorized vehicles so they are not illegal and can be ridden anywhere a regular bike can be ridden.

    "The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Act states that electric bicycles and tricycles meeting the definition of low-speed electric bicycles will be considered consumer products to be regulated by the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) [32] The Act provides that electric bikes are subject to the pre-existing rules for ordinary bicycles, and that the CPSC can promulgate additional rules to protect people who ride electric bikes. They are not considered motor vehicles under U.S. DOT and NHTSA regulations."

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    Wow, duck, if this had been posted after the initial post things would have been so much better. Great knowledge.

    The discussion did reveal a lot of biases, attitudes, assumptions, though. And those things have a lot of power.
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    In regards to Berkeley Mikes question about the root of the issue, I'm sticking to the slippery slope argument. As it stands, I suppose I don't have any real issue with low-wattage e-bikes. I will admit, I'll look down my nose at someone who uses one out of pure laziness, but that doesn't effect my views about their right to be out here. The stories of people having a legitimate need for them make it a really tough issue though. I more fear the doors that they will most certainly open, and the dialogue they will bring to the table. I don't want more people lobbying for access for motorized users. I don't think it needs to be pointed out how destructive motorized vehicles are off-road, and the dangers they could bring to a multi-use environment.

    As the technology advances it's going to be harder and harder to tell these things apart from normal bikes. I'm sure they will be tinkered with and modded by enthusiasts. With products like the Stealth bikes linked earlier in the thread - which could clearly tear up a trail, or seriously injure someone far worse than a normal bike due to their speed and weight, I think we need to draw a line in the sand now, or else people with these things will be saying, "What? It's just an e-bike!" as they fly past us at 40MPH.

    I would certainly be open to lower-wattage e-bikes for users with a legitimate need being allowed in area where motorized traffic is usually prohibited, but who is going to regulate that? Ain't nobody go time for that!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duck Fan View Post
    "The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Act states that electric bicycles and tricycles meeting the definition of low-speed electric bicycles will be considered consumer products to be regulated by the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) [32] The Act provides that electric bikes are subject to the pre-existing rules for ordinary bicycles, and that the CPSC can promulgate additional rules to protect people who ride electric bikes. They are not considered motor vehicles under U.S. DOT and NHTSA regulations."
    So what exactly is the definition of a "low-speed electric bicycle" though? And how can one easily spot the difference visually?
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  61. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe_510 View Post
    So what exactly is the definition of a "low-speed electric bicycle" though? And how can one easily spot the difference visually?

    An e-bike is:
    - motor can only kick in when rider is pedaling
    - motor assist will shut off at 20 mph
    - motor cannot be more than 750 watts (most athletes can sustain 250 watts).
    - not more than 100 lbs.

    That is current guideline and laws are being tested and developed for road use. It'll hash out there for road commuting. The leaders are in Europe where e-bikes are widely used. Some countries like Holland have up to 80% of the population using bikes regularly. Biking is not for the few but par of everyday life for everyone.

    So for the US on the trail, it's gonna be a long time til this plays out and gets settled. It'll play out first on the road. But the key with the definition above is it is not a motorized vehicle. But electric bikes do exist that are really motorcycles.

    More definitions:
    Electric bicycle laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Currently, e-bikes add 20 lbs to a bike (for the high-end) and they're good for about an hour of climbing use. In about 5 years, they'll add about 10 lbs.

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    U.S. Code › Title 15 › Chapter 47 › § 2085
    15 U.S. Code § 2085 - Low-speed electric bicycles


    Current through Pub. L. 113-108. (See Public Laws for the current Congress.)
    (a) Construction
    Notwithstanding any other provision of law, low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products within the meaning of section 2052 (a)(1) [1] of this title and shall be subject to the Commission regulations published at section 1500.18(a)(12) andpart 1512 of title 16, Code of Federal Regulations.
    (b) Definition
    For the purpose of this section, the term “low-speed electric bicycle” means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.

  63. #163
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duck Fan View Post
    The only problem with most of the arguments on here is that they are NOT classified as motorized vehicles so they are not illegal and can be ridden anywhere a regular bike can be ridden.

    "The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Act states that electric bicycles and tricycles meeting the definition of low-speed electric bicycles will be considered consumer products to be regulated by the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) [32] The Act provides that electric bikes are subject to the pre-existing rules for ordinary bicycles, and that the CPSC can promulgate additional rules to protect people who ride electric bikes. They are not considered motor vehicles under U.S. DOT and NHTSA regulations."
    They are in California.

    https://www.dmv.ca.gov/motorcycles/motorcycles.htm
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  64. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duck Fan View Post
    The only problem with most of the arguments on here is that they are NOT classified as motorized vehicles so they are not illegal and can be ridden anywhere a regular bike can be ridden.

    "The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Act states that electric bicycles and tricycles meeting the definition of low-speed electric bicycles will be considered consumer products to be regulated by the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) [32] The Act provides that electric bikes are subject to the pre-existing rules for ordinary bicycles, and that the CPSC can promulgate additional rules to protect people who ride electric bikes. They are not considered motor vehicles under U.S. DOT and NHTSA regulations."
    The context of the regulation(s) needs to be understood.

    The DOT/NHTSA/CPSC definitions have to do with which agency deals with e-bikes (product recalls, safety standards & etc); not where they can be operated.

    The only e-bikes with the "get out of jail free card" are the ones operated by the legitimately handicapped. And those power restrictions may not be applicable this case (except in Federal Wilderness Areas).

    Also; while the LEO may not ask about the nature of a persons disability the may still ask for proof of disability (such as a parking placard).
    Content here does not officially represent the CA DPR.

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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    DOT / NHSTA regs have nothing to do with natural surface trails...

    Most (all?) multi-use trails (hike/bike/horse) are explicitly non-motorized. e-bikes have motors, plain and simple, and therefore are *currently* not permitted by default. Enforcement is another issue.

    FWIW, this will be a hot-topic at the upcoming IMBA World Summit in Steamboat Springs, CO, in August (followed by a reception with Bike Snob NYC and lots of cold beer).

    Come hear from the experts (industry and land managers)... e-bikes are here to stay — we're just at the beginning of "how to manage" phase.
    -
    .And following our will and wind . . .
    . . .We'll ride the spiral to the end
    and may just go where no one's been.

  66. #166
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    Part of the question here is where will the line be drawn in the trail access battles. As Empty_Beer notes above, we MTB'ers have been focused for years on the fact that bikes are non-motorized and seek to maintain and extend trail access to everywhere that non-motorized travel can be made. Opponents of MTB access seek to draw the line at non-mechanical travel (as in the Wilderness areas).

    The conclusion is inevitable: regardless of your opinion about e-Bikes, if they are considered the same as MTBers and should have the same access as MTBers then the opponents of MTB access will win more battles, and MTBers will have less trail access in disputed areas. The line will be drawn at non-mechanical travel. Keeping the focus on the fact that we don't have motors will allow us greater access to trails. It is that simple.

  67. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truckeemtb View Post
    OK, I have an ebike. I am 41 and used to ride road and mtn bikes 15-20 hours or so a week. 4-10 hour mtn bike rides were my favorite. I used to have 9 bikes (my wife and I) road, mtn, single speed and snow. I took one dose of an antibiotic and it ruined both my Achilles tendons and caused an insane amount of pain and suffering. It has ruined my life. My whole life was around sports, mtn biking, dirt biking, kite surfing, skiing etc. My only savior in this has been being able to get out on an ebike. Would I rather be using 100% of my own power. Hell yeah. Is this the only way I can get out right now, yes. An ebike may of saved my life. The fact is you can't tell it is an ebike, it's quieter than my Chris King hubs and they are regulated by max wattage in the US and max top speeds of 20 mpg. On a bike trail from Tahoe City to Squaw I used to be able to ride at 20-30 mpg so I was actually going much FASTER when I could pedal. The bike weighs double my Ripley that I had to sell and has a limited range, no epic rides.

    I don't know where I stand on this issue but for somebody in my situation it's a savior and gives me something that I used to have but don't for now. I probably would of been against them until I found myself in this horrible situation as I can barely walk. They sell almost 200 million of them worldwide, most in China. It can work. It's easy to be against something unless it's your only option. If people commuted on them it could help save the world. 10 cents for 45 miles vs cars clogging the road and polluting. I don't know how it's going to shake out but for now it's game on for me...

    I used to run wilderness trails
    I used to bike single track trails

    Now I can't do either. Just because I was able to enjoy both, no law can be applied to me banning me from doing both. I will use motorize propulsion to get me to those places, widen the trails to accommodate my motorize vehicles.

    Try swimming, walking, spinning, yoga, weightlifting, pushups, pullups, palatis, etc....

    Know your limits and consider everyones elses rights

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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    I used to bag peaks, but now I want an escalator installed to help me.

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    Re: Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    I used to bag peaks, but now I want an escalator installed to help me.
    You could ride a segway up to the top!
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by dgw2jr View Post
    You could ride a segway up to the top!
    Not above class 2.

  71. #171
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    Ebikes are a new market and will be more mainstream than mountain bikes. People, investors and suppliers, who get in early look to make a lot of money. Ebikes will sponsor MTBR. Why do you think that Francois is so well informed; someone has been selling him on this. I have heard all of this info from front line ebike sales promos for the last 18 months.

    Riders who go from Mtb to gas-powered 2-wheeled experience will transition well. Those with less related experience will find themselves managing all the usual learning-curve events that unskilled mountain bikers encounter, such as injury, but with the added factor of the more remote locations that power-assist will make possible. In addition, their culture clash with other trail users will add more stress to an already challenging situation.

    I expect that our gas powered dirt brethren could tell us much about this; no need to reinvent the wheel.

    That's my call.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 06-21-2014 at 08:45 PM.
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  72. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Ebikes are a new market and will be more mainstream than mountain bikes. People, investors and suppliers, who get in early look to make a lot of money. Ebikes will sponsor MTBR. Why do you think that Francois is so well informed; someone has been selling him on this. I have heard all of this info from front line ebike sales promos for the last 18 months....

    That's my call.
    Hey man, leave me out of it. Sponsorship for Mtbr will be miniscule.

    I'm well informed since I try not to presume too much, just a little. Also, it is a real movement in road commuting. For mountain bike, it will be very niche for the next 5 years.

    I did make it to Eurobike last year though and their E-bike options are massive. Biking there is more part of the culture.

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    Yeah, there have been issues around where these ebikes should be allowed to ride. Some feel they do not belong on paths or sharrows but out on the road with cars and motorcycles.

    But they are coming, just as Red Bull did in 2002; a money maker, challenging extant values, not to be denied. This is why it is important to be clear on how they are embraced by regulation, not mtb opinion.
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  74. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike View Post
    Yeah, there have been issues around where these ebikes should be allowed to ride. Some feel they do not belong on paths or sharrows but out on the road with cars and motorcycles.
    I have no issues with them on paved bike paths, and wouldn't bat en eye sharing the path or road with one. My issue is specifically areas where motorized traffic is banned.
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  75. #175
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    I picked up a used eBike to see how much power is needed. I knew the first purchase would be a learning lesson, go for a cheap lesson.

    EVC 500W eBike
    Lead acid batteries
    Basically the Model T of ebikes.
    Fun to ride up hills. Would get beaten to death on any trail.
    Once the battery is deal, it is like a sled with flat tires.

    Not my bike, but mine looks like it.
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  76. #176
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    The DMV limits ebikes to 1000w. Then they are motor driven cycles.

    On the trails, if it looks like a mtn bike with a thermos and a drum brake, it probably is OK. If it looks like a motorcycle, it probably should be ridden where motorcycles are allowed.

    LOWEST LIFE FORM RULE: We have some people with no self control or sense of fair play. If you want to cater the the lowest life form rule, then banning ebikes and 8" suspension bikes from many multi use trails would make sense.

    Too bad people who are stealthy and responsible will get caught in the crossfire.

    The ideal spot for e-assist is from Terra Linda to the 680 trail, which is a steep climb.

  77. #177
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    It's saddening to say, but within my experience and understanding as an advocate and trail builder I cannot see ebikes being net positive as far as future access goes.
    If anything I could see this being helpful to the motorized group as a way of minimizing their impact to trails (particularly backcountry). Minimizing as far as tread inpact, noise, emissions... But I cannot see people who ride motorcycles rushing towards what would be effectively a backwards move in performance in their ride experience.
    But I digress. The old addage "earn your turns" aside, the fact remains that if ebikes gain popularity and are lumped within our user group it will provide more of a burdensome challenge than a boon. We for years had been lumped together in planning by the forest service alongside moto's, and only recently have had separation. So this does nothing but blur this delineation. And if you are unaware of the struggles of the motorized user-group just spend a moment wading thru one of their forums to get a taste, concerning their shrinking access over the years.
    .~...|\
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  78. #178
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    I have:
    street motorcycles
    dirt motorcycles
    mtn bikes
    electric zappy scooter
    and now... ebike

    I pretty much know the right tool for the job, where things do and don't belong.

    I bought the electric bike mainly due to my son most likely never being able to drive. (Long story) I want to extend his range.

    My friend is raising his son riding an Oset electric trials bike. They have bicycles for multi use paths.

  79. #179
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevXR View Post
    I picked up a used eBike to see how much power is needed. I knew the first purchase would be a learning lesson, go for a cheap lesson.

    EVC 500W eBike
    Lead acid batteries
    Basically the Model T of ebikes.
    Fun to ride up hills. Would get beaten to death on any trail.
    Once the battery is deal, it is like a sled with flat tires.

    Not my bike, but mine looks like it.
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    Cool moped!

  80. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS Hack View Post
    Cool moped!
    Cool e-moped.
    These bikes are like crack if you're not ultra fit and aren't the KOM type.

    I need to make a repair, but if you're in the San Rafael area, PM me for a test ride. This really is Model T level.

    (Evil thought, wouldn't it be fun to take an ebike and bust a few KOM records. Not for bragging rights, to get people to calm the F down. Not run over people or get killed.)

  81. #181
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    >Evil thought, wouldn't it be fun to take an ebike and bust a few KOM records

    You don't even need to buy an e-bike, there is software to speed you up.

    See: DigitalEPO.com

  82. #182
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Some dbag came up behind me on an ebike while I was riding uphill at paradise Royale. Damn near running me over as I fell to the side trying to save my keester. He did the same thing to my two other buds I was riding with. My opinion of the things are pretty set after that experience. I don't care what the power rating is... It had a motor it doesn't belong on "non-motorized" trails period. I'm not against motorized recreation, I have ridden dirt bikes my whole life and I race an off-road buggy. IMO these will do nothing good for existing multi-use/Mtb only trails. Nothing.
    I hope you have a big trunk... cause I'm gonna put my bike in it!

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    We can't all take the blame for a few dbag mtb'ers, why should ebikes as a whole get a bad rep from this incident?
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    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?

    Because the reality is the few always ruin it for the many regardless of what the topic is.
    I hope you have a big trunk... cause I'm gonna put my bike in it!

  85. #185
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    loving this thread

    I am loving this thread. Given my injury I can't yet ride the ebike on the bike on the dirt. Having ridden mtn bikes, road bikes and dirt bikes for 25 years I am pretty skeptical that this crop of ebikes can do much on a serious trail like I used to ride. The 50 weight alone with pretty poor suspension makes it tough to think it could even handle most trails around here.

    On a side note don't take Levaquain or Cipro, I could ride 5 hours one day and not walk the next... from one dose. The pain is so absurd it makes the tonsillectomy I got for my 40th look like childs play.

    I hope to get back on a real bike as soon as I can, but for now the ebike is keeping me alive. I really want a 140 fs that weighs 25 lbs but this works for now.

    My bike is is an Emotion 650 Neo, the components are a total joke for $4k at 350 watts I don't think it will go up a dirt hill without a heafty amount of pedaling. After nine months of hell I can do a max of 20 min on a trainer about about 65 rpms and 65 watts. Even will full power on an ebike that's less wattage than a super fit rider can do on a bike that weighs half as much (or less).

    In principal I understand how they shouldn't be allowed on some trails. That being said I don't think trail damage or noise is the issue. I know a number of really good riders and racers that will put way more damage down on a trail than 99% of the population on an ebike can do.

    For now it's not a threat, as technology, weight and batteries get better it could become a problem. Nothing like a proper moto though. I have had 450's, 250's, 400's, 320's and now a 350 I can only look at. I never ride on mtn bike trails period. That being said I live in Tahoe where there are great legal moto trails.

    Anyway, keep the positive and negative comments coming. I only ask that you think about what you would do if one day you could do a 5-10 hour ride and the next day your couldn't walk. I am pretty sure you would go with the only viable option, it's still a bike, it still takes pedaling and you get to get out and start getting your life back. I would give up everything save my wife to be healthy again. There is lots of dirt out there, once I would get off the beaten path I would rarely see another rider out there. On an all day ride up the south yuba 8 hours plus you would only see an rattle snake a few tics and that's about it. The bottom line is biking is my favorite thing in the world and I will do whatever I can just to taste it again.

  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by abeckstead View Post
    Some dbag came up behind me on an ebike while I was riding uphill at paradise Royale. Damn near running me over as I fell to the side trying to save my keester.
    I felt the same when hundred riders passed me at Boggs 8hr. They had no motors though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truckeemtb View Post
    I am pretty skeptical that this crop of ebikes can do much on a serious trail like I used to ride. The 50 weight alone with pretty poor suspension makes it tough to think it could even handle most trails around here.
    Ion 16 e-boxx, 30lb frame with e-drive.. But all this is first generation technology still.

    Pedal-Assisted bike spotted at Boggs - thoughts?-01_11.jpg

  87. #187
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    G-bikes are already...

    ...a problem. (For trail access issues in regards to damaging trails) Everybody is riding a g-bike when heading downhill

    For sake of conversation a milk-toast 1000W output e-bike might be able to top out at 30 mph on a good day (proper gearing, flat road, etc, etc)

    Check out the kinetic energy of a bike/rider heading DH at 30 mph (only takes a 8% downgrade); a 170# rider on a 30# bike has right around 8.16 kJ of energy. Or about 6000 foot pounds force for you macho men who like to think in terms of ballistics; well over the energy of a .30-06.

    (Not to brag but being a bit on the heavy side I approach the energy of a .50 cal BMG when I hit 40 mph)

    Any wonder why braking bumps appear? Why skid kiddies are such a problem? (yeah just blame it on the dry conditions)

    I don't want to see them on trails either but the DMV-approved e-bikes won't be damaging the trails any more than a skid kiddie on a regular bike.

    Find a better reason to eliminate the e-bikes.

    Food for thought.
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  88. #188
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    The reality is batteries are still not that efficient. Even the latest.

    Ebikes with powerful motors:
    • Will have the duration of a Saturn V rocket Or
    • Will be weighed down with massive battery packs.


    You can't disguise them. It's like putting a V8 in a motorcycle. More power, but big bulky and thirsty.

    eBikes that go fast on the flats are not the same as ebikes that climb well. Don't get in a tizzy about a road bike that can hit 50 mph, which is the Holy Grail for road ebike MPH. Every newbie wants to hit 50 mph. Experienced builders explain reality. Lots of batteries and money to go 50. About 10 million posts on ebikes are here. Endless-sphere.com • Index page

    My e-moped has a 500w hub motor and can barely hit 18 mph on flat ground.

    This is the most efficient system and probably the future. A 250w motor is hooked into the drive train. Using the gears with the electric motor will help, but it won't be a 35 hp motocross motorcycle. CUBE REACTION HYBRID Pro 29

    Again, if it looks like a mtn bike with a thermos, it probably won't be roosting anyone or freaking out people. And it weighs 45 lbs, so if you like single tracks, an old Schwinn Beach Cruiser is light in comparison.


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  89. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post

    I don't want to see them on trails either but the DMV-approved e-bikes won't be damaging the trails any more than a skid kiddie on a regular bike.

    Find a better reason to eliminate the e-bikes.

    Food for thought.
    I think that the frank statement reveals something central to this thread.

    As to marketing...

    A friend of mine ran into a notable NorCal IMBA elder, one of their founders and a founder of prominent local advocacy group, riding a pedal-assist bike on Tam. I had spoken with this same gentleman last year and he told me he was enjoying the road as it was easier on him.

    Road.

    I know, I know. I have umpteen thousand road miles and dozens of Centuries under my belt. But road? Not my favorite choice. I just turned my carbon road bike into a city attack vehicle, like a 19 lb. rigid HT with slicks....

    The 30-40 year olds (I take a general age) who started the advocacy movement in 1986 are crowding 70 years of age. Many have been riding all these years. As age and its effects reveal themselves how many of these advocates for mountain bike access are just going to lay down their helmets and flat-out quit their forays into the hills? They have been struggling with hiker and horsey hater-type folks all these years.

    (FWIW at 62 I just gave up my classic steel ht for a full suss carbon wonder; aahh, mo' bettah'!)

    Who is going to tell them they can't ride the trails? What do you think the reaction might be.

    Francois suggests that bike mtb is 5 years down the road. For advocates 5 years is a blink.

    Just saying'...
    I don't rattle.

  90. #190
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    Speaking of Mt Tam. Local governments fear the ADA.
    If you're handicapped, as in wheelchair bound, anything goes.

    However, some people with illnesses, such as Barrs-Epstien or Lyme disease are considered handicapped. They look normal, but have little endurance.

  91. #191
    Delirious Tuck
    Reputation: thefriar's Avatar
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    If it has a motor. Its not for non-motorized trails.

    Its that simple.

    Until the ebike industry & user group perform the research, jury is out on impact.

    If you interface with land managers and they say no e-bikes or no bikes period, how do you push that discussion? Serious question.

    You'd be willing to give up access to keep ebikes in the mix? Its tough enough keeping us in the mix as it is.

  92. #192
    It's about showing up.
    Reputation: Berkeley Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pliebenberg View Post

    The only e-bikes with the "get out of jail free card" are the ones operated by the legitimately handicapped. And those power restrictions may not be applicable this case (except in Federal Wilderness Areas).

    Just like the only folks who can buy marijuana are those who need it for medicinal purposes?

    Dr, Dr, my arm hurts when I do this. I need a script for maryjane!

    Dr, Dr, I have lost my ability to ride uphill and into the scenic areas; I am disabled....
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 06-24-2014 at 02:12 PM.
    I don't rattle.

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