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  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post
    $200 million?!? Seriously???
    That was the number on day 1 and they keep re-using that number in all the news coverage.

    On day 1, my number was $1 billion after I found out that spillway is the width and length of 6 football fields, with difficult access.

    I think they spent $200 million already doing emergency work for the last couple months.

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  2. #502
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    It'll be a Billion, easy. Plus they're now saying there's no way it will be completed before next winter, so there will need to be some mitigation to keep it from worsening before they can get back to it next spring.
    Let's kick ass!

  3. #503
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    It appears as though publicity had an effect:

    OROVILLE*

    California’s top water official said Thursday he’s considering releasing redacted copies of safety and progress reports at the troubled Oroville Dam after his office had tried to keep them secret because of terrorism concerns.

    Bill Croyle, the acting director of the Department of Water Resources, told reporters that his staff met for several hours Thursday with Butte County Sheriff Kory Honea to discuss which parts of the documents should be kept secret and which to release.

    He defended the need to keep sensitive material in the documents secret, but said he’s considering releasing versions of records with portions redacted, or blacked out, to meet potential security concerns.

    “The information that’s appropriate to push out, we’ll push out,” he said.

    Croyle’s announcement comes two days after The Sacramento Bee reported that state officials had*refused to release*certain dam inspection reports and other records, citing federal regulations designed to thwart terrorist attacks. In addition, Croyle said last week that he wouldn’t release documents related to the bidding on the repair work at Oroville Dam’s battered spillway.


    Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/state/cal...#storylink=cpy

    Maybe there is hope for night riding in CA. I kid.



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  4. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Going way back in politics the Brown dynasty had much invested in California's water infrastructure (read the before-mentioned "Cadillac Desert") and the current Brown doesn't want a stain on the legacy.
    *Like anyone's surprised by this? This is Jerry-Mandering Brown we're referring to.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Burns View Post
    It appears as though publicity had an effect:

    OROVILLE*

    California’s top water official said Thursday he’s considering releasing redacted copies of safety and progress reports at the troubled Oroville Dam after his office had tried to keep them secret because of terrorism concerns.
    Not gonna be the least bit surprised when this plays out like the release of intelligence reports from the 70's and 80's. It'll be a 25 year blanket over the entire thing.

  5. #505
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    This relates to the drought thread also, good solid and informational, if you're the tinfoil hat type: Water & Power: A California Heist - National Geographic Channel

  6. #506
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    Press briefing yesterday.

    https://www.facebook.com/CADWR/video...type=2&theater

    - All Time rain this year!!!

    - turn on spillway to 35,000 cfs

    - pick a contractor this week

    - fix one of the turbines in the power plant.
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  7. #507
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    This will probably be my last post on this topic for a long time.

    Last week an independent study came out and determined the cause of the spillway failure was from drain pipes inside the spillway. Aerial views before the structural failure became publicly evident reveal a pattern of horizontal ladder-like cracks in a jagged herring-bone type pattern. It is along one of these that the actual breach formed. Contributing to this was the encroachment of vegetation. Then, it is concluded that the original design criteria was satisfied by the construction, but that the original design was not robust enough.

    At the same time a contractor bid was selected.

    Posts here have returned to a drought.

    Time to ride.



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  8. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Burns View Post

    Then, it is concluded that the original design criteria was satisfied by the construction, but that the original design was not robust enough.

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    This of course is bull$hit cover-up; the original design criteria clearly called for the spillway to be constructed on rock and where dirt was encountered it was to be removed down to rock and back-filled with more concrete.

    BTW the photos taken immediately after the first failure show the drains in apparently good working order.
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  9. #509
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    What went wrong at Oroville? Congressional Democrats demand answers

    BY DALE KASLER

    dkasler@sacbee.com

    Citing the near disaster at Oroville Dam, a group of congressional Democrats is pushing the government’s watchdog agency to investigate federal oversight of dam safety regulations.

    The group, including Rep. Doris Matsui of Sacramento and five other Californians, called on the Government Accountability Office to look into the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission’s handling of the licensing of major dams.

    The February crisis at Oroville “raises questions about deficiencies in FERC’s safety program and concerns over the potential for severe property damage, injury and even possible loss of life,” the group said in a letter released Wednesday.

    Separately, the California state Senate Natural Resources and Water Committee will hold an oversight hearing on Oroville next Tuesday. The hearing comes as elected officials push the state Department of Water Resources to release more information about the Oroville investigation and repairs. DWR has sealed several key documents,*citing security concerns.

    The congressional Democrats are focused mainly on FERC’s decision to brush aside calls, made by a*coalition of environmentalists*from 2003 to 2005, for an order requiring the California Department of Water Resources to line Oroville’s emergency spillway with concrete. Although DWR runs the dam, FERC licenses it because of its hydroelectric plant.


    Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/state/cal...#storylink=cpy


    My last post was a deliberate troll. First one ever.


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  10. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Burns View Post

    My last post was a deliberate troll. First one ever.


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    Had me fooled!

    Didja see this sort of related (a dam anyway):

    Major new reservoir could be built in Santa Clara County

    This is the one that might flood some of Henry W Coe SP.
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  11. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Had me fooled!

    Didja see this sort of related (a dam anyway):

    Major new reservoir could be built in Santa Clara County

    This is the one that might flood some of Henry W Coe SP.
    Very interesting and as the article acknowledges, sure to stir up controversy.

    I have never seen the proposed dam and reservoir site in person. It would be tempting if some decent single track around the reservoir connecting to HW Coe were part of the plan.

    It might make Bell Station more of a destination than it is today if it is built.



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  12. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Didja see this sort of related (a dam anyway):

    Major new reservoir could be built in Santa Clara County

    This is the one that might flood some of Henry W Coe SP.
    The old Advocates for Coe Park website had depictions of the possible reservoirs in the 2002 plans:



    Take a trip back in the Wayback Machine to 2002 to read about it:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20030215...advocates.org/

    I recall that Bob Patrie created this webpage.

    ///Charlie

  13. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyline35 View Post
    The old Advocates for Coe Park website had depictions of the possible reservoirs in the 2002 plans:


    Take a trip back in the Wayback Machine to 2002 to read about it:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20030215...advocates.org/

    I recall that Bob Patrie created this webpage.

    ///Charlie
    Thanks for sharing that Charlie.

  14. #514
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    looks like Kiewit won the contract. oh-boy

    good luck to the Department..
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  15. #515
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    Apparently there are cracks in the dam itself (not the spillway).

    https://shastalantern.net/2017/03/or...-since-2014/6/

  16. #516
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    The news seeping out of the Oroville Dam isn't good. The revelation of a cracked water retaining concrete block and suspect aging anchor tendons tend to indicate that a thorough repair of Oroville Dam requires more than just a new spillway.

    http://www.catholic.org/news/green/story.php?id=74411

    "CA Division of Safety of Dams 2016 Inspection report reveals that critical structural support post-tensioned steel rods in the concrete pillars at the Radial Trunnion Gates of the Spillway were tested, due to their nearing their end of a 50 year life.* Although the 2016 corrosion test results deemed "satisfactory", a March 22 DWR Project Safety Compliance Report now places doubt on up to 240 critical support steel rods from DWR's report - "Completion of Follow-Up Radial Gate Structural Inspection, Gates Nos. 3, 4, 5, 6, & 7".* Why now?* Why CEII 'Secret' status?"

    https://shastalantern.net/2017/03/or...-since-2014/6/



    "According to the article, during 1960s construction, a 900 foot long and 120 foot high concrete block wall was built on the dam’s rock foundation as a water barrier. But the “thrust” pressure as a sloping dirt wall was piled up to a height of 770 feet, caused rotation in the concrete barrier wall. As a result, longitudinal cracking developed in the top 50 feet of the barrier block wall, which was only made of unreinforced concrete.

    With “block and longitudinal cracking with openings of several inches,” the barrier wall cracks and joints were supposedly sealed by “injection of cement grout.” Instrumentation at the time supposedly showed that the remedy was “successful.”"



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  17. #517
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    And all the public knows is that:

    DWR's spokeswoman Lauren Bisnett has cited federal dam-security regulations in declining interview requests by The Sacramento Bee

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    Trinity County's huge reservoir has arrived into the crosshairs.

    Happily I have been cycling up in the area, and I can report that the area has that wonderful removed and remote atmosphere the mountain biker typically cherishes.

    TRINITY DAM*

    Deep in the Trinity Alps, 130 miles northwest of the troubled Oroville Dam, local officials are raising alarms about another earthen dam with documented weaknesses and limited capacity for releasing the water that has poured in from storms and melting snow.

    Trinity Lake, the state’s third-largest reservoir, was filled to 97 percent of its storage capacity last week, and a snowpack estimated at 150 percent of normal still looms over the watershed.

    If the reservoir were to overtop the dam, the results would be catastrophic, said Keith Groves, a Trinity County supervisor representing the district that includes Trinity Dam.


    Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/art...#storylink=cpy


    From the Wikipedia for Trinity Lake:


    Trinity Lake, previously called*Clair Engle Lake, is an*artificial lake*on the*Trinity River*formed by the*Trinity Dam*and located in*Trinity County, California. The dam was built by the*U.S. Bureau of Reclamation. The lake's capacity is 2,447,650*acre·ft (3,019,130*dam3), making it one of the largest reservoirs in*California. The lake's surface is at 2,370*ft (720*m) above MSL. Trinity Lake captures and stores water for the*Central Valley Project, which provides the*Central Valley*with water for*irrigation*and produces*hydroelectric*power. This lake is known for its many small arms, glassy inlets, and great water-skiing conditions


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  19. #519
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    The latest evaluation confirms Pliebenberg's assessment. There was rotten rock under the spillway which seems to me to have been conveniently overlooked.

    The evaluation falls short with the omission of any analysis or recognition of bureaucratic inefficiency.

    Rot in rock and administration undermined the spillway.

    Quote:

    "In a report released Wednesday, engineers assigned to investigate the February failure of Oroville Dam’s main spillway cited a variety of flaws in the 3,000-foot-long structure, including variations in the thickness of the concrete slabs, poor drainage beneath the spillway, improperly filled cracks and signs of inadequate maintenance."

    Sacramento Bee 05112017



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  20. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Burns View Post
    The latest evaluation confirms Pliebenberg's assessment. There was rotten rock under the spillway which seems to me to have been conveniently overlooked.

    The evaluation falls short with the omission of any analysis or recognition of bureaucratic inefficiency.

    Rot in rock and administration undermined the spillway.

    Quote:

    "In a report released Wednesday, engineers assigned to investigate the February failure of Oroville Dam’s main spillway cited a variety of flaws in the 3,000-foot-long structure, including variations in the thickness of the concrete slabs, poor drainage beneath the spillway, improperly filled cracks and signs of inadequate maintenance."

    Sacramento Bee 05112017



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    Pliebenberg aka Moe Ped.

    These are dangerous times we're living in; a blatant cover-up by a bureaucracy under the guise of "National Security".

    Some truth to the NS issue; an open discussion of the flaws in a structure as critical as a dam would make it easier for terrorists to target the weak spots.

    But much larger is that the Oroville Dam was not built to specification and the whole system that profited by cutting corners is still in place today. An embarrassment to the bureaucracy but also evidence of conspiracies certainly criminal. This matter spans both political policies.

    Another interesting visual that surfaced here was the "newsreel" of the dam under construction; it showed workers using fire hoses to blast softer material from the bedrock in preparation of building the concrete core of the dam. Ostensibly this would have been done beneath the spillway also, haven't seen any footage of that.

    Maybe they used garden hoses?
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  21. #521
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    DWR recently released this video; it shows the season shut down so they can get on with the repair work.

    A massive amount of earthwork has already been done:


    I wonder how many drones were "lost" making these vids?
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  22. #522
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    I wonder if they consider reinforcing the new water channel in case the spillway breaks again.

  23. #523
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    This guy has great updates
    https://www.youtube.com/user/blancolirio

  24. #524
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    I have been checking out the blancolirio channel as well. Really good overview of the situation as well as some cool views from his small WW2 era plane. The guy also rides motorcycles and has some videos on trail work in Nevada City and Downieville.

  25. #525
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    The blue pop-up canopy in one of the views gives scale to how HUUUUGE the spillway is:

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  26. #526
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    Angle 5 gets my top vote.
    Good friction shifting is getting hard to find nowadays....

  27. #527
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    I liked Angle 5 the best!
    Let's kick ass!

  28. #528
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    They're moving right along!

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  29. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekbob View Post
    I have been checking out the blancolirio channel as well. Really good overview of the situation as well as some cool views from his small WW2 era plane. The guy also rides motorcycles and has some videos on trail work in Nevada City and Downieville.

    Juan is a character. Definitely the best source of Oroville progress if you have time to watch.

    We've done some dirtbike riding together. He's also been known to show up at my birthday celebrations at Packsaddle CG and entertain the troupes! A couple of my Absolute & Tonics usually do the trick. :-)

    Hmmm ... OK ... 1st video is in this link since mod note sez only one imbedded video per post ...




    Catfish ...

  30. #530
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    Heard the head guy of Oroville got fired!!
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  31. #531
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    IPA will save America

  32. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
    Without reading the article yet, green is a sign of seepage. No bueno for a dam.

  33. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by fc View Post
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  34. #534
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    This video shows them working at twilight to fill up the gap eroded down to bedrock with some very dry-mixed concrete.



    Of course; by specification this how the spillway should have built in the first place. (Soil removed down to bedrock; back-filled with concrete back to grade)

    To this I'll add that IMHO the conservative media is too stupid to pick up on this gem and the liberal media is afraid of upsetting the Brown dynasty. Sssssshh...Quiet!
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  35. #535
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    Update... big money on the big race.

    Oroville Dam: Six months after disaster, a race to repair

    "Today, what could have been ground zero for America’s worst dam disaster is now a hotbed of construction activity. Hundreds of construction workers are laboring 20 hours a day, six days a week with huge dump trucks, cranes, excavators, bulldozers, concrete pumps and other equipment to demolish and rebuild the 3,000-foot-long main spillway — a massive chute as wide as 15 lanes of freeway– by Nov. 1, before the next winter rain season begins anew." ...
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  36. #536
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    Funny I remember rain starting to get heavy in October last year...

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    I think it's just a target date. I can't find a reference for it, but every storm related project I've ever worked on the "official" rainy season for Norcal was Oct 1st through May 30th. Besides even if we have historic rain they won't need to use the spillway for awhile. I don't think they even started releasing until Februaryish last year.

  38. #538
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    Ever since BStrummin posted the link to that book with construction details back in Feb 2016 it's been obvious what was wrong and it doesn't rocket scientists or UCB engineers to see the plainly obvious. A construction worker with a HS diploma and a C or better in English would be able to pick up on it.

    I said it before and I'll say it again: Coverup? Damn straight; Gov Jerry is trying to keep the legacy of his daddy squeaky clean. (Nothing to do with Homeland Security)

    From today's news article:

    "A separate investigation by engineers at UC Berkeley concluded that construction workers laboring for former Gov. Pat Brown 50 years ago cut corners, building the main spillway on weak rock that should have been excavated, then constructing the structure as thin as four inches in some places and failing to anchor or reinforce it properly.

    Those dangerous shortcomings were compounded, the Berkeley report found, by trees that were allowed to grow along the spillway walls, clogging its drainage pipes with their roots, and an attitude of “patch and pray” from Department of Water Resources crews when the main spillway repeatedly developed cracks in recent decades.

    “It’s not that complicated,” said engineer Bob Bea, founder of UC Berkeley’s Center for Catastrophic Risk Management “It’s a tragedy of neglect. It was poorly built and poorly maintained.”"
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    While everything does indicate shoddy construction, can you imagine if they came to us taxpayers five years ago and said "We need to replace the spillway at Oroville, which hasn't been used in a decade (?) because we're in a drought, and it's going to cost $500 million." NOBODY would have gone for that. It sucks but I don't think there's a lot of value in spending a whole lot of time pointing fingers at bad construction practices 60 years ago. Other than learning from the mistakes.

  40. #540
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    I believe the Oroville Dam is just another example of our failing infrastructure and it won't be the last. Sure, shoddy construction is clearly to blame, but "deferred maintenance" will show us time and time again what we already know and continue to ignore.
    Let's kick ass!

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    building a project after it fails is vastly different that doing a maintenance job before it fails.

    it wouldnt have cost $500 mil to retrofit.

    fast good or cheap..you only get to pick two. (i might have messed that up)
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  42. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by BStrummin View Post
    While everything does indicate shoddy construction, can you imagine if they came to us taxpayers five years ago and said "We need to replace the spillway at Oroville, which hasn't been used in a decade (?) because we're in a drought, and it's going to cost $500 million." NOBODY would have gone for that. It sucks but I don't think there's a lot of value in spending a whole lot of time pointing fingers at bad construction practices 60 years ago. Other than learning from the mistakes.
    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    I believe the Oroville Dam is just another example of our failing infrastructure and it won't be the last. Sure, shoddy construction is clearly to blame, but "deferred maintenance" will show us time and time again what we already know and continue to ignore.
    It only took 540 posts to get there but finally some simple common sense answers instead of a bunch of people who know everything pointing fingers at anybody and everything from 60 years ago. People make statements like corners aren't still being cut every day with people getting kickbacks in one way or another.
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  43. #543
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    The value in pointing fingers is that the dynasties that profited from "shoddy construction" are still around and shouldn't be "let off the hook" just because the statute of limitations has come into play.

    Jerry talkin' 'bout you.
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  44. #544
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    Here's the ticking time bomb...

    During the great infrastructure expansion after WW2 and through the Eisenhower administration, the freeways, bridges, tunnels, dams, etc. were designed and built with an expected life span of between 50 and 75 years (roughly). The thought was that technology would continue to improve and we would routinely upgrade and/or replace these structures as necessary. Instead, we have taken a "if it aint broke, don't fix it" approach and then cut budgets to minimize monitoring of the degradation. We're at the point where it is failing at an increased rate because it's all at or near the end of its expected service life.

    Unless we prioritize and make a concerted effort to replace, we're just going to see more of the same.
    Let's kick ass!

  45. #545
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    I do like their videos; I hadn't even noticed that they started adding music tracks (from around the beginning of July):

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  46. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckha62 View Post
    Here's the ticking time bomb...

    During the great infrastructure expansion after WW2 and through the Eisenhower administration, the freeways, bridges, tunnels, dams, etc. were designed and built with an expected life span of between 50 and 75 years (roughly). The thought was that technology would continue to improve and we would routinely upgrade and/or replace these structures as necessary. Instead, we have taken a "if it aint broke, don't fix it" approach and then cut budgets to minimize monitoring of the degradation. We're at the point where it is failing at an increased rate because it's all at or near the end of its expected service life.

    Unless we prioritize and make a concerted effort to replace, we're just going to see more of the same.
    While trying not to derail the thread, this thought process is how my work operates. Maintenance does not exist. Run it til it fails, then do the minimum to patch it back up and start producing again. I think it is a part of the American culture now.

    For the record, we make carbon fiber nacelles for airliners like the 787 and A350. Not exactly cheap stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewalk View Post
    While trying not to derail the thread, this thought process is how my work operates. Maintenance does not exist. Run it til it fails, then do the minimum to patch it back up and start producing again. I think it is a part of the American culture now.
    And why 'merica is no longer great.

    For the record, we make carbon fiber nacelles for airliners like the 787 and A350. Not exactly cheap stuff.
    Out of curiosity do those parts have a finite service life? "X" number of landings or "X" number of flight hours?

    If civil engineering has as good a grasp on service life as does aeronautical engineering the construction industry certainly doesn't let it be known.

    I've seen a lot of "50 year" highways begin to fall apart after 10 years. Yeah blame it on trucks as if truck traffic wasn't to be expected.

    (See my earlier post on the cheats the suppliers of concrete for highways in the Sacramento area were using in the 1970s)

    Going perhaps even further OT a goodly number of my parent's generation really believed in the Rapture; the Second Coming was going to be not too far after Y2K so whether things were built to really last it just didn't matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    And why 'merica is no longer great.
    I hear a wall will fix that...

    Plenty of millennials to blame for all this stuff, let's just stick to blaming them, ok?
    (I'm X)

    Quote Originally Posted by Moe Ped View Post
    Out of...
    I actually don't know, it I was referring to the manufacturing equipment. The factory is falling apart, and the machines don't stop for maintenance except to give the appearance of a maintenance program.

    As the union guys don't actually want to work, and management doesn't want to stop production, it's a win/win or lose/lose, depending on how you look at it. I personally like replacing bearings on the 8000 pound machine BEFORE they fail and gouge the guide rails. But the union guys would prefer to skip it this week since they still look okay, and management is cool with that.

    I could do all kinds of bitching about my union, but I digress. They beat the "give a shit", out of me, and management decided not to give me reason to fight back. So I have joined the ranks of the lazy, and pour all my effort into cycling (at 20+ hours a week ).

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